DrummaBoy:

There is nothing in those scripture that says "grace teaches us to remain saved". That is the doctrine of men.

1. v.11: God's grace brings salvation and that salvation is free and accessible by all men.

2. v.12: It teaches us to live godly lives. Not to "remain saved". Not to keep the laws of Moses. Not to tithe. To deny worldly lust: lust of the flesh, eye and pride of life. Lust so entrenched in our hearts that only God can show them to us and help us overcome them. But as long as we are keeping certain codes of the law, we will forever be blinded by our self righteousness to know how to live the godly living the grace of God teaches us.

3. v.13: Christ coming is a blessed hope. It is the hope of our calling. It is not whether or not he is coming for us; it is that he is coming and as long as some are not sure whether they will saved, what is the worth in looking out for a blessed hope.

4. v.14: Christ redeems; Christ purifies; and Christ produces a people zealous for good works. It is all the doing of Christ. It is the working of His grace. THIS IS THE GRACE OF GOD THAT HAS BEEN REVEALED TO MEN!!!

so what happens if the saved ones do not :

- deny ungodliness
- deny worldly lusts
- live soberly or righteously or godly, in this present world


Will they still be saved ?

frosbel: Okay, so he made billions of
people knowing in advance that
he will destroy 95% of them ,
right ? But to make matters
worse, your destruction is not
actually destruction but eternal
torment.
So lets recap on your logic :
- God makes billions of humans
who never chose to be here on
their own volition
- He damns almost all of them
- sends them to an eternal place
of torment.
- only a very few are saved
May I ask what kind of freak you
are serving ?

Genesis 6:5-6
New International Version (NIV)
5 The LORD saw how great the
wickedness of the human race had
become on the earth, and that
every inclination of the thoughts of
the human heart was only evil all
the time. 6 The LORD regretted that
he had made human beings on the
earth, and his heart was deeply
troubled.

I believe he will also say that our loving Father is pretending here since He is the engineer that designed their acts of immorality according to His will.

That the righteous judgement of our God over sodom and Gomorah is mere pretence, Gen 18:20-33?

^^^


precisely my point, God destroys people not because he predestined them to be destroyed but because they aligned their wills with that of Satan.

The problem with our brother's theology especially when we add the idea of a never ending fire, is that it makes God the biggest of monsters, , because he makes them even though he knows they will be damned in advance.

This is not the truth and is a lie from HELL.

frosbel:


so what happens if the saved ones do not :

- deny ungodliness
- deny worldly lusts
- live soberly or righteously or godly, in this present world


Will they still be saved ?

What was God's testimony of David after he had committed adultery, lied and murdered?

22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will - Acts 13

God said he is a man after his heart; he will fulfill His will.

What about Abraham and all his mistakes? Sleeping with his housemaid; lying; shedding blood at war; etc. This is what God said of him:

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. - Genesis 26

What is my point? That the grace of God is revealed so that Christians could live in ungodliness and lust? No. So what are we saying:

1. That the grace of God has revealed God salvation to men. As many as come to faith in Christ Jesus can trust that their salvation is safe, secure and sound. They need not fear loosing it!

2. That grace of God abounds much more than sin. That the effect of sin cannot outweigh the effect of grace. This, however, is no licence to sin. I again refer you to Candour's paper.

3. That the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust.

My point is that we should not turn the list upside down, in making number 3 to be number 1; First things come first. And that is why the epistles of Paul start with clear enunciation of doctrine that portrays the grace of God, before he moves into the practical aspects. When you teach "practical" without clear enunciation of grace, you are no better than a pharisee.

So as for the Christian you, frosbel, think lives in ungodliness and worldly lust: leave him to God who is the judge of all men. God is sufficient to save even such a man and to keep him safe till the end. Like someone had said, quoting Romans 9, in regards to our election and predestination, what we do not know about God is much more than what we know about him.

^^^

reconcile these scripture to your statements :

"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway" - 1 Corinthians 9:27


"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." - Romans 8:13

frosbel: ^^^

reconcile these scripture to your statements :

"But I[b] keep under my body[/b], and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway" - 1 Corinthians 9:27


"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." - Romans 8:13

All of the above is still on the same theme of the grace of God revealed to all men that teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust. We are saying the same thing. I am, however, saying put first things first.

Except of course you teach that a man is saved by his righteousness, Mr frosbel.

DrummaBoy:

All of the above is still on the same theme of the grace of God revealed to all men that teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust. We are saying the same thing. I am, however, saying put first things first.

Except of course you teach that a man is saved by his righteousness, Mr frosbel.

A Man is not and cannot be saved by his own righteousness, but he must remain in and depend on the grace of GOD to be able to live up to expectation.

In other words if he does not continue to depend on the grace of God, or abide in the vine or let the words of Jesus remain in him and obey them, he will fall away, i.e become a castaway.

@frosbel, the answer to your question shows we all need greater understanding.

David acknowledged his sin and repented in sackcloth (David also always inquired of God before making moves), God told Abraham in the very next chapter of the Hagar saga to walk before him and be blameless and told Abraham that it was Sarah that will give him the son because before then God had promised Abraham a son and Abaraham did not believe it would be Sarah that will bear the child.
It was after God affirmed it was Sarah that will bring forth. Genesis 17:15-18.

It is not about falling into sin but continuing in sin even when the truth is known. Imagine an adulterer who says all His righteosnes is Christ's so his works don't matter. We even have Christians who sin now and say they will ask for forgiveness and that is all and yet do the same and still claim all they need is to be forgiven. That is how perveted the world is now.

Every Christian is to live in humble sumbission to God's will and do God's will. Sin is so decietful it keeps people at ease:

Hebrews 3:12-14
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be
hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF WE HOLD the beginning of our confidence stedfast UNTO THE END;

Hebrews 4:1
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Hebrews 10:38-39
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The gospel of the kingdom is balanced, it exhorts, admonishes, comforts, warns and rebukes so we remain aligned to God. When we fall, we run to the throne of grace for MERCY and HELP.

Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
This is the more reason why I said that grace has a dual role, many who stop at just mercy and think they are enjoying what grace is, have not even scratched the surface of what grace is.

In the line with our current discussion, something came to mind:

Genesis 3:11-14
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:


I seperated each verse so we can bear in mind the weight of each. The questions are:

1. If Adam had admitted wrong (instead of indirectly blaming God), since he went against God's command, would we have had a different response from God?

2. God asked Adam why he went against His command, asked Eve why she did what she did, but never asked the serpent. Hmmmmm...why?

This questions are more rhetoric than direct.

@alwaystrue, you raised some interesting scriptures which we all need to go back, study and learn. This posture where we have two groups in the church world :Calvinists and Arminians is the major problem of christendom today. Here is an excerpt i got about these doctrines in Hagins book.

In the 16th century, John Calvin and Jacobus Arminius attended the same institute of learning, but each came out with a different idea. One result is what we call "old school Calvinism," which embraced predestination, or "what is to be will be."

During the time of the famed evangelist Charles Finney, the ministers of that day had been taught Calvinism in the Yale School of Divinity. They believed that if you were predestined to be saved, you would be saved. If you were not predestined to be saved, there was nothing you could do about it. You could join the church and take advantage of its benefits, but God would save you only if it were His will.

Finney was a lawyer. After he finished his education, he began to practice law with a former judge. The judge suggested that Finney join a church because it would help him with business and social contacts. Finney did so. In one of the young people's services, he asked them to pray for him, because he realized he was unsaved and did not know God.

The group was astounded at his request, telling him that if he were predestined to be saved he would be; otherwise, he would be lost.
Finney began to read his Bible. The more he read, the more he was convinced that he could be saved—and everyone else could, too, if they wanted to be. Alone, he sought God and was born again.

He soon became a minister and preached that when God said in His Word "Repent," He meant you could do it. (The Calvinists preached that you could not repent unless God gave you a repenting heart; that you were totally incapable of doing anything yourself.)

Finney preached that if God asked you to do something you couldn't do, then He would be an unjust God—but God is not unjust—and when He said "Believe," He meant you can believe. (The Calvinists, however, felt you could not believe unless God gave you a believing heart.)

Today there are not too many old school Calvinists—their doctrines have been watered down—but now there are "new school Calvinists." "New school Calvinism" is basically the doctrine of eternal security, or "once saved always saved."

I believe in eternal security as long as you stay in Christ. He is able to keep you secure. But just because you are a son of God does not mean you are not a free moral agent. You still have a will of your own, and you can choose to stay in Christ or to forsake Christ altogether.
The Arminian side is not correct, either. They think that when you commit the smallest sin you are immediately lost and need to be saved all over again.

Arminians have the idea that God is like a fellow with a flyswatter—just waiting for a fly to light so he can swat it. They think God is waiting for His children to make just one mistake—and when they do, He is going to swat them!

One man said he believed that if he were to speak harshly to his wife, he would be lost and bound for hell. He believed he would have to get saved all over again. (If that were true, there are some people who have been saved 2,000 or 3,000 times by now!)

Then there are those who believe that God expects us to live above sin. They believe in going on to perfection. I do, too, but I haven't arrived there yet. If we already were perfect, we would not have anything to go on to.

Paul said, "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before" (Phil. 3:13).

When you teach about this subject, someone always believes you are giving people a license to sin. I always say, however, that people do enough sinning without a license!

It is quite obvious that God does not want us to sin: "... these things write I unto you, that ye sin not" (1 John 2:1). It is quite obvious that if we walked completely in the Word and in love, we wouldn't sin. But it is also obvious that none of us have achieved this yet.

culled from The Present-Day Ministry of Jesus Christ by HAGIN.

@Bidam, yes we all need study.
My position remains that I do not believe in 'Once saved, Always saved' but the clause I did not put earlier was 'if people depart or lose hold of the faith'.

We are eternally saved in Christ if, as long as, because we remain, abide, walk, trust and believe Him. If anyone pulls back, God does not have pleasure in him but because of GRACE we have HELP so we can make good use of the OTHER CHANCES we get because of Grace. What now happens if the person dies in the sin despite the chances to use the help of God through grace to overcome? How many people are willing to remain an overcomer through grace?

When Jesus gave us the pattern to pray, he said 'forgive us now our trespasses' (Eph. 4:32) ) for we may err but a contrite and humble heart has the tug of the Spirit to tell him to repent and repentance is to be immediate
'while it is still today'. That is why scriptures say do we go on sinning for grave to abound? God forbid? Many have seared their conscience and keep sinning under false security. That is where those who claim one once saved always saved even with continual sin should have a rethink.

And that is why I asked you to define what part of man enters heaven, spirit or soul as we as we have scriptures that talk about SAVING of our souls.

@Bidam

Thank you for your quote from Hagin. But the truth is that Hagin himself has very little credibility in Christendom (except in Nigeria were the likes of Idhahosa and Oyedepo have succeeded in popularizing his books). It would have done his soul well to own up to plagiarizing the books of E W Kenyon (a one time student of Christian Science and practitioner of New Thoughts religion) before he died; but he didn't and his errors live on beyond him.

Indeed there are extremes in Calvinism as stated in that Hagin piece; it doesn't subtract from the fact that there is some truth in Calvinism. I do not deny having Calvinistic persuasions. I have come across every major teaching in Christendom and Calvinism approximates the most to the apostolic faith.

Now if you feel you can loose your salvation, fine and good; be it unto you according to your faith.

frosbel: ^^^

reconcile these scripture to your statements :

"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway" - 1 Corinthians 9:27


"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." - Romans 8:13

The very words of Jesus:

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 [size=16pt]And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day[/size]. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Pauline gospel:

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. - Romans 3

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. - Romans 4

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. - Romans 5

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. - Romans 8

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or unclothedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8

Apostle Peter's testimony:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Jude:

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen.

It is clear to me that when the subject of our salvation is discussed from the point of view of God, it cannot be lost. However, when it is discussed from the point of view of man, like the scripture you quoted above from 1 Corinthians 9, we get the impression that it can be lost. What does a sensible bible teacher/student do in such a case; he does not base his faith in the word of God on experiences around him; or failing believers around him; or even on himself; because as long as it is based on man, we are bound to fail. He rests his hope in God.

This is the gospel of Jesus Christ. I hope you find the opportunity to visit my blog were I presented a five paper series on the gospel of Christ (I did not mention Calvinism there though).

Bidam: @alwaystrue, you raised some interesting scriptures which we all need to go back, study and learn. This posture where we have two groups in the church world :Calvinists and Arminians is the major problem of christendom today. Here is an excerpt i got about these doctrines in Hagins book.

In the 16th century, John Calvin and Jacobus Arminius attended the same institute of learning, but each came out with a different idea. One result is what we call "old school Calvinism," which embraced predestination, or "what is to be will be."

I hold the above statement in suspect because

1. Calvin (1509-1564) and Arminius (1560-1609) were not contempories and the possibility of attending the same institute of learning is very low.

2. Calvin studied law. But following his conversion, after renouncing Roman Catholicism, was wholly self taught in protestant theology. The only references early protestants of his kind had were tracts coming from Germany written by Martin Luther. John Calvin is said to be the father of the Reformation because he put Protestantism in written theology.

3. This is the account taken from wikipedia of the teachers of Arminius - men who rejected Calvin teachings from day one:

Arminius remained at Leiden from 1576 to 1582. His teachers in theology included Lambertus Danaeus, Johannes Drusius, Guillaume Feuguereius, and Johann Kolmann. Kolmann believed and taught that high Calvinism made God both a tyrant and an executioner. Under the influence of these men, Arminius studied with success and had seeds planted that would begin to develop into a theology that would later compete with the dominant Reformed theology of John Calvin. Arminius began studying under Theodore Beza at Geneva in 1582. He found himself in trouble after using Ramist techniques, familiar to him from his time at Marburg; and he then moved to Basel

There is no credibility in the statement that Calvin and Arminius attended the same institute of learning. It is just not true.

Luke 6v33-34 -And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what THANK have ye? For sinners also do even the same. And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what THANK have ye? For sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

The word 'thanks' there is the greek 'charis' which means GRACE. This passage shows Christ's definition of the attributes of true grace. If you give someone something coz of what the person has done. What GRACE have ye? And if you give someone something coz of what you hope the person will do. What GRACE have ye?

Meaning a gesture must be independent of the recipient's works (past or future) to be considered GRACE, otherwise, its a wage or a loan not a gift. Whatever my works has a say in receiving and retaining IS NOT GRACE.

Romans 11v6 -And if by grace, then is it no more of works, OTHERWISE grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace, otherwise work is no more work.

If there is something I can do besides stop believing in Christ, that can make lose my rigtheousness and the Holy Spirit. Then they were never gifts of grace.

God sure wants us to make use of the gifts of grace (righteousness and the Holy Spirit).

2Cor 6v1 -We then, as workers together with Him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

1Cor 15v10 -But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I labour more abundantly than they all.

God does wants us to make use of the grace He has bestowed upon us. But NOT AS A CONDITION for not losing them, OTHERWISE grace is no more grace. Rigteousness and the Holy Spirit are received and retained by grace through faith

Romans 1v17 -For therein is the righteousness of God revealed FROM FAITH TO FAITH.

Galatians 3v2 -This only would I learn of you, receive ye the Spirit by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith.

We are born of God by faith. 1John 5v1 -Whoesoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. And as long as that faith remains we remain born of Him.

Even my earthly father can't unborn me. He may disown me legally but biologically it is impossible. I don't believe spiritual birth is more fragile than biological birth.

ajayikayod:

Broooooosss, is d angel of death God?

I always lik to pick ds topic from d start by saying ds.
Its clear in d scriptures dt NO ONE, i mean NO ONE in d Old Testaments (OT) has any knowlegde dt there is a being called d devil (Satan). Till Jesus came all d mention of d devil in d scriptures are either thru visions or prophecies. No man hav a definate understandin of who d devil is lik we ahv today.
All actions both evil and good were ascribed to God all thru d OT becos of thr understanding. Even d prophets who thru prophecies and vision hav a glare of d wicked one, they never hav been able to comprehend who he is. Hence u see scriptures lik.

Judges 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem
1 Sam 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things
Even d writer of Genesis never know d devil but only kno him in shadow (the Serpent).
In all dt happened to Job, he never mentioned Satan thru out d book nor knew whether such evil bein exist. He ascribed all d evil to God.
...many more

U and Me kno better now. We kno d Serpent from d beginning is d devil (u cant kno dt from d OT), We kno better than Job, Amos, Isaiah etc.

Whn Jesus came, he showed us who d liar and d murderer,
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.

He showed us whr lying tongues comes from, whr d killer comes from. He latter showed us who d destroyer is.

Christ gav d most striking statement of all age "Its d thief dt comes to steal, kill and destroy", i come to giv life (As d Father will always do) to uncover wat was missing d in OT. D DEVIL.

He was always behind d scene but an active actor.
The Apostles went further to unravell d accuser, Paul called him d holder of d Power of Death.

If our study can go beyond just unveiling d freedom from d Law in OT to unravelling d ignorance d OT had about d devil we will do well to discern d thin line drawn btw d act of God and dt of d devil in d OT.

I love this.

I threw Matthew 7v21-23 open, yesterday evening, with some christians in relation to salvation and losing it. About who those people were that called Jesus lord lord, and did many wonderful works and he said he never knew them.

Some said they were lip-service and unserious believers who didnt live godly lives. Others (and I) were like can a lip-service believer heal the sick and perform miracles with the true power of Christ? Even true christians are hardly doing it. Others said they must have been one time true believers who fell into sin and didn't repent.

Some said if Jesus said he never knew them, then they were never believers. They didnt lose their salvation, they never had it. I seemed to agree with this view but it also raised new questions. Can an unbeliever use the name and power of Christ with results. Or maybe they were simply exorcists using the power of the devil in Jesus' name; and is that possible. It wasn't argumentative but no opinion won per se.

But personally i still believe that IF a true believer can lose his salvation, it will ONLY be through UNBELIEF.

This has been quite an interesting discourse. Thanks to the Lord Jesus Christ who saved us from sin, made us brand new and justified us. Let us work worthy of our calling and remain humble in Him. I have often studied the book of Revelation and seen Jesus loves us so much and has called us to abide in Him, it is left for us to be humble and obedient for even Jesus learnt obedience by the things He suffered. We all have a choice to remain with Christ and overcome using the authority, grace and space to repent that He has given us.
Jesus has power to blot names out of the book of life, of those who defile their garments. The Spirit will always speak, warn, admonish and the sheep will hear, the goats will remain stubborn.

Revelation 3:4-6
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

ayoku777: Luke 6v33-34 -And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what THANK have ye? For sinners also do even the same. And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what THANK have ye? For sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

The word 'thanks' there is the greek 'charis' which means GRACE. This passage shows Christ's definition of the attributes of true grace. If you give someone something coz of what the person has done. What GRACE have ye? And if you give someone something coz of what you hope the person will do. What GRACE have ye?

Meaning a gesture must be independent of the recipient's works (past or future) to be considered GRACE, otherwise, its a wage or a loan not a gift. Whatever my works has a say in receiving and retaining IS NOT GRACE.

Romans 11v6 -And if by grace, then is it no more of works, OTHERWISE grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace, otherwise work is no more work.

If there is something I can do besides stop believing in Christ, that can make lose my rigtheousness and the Holy Spirit. Then they were never gifts of grace.

God sure wants us to make use of the gifts of grace (righteousness and the Holy Spirit).

2Cor 6v1 -We then, as workers together with Him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

1Cor 15v10 -But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I labour more abundantly than they all.

God does wants us to make use of the grace He has bestowed upon us. But NOT AS A CONDITION for not losing them, OTHERWISE grace is no more grace. Rigteousness and the Holy Spirit are received and retained by grace through faith

Romans 1v17 -For therein is the righteousness of God revealed FROM FAITH TO FAITH.

Galatians 3v2 -This only would I learn of you, receive ye the Spirit by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith.

We are born of God by faith. 1John 5v1 -Whoesoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. And as long as that faith remains we remain born of Him.

Even my earthly father can't unborn me. He may disown me legally but biologically it is impossible. I don't believe spiritual birth is more fragile than biological birth.

you this bro, u make me love u more n more with every post. God bless u plenty.

ayoku777: I threw Matthew 7v21-23 open, yesterday evening, with some christians in relation to salvation and losing it. About who those people were that called Jesus lord lord, and did many wonderful works and he said he never knew them.

Some said they were lip-service and unserious believers who didnt live godly lives. Others (and I) were like can a lip-service believer heal the sick and perform miracles with the true power of Christ? Even true christians are hardly doing it. Others said they must have been one time true believers who fell into sin and didn't repent.

Some said if Jesus said he never knew them, then they were never believers. They didnt lose their salvation, they never had it. I seemed to agree with this view but it also raised new questions. Can an unbeliever use the name and power of Christ with results. Or maybe they were simply exorcists using the power of the devil in Jesus' name; and is that possible. It wasn't argumentative but no opinion won per se.

But personally i still believe that IF a true believer can lose his salvation, it will ONLY be through UNBELIEF.

I concur with the bolded,for someone like demas to have departed from Paul and left the Faith is simply due to unbelief.But i quite and fully agree with what sister alwaystrue has said concerning being comfortable with sin which may result to someone losing his/her salvation.It actually deadens your conscience so that you are no more pricked and hence giving rise to unbelief. I know of Christians turned atheist who started well with God and later left the faith.

I know of believers who have prophetic and power gifts and later departed from God by using the gifts to make merchandise of the gospel hence giving heed to familiar and seducing spirits.These is how false prophets arises, even John made a statement that they came out of us because they are not one of us,had it been they were of us they would have stayed with us.

Becaus someone can quote scriptures and flow in God's gifting and power doesn't mean he is still connected to the VINE.He might still be green with leaves but it's just a matter of time before the giftings and anointings becomes corrupted and defiled.

Bidam:

I know of believers who have prophetic and power gifts and later departed from God by using the gifts to make merchandise of the gospel hence giving heed to familiar and seducing spirits. These is how false prophets arises, even John made a statement that they came out of us because they are not one of us,had it been they were of us they would have stayed with us.

"make merchandise of the gospel" ?

That must be most of them.

frosbel:

"make merchandise of the gospel" ?

That must be most of them.

If you have the power to heal and prophesy, i believe you will be among them.

Bidam: But i quite and fully agree with what sister alwaystrue has said concerning being comfortable with sin which may result to someone losing his/her salvation.It actually deadens your conscience so that you are no more pricked and hence giving rise to unbelief.

@Bidam, I am actually coming from a much more deeper angle than what is often termed 'departing from the faith' to become atheist.
Do you realise that people give excuse for sin? Examples?
1. Falsifying records or stealing with the pen (termed embezzlement) is often seen as taking one's share of the national cake in ministries
2. Oh there is nothing wrong in sleeping with a boyfriend or girlfriend, Afterall they plan to marry.
3. There is nothing wrong in marrying someone as a contract arrangement to get some citizenship status then divorce
4. It is not an issue to falsify birth records to get a job
5. 'Nothing wrong in porn, Afterall its not like I am sleeping with them'.
6. The levels people go to get certain desires met.
7. Oh that is the way we do things around here

All I mentioned above (a tip of the iceberg) are physical acts but borne out of unbelief...usually the first time one wants to try it, the tug will be serious by the spirit but as time goes on they lose the conscience and the heart gets hardened.
What I need us to understand is that unbelief is not just atheism. It has started in the heart of the Christian way before then until the heart is finally deadened.

I see unbelief as going against the word of God, or trying to walk around it with excuses and defiance in other cases. It is beyond sinning, knowing one has sinned, being convicted and repenting...it is more advanced and that is the deceitfulness of sin.

I will find time o discuss the concept of Mental Attitude Sins and I will show that those types of sins originate from the heart and sins they are not overtly obvious sins we many times do not recognize them. The people most guilty of these sins are religious people who have succeeded in ridding themselves of the kind of sins @Alwaystrue listed above but are grqvely guilty of this worst kinf of sin. I hope to show that when we all stand before the awesome holiness of God non of righteousness will be suffifient. It is my prayet that we would have the Righteousness of Another with whiich any human can come before the presence if God. Mental Attitude Sins... https://www.nairaland.com/1523615/god-told-me-tell/14#19927275

Bidam: If you have the power to heal and prophesy, i believe you will be among them.

Only God has Power and this Power is available to ALL believers not just some self acclaimed gurus.

Rev 3:14-18
To the Church in Laodicea
14 "To the angel of the church in
Laodicea write: These are the
words of the Amen, the faithful and
true witness, the ruler of God's
creation. 15 I know your deeds,
that you are neither cold nor hot. I
wish you were either one or the
other! 16 So, because you are
lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I
am about to spit you out of my
mouth. 17 You say, 'I am rich; I
have acquired wealth and do not
need a thing.' But you do not
realize that you are wretched,
pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I
counsel you to buy from me gold
refined in the fire, so you can
become rich; and white clothes to
wear, so you can cover your
shameful unclothedness; and salve to
put on your eyes, so you can see.

@Drummaboy

If you think he cannot lose you, then be ready to be vomited. You must be in union with Christ by obeying his commandments and he will not lose you. Continue following Calvin, continue doing as it pleases you, continue thinking you are saved forever.
SMH!!!

Alwaystrue:
@Bidam, I am actually coming from a much more deeper angle than what is often termed 'departing from the faith' to become atheist.
Do you realise that people give excuse for sin? Examples?
1. Falsifying records or stealing with the pen (termed embezzlement) is often seen as taking one's share of the national cake in ministries
2. Oh there is nothing wrong in sleeping with a boyfriend or girlfriend, Afterall they plan to marry.
3. There is nothing wrong in marrying someone as a contract arrangement to get some citizenship status then divorce
4. It is not an issue to falsify birth records to get a job
5. 'Nothing wrong in porn, Afterall its not like I am sleeping with them'.
6. The levels people go to get certain desires met.
7. Oh that is the way we do things around here

All I mentioned above (a tip of the iceberg) are physical acts but borne out of unbelief...usually the first time one wants to try it, the tug will be serious by the spirit but as time goes on they lose the conscience and the heart gets hardened.
What I need us to understand is that unbelief is not just atheism. It has started in the heart of the Christian way before then until the heart is finally deadened.

I see unbelief as going against the word of God, or trying to walk around it with excuses and defiance in other cases. It is beyond sinning, knowing one has sinned, being convicted and repenting...it is more advanced and that is the deceitfulness of sin.

Hmnnnn..these things you listed are even prevalent amongst us believers.May God have mercy.

frosbel:

Only God has Power and this Power is available to ALL believers not just some self acclaimed gurus.

God has given us the Holy Spirit,so it is not wrong to say i have power. Can you raise the dead?

Bidam: God has given us the Holy Spirit,so it is not wrong to say i have power. Can you raise the dead?

You have no POWER all POWER belongs to Jesus.

DrummaBoy: I will find time o discuss the concept of Mental Attitude Sins and I will show that those types of sins originate from the heart and sins they are not overtly obvious sins we many times do not recognize them. The people most guilty of these sins are religious people who have succeeded in ridding themselves of the kind of sins @Alwaystrue listed above but are grqvely guilty of this worst kinf of sin. I hope to show that when we all stand before the awesome holiness of God non of righteousness will be suffifient. It is my prayet that we would have the Righteousness of Another with whiich any human can come before the presence if God. Mental Attitude Sins... Coming soon.

You can also be guilty of these by holding rigid to your beliefs and not being open to teaching an learning. No one is an epitome of biblical truth. Be open to learning.

frosbel:

You have no POWER all POWER belongs to Jesus.

of cos i have power. Christ is in me.

Bidam: Hmnnnn..these things you listed are even prevalent amongst us believers.May God have mercy.

Amen. We all need the help of God, it is not about a certain set of people but for all to examine our ways if we are still in the faith.
Walking in Christ, exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit of love, joy, peace, faithfulness, selfcontrol and others is key in examining ourselves and repenting where we fall short.