arsenalwenger: Typical of JW, confuse them and wind them down with argument and inconsistent proof. The link you provided have no correlation or justification or 1914. 1914 is a fraud only accepted by JW as a basis to enforce their official doctrine.

Christ said that all power that is in heaven, on earth and underneath the earth has been given to him immediately after his ressurection. He didnt have to wait until 1914 to get that done. Read your bible alone and ask God for inspiration to direct you. You are only telling me what the watchtower wants you to tell me. Wathctower is very wrong here. I wonder why you chose to believe and spread falsehood.

hisblud: you welcome. There is something about 1914 that they cant call it a mistake. Every other date according to jman05 was a mistake except 1914. Another thing i quite cant put together is this, you claim secular historians are wrong on the date but generally 607BC is accepted. Could you give us WHO comprised of the generally that agree with your calculation? This 1914?

hisblud: hmm, i dont know what to say about jw any more. What you peeps wrote above is crystal clear that the jesus the jw are holding on to adamantly, who happens to be one of the fallen angel, is different from the Yahshua Whom i believe is God. So we cannot agree to be serving the same Yahshua. So even if we try reasoning wit them its futile. Believing Yahshua is angel michael, the Rauch Ha Kodesh is a thing like tornados. We cant be on the same page with those that put up wit another jesus.

JMAN05:

Just see, he is not saving face with pointless sarcasm. When you began you were vibrating, but now your true heart is known. You never wanted the truth at all. You just thought you had enough point to chase this guys away.

JMAN05:

I never saw him say that 607 is generally accepted. Can you show me?

JMAN05:

I want to believe you ve exhausted your point. oya go think of another thing. It is obvious your god is not Jehovah as described in the bible. No one will say "I never saw the proves". We are not just saying believe, but believe with strong reasons.

JMAN05:

EARLY in 1911, the president of the Watch Tower Society, C. T. Russell, gave a series of Bible lectures in major cities of Europe. Commenting on that tour, Russell wrote the following in The Watch Tower, May 15, 1911: “We were surprised to find so many evidences of prosperity everywhere . . . Our readers know that for some years we have been expecting this Age to close with an awful time of trouble, and we expect it to break out with suddenness and force not long [i]after [/i]October, 1914, which, so far as we can understand the Scriptures, is the date at which the Times of the Gentiles—the lease of earth’s dominions to the Gentiles—will expire; the time, therefore, when Messiah’s kingdom will be due to begin its exercise of power.”

As for the calculation of 1914, follow this link which I DONT know how many times I will give it to you.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102005159?q=1914&p=par

The Gentile Times would end
in 1914, resulting in
- End of Armageddon
- The fall of false religion
- The end of all governments
- The resurrection
- Paradise on earth

Revelation 1:7 (KJV) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

The Watchtower says that the
standard by which to judge a
false messenger is whether
their messages "come true"? "Jehovah is the Grand
identifier of his true
messengers. He identifies
them by making the messages he delivers through them
come true. Jehovah is also the Great Exposer of false
messengers." Watchtower
1997 May 1 p.8

JMAN05:

Let anyone who wish to be blind remain blind. the bible said 70 years and some blind men want to discredit Jehovah's accurate statement. In short any person that says that it is 50 years, just ignore that person, if he rejects God's word, who are you then? When I see those silly comments, I often ignore them with short sentence and look for serious argument.

arsenalwenger:
As i said earlier,
i do not provide this links in order to justify whether, or not, your 607BC right or wrong ,

arsenalwenger:
<Secular history has it that the babylonians destroyed Jerusalem in 587 BC as aginst 607 BC as taught by JW.

arsenalwenger: The following facts should be establised:
<The calendar system used by the Jews during the babylonian era is different frm this gregorian era. Gregorian era has 365days as 1yr while the Jews calender uses 360days for 1yr. U cannot calculate a BC era using Jewish calender system and conclude ur prediction, during AD era, using gregorian callender. Its like saying 15'C (centigrade)+45'F (ferenhiet) is equal to 60. So this fact knocks out 1914 as false

<Secular history has it that the babylonians destroyed Jerusalem in 587 BC as aginst 607 BC as taught by JW.

<The dream of Nebuchadnezer which gave room to this calcualtion is never in anyway related to christ coming. The sysmbolic tree that was cut off was interpreted by Daniel as the fall of Nebucadnezer and his goin insane for certain period so that he can acknowleged the most high.

<Christ never say his coming will be invisible (Read Act 2)

<Christ says ALL authority has been given unto him in heaven, on earth and underneath the earth. He made the statement immediately after his ressurection. So christ's had been exercising his heavenly authority for over 2012 years and did not start in 1914.

Many many proofs and biblical evidence shows that the year 1914, as being taught by JW, is false.

arsenalwenger: www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/47693/Babylonian-Exile
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity
www.science.co.il/Israel-history.php
www.prophecysociety.org/wordpress/?p=165
As i said earlier,
i do not provide this links in order to justify whether, or not, your 607BC right or wrong , but to tell you that the watchtower 1914 is a lie. I knw you have been brainwashed never to accept anything or information that is not in tune with watchtower.
Note that the most reliable source of information, where most of the writers of awake and watchtower magazine get their facts, is encyclopedia britainicca (you can prove me wrong my dear cos im a great reader of awake). And according to them, the period of the destruction is 587BC and not 607BC as being taught by watchtower. And note that encyclopedia britainica will never quote watchtower or awake in their research but watchtower will always quote them. This means that, to a large extent, watchtower sees their source as credible and reliable.

So my point here is this, why is it that they are no longer reliable or credible, cos they go against your 607BC but are reliable when you agree with other information they supply you?

I am not here to disprove or approve any date, be it 607BC or 586Bc cos non of the dates has anythin to do with the coming of Jesus. I mean non. This date is just a fabrication of JW in order to justify their 1914 at all cost.

Open your mind my brother, i wont succumb to blackmail for me to soften my stand on what i know is an obvios falsehood. I wont.

arsenalwenger: www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/47693/Babylonian-Exile
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity
www.science.co.il/Israel-history.php
www.prophecysociety.org/wordpress/?p=165
As i said earlier, i do not provide this links in order to justify whether, or not, your 607BC right or wrong , but to tell you that the watchtower 1914 is a lie. I knw you have been brainwashed never to accept anything or information that is not in tune with watchtower.
Note that the most reliable source of information, where most of the writers of awake and watchtower magazine get their facts, is encyclopedia britainicca (you can prove me wrong my dear cos im a great reader of awake). And according to them, the period of the destruction is 587BC and not 607BC as being taught by watchtower. And note that encyclopedia britainica will never quote watchtower or awake in their research but watchtower will always quote them. This means that, to a large extent, watchtower sees their source as credible and reliable.

So my point here is this, why is it that they are no longer reliable or credible, cos they go against your 607BC but are reliable when you agree with other information they supply you?

I am not here to disprove or approve any date, be it 607BC or 586Bc cos non of the dates has anythin to do with the coming of Jesus. I mean non. This date is just a fabrication of JW in order to justify their 1914 at all cost.

Open your mind my brother, i wont succumb to blackmail for me to soften my stand on what i know is an obvios falsehood. I wont.

TroGunn:

From this post, the only thing you can accuse JW of is trusting the Bible completely, as opposed to accepting possibly inaccurate secular history.

Let's look at your Britannica link a bit ( http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/47693/Babylonian-Exile ). I find it informative, here's what it says in part:

"Many scholars cite 597 bc as the date of the first deportation, for in that year King Jehoiachin was deposed and apparently sent into exile with his family, his court, and thousands of workers. Others say the first deportation followed the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadrezzar in 586; if so, the Jews were held in Babylonian captivity for 48 years. Among those who accept a tradition (Jeremiah 29:10) that the exile lasted 70 years, some choose the dates 608 to 538, others 586 to about 516 (the year when the rebuilt Temple was dedicated in Jerusalem)" .

Clearly the choice is ours - whether to believe the Bible's 70-year exile or 48/50-year secular history version. As a Christian, what are U saying? That the Bible is wrong?

One fact, the Britannica and pretty much everyone agree on is the 538BC date when Cyrus ordered the Jews to return ( @Hisblud, please take note - this is what I said everyone agrees, not 607BC). Here's what Britannica wrote " The exile formally ended in 538 bc, when the Persian conqueror of Babylonia, Cyrus the Great, gave the Jews permission to return to Palestine. "

Based on this date, and accepting the Bible's 70-year exile will land you in 607BC as the date of Jerusalem desolation.

Note that the Britannica puts it on 608BC, because they started counting back from the time the order was given by Cyrus in 538BC. But Biblically, the exile actually ended when the stated "Sabbath" on Jerusalem ended, when the Jews returned fully 537BC ( in the 7th month according to Ezra 3:1-5).

Because the exile was to start from when "the land hath enjoyed its Sabbath", lasting 70 years as shown in 2 Chronicles 36:20-23 - "And he removeth those left of the sword unto Babylon, and they are to him and to his sons for servants, till the reigning of the kingdom of Persia, to fulfil the word of Jehovah in the mouth of Jeremiah, till the land hath enjoyed its sabbaths; all the days of the desolation it kept sabbath -- to the fulness of seventy years. And in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, at the completion of the word of Jehovah in the mouth of Jeremiah, hath Jehovah waked up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, and he causeth an intimation to pass over into all his kingdom, and also in writing, saying, Thus said Cyrus king of Persia, All kingdoms of the earth hath Jehovah, God of the heavens, given to me, and He hath laid a charge on me to build to Him a house in Jerusalem, that is in Judah; who is among you of all His people? Jehovah his God is with him, and he doth go up.'" (Young's)

Thus, the 70 years were to be a period when the land of Judah and Jerusalem would enjoy “sabbath rests.” This meant that the land would not be cultivated—there would be no sowing of seed or pruning of vineyards. (Leviticus 25:1-5, NIV)

As Britannica shows "Historians agree that several deportations took place (each the result of uprisings in Palestine)" , but the 70-year exile started when "all" the Jews left the land ( with no one to cultivate the land) after a particular uprising involving assassination of Gedaliah:

2 Kings 25:25, 26 - "In the seventh month, however, Ishmael son of Nethaniah, the son of Elishama, who was of royal blood, came with ten men and assassinated Gedaliah and also the men of Judah and the Babylonians who were with him at Mizpah. At this, all the people from the least to the greatest, together with the army officers, fled to Egypt for fear of the Babylonians ".

Only then, in the seventh Jewish month of that year could it be said that the land, now desolate and unworked, began to enjoy its Sabbath rest. To the Jewish refugees in Egypt, God said through Jeremiah: “You have seen all the disaster that I brought upon Jerusalem and upon all the cities of Judah. Behold, this day they are a desolation, and no one dwells in them.” (Jeremiah 44:1, 2, English Standard Version) So this event evidently marked the starting point of the 70 years.

Now, after Cyrus gave the order in 538BC, the Jews had to prepare to travel, a journey of at least 4 months (Ezr 7:9). The Jews returned fully in 537BC (in the 7th month according to Ezra 3:1-5) to be ready to start cultivating their land again, thus ending the Sabbath rest of the land.

Thus, from a Biblical point of view, the 70year exile ended, not when Cyrus made the order in 538BC, but when the Jews actually got back to their land and settled in to cultivate it in the 7th month of 537BC (Ezra 3:1-5) and obviously began 70years earlier in the 7th month of 607BC (when the last group left the land fallow, and fled to Egypt - 2 Kings 25:25, 26).

The question for Christians is, do you believe and trust the Bible completely or you allow "secular history", known to be wrong and sometimes founded on errored sources, shake you trust in the Bible?

truthislight: I never expected any usefull thing to come out from @Hisblud thread, i dont know what i am even doing here sef.

*Anyone that have time to waste can come and dance in circle in the mud with you. Smh.*

Peace though

truthislight: I never expected any usefull thing to come out from @Hisblud thread, i dont know what i am even doing here sef.

*Anyone that have time to waste can come and dance in circle in the mud with you. Smh.*

Peace though

truthislight: @arsenalwenger

Now, that you are a liar is very obviouse.

And that you are a deceitful fellow is esterblished from the contradictory lies in your post.

See below:



this is you posting here and saying that "you are not here to proof 607BC to be wrong".

But on an earlier post, you said it is wrong:



so, what are you here for then ?

Your presence here from the above ^ is useless, what christian are you speaking from both side of the mouth!

Since it has been esterblished that you are deceitful, what should i do with you ?

If i call you the sort of person you are, you will feel bad, but it is you allowing yourself to be use by that one for what you dont even the capacity to comprehend.

587 means that the Jews spent 50years in Exile as against Yahweh's word of 70years.

Are you an atheist ?


So now, please, run along! Will you ?
Smh.

arsenalwenger: www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/47693/Babylonian-Exile
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity
www.science.co.il/Israel-history.php
www.prophecysociety.org/wordpress/?p=165
As i said earlier, i do not provide this links in order to justify whether, or not, your 607BC right or wrong , but to tell you that the watchtower 1914 is a lie. I knw you have been brainwashed never to accept anything or information that is not in tune with watchtower.
Note that the most reliable source of information, where most of the writers of awake and watchtower magazine get their facts, is encyclopedia britainicca (you can prove me wrong my dear cos im a great reader of awake). And according to them, the period of the destruction is 587BC and not 607BC as being taught by watchtower. And note that encyclopedia britainica will never quote watchtower or awake in their research but watchtower will always quote them. This means that, to a large extent, watchtower sees their source as credible and reliable.

So my point here is this, why is it that they are no longer reliable or credible, cos they go against your 607BC but are reliable when you agree with other information they supply you?

I am not here to disprove or approve any date, be it 607BC or 586Bc cos non of the dates has anythin to do with the coming of Jesus. I mean non. This date is just a fabrication of JW in order to justify their 1914 at all cost.

Open your mind my brother, i wont succumb to blackmail for me to soften my stand on what i know is an obvios falsehood. I wont.

hisblud: notice the bolded, from oct 1914 the lease of rulership of the earth by gentile is suppose to be over and your archangel "another" christ is to begin reigning wit prosperity. What i see around me does not give credence to your prophet's statement of the end of the gentile era infact the gentiles are still ruling against your fake archangel jesus. In addition, clearly this is what 1914 prediction is www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/failed-1914-predictions.php

hisblud: another question you have not answered is which bible was used by russell to come to the chronological proof of 1914? Is it NWT or what?

hisblud: please house has anyone seen true Yahshua that thomas called my Lord and my God when he saw His pierced hands? Any one? If you havent and jw have claimed He has already come to rule, what should we say of such? Let jw answer

so russell and 1914 prediction na wash fakery unlimited.

JMAN05:

NWT has not been there then.

Emusan:

Sorry for deviating from the Op or your point, I don't mean any harm.

I need your respond on these questions;
Do JWs believe in Jesus as the saviour?
Do JWs believe in the death of Jesus?
Do JWs believe in the second coming?

Just want to know doesn't have anything with this thread.

Shalom!

JMAN05:

Let me assume that your last words were sincere.

Now answer me:

When did Cyrus make the decree that jews should return?

How was this secular date arrived at? by the time you give it to me, then I will open your eyes cos it is still blocked for now.

truthislight: @arsenalwenger

Now, that you are a liar is very obviouse.

And that you are a deceitful fellow is esterblished from the contradictory lies in your post.

See below:



this is you posting here and saying that "you are not here to proof 607BC to be wrong".

But on an earlier post, you said it is wrong:



so, what are you here for then ?

Your presence here from the above ^ is useless, what christian are you speaking from both side of the mouth!

Since it has been esterblished that you are deceitful, what should i do with you ?

If i call you the sort of person you are, you will feel bad, but it is you allowing yourself to be use by that one for what you dont even the capacity to comprehend.

587 means that the Jews spent 50years in Exile as against Yahweh's word of 70years.

Are you an atheist ?


So now, please, run along! Will you ?
Smh.

TroGunn:

From this post, the only thing you can accuse JW of is trusting the Bible completely, as opposed to accepting possibly inaccurate secular history.

Let's look at your Britannica link a bit ( http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/47693/Babylonian-Exile ). I find it informative, here's what it says in part:

"Many scholars cite 597 bc as the date of the first deportation, for in that year King Jehoiachin was deposed and apparently sent into exile with his family, his court, and thousands of workers. Others say the first deportation followed the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadrezzar in 586; if so, the Jews were held in Babylonian captivity for 48 years. Among those who accept a tradition (Jeremiah 29:10) that the exile lasted 70 years, some choose the dates 608 to 538, others 586 to about 516 (the year when the rebuilt Temple was dedicated in Jerusalem)" .

Clearly the choice is ours - whether to believe the Bible's 70-year exile or 48/50-year secular history version. As a Christian, what are U saying? That the Bible is wrong?

One fact, the Britannica and pretty much everyone agree on is the 538BC date when Cyrus ordered the Jews to return ( [size=19]@Hisblud, please take note - this is what I said everyone agrees, not 607BC[/size]). Here's what Britannica wrote " The exile formally ended in 538 bc, when the Persian conqueror of Babylonia, Cyrus the Great, gave the Jews permission to return to Palestine. "

Based on this date, and accepting the Bible's 70-year exile will land you in 607BC as the date of Jerusalem desolation.

Note that the Britannica puts it on 608BC, because they started counting back from the time the order was given by Cyrus in 538BC. But Biblically, the exile actually ended when the stated "Sabbath" on Jerusalem ended, when the Jews returned fully 537BC ( in the 7th month according to Ezra 3:1-5).

Because the exile was to start from when "the land hath enjoyed its Sabbath", lasting 70 years as shown in 2 Chronicles 36:20-23 - "And he removeth those left of the sword unto Babylon, and they are to him and to his sons for servants, till the reigning of the kingdom of Persia, to fulfil the word of Jehovah in the mouth of Jeremiah, till the land hath enjoyed its sabbaths; all the days of the desolation it kept sabbath -- to the fulness of seventy years. And in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, at the completion of the word of Jehovah in the mouth of Jeremiah, hath Jehovah waked up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, and he causeth an intimation to pass over into all his kingdom, and also in writing, saying, Thus said Cyrus king of Persia, All kingdoms of the earth hath Jehovah, God of the heavens, given to me, and He hath laid a charge on me to build to Him a house in Jerusalem, that is in Judah; who is among you of all His people? Jehovah his God is with him, and he doth go up.'" (Young's)

Thus, the 70 years were to be a period when the land of Judah and Jerusalem would enjoy “sabbath rests.” This meant that the land would not be cultivated—there would be no sowing of seed or pruning of vineyards. (Leviticus 25:1-5, NIV)

As Britannica shows "Historians agree that several deportations took place (each the result of uprisings in Palestine)" , but the 70-year exile started when "all" the Jews left the land ( with no one to cultivate the land) after a particular uprising involving assassination of Gedaliah:

2 Kings 25:25, 26 - "In the seventh month, however, Ishmael son of Nethaniah, the son of Elishama, who was of royal blood, came with ten men and assassinated Gedaliah and also the men of Judah and the Babylonians who were with him at Mizpah. At this, all the people from the least to the greatest, together with the army officers, fled to Egypt for fear of the Babylonians ".

Only then, in the seventh Jewish month of that year could it be said that the land, now desolate and unworked, began to enjoy its Sabbath rest. To the Jewish refugees in Egypt, God said through Jeremiah: “You have seen all the disaster that I brought upon Jerusalem and upon all the cities of Judah. Behold, this day they are a desolation, and no one dwells in them.” (Jeremiah 44:1, 2, English Standard Version) So this event evidently marked the starting point of the 70 years.

Now, after Cyrus gave the order in 538BC, the Jews had to prepare to travel, a journey of at least 4 months (Ezr 7:9). The Jews returned fully in 537BC (in the 7th month according to Ezra 3:1-5) to be ready to start cultivating their land again, thus ending the Sabbath rest of the land.

Thus, from a Biblical point of view, the 70year exile ended, not when Cyrus made the order in 538BC, but when the Jews actually got back to their land and settled in to cultivate it in the 7th month of 537BC (Ezra 3:1-5) and obviously began 70years earlier in the 7th month of 607BC (when the last group left the land fallow, and fled to Egypt - 2 Kings 25:25, 26).

The question for Christians is, do you believe and trust the Bible completely or you allow "secular history", known to be wrong and sometimes founded on errored sources, shake you trust in the Bible?

arsenalwenger: I am not here to disprove or approve any
date, be it 607BC or 586Bc cos non of the
dates has anythin to do with the coming
of Jesus. I mean non. This date is just a fabrication of JW in order to justify their
1914 at all cost.

JMAN05:

From the above, you dont even know what you are doing here. please go to a nearby radio station and tell them you lost your way. Perhaps your people will hear the announcement.

arsenalwenger: I am not here to disprove or approve any
date, be it 607BC or 586Bc cos non of the
dates has anythin to do with the coming
of Jesus. I mean non. This date is just a fabrication of JW in order to justify their
1914 at all cost.

arsenalwenger: You are loyal to watchtower and not to God or Jesus. If Jesus says his coming will be like a thief in the night and you are here saying he was ethroned in 1914 then you are a liar. If Jesus said all power in heaven, on earth earth and under the heaven has been given to him (more than 2000yrs ago) and watchtower is telling me that he was invisisbly enthroned in 1914 then watchtower is lying. If Jesus said that all eyes will see him when he returns and the watchtower said 'no' that his return will be invisible, then watchtower is a lying organization.

As hisblud has said earlier, it seem the JW Jesus (aka fallen angel) is different from Jesus of the Bible.