Emusan: Jws we need your attention on this thread
https://www.nairaland.com/1533426/jehovahs-witnesses-say-arc-angel-micheal#19826994

Shalom!

Seems a pretty pointless thread, not worth the time of any serious JW - dig up 80-years and older views of JWs which they have corrected and do what exactly?

JW (starting out as Bible Students) never claimed to be infallible - admitted severally to having wrong expectations and understanding before. They was a time they saw nothing wrong in smoking, celebrating birthdays and Christmas. As understanding of the Bible grew, they came to realize these practices and expectations were wrong and they promptly adjusted.

Really no different from Christ disciples who at one time thought that Christ would establish his kingdom at the time. ( Luke 19:11, Acts 1:6,7). Peter for a while just couldn't grasp why Jesus would have to die (Mark 8:31,32). Eventually he did.

You can't fault JWs willingness to continue to dig into the bible for better understanding. Like the noble Bereans, "with great eagerness and [they] examine the Scriptures every day", and make adjustments as necessary (Acts 17:11).

The question is, are you willing (like Christ disciples of old, Bereens, JWs) to adjust your viewpoint based on greater understanding of the scriptures? You should try it - much better than holding on to teachings/traditions of men and being obsessed with what JWs have moved on from.

@berny another thing must a "word" be used EXPLICITLY before the central idea is derived from the message?

@Hisblud

Hisblud; did the WHOLE WORLD repent in 1914 to cause God to postpone the coming of Christ?

lets see why the whole world need not repent but reasonable and genuine repentance of even ten people can cause God to delay his execution

read;

Genesis 18:22-33

22 The other men turned and headed toward Sodom, but the Lord remained with Abraham. 23 Abraham approached him and said, “Will you sweep away both the righteous and the wicked?

24 Suppose you find fifty righteous people living there in the city—will you still sweep it away and not spare it for their sakes? 25 Surely you wouldn’t do such a thing, destroying the righteous along with the wicked. Why, you would be treating the righteous and the wicked exactly the same! Surely you wouldn’t do that! Should not the Judge of all the earth do what is right?”

26 And the Lord replied, “If I find fifty righteous people in Sodom, I will spare the entire city for their sake.

27 Then Abraham spoke again. “Since I have begun, let me speak further to my Lord, even though I am but dust and ashes. 28 Suppose there are only forty-five righteous people rather than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five?”

And the Lord said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five righteous people there.”

29 Then Abraham pressed his request further. “Suppose there are only forty?”

And the Lord replied, “I will not destroy it for the sake of the forty.”

30 “Please don’t be angry, my Lord,” Abraham pleaded. “Let me speak—suppose only thirty righteous people are found?”

And the Lord replied, “I will not destroy it if I find thirty.”

31 Then Abraham said, “Since I have dared to speak to the Lord, let me continue—suppose there are only twenty?”

And the Lord replied, “Then I will not destroy it for the sake of the twenty.”

32 Finally, Abraham said, “Lord, please don’t be angry with me if I speak one more time.Suppose only ten are found there?”

And the Lord replied, “Then I will not destroy it for the sake of the ten.”

33 When the Lord had finished his conversation with Abraham, he went on his way, and Abraham returned to his tent


from 50 to 45 to 30 to 20 to 10, God said he will hold back his execution, he will not destroy wicked with righteous as low as ten

can we labelled this...flip,flop,flip,flop etc without taking advantage of the delay?

apostle peter predicts something in the last days concerning the issue of the last days that touch me personally, and that is just what people do now, instead of taking the advantage of Gods delay, they scoff at those who are doing their best to read the events and keep alert

read the prophecy peter predicts about last days;

2 peter 3-4;

3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.

hisblud: @berny another thing must a "word" be used EXPLICITLY before the central idea is derived from the message?

i have given you other options apart from the direct use of the word ..warning!

show the verse where jonah added alternative things that the people should do in his message to avert the doom


establish what suggests warning in jonah's message to the people,and quote the verse and not dictionary, Im interested in the verse that suggest jonah's warning expecially ..in his message that he delivered...to the nineveh.

the phrase in fourty days nineveh shall be destroyed, does not carry warning words like ..only if, ....provided that,....but if, etc. that could suggest warning

if these alternatives were not contained in jonah's message to the people then it means that you are forcing warning on the case, if you read the book of jonah very well, jonahs messages to the people was in quote,and easy to grasp without diverting the real meaning.

so in summary, God chose not to tell jonah to add alternative measure that ninevites can take for him to change his mind, but the people reasoned on their own to put on sackcloth, not jonah's directive.

TroGunn:
Seems a pretty poinntless thread, not worth the time of any serious JW - dig up 80-years and older views of JWs which they have corrected and do what exactly?

So you believed not recognizing one doctrine from onset signifies a true message from God?

[size=14pt]JW (starting out as Bible Students) never claimed to be infallible - admitted severally to having wrong expectations and understanding before. They was a time they saw nothing wrong in smoking, celebrating birthdays and Christmas. As understanding of the Bible grew, they came to realize these practices and expectations were wrong and they promptly adjusted.[/size]

SHM seriously!
simple questions with an honest answer,
*what is the FATE of those who accept and live their lives according to this doctrine then?
*who now told them to change the teaching?

Really no different from Christ disciples who at one time thought that Christ would establish his kingdom at the time. ( Luke 19:11, Acts 1:6,7). Peter for a while just couldn't grasp why Jesus would have to die (Mark 8:31,32). Eventually he did

Comparing this with what JWs have passed through is a great delusion.
None of the Jesus' desciples fully undestand Him not until Jesus was exalted and the Holyspirit was given.
So it means Russell didn't have Holy spirit before he declared himself as a Jehovah witness.

You can't fault JWs willingness to continue to dig into the bible for better understanding. Like the noble Bereans, "with great eagerness and [they] examine the Scriptures every day", and make adjustments as necessary (Acts 17:11).

What are the adjustments they made in the scriptures after they've studied the teaching personally?

The question is, are you willing (like Christ disciples of old, Bereens, JWs) to adjust your viewpoint based on greater understanding of the scriptures? You should try it - much better than holding on to teachings/traditions of men and being obsessed with what JWs have moved on from.

Yes of course!
The question is, are you still leaving a confuse life like Russell?

@berny another thing must a "word" be used EXPLICITLY before the central idea is derived from the message?

hisblud: @berny another thing must a "word" be used EXPLICITLY before the central idea is derived from the message?

@hisblud,

we are talking about warning which was not the central idea as you put it, but was forced on the issue, warning could be "a word" or "phrase" or even " a sentence" and it must be contained in a quoted message like that of jonah ..."40 days, nineveh shall be overthrown"

provided that you are reffering to jonahs message to the people of nineveh, yes! to your question, because it was "in quote", direct and contain a precise figure....."40 days, nineveh shall be overthrown"jonah 3:4

thats my answer

TroGunn:

Seems a pretty pointless thread, not worth the time of any serious JW - dig up 80-years and older views of JWs which they have corrected and do what exactly?

JW (starting out as Bible Students) never claimed to be infallible - admitted severally to having wrong expectations and understanding before. They was a time they saw nothing wrong in smoking, celebrating birthdays and Christmas. As understanding of the Bible grew, they came to realize these practices and expectations were wrong and they promptly adjusted.

Really no different from Christ disciples who at one time thought that Christ would establish his kingdom at the time. ( Luke 19:11, Acts 1:6,7). Peter for a while just couldn't grasp why Jesus would have to die (Mark 8:31,32). Eventually he did.

You can't fault JWs willingness to continue to dig into the bible for better understanding. Like the noble Bereans, "with great eagerness and [they] examine the Scriptures every day", and make adjustments as necessary (Acts 17:11).

The question is, are you willing (like Christ disciples of old, Bereens, JWs) to adjust your viewpoint based on greater understanding of the scriptures? You should try it - much better than holding on to teachings/traditions of men and being obsessed with what JWs have moved on from.

good point, but it seems like many outside this organisation dont take humility as a lovable quality, they choose not to know more. If you want to introduce new research findings, you go and establish your own church. thats there formular.

Emusan:

So you believed not recognizing one doctrine from onset signifies a true message from God?

what doctrine was Moses teaching before, and what did the apostles teach later?

SHM seriously!
simple questions with an honest answer,
*what is the FATE of those who accept and live their lives according to this doctrine then?
*who now told them to change the teaching?

what is the fate of those who observed and lived the Mosaic law, and what is the faith of those who didnt live according to it?

Comparing this with what JWs have passed through is a great delusion.
None of the Jesus' desciples fully undestand Him not until Jesus was exalted and the Holyspirit was given.
So it means Russell didn't have Holy spirit before he declared himself as a Jehovah witness.

1. when the holy spirit finally came on pentacost, why were people still arguing the circumcision even after receiving the spirit of truth? in short why should they even argue the matter? why was Peter still rejecting the gentiles?

2. Are you in effect saying that the disciples had no holy spirit before pentacost? are you also saying that the early disciples understood everything they wrote?

What are the adjustments they made in the scriptures after they've studied the teaching personally?

what adjusments did the apostles make in the hebrew/aramaic scriptures?

Yes of course!
The question is, are you still leaving a confuse life like Russell?

the bolded is the answer to the question.

The quote ....."fourty days nineveh shall be destroyed", does not carry warning words like ..only if, ....provided that,....but if, etc. that could suggest warning even outside the use of explicit word warning so, explicit usage of warning is not the issue here but elements that can suggest warning in the quote were NOT present!

the OP seems to be hard pressed on this! having answered his questions.

hisblud: rabzy... u welcome... now reading through what you wrote.. was the WORD "WARNING/PREDICTION" explicitly stated as berny would have us believe that only when the word "WARNING/PREDICTION" was explicitly stated then we will accept.

This what i said...

furthermore, i quoted this...

from the above, let me see how warning or prediction occurs in your post...

mmh.. ok lemme sort of a accept this....

WARNING can be applied
PREDICTION can be applied

PREDICTION can be applied

WARNING [If it had upto 10 peeps which it had not so the calamity fell]

now cutting short does not mean that there was REPENTANCE of any sort but because of His own choice not because someone's choice to repent....

One does not need to be totally dogmatic about the prediction and warning thing...sometimes it could be both. For example, it is an eternal standard of God from time immemorial that he will destroy the wicked, it is a certainty....that is a prediction and also a warning, such that any wicked person can repent repent and turn back from his ways and then live, now will all wicked people ever repent nooo...so that prediction of God will definitely come to pass, that he will destroy ungodly mankind.

In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, it has been decreed that those cities would be destroyed before God had the conversation with Abraham, so that was not a warning. God was not expecting the Sodomites to repent, they were beyond redemption as at the time the decision was made.

Abraham knew Calamity has been decreed upon Sodom but he wanted to persuade God to change his mind for the sake of a few righteous people he thought should be living there. He felt that City should have at least 10 good people, and God said he would spare the city if he there are 10. But only 4 were found and 3 made it out safely.

This was no warning, it was an outright judgement of destruction, which would have been averted not thru sudden repentance after the destruction has been decreed but if the number of already good people there were up to 10.

In the case of Hezekiah, God was not warning him that he will die, God was telling him what was certain to occur, nobody said to avert it you need to do this, nope. He was going to die. But this was an outcome Hezekiah was not ready to accept, so he pleaded with God profusely and God changed the outcome.

There was a similar scenario with Moses, God had told him he will lead the Israelites out of egypt into a land flowing with milk and honey, Moses believed that and he worked towards it, that was a certain outcome. But Moses made a mistake and God said no, Joshua would be the one to do it. Moses pleaded for God to revert his decision, but God told him never to raise the issue again.

So God's servants believe they can talk to God and he could agree to their plea and change his plans if he wants to.

so far ......what has been established on this thread is that, God can chose to delay the fuffilment of a doom prophecy does not make the reader of the prophecy a false prophet or unreliable,

Rather the focus should be how individuals can better their lives with God and be found spotless and doing what God approves

concerning jesus coming, i think russel and others who read the revelation about jesus presence in 1914 and even further can only be classified as readers of prophecies, and not inspirational prophets as some are putting it, and have only comply with what i thought was in habbakuk below;

God ordered a doom prediction for an appointed time, not an unchanged fix time, but can still be subject to delay for reasons God himself deem fit.

Habakkuk 2:2-3
GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

2 Then the Lord answered me,
“Write the vision.
Make it clear on tablets
so that anyone can read it quickly.
3 The vision [b]will still happen at the appointed time[/b].
It hurries toward its goal.
It won’t be a lie.
If it’s delayed, wait for it.
It will certainly happen.
It won’t be late.

note the clause, prophecy of God can be delayed......but true servant of God should wait for it.


2 Peter 3:8,14-17

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;

15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,

16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked

i think apart from russel, there are other readers who also read and point to 1914, among others on the next link we have what ..students of prophecy..of the assemblies of God church said about 1914;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfulfilled_Christian_religious_predictions#Assemblies_of_God_Church

During World War I, 1914–1918 The Weekly Evangel, an official publication of the Assemblies of God, carried this prediction:

"We are not yet in the Armageddon struggle proper, but at its commencement, and it may be, if [size=14pt]students of prophecy[/size] read the signs aright, that Christ will come before the present war closes, and before Armageddon...The war preliminary to Armageddon, it seems, has commenced.

After the prophecy of first wwar failed 1914-1918, then, Assemblies of God see more prophecies in 1934 1935 2nd w/war.,

if russel and others which i dont limit my choice who predicts and can cut across christianity stimulate and read prophecies and suggest a a particular year, but did not state a day and time, which only God knows, i think the emphasis should be for us do what peter said above,

17 "You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked"

the wicked mentioned here are the faultfinders who will not even wait and see maybe the prophecy readers are at fault or prophecy of God is subject to delay!

lastly, if the end had come in 1914 or earlier, most of us here would not have exist! are we greatfull to God because of that? or do we see the delay as an advantage to come closer to God? some people have killed their concience and their aim is to make people agnostic like theirself by undully watering down the zeal to serve God, but since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked"

there is one imminent end, closer to every one ...death, then judgement...and you shall be judge according to all your deeds, are you taking advantage of Gods delay?

@berny
Hi berny, long time… sorry for not replying to your posts this was because we had a network blackout… now back to the discussion at hand… before we forget what we are discussing, I want to remind us what we are discussing… The aim of this thread is to raise the issue that russel had predicted that the coming of Christ is definitely coming in 1914 which he stated that it was “set on stone” thus a definitive occurrence that must occur and nothing will change it. And you are here trying to use jonah’s prophecy to rubber stamp his prediction as “a correct event” that merely changed because God in His wisdom and discretion changed the date, to which am still in disagreement .

Mind you, the jw did not state similar prophecy like jonah rather they emphasis that Jesus presence already started before that time(1874), his rulership and the end of gentile rulership also.

Let me quote yooguz

Watchtower claims its foresight of 1914 as proof of Jehovah's direction. Is this justified, knowing the Watchtower was
incorrect in virtually every
aspect?
The following quotes show the positive spin the Watchtower puts on Russell's inaccurate
teachings, in an attempt to make people believe holy spirit directs
the Watchtower's interpretation of Bible prophecy. These quotes
range from misleading but technically true, through to blatantly false. Statements abound that the Watchtower pointed forward to 1914 as "the
start of "the conclusion of the system of things"", the start of "Jesus Presence", or the start of
his "rulership". Other phrases, such as that the Watchtower foretold 1914 to be the end of
the Gentile Times, are strictly accurate, but lead the reader to an incorrect conclusion about
the understanding of this
teaching.When reading these quotes, it is
important to remember that in 1914 the Watchtower was
teaching Jesus' presence began in 1874 and his heavenly rulership began in 1878.

"Our belief that the Kingdom began to be set up, or brought into power, in Apr, 1878, be it
observed, rests on exactly the same foundation as our belief that the Lord became present in
October, 1874, and that the harvest began at that time."
Studies in the Scriptures - Thy Kingdom Come p.235

As late as 1930, the Watchtower was still referring to 1874 as the
start of Jesus presence.

"… from the beginning of the Lord’s presence in 1874 the Devil used the Papal system as the
chief opposing instrument of God’s kingdom …" Watchtower
1930 p.275

Those in the Watchtower's writing department are well
aware of the organisations history. For instance, the 1993
Proclaimers book states:

"Based on the premise that events of the first century might find parallels in related events
later, they also concluded that if Jesus’ baptism and anointing in the autumn of 29 C.E. paralleled
the beginning of an invisible presence in 1874, then his riding
into Jerusalem as King in the spring of 33 C.E. would point to
the spring of 1878 as the time when he would assume his power as heavenly King."
Proclaimers p.632

Yet in that very same year, other Watchtower articles falsely claim:

"The Watchtower has
consistently presented evidence to honest hearted students of
Bible prophecy that Jesus’ presence in heavenly Kingdom power began in 1914. Events
since that year testify to Jesus' invisible presence." Watchtower 1993 Jan 15 p.5

"Jehovah's Witnesses have consistently shown from the Scriptures that the year 1914 marked the beginning of this
world's time of the end and that "the day of judgment and of
destruction of the ungodly men"
has drawn near."
Watchtower
1993 Aug 15 p.9

Now to what you posted…

@hisblud,

we are talking about warning which was not the central idea as you put it, but was forced on the issue, warning could be "a word" or "phrase" or even " a sentence" and it must be contained in a quoted message like that of jonah ..."40 days, nineveh shall be overthrown"

provided that you are reffering to jonahs message to the people of nineveh, yes! to your question, because it was "in quote", direct and contain a precise figure....."40 days, nineveh shall be overthrown"jonah 3:4

thats my answer

Are you saying “YES” that whether "a word" or "phrase" or even " a sentence" must be used EXPLICITLY before the central idea is derived from the message?

Furthermore, reading through your post, you seem to suggest that for the idea to be “warning”, there must of necessity be the following , ..only if, ....provided that,....but if… thus providing the reader with the ability to respond to the message… and going by your submission, is this provable on all the prophecy in the bible… ? and if NO, why?

Another thing, berny, you seem to sort of a give credence to russel’s prediction of 1914… ok lets say that his prediction from his diligent bible study pointed him to 1914 and he claims that the invincible appearance of Jesus has occurred who is believed to be an arch angel, the rulership of Christ started then and the ending of the gentile lordship, will you believe that such a one was speaking for God?

so far ......what has been established on this thread is that, God can chose to delay the fuffilment of a doom prophecy does not make the reader of the prophecy a false prophet or unreliable,

Rather the focus should be how individuals can better their lives with God and be found spotless and doing what God approves

beautiful.. this i believe refers to WHAT God has specifically stated in his word ... but for someone to come out dogmatically to claim a "year" as being the fulfilment of God's word, i dont buy that... for me am not scoffing at the return of Yahshua, rather am expecting Him to return... but i will scoff at anyone that claims Yahshua has already come as russel and co are saying...stating also that His reign started in 1914 and that the gentile rulership has ended then... not me berny... but if you give in to his failed 1914 prediction above and anyone for that matter... that is your cup of tea not for me, man, no matter how you take scriptures to justify it!

Hi berny, jonah did not change his words when the destruction of ninevah never occured. But can it be said of jw on 1914, read this

Picture

hisblud]@berny

Hi berny, long time… sorry for not replying to your posts this was because we had a network blackout… now back to the discussion at hand… before we forget what we are discussing, I want to remind us what we are discussing… The aim of this thread is to raise the issue that russel had predicted that the coming of Christ is definitely coming in 1914 which he stated that it was “set on stone” thus a definitive occurrence that must occur and nothing will change it

the same parralleled with jonah 3:4 ...."fourty days nineveh shall be destroyed"

did russel say "occurrence that must occur and nothing will change it" or you added that clause?

And you are here trying to use jonah’s prophecy to rubber stamp his prediction as “a correct event” that merely changed because God in His wisdom and discretion changed the date, to which am still in disagreement

did jonah stated "in his prophecy/message" that GOD will change "on a particular condition" you have not provided even one! quote me a verse to that effect!

Mind you, the jw did not state similar prophecy like jonah rather they emphasis that Jesus presence already started before that time(1874), his rulership and the end of gentile rulership also

.

you talk of jw, as an organisation, and pronto! you switch to isolating russell, lets treat russel vs jonah as you put the topic ok? im meticoulous, note that!

Let me quote yooguz

yooguys quote was removed from a context of a paragraph which means that the true meaning of that sentences removed can be better understood if YOU hisblud provide a pdf of whole page that contain youguys quote, please do that now on fairness basis!

Now to what you posted…

Are you saying “YES” that whether "a word" or "phrase" or even " a sentence" must be used EXPLICITLY before the central idea is derived from the message?

so what you want to see is yes! with your case not even fit or lack elements that can suggest the use of a so called explicit use of warning? you dont put words in my mouth, sorry! nothing suggests warning in jonahs case and you have failed again to prove it!

Furthermore, reading through your post, you seem to suggest that for the idea to be “warning”, there must of necessity be the following , ..only if, ....provided that,....but if… thus providing the reader with the ability to respond to the message… and going by your submission, is this provable on all the prophecy in the bible… ? and if NO, why?

we are treating a particular case of jonah vs russel, and you are yet to prove what could suggest warning in his message to the people, have you agreed that you have failed to prove warning in jonahs case before jumping to "all prophecy in the bible"

Another thing, berny, you seem to sort of a give credence to russel’s prediction of 1914…

not only russel, but the
"students of prophecies of the assemblies of God church" which i quoted their predictions in 1914 and 1935 etc why dont you note that?

ok lets say that his prediction from his diligent bible study pointed him to 1914 and he claims that the invincible appearance of Jesus has occurred

have you read mathew 24:3? about signs of jesus return?

As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

jesus replied,

Mathew 24:7-8

7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

signs of jesus return may also be his invicible presence, which the assemblies of God students of prophecy noted that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfulfilled_Christian_religious_predictions#Assemblies_of_God_Church

During World War I, 1914–1918 The Weekly Evangel, an official publication of the Assemblies of God, carried this prediction:

"We are not yet in the Armageddon struggle proper, but at its commencement, and it may be."..........

who is believed to be an arch angel, the rulership of Christ started then and the ending of the gentile lordship, will you believe that such a one was speaking for God?

quote the whole page from the book where your quote was removed to satisfy that it was not out of context case, and what is your standard of judging that one is not from God?

can you answer this; in luke 21, jesus said "this generation will not pass before all these things happen" yet generations upon generations came and gone, hisblud do you still believe jesus as a true prophet of God? with respect to that verse? i need your answer

[quote author=hisblud]

beautiful.. this i believe refers to WHAT God has specifically stated in his word ... but for someone to come out dogmatically to claim a "year" as being the fulfilment of God's word, i dont buy that

what do you mean by dogmatic? then jonah is dogmatic when he specifically mention "40 days more nineveh shall be overthrown" yet it did not happen, that is how your defination of dogmatic goes . you know that i have ask you severally for more than six time now, did jonah added "conditions" that could make God change his plan? you cant answer that till now!

you seem to hate this people jehovahs witnesses with passion, but your evidences to prove them wrong was faulty and not carrying any weight

... for me am not scoffing at the return of Yahshua, rather am expecting Him to return

how are you waiting for his return? you think that it is to wait as in a bus stop waiting for a bus? you cant wait for jesus like that, no human got the power over what can happen to himself or herself, but rather you wait by doing everything possible to put your life in shape to please God, so that even if death come at any time you have a good conscience...

but i will scoff at anyone that claims Yahshua has already come as russel and co are saying...stating also that His reign started in 1914 and that the gentile rulership has ended then... not me berny... but if you give in to his failed 1914 prediction above and anyone for that matter... that is your cup of tea not for me, man, no matter how you take scriptures to justify it!

carry go! you have a personal beef at these jehovahs witnesses, thats not my concern my concern is to look into claims you brought up and see wheather they are not biblical or not

hisblud: Hi berny, jonah did not change his words when the destruction of ninevah never occured. But can it be said of jw on 1914, read this

lets keep to the topic, jonah vs russel(man to man) dont switch to jonah vs jw in a case where the topic demands jonah vs russel, so did russel change his word concerning 1914 to another date as the year of christ invicible presence? show me a credible evidence here, a full paragraph, not just quotes

hisblud:

beautiful.. this i believe refers to WHAT God has specifically stated in his word ... but for someone to come out dogmatically to claim a "year" as being the fulfilment of God's word, i dont buy that... for me am not scoffing at the return of Yahshua, rather am expecting Him to return... but i will scoff at anyone that claims Yahshua has already come as russel and co are saying...stating also that His reign started in 1914 and that the gentile rulership has ended then... not me berny... but if you give in to his failed 1914 prediction above and anyone for that matter... that is your cup of tea not for me, man, no matter how you take scriptures to justify it!

A lot of things Russell said were misconstrued while he was alive and took great pains to explain himself, still he people still spread a lot of mis-information. First and foremost, Russell was not a prophet nor did he claim to be one, he was a student of the Bible and took time to study on his own and consulted with others also on several scriptural points. One of his famous books is studies of the scriptures.

Russell from his studies believed that Christ would appear invisibly an his manifestation would not be apparent to all immediately until much later, he met Barbour who believed and taught that Christ appeared invisibly in 1874 based on their calculation that, that year marked 6000 years from adam so therefore would usher in a 'thousand year sabbath rest'. Now he met Barbour in 1876, two years after the event was supposed to have taken place invisibly. His studies with barbour made him believe so, it could not have been a prediction if you believed something after the event was said to have occurred.

His studies of the scriptures also pointed to the year 1914 as a significant year, he has been talking about 1914 since the late 1870s. It was said that 1914 would mark the end of the gentile times and the commencement of a time of trouble or tribulation. This was how he explained the 'end of the gentile times

'
Now, dear friends, our expectation has been that these Gentile times would finish with the present year, 1914, and that with the finishing of the Gentile times, forthwith, immediately, God's kingdom would begin to manifest itself. I do not know yet that this is not true. It will have to be shown. Perhaps somebody can prove that it is not true, but I do not think anyone yet can prove that it is not true. If we come to the full end of 1914 and nothing transpires following that time to indicate the establishment of Christ's Kingdom amongst mankind, then perhaps we will have to reconsider matters; but not until then will it be necessary for us to reconsider.

Because these Gentile governments, represented by the image Babylon, Medo-Persia, etc., were given their places to occupy for a certain specific time, between the time Zedekiah's crown was taken away and the time when Messiah's Kingdom would be established. All of that time they must have. It is like a lease given to you. If you received a lease expiring October, 1914, why then, just as soon as the lease would expire it would be time for you to get out of the premises. Suppose you did not know that your lease had expired; it was long and you had forgotten it was for October 1st, 1914. You were building, planting and fixing up the house as though you were expecting to stay there forever. Now your lease has run out; what would you then expect? You would receive some notice to get out. Suppose you did not go? You would be put out.


It was an 'expectation' and never a prediction and he never said said it was 'cast in stone' that was what his critics said when he mentioned witnesses in stone i.e alluding to one of the pyramids.

Russell and his friends were ardent Bible students, they sought for knowledge, they consulted amongst themselves, they came out with what they understood from their studies, they were wrong on some things but they never said, they never said they never said they were prophets nor infallible.

@hisblud

Furthermore, reading through your post, you seem to suggest that for the idea to be “warning”, there must of necessity be the following , ..only if, ....provided that,....but if… thus providing the reader with the ability to respond to the message… and going by your submission, is this provable on all the prophecy in the bible… ? and if NO, why?

berny
we are treating a particular case of jonah vs russel, and you are yet to prove what could suggest warning in his message to the people, have you agreed that you have failed to prove warning in jonahs case before jumping to "all prophecy in the bible"

WHO decides that it MUST be russel vs jonah… why not russel vs Yahshua or even russel vs any of the major/minor prophet? Am still asking you this and you seem to ignore or divert from it. So if you feel that it must be russel vs jonah that’s your opinion… what of russel vs Ezekiel… moreover, I gave you a quote from Ezekiel and you deliberately ignored it. Why? if I may ask. So you cant just try to use a verse to uphold your idea and then try to “force” me not to present any verse to query your idea that for warning to be used in the context of a verse such words as these MUST be used ..only if, ....provided that,....but if… and to which I now ask you

Furthermore, reading through your post, you seem to suggest that for the idea to be “warning”, there must of necessity be the following , ..only if, ....provided that,....but if… thus providing the reader with the ability to respond to the message… and going by your submission, is this provable on all the prophecy in the bible… ? and if NO, why?

I gave you a general view of how to uphold prophecy such as

PREDICTION:

If it was a prediction, the plain statement of fact about the future was absolute andwas falsified by the event.

WARNING:

If it was a warning, it carried an unexpress condition clause, “unless you repent.”

which He could generally apply to some prophecy and still uphold the unchanging nature and attribute of God in His prophecy through His servants.

Using this in Jonah’s case

WARNING:

If it was a warning, it carried an unexpress condition clause, “unless you repent.” [quote]

We would see that jonah 3:4 has an unexpressed conditional clause which you know that it was not EXPLICITLY stated but could be IMPLICITLY stated OR INFERED from the context of the whole chapter when read together and juxtaposing with other verses like the Ezekiel statement which I earlier quoted that you ignored.

[quote]
Ezek 3:18-19

18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

the same parralleled with jonah 3:4 ...."fourty days nineveh shall be destroyed"
did russel say"occurrence that must occur and nothing will change it"or you added that clause?

I beg to disagree with you that when parallel with jonah’s statement

Jonah 3:4
And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
KJV

Hey and by the way… russel was referring to the appearance of the Great King of kings which he claim He is invincibly around which his followers even on this thread have bore witness to…. And another thing jonah claimed 40 days and ninevah will be overthrown… however the One russel claims to have appeared invinciblly, stated that the day nor the hour has not been revealed, how come russel used 1914, a year which comprised of DAY AND HOUR to build his failed prediction on so are you now still going to keep yapping that Yahshua is coming this year or next year? For me no, rather am okay with the signs all around me as proof that Yahshua will surely come but day, hour or year, am NEVER interested in from any quarters be they assemblies of God or jw or any group for that matter that claim any date.

Matt 24:35-37
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

KJV

you talk of jw, as an organisation, and pronto! you switch to isolating russell, lets treat russel vs jonah as you put the topic ok? im meticoulous, note that!

Eh.. are you a Christian? Will what you uphold not be shown to be what your Master must surely direct you? So when I refer to jw am referring to what they uphold which is similar to russel’s except you want to claim otherwise!

did jonah stated "in his prophecy/message" that GOD will change "on a particular condition" you have not provided even one! quote me a verse to that effect!

Do you infer when you read the bible in context and using the surrounding verses to fully understand the central idea being portray as well as juxtaposing with other similar verses or do you simply state that because an idea was not EXPLICITLY stated therefore I reject that idea?

yooguys quote was removed from a context of a paragraph which means that the true meaning of that sentences removed can be better understood if YOU hisblud provide a pdf of whole page that contain youguys quote, please do that now on fairness basis!

Thank you for that observation but do you know that NON of the jw on this thread have refuted him by providing the original piece that the quote was taken from? So if they have not refuted it, it shows that it gives credence to what yooguz have quoted and I might as well use it as a reference article unless otherwise proven wrong with a stronger reason with evidence. By the way, you know that a former jw like yooguz, who provided us this information and on another thread he dared them to prove him wrong to which he was ready to provide the scanned document for confirmation and NOBODY responded to him and if you had read my appreciation for rabzy quotes on the bible russel used to arrive at 1914, he did not provide a scanned copy of his quote but its still there to be referenced by anyone including you. so asking me to provided the pdf is irrelevant since the jw have not refuted him nor provided an original document to that effect. Moreover, in your quoting of any article, do you always expect the original pdf before you make reference to such a page on a fairness basis?

so what you want to see is yes! with your case not even fit or lack elements that can suggest the use of a so called explicit use of warning? you dont put words in my mouth, sorry! nothing suggests warning in jonahs case and you have failed again to prove it!

Neither can you justify russel failed prediction of 1914 with the jonah unexpressed conditional warning either

not only russel, but the "students of prophecies of the assemblies of God church" which i quoted their predictions in 1914 and 1935 etc why dont you note that?

Please, berny, as you intend to give credence to anyone that try to justify dates as when Yahshua will come by whomever, for me, I rather believe what Yahshua said and paul that I should prove all things…

1 Thess 5:17-23
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

KJV

So if anyone prophecy, I need to prove it and hold to what is good and all those prophecying about the appearance of Yahshua are not GOOD so I will abstain from such evil prediction… so I will not justify any prophecy no matter what…

have you read mathew 24:3?about signs of jesus return?
As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, andwhat will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
jesus replied,
Mathew 24:7-8
7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
signs of jesus return may also be his invicible presence, which the assemblies of God students of prophecy noted that

Guy, I have read it over and over and no where did it say the year is 1914 as russel stated from his diligent bible studies, when this signs will occur. Btw do you know that there has been famines, war, pestilence and earthquakes before 1914? So what are you trying to justify? The occurance of the various events or 1914? SMH. In mat, did Yahshua state we should note the year or He wanted us to just observe the signs of His coming? And by the way did it EXPLICITLY state 1914 is the year of His appearing… answer me.

Secondly has Christ ever been visibly present after He was taken up to heaven

to warrant Him now to be invincibly present? He has always been invincible not until 1914 please. So if assembly of God and jw claim that its in 1914 that He started to be invincibly present, then such is ANOTHER CHRIST.

quote the whole page from the book where your quote was removed to satisfy that it was not out of context case, and what is your standard of judging that one is not from God?

Are you denying that jw don’t see Christ as an Arch angel? Reread all the thread on jw and you will notice that one of their doctrines is tha Christ is an arch angel.

what do you mean by dogmatic? then jonah is dogmatic when he specifically mention "40 days more nineveh shall be overthrown" yet it did not happen, that is how your defination of dogmatic goes. you know that i have ask you severally for more than six time now,did jonah added "conditions" that could make God change his plan? you cant answer that till now!
you seem to hate this people jehovahs witnesses with passion, but your evidences to prove them wrong was faulty and not carrying any weight

This is what I refer to as dogmatic even by his followers

"Now, in view of recent labor troubles and threatened anarchy, our readers are writing to know if there may not be a mistake in the 1914 date. They do not see how present conditions can hold out so long under the strain. We see no reason for changing the figures - nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." Zion's Watch Tower 1894 Jul 15 p.226

And Must an express explicit conditional clause/word/statement be issued before the idea of condition is derived from the context of the passage? Answer me!

how are you waiting for his return? you think that it is to wait as in a bus stop waiting for a bus? you cant wait for jesus like that, no human got the power over what can happen to himself or herself, but rather you wait by doing everything possible to put your life in shape to please God, so that even if death come at any time you have a good conscience...

I don’t need to wait on berny and russel to convince me of the year 1914 before i receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness in Christ, rather the signs of famines, war, pestilence and earthquakes is much better than 1914!

carry go! you have a personal beef at these jehovahs witnesses, thats not my concern my concern is to look into claims you brought up and see wheather they are not biblical or not

Did Christ say I should look for Him in 1914? Answer me!

lets keep to the topic, jonah vs russel(man to man) dont switch to jonah vs jw in a case where the topic demands jonah vs russel, so did russel change his word concerning 1914 to another date as the year of christ invicible presence? show me a credible evidence here, a full paragraph, not just quotes

Again , Eh.. are you a Christian? Will what you uphold not be shown to be what your Master must surely direct you? So when I refer to jw am referring to what they uphold which is similar to russel’s except you want to claim otherwise!
Yahshua’s stance = Christian stance

Russel stance = jw stance… simple!

And if they claim that some of their doctrines have changed, why has 1914 not been changed as well? I tot their previous doctrine was based on the bible which they changed, so 1914 must also change if you get my drift.

hisblud:



WHO decides that it MUST be russel vs jonah… why not russel vs Yahshua or even russel vs any of the major/minor prophet? Am still asking you this and you seem to ignore or divert from it. So if you feel that it must be russel vs jonah that’s your opinion… what of russel vs Ezekiel… moreover, I gave you a quote from Ezekiel and you deliberately ignored it. Why? if I may ask. So you cant just try to use a verse to uphold your idea and then try to “force” me not to present any verse to query your idea that for warning to be used in the context of a verse such words as these MUST be used ..only if, ....provided that,....but if… and to which I now ask you



I gave you a general view of how to uphold prophecy such as



which He could generally apply to some prophecy and still uphold the unchanging nature and attribute of God in His prophecy through His servants.

Using this in Jonah’s case

While you have to be commended for your enthusiasm and time spent on this issue, you have largely failed to listen to what has been said or counter using the scriptures.

A clear distinction has been made between "prophesying/prediction" and "expectation". The "prophecy/prediction" is already in the Bible, the "expectation" is when those prophecies are believed to have been fulfilled.

The bible chronology used to arrive at 1914 as the year of Christ's assumption of Kingdom power is similar to that recorded in the Bible predicting when the Messiah was to appear:

Daniel 9:25,26 - "Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed".

Vigilant, studious Jews who expended themselves to studying the Scriptures and this Daniel's prophecy (written hundreds of years before Christ came to earth) would have correctly calculated from year 455 B.C.E when the "word to rebuild Jerusalem went out", to "expect" the appearing of the Messiah in 29CE when Christ was baptized (thus anointed as Messiah).

This is pretty much what JWs did. The early Bible students had expectations based on studying Bible prophecies deeply and it was largely true, though there were elements they had wrong expectations of. Nothing is wrong is trying to understand the Bible fully. It's not impossible for serious Christians to misunderstand things ( as the Apostles did, because they are not infallible) - what is more important is willingness to continue to peer into the scriptures for better understanding, like JWs continue to do up to this day.

Feel free to look again at the explanations for 1914 on this thread from the links below, and if you have a biblical basis for a different opinion, please bring it up for discussion:

https://www.nairaland.com/1525969/jman05-bernimoore-jonahs-warning-vs#19747459

https://www.nairaland.com/1525969/jman05-bernimoore-jonahs-warning-vs/1#19773623

https://www.nairaland.com/1525969/jman05-bernimoore-jonahs-warning-vs/2#19780247

You really need to dial down your obsession with Charles Russell. As much as JWs appreciate and respect the early work he and other students of the Bible did, they were just men who willingly expended their time and resources to understand the bible and surely had some wrong expectations (as did the early apostles) but were willing to course-correct and continue learning from the Scriptures.

[quote author=hisblud]

WHO decides that it MUST be russel vs jonah… why not russel vs Yahshua or even russel vs any of the major/minor prophet? Am still asking you this and you seem to ignore or divert from it. So if you feel that it must be russel vs jonah that’s your opinion…what of russel vs Ezekiel… moreover

you decide! from the very day you put up this thread, see the bolded .....Re: JMAN05, BERNIMOORE ON JONAH'S WARNING VS JW RUSSELL 1914 PREDICTION

you have limited the thread to jonah and russel! with the heading of the thread! it would have been another case if you if you had put jonah vs jehovahs witnesses

i was reacting to what you said below

Hisblud. Hi berny, jonah did not change his words when the destruction of ninevah never occured. But can it be said of jw on 1914, read this

i only try to also remind you that since jonah did not change his words when the destruction of ninevah never occured before he died, russel too never change anything he said about 1914 before he died, maybe you have dig and search for any changes russel might have made but you cant lay your hand on any, you seem to be hard pressed, hence you decide to put russel vs yahshua ...or major/minor prophets,

and it would be unfair if after failing to show if russel had changed what he said about 1914 to another date to now force what he did not say or changes he did not make on him, you easily try to separate jonah and nahum prediction of doom on nineveh which both never witnessed. but tried to force what russel did not change before he died on him...are you fair? brother, i want fairness to these jehovahs witnesses, no matter how you tried to mix these facts up, it would be separated!

Imaging

hisblud: Imaging

While you have to be commended for your enthusiasm and time spent on this issue, you have largely failed to listen to what has been said or counter using the scriptures.

A clear distinction has been made between "prophesying/prediction" and "expectation". The "prophecy/prediction" is already in the Bible, the "expectation" is when those prophecies are believed to have been fulfilled.

The bible chronology used to arrive at 1914 as the year of Christ's assumption of Kingdom power is similar to that recorded in the Bible predicting when the Messiah was to appear:

Daniel 9:25,26 - "Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed".

Vigilant, studious Jews who expended themselves to studying the Scriptures and this Daniel's prophecy (written hundreds of years before Christ came to earth) would have correctly calculated from year 455 B.C.E when the "word to rebuild Jerusalem went out", to "expect" the appearing of the Messiah in 29CE when Christ was baptized (thus anointed as Messiah).

This is pretty much what JWs did. The early Bible students had expectations based on studying Bible prophecies deeply and it was largely true, though there were elements they had wrong expectations of. Nothing is wrong is trying to understand the Bible fully. It's not impossible for serious Christians to misunderstand things ( as the Apostles did, because they are not infallible) - what is more important is willingness to continue to peer into the scriptures for better understanding, like JWs continue to do up to this day.

Feel free to look again at the explanations for 1914 on this thread from the links below, and if you have a biblical basis for a different opinion, please bring it up for discussion:

https://www.nairaland.com/1525969/jman05-bernimoore-jonahs-warning-vs#19747459

https://www.nairaland.com/1525969/jman05-bernimoore-jonahs-warning-vs/1#19773623

https://www.nairaland.com/1525969/jman05-bernimoore-jonahs-warning-vs/2#19780247

You really need to dial down your obsession with Charles Russell. As much as JWs appreciate and respect the early work he and other students of the Bible did, they were just men who willingly expended their time and resources to understand the bible and surely had some wrong expectations (as did the early apostles) but were willing to course-correct and continue learning from the Scriptures.

hisblud: Imaging

You are doing a great job but its unfortunate that you are dealing with friends that would have to get their confirmation from a certain quarter before they can choose what to accept or reject as Bible truth.

Keep up with your independent learning.

arsenalwenger: You are doing a great job but its unfortunate that you are dealing with friends that would have to get their confirmation from a certain quarter before they can choose what to accept or reject as Bible truth.

Keep up with your independent learning.

And so hilarious that you cant disprove this confirmation when you also confrim yours so that it suit your church's. I hope Berny is also doing this confirmation? Some have eyes but they cannot see...

JMAN05:

And so hilarious that you cant disprove this confirmation when you also confrim yours so that it suit your church's. I hope Berny is also doing this confirmation? Some have eyes but they cannot see...

I dont attach my loyalty to any church but the bible alone. If a church is preaching false doctrine i will leave, its not by force.

A saying goes thus: exclusivity is the right claim when making a 'truth' statement. From your point of view all christian churches are worshipping the devil except JW that was formed in the late 19th century by Russel. The same organization that has jettisoned many of their biblical teachings (I am not saying xmas, easter or birthday pls, i mean core bible doctrines) replacing them with new ones. That have made many failed predictions but maintain only unbiblical 1914 as the sole surviving one.

I have nothing to disprove again cos there is no any biblical basis for 1914, it was only conjured up by WTS to deceive the gullible. Many a prediction made such as 1925, 1935, 1975 etc have all been trashed as false. What gives you the impression that 1914 must be true when 100% of all JW predictions are all false.

I like you loyalty, but there is danger in blind loyalty.

As our lord Jesus Christ said, at Matt 7:7,8 - "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened".

Clear biblical explanations for 1914 has been discussed here:

https://www.nairaland.com/1525969/jman05-bernimoore-jonahs-warning-vs#19747459

https://www.nairaland.com/1525969/jman05-bernimoore-jonahs-warning-vs/1#19773623

https://www.nairaland.com/1525969/jman05-bernimoore-jonahs-warning-vs/2#19780247

No real biblical counter has been put forward, except an obsession with teachings of JWs in the 30s and earlier.

Only counter of note was bringing up secular history's date of destruction of Jerusalem, which clearly is inconclusive and runs contrary to the clear biblical assertion that the exile lasted 70years and not 50 years as put forward by secular history.

While JWs keep peering and making adjustments like the early Apostles/Christians, the haughty will stick to centuries-old doctrines of men - such as the God-insulting teaching of Hellfire, the confused pagan-derived Trinity, pagan-derived celebrations, the confused, Greek-inspired immortal soul doctrine, etc. - despite clear biblical evidence to the contrary, will not forsake it, but keep on with dubious reasoning to stick to traditions of men.

The Bible is a treasure trove of deep spiritual gems - only the humble, interested in getting the truth will keep peering into it, humbling course-correcting as necessary in that search.

TroGunn:

While JWs keep peering and making adjustments like the early Apostles/Christians, the haughty will stick to centuries-old doctrines of men - such as the God-insulting teaching of Hellfire, the confused pagan-derived Trinity, pagan-derived celebrations, the confused, Greek-inspired immortal soul doctrine, etc. - despite clear biblical evidence to the contrary, will not forsake it, but keep on with dubious reasoning to stick to traditions of men

how would you feel, if the new current watchtower teaching says hell is real?

TroGunn: As our lord Jesus Christ said, at Matt 7:7,8 - "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened".

Clear biblical explanations for 1914 has been discussed here:

https://www.nairaland.com/1525969/jman05-bernimoore-jonahs-warning-vs#19747459

https://www.nairaland.com/1525969/jman05-bernimoore-jonahs-warning-vs/1#19773623

https://www.nairaland.com/1525969/jman05-bernimoore-jonahs-warning-vs/2#19780247

No real biblical counter has been put forward, except an obsession with teachings of JWs in the 30s and earlier.

Only counter of note was bringing up secular history's date of destruction of Jerusalem, which clearly is inconclusive and runs contrary to the clear biblical assertion that the exile lasted 70years and not 50 years as put forward by secular history.

While JWs keep peering and making adjustments like the early Apostles/Christians, the haughty will stick to centuries-old doctrines of men - such as the God-insulting teaching of Hellfire, the confused pagan-derived Trinity, pagan-derived celebrations, the confused, Greek-inspired immortal soul doctrine, etc. - despite clear biblical evidence to the contrary, will not forsake it, but keep on with dubious reasoning to stick to traditions of men.

The Bible is a treasure trove of deep spiritual gems - only the humble, interested in getting the truth will keep peering into it, humbling course-correcting as necessary in that search.

The word of God is not dynamic or subject to changes when the light gets brighter. We are to increase in the knowledge of the word of God and not switching beliefs from one form to another.

Christains have a traditional belief system based on the word of God, among which is the trinity. The trinity will not make sense to a Jw as long as the Holy spirit is regarded as a non-living thing by JW. The doctrine will not make sense as long as the son is regarded as angel michael by JW, all in a cunning attempt to 'debunk' trinity at all cost (as against the bibble teaching).

So you are yet to fully understand how your organization operate.