Can anyone one on this forum please explain in clear terms ' the trinity' to me?

I have not met any xtians who can explain it to me without getting confused themself along the way.

you mean, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit right?


where is drusilla? i miss her now. she can do dis job for me.

Yes thats what i mean. U cant explain it to me?

i dont think thats something u can learn that here, its jus about believing that the 3 are 1. not as simple as that but its a start

Question still not answered. But thanks for the 'Start'.

@Darkchild,

I have followed the recent arguments and posts between Muslims and Christians, and the reason why
I decided to keep calm up until now is to avoid beclouding issues and promote the noise trumped up
by some Muslims who haven't taken the time in their poor scholarship to look at their misconceptions. The
Trinity is one of them, and I do hope that your enquiry is unpretentious.

A few things you have to understand is that you cannot fully understand God, let alone the Trinity. That's
why I would rather follow through on a discussion about certain texts people find difficult to understand
rather than attempt to fully explain the Trinity.

Deut. 29:29 - 'The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong
unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.'

In the OT, God was not fully known by His people - but He has always been the One eternal and unchanging
God. The Trinity is simply a term employed to seek an understanding of the One true and living God who has
revealed Himself as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This revelation was only possible when the Son
came to earth to reveal the Godhead in the NT.

Analogies have been used in trying to explain the Trinity; but in my opinion, no analogy comes close to doing
a good job at conveying the mystery of the Triune God. Trinity does not suggest "three gods" - as Muslims
often misconstrue it to be. The doctrine of the Trinity is not a pagan or NT ideology - it has been there all along
right from the OT. The very first chapter of Genesis says: "Let Us make man in Our image after Our likeness"
(vs. 26). Everyone who reads that verse agrees God was speaking - but to whom was He speaking? Some say
He was speaking to the angels; but that is thrown out by the collective testimony of The Bible - because not
one verse suggests that the angels were involved in the creative work of God in anything at all. The only way
to understand that verse is to realise that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirt - and none else - spoke in
creation to bring man into existence.

The point becomes all the more clearer when we do a word study of the Biblical languages - Hebrew, Greek and
Aramaic. Concisely, you will find that whatever the Father was, the Son and the Holy Spirit were in essence. So,
the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are together called "God" (Elohim) and "LORD" (Jehovah/Yahweh). Jesus was not
a created being - otherwise He could not have been the Creator of the world and all that is in it. Neither did He
creat anything on His own initiative without the involvement of the Father and the Spirit. Jesus Christ was and is
God all through eternity; but He became Man in redemptive titles.

What the world wants us as Christians to do is renounce what is clearly taught in the Bible. But no matter what
anyone thinks, as long as the OT and NT have always carried the message that the One true and living God is
and has always been the only Trinity, I'm happy to testify to what the Scriptures say.

@gwaine
thanks alot for the post. i learnt few things from it.

Welcome. More to follow on enquiries.

Hello there i hope this will be helpful:

The Trinity

[Sorry its quite long. Necessary points need to be stressed. So hard to make a very important doctrine short]

The God revealed in the Bible is a God that is triune. That is, God is three persons yet only one. Remember that. God is not three persons and three gods. No. That is tritheism or polytheism. That is heretical and scripturally unsound. If you seem puzzled and find it enigmatic. If it seems logically irreconcilable to you. You got it. The Trinity is a mystery to us finite and limited human beings. But that’s who God is as revealed in the Bible. John Wesley, the founder of Methodism once said: “Bring me a worm that can comprehend a man and I will show you a man that can comprehend the Trinity.”

God is infinite. Our minds are not. This is where our humility is called. We know, as a Christian, that the Bible is God’s revelation to us. Everything in it is inspired down to the last jot and title. We know that in it God is speaking to us in written form. Whenever logic and God’s revelation seems to collide. It is God’s revelation that should prevail in our hearts and minds.

Now, the Trinity. Some contend that this is not found in the Bible. So they say that this doctrine is unbiblical [as if to say that everything must appear in word in the Bible for it to be biblical]. The word is not found in the Bible but the idea is there. “Ironside” does not appear in word in the Bible but Ironside was in the mind of God when He said that He wants all men to be saved.

Those who are in the oneness group could easily write off the Tri-unity of God in the episode of the baptism of our Lord by appealing to God’s omnipresence by saying: “There is not three distinct persons here but only one in three manifestations. God can be everywhere, He is the same person who is in the water, yet because He can be everywhere, He is also the same person speaking from heaven and descending like a dove. No Trinity.”

But they cannot circumvent the doctrine of the Trinity so clearly laid out in Matthew 28:19:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”

Here we see the distinctiveness of persons. The verse has the definite article ‘THE’ before every person named. ‘THE Father, THE Son, THE Holy Spirit’ This means the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. [There is a Greek rule that says: "the presence of the article identifies, the absence of the article qualifies"]

So there is not one person but three. But notice this distinct persons take up one name.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the[b] name[/b] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”

‘Name’ is in the singular. Name in the Bible is the expression of what the person named is in being. His name describes His nature or essence and character. These distinct persons take up one nature or essence and character. So if the Father is God, the Son is also God and also the Holy Spirit. If the Father is Lord, the Son is also Lord and also the Holy Spirit. If the Father is Holy, the Son is also Holy as well as the Spirit and etc.

Everything seems logical right at this point. But wait till you see another revelation from the Bible:

De 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!

That’s the “Nicean” Creed of the Israelites. “Lord” here is the name of God given to Moses: YHWH. “YHWH is one” the text says……. "the Lord is ONE", yet ETERNALLY EXISTING IN THREE PERSONS-THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT [Matthew 28:19]. Don’t try to figure it out you’ll lose your mind. Accept it by faith. St. Augustine once said: “to not believe in the Trinity is in danger of losing his salvation. To those who try to understand completely the Trinity is in danger of losing his mind.”

DARKCHILD, Declare your religion please.

Lioness,

why do u ask?

Anyway, I am one who submits to One God. Go figure.

That doesn't say much - submission to One God is known in Christianity, Islam, Bahá'ísm and a few others. I knew from the onset that Darkchild is most probably Muslim - judging from other threads as well.

He's a Muslim - I'm 95% certain.

KAG,

dont bet ur life on it. U might just have it no mo'.

Why are you being defensive already and i havent even started yet.

I asked an innocent question, because you put this thread and apparently your not a christain.
So if you let me know where your coming from, i could likely my explanation to colaborate with your religion. Simple.

But if your ashamed of your religon, then why start this thread.

Darkchild:

Lioness,

why do u ask?

Anyway, I am one who submits to One God. Go figure.

@Darkchild,
                 You have not found any xtian that can explain it to you because in Catechism we were thought it is a MYSTERY which means something that cannot be explained or fully understood.

Just know that The Father, The Son and The holyspirit are  the three persons in one God ( The holy trinity).

and she has spoken

Gwaine, Ironside et all. Thank you all so much for your responses and in also trying to help me to understand the 'Trinity' from your points of view.

I appreciate the fact that Christians, some not all, have been made to believe doctrine of the Trinity is incomprehensible. I am also aware that the proponents suppose this to be a foundation of christianity and also that we cannot begin to imagine the majesty and glory God (TRUE!!!), so we cannot fathom his nature and being. (TRUE again!!). However, even in the Bible God has clearly revealed himself through His Word as a mighty, unitary being, the great first cause of all things, having no equal, no predecessor and no successor. ''Hear, O Israel, the LORD your God is One" (Deut. 6:4).

U know what? For over 4000 years, those who worshipped Him and trusted Him had no hint, no surmise, no suggestion that he was other than the single, unitary God He declared Himself to be.

So how did this belief about the Trinity begin? Well it saterted with a doctrine formulated in the 4th century to describe the view of some leading churchmen concerning the nature and relationship of God, Jesus and the holy Spirit. It was enunciated in a series of creeds: The Nicene Creed (325 ad), The Nicaeno-Constantinopolitan Creed (381 ad), and the Athanasian Creed (ca. 5th century ad). It took various forms and used multitudes of words so complex and enigmatic it is incomprehensible. Some Christians consider "trinity" simply to imply belief in God, Jesus and the holy Spirit — a broad platform all Christians can endorse. Differently, but still quite simply, the first use of this word in early Christian writings referred merely to the existence of "God, his Word, and his Wisdom" (Theophilus of Antioch, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 2, page 201). But as the doctrine evolved in the 4th-6th centuries, it became much more mysterious. It asserted that God is actually composed of three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, all co-equal and co-eternal.

The Scriptural truth, on the other hand, is neither mysterious nor incomprehensible: God is one person, his son Jesus is a second person, and the holy Spirit is not a person at all. It is the spirit, power and influence of God. Jesus is subordinate to his Heavenly Father. God existed from eternity, but there was a time before the creation of his son Jesus when God was alone.

Again, according to it it clearly states that God and Jesus are not co - equal.  In every case, where God and Jesus are referred to in one context, Jesus is subordinate, and the Father is superior. for eg.
"Why callest thou me good? None is good, save one, that is, God." (Luke 18:19)
"My Father is Greater than I" (John 14:28)
"The Head of Christ is God" (1 Corinthians 11:3)
"[Jesus] sat down on the right hand of God" (Hebrews 10:12)
"Then shall the Son also himself be subject ,  that God may be all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28)
Perhaps most telling of all is that Jesus recognizes God as his own God -- his superior, to whom he renders adoration, worship and praise (Matthew 27:46, John 20:17, Ephesians 1:17, Revelation1:6). No scripture says Jesus is co-equal!

So why the Trinity I dare to ask? Where did this doctrine come from? When did it come? For what Reason? How did it take hold? Research says it developed probably as a result of an over-zealous response to the vital gnostic heresies which began to surface even in John's day, and afflicted the church for about two centuries. Gnostics proposed that Jesus was not actually the Messiah — some say he was an apparition, or a materialization, others a simple man possessed for a time by the Christ — but all agreed that the Anointed, the Messiah, the Christ, did not suffer and die on the cross.

This fundamentally undercuts the Truth of Christianity, and against such views were John's strong warnings in 1 John 1:22,23, 4:1-3, 2 John 7. Indeed, these epistles of John and even the Gospel of John, read with the backdrop of these heresies in mind, take on a fresh and deeper meaning than ever before. It is for this reason that John was forceful in affirming that the very Jesus "which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled" (1 John 1:1) was the very Word of life who existed from ages before with the Father, the agent of all the Father's creative work from the beginning. This very one did indeed suffer and die on the cross for our sins. John was there when it happened, a first-hand witness. "And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe" (John19:35).

As John passed from the scene the gnostic heresies grew in strength, causing a severe pressure within the early Christian community. In combatting this error, and in emphasizing the significance,uniqueness and importance of Jesus, the very Son of God himself, it was natural to attach more and more weight to him, even over-emphasizing his office and majesty beyond that allowed in the scriptures. Little by little a greater and greater image of him was put forward, resulting in such erroreous views as Sabellius put forward in the 3rd century, claiming that Jesus was but an expression of the one God, and not a lesser though glorious separate being. This was generally rejected, but in the end a sad compromise was reached which left distorted the real verities regarding Christ, the highly honored Son of the Most High God.

In conclusion, the word Trinity is nowhere found in the scriptures, not one of the Apostolic Fathers (Clement, Barnabas, Ignatius, Mathetes, Polycarp, Papias, Justin Martyr) mentioned this doctrine in any of the 1200 pages of text they left us. When the word "Trinity" first appeared in Christian writings it meant nothing like it does today. It simply implied the existence of God, his Word, and Wisdom.

Arguments butressed from an article published by Theology Students in the USA.

@Darkchild child,
                          Even if you continue confusing yourself like you are doing now, you will not fully understand it. It is a mystery and that's the fact.

Edygirl,

Is that all u have to say? By the way thank you. And may God continue to increase my Knowledge. Amen.

Amen.

Darkchild,


Interesting!!!

Christian Brethren, counter argument plssss.

@edygirl,

so many thing had been learnt on this religion column of nairaland. i for one had learnt so many things but i still believe a more subtle and civil way of dealing with issues that has to be dialogued is that when we do not have a response to a yearning keeping quiet should be the best thing, and derogatory statement that lead to LOUD shout as it has been in several threads.

Just an advice please keep civil.

Peace

and derogatory statement that lead to LOUD shout as it has been in several threads.


and derogatory statements that lead to LOUD shout should be avoided as it had been in several threads.

sorry about those missing words

peace

Isaho,

Thank you for those mature words!!! I have been saying that the insults on this forum is getting too much. We are all here to learn from each other. And that should be the underlining reasons for the threads.

God bless u my Brother!

You guys amuse me.

When Muslim apologists use derogatory language, we don't see the likes of ISAHO or blackconjee.
Instead, some of you will applaud them and encourage their continued derision unabated.

When Christians serve them in the same lingo (which I'm not encouraging), then the following pour
out from the likes of ISAHO et al:

# keep quiet

# don't use derogatory statements

# don't shout

# not in this thread or others. . .

then -

# you Christians should turn the other cheek

# so that we Muslims can keep bashing you

# and insulting your beliefs and doctrines

# and shouting

# and applauding ourselves for attacking your religion

# unabated

# until you Christians start again. . .

And then -

# when you Christians start again

# we Muslims wish Ajisafe would hurry up

# and come with his boiling vitriol and derision

# or we appeal to atheists and skeptics

# or just resign with a whimpers and snivels.

Why is it that you Muslims don't caution your brethren about the way they discuss on the Forum until you get the same reaction from Christians? If you can't stand up to take the heat you started, don't dish it out to others. Try not waiting to be told what to do before they tell you - it would make the Forum a place where all can learn without necessarily getting miffed at one another.

Am still asking DarkChild to declare his religion

@Darkchild,

First, you must understand that not all who call themselves 'Christians' actually believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, nor even believe in God at all. This may surprise you, but it is true. The article published by 'Theology Students in the USA' which you referred to in your post, aligns much with Unitarianism. Quoting from a BBC Religion & Ethics webpage, among the several things believed in and held by this group (and several like them) in soundbites are:
________________________________#

¤ God
Not all Unitarians believe in God or even use the word. Some find the word 'God' meaningless, others believe it is too burdened with wrong ideas to be useful.

¤ God is one
Unitarianism rejects the mainstream Christian doctrine of the Trinity, or three Persons in one God, made up of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They typically believe that God is one being - God the Father, or Mother. Jesus was simply a man, not the incarnate deity. For some, notions of the Holy Spirit offer a closer fit with their understanding of the divine.
________________________________ #

Let's observe this: if Unitarians do not all believe in God, does it not contradict their position to yet believe in 'God the Father or Mother'?

Continuing. . .

________________________________ #

¤ God the Father or Mother
Unitarians may accept many ideas of God as valid - for example:
       - the principle that unites all things
       - the ground of existence
       - the source of original and ongoing creation
       - the ultimate good
       - the ideals and aspirations of humanity
       - a loving (parental) power with which human beings can have a personal relationship (some see this power as masculine, others as feminine)
       - the still small voice within each of us
       - a great mystery

¤ Jesus Christ
Many Unitarians, particularly in North America, do not identify themselves as Christian. Those Unitarians who continue to regard Jesus as central to their faith will typically hold some or all of the following views about him:
       - Jesus was a man, not God
       - Jesus was not physically resurrected
       - Jesus was a Jewish prophet with a mission of reconciliation
       - Jesus was filled with divine inspiration
       - Jesus is a supreme example of living with integrity and compassion
       - Jesus' life is reflective of the divine potential in all of us
Unitarians maintain that Jesus didn't think of himself as God - and although he sometimes seems to speak of himself as God in the Bible, they are inclined to say that this is based on a misunderstanding of the text and the culture of his time.
Jesus did not survive in a physical sense. He survives in a poetic or metaphorical sense in that his spirit lives on in the churches and believers inspired by him.

¤ Evil
Unitarians don't believe in original sin. Human beings have not fallen from grace and are not dependent on God's intervention to grant them salvation.
__________________________________#

Now let's discuss the foregoing. Take evil for instance: is the Unitarian concept of 'evil' the same as the Christian or the Islamic understanding - that we do not have to depend on God's intervention to grant us salvation? Or, take the concept of 'God the Father or Mother' - is that what Christianity (or even Islam) teaches about God? The answers are obvious.

The point is, when taking a look at important doctrines of the Christian faith, one should be willing to base their ideas and inferences on the Bible - which is the centripetal and collective point of reference among true Christians. Not all "Theology Students in the USA" actually believe in the Bible in much the same way that Unitarians do not believe in God or even use the Word, though they may often refer to themselves as "Churches" while rejecting any appellation addressing them as "Christian". Isn't that all quaint? But it's the state of affairs that exists today. Hence, anyone trying to quote these 'theological' losers in support of whatever idea they are pursuing, might as well find in their theology every bit of quote against the Trinity on the one hand, and every bit of quote for a feminine idea of God ('the Mother'), and every bit or quote for whatever goes against the Bible and mainstream Christian teaching. This is the reason why you'll find such people pushing the homosexual agenda in the 'Church', and people would be caught unawares and point to them as the prime example that the 'Church' supports homosexuality.

I just needed to clarify that your sources do not speak for the Christian Church - and the example of Unitarianism attests to that.

4get_me,

Thanks for informing me that their are various 'types' of christians. This then poses another question, how can we, Non - christians, know who practice the 'Real' christianity?

Lioness,

to answer ur Question, I am a Muslim.

It had to take interpol to get it off ur mouth.

Anyway,

Darkchild:

4get_me b]Lioness[/b],

to answer your Question, I am a Muslim.

Darkchild,

There are different 'types' of Christians in just the same way as there are different types of Muslims.

Essentially, authentic Christianity believe in God, that the Bible is the Word of God, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Saviour of the world; and true Christians put their faith in Jesus as Lord, and seek to apply the Word of God in their lives in pursuit of holiness and righteousness.

From the above, Unitarianism does not hold a stable belief in God, Jesus or the Bible - and therefore is not regarded as authentically 'Christian'.

Lioness,

out of curiousity, why did u want to know my religion? Honestly.