I will first and firmost request that my response to your post be not taken as an attack on your person. I have shown earlier on how theological debates quite naturally deteriorate to dissensions. It should be expected that wherever this discuss leads, all participants will be mature enough not to take it personal.

Alwaystrue:
Hello OP,
Curiousity helps us to better learn and understand and know more about the word of God. The thirst is very important.

Very true. And I also sensed a sincere desire to learn in the OP, thus my dedicating effort to responding to him.

Alwaystrue:
Grace helps us to be what God originally intended for us to be:
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. SO when we come to Christ we just allow Him to do what He has already done, through us.

This is true but not the total truth. The grace of God seen in Christ is manifested in many other ways than just a means "to do" thing. See:

1. Grace can denote attractiveness, winsomeness. Lk 4:22; Col 4:6
2. It can mean God's benevolence. Jn 1:16; Eph 2:8
3. Goodwill. Act 24:27; 2Cor8:4; Eph 4:28
4. Ability, enabling power. Rom 12:6; 1 Cor15:10.
5. Gratitude. 1 Cor 15:57.

Unfortunately your definition of grace is limited to number 4. The essential teachings of the Pauline gospel was that grace is all that Christ has done for us. It has nothing in it for man to do.

Alwaystrue:
Many things were not emphasized in the New Testament that Christ gave except for us to hear him and abide in Him. Every other thing falls into place. Not more are you told what to do like a kid but you are expected like a responsible adult to know what to do in love.

Very true.

But we have to be a bit circumspect with what we claim to hear from God as this is the source of new revelations that form the essential ingredient of damnable heresies we hear today. Example: a man claims he is not a preacher but a man of God. Therefore, whatever he does receives heavens endorsement. While everything is not written in scriptures, everything we need to know is there. Including the place of tithing in the New Testament church.

Alwaystrue:
That was basically what all the old laws were hinged on. Christ simply gave us the big picture rather than the bits and pieces which the OT laws were trying to piece together.

The OT were a shadow. The real substance is in the new. Christ's apostles spoke clearly of changes that the death of Christ has brought our way. We must beware of any teaching that gives the impression that grace is a means to keep OT laws. It is not. Rather, grace is Jesus Christ fulfilling those laws and bequeathing its righteous requirement to those who believe in the NT, Roman 8:4. Its simple really. The OT has 613 laws. Neither the Jews or anyone else could keep them. Christ walking the earth, kept those laws perfectly. Grace is our entering into the done work of Christ. Grace is NOT keeping the laws of Moses in God's strength. That will be turning scriptures on it's head.

Alwaystrue:
Both Jesus and Apostle Paul spoke about Tithe actually. They spoke about offering and other things as well.
Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone

One of the biggest disservice we do to scriptures is to quote it our of context. The context of Matthew 23:23 meant that Christ was speaking to Jews under the Mosaic laws. He could never have told them not to tithe. That passage opens with this statement:

Matthew 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Therefore our Lord was speaking to men under the law who were meant to keep it. He was not speaking to Christians to tithe.

Tithing is encouraged today so as to serve as ministers remuneration but Jesus actually told us how ministers should be remunerated and tithing is not one of them:

Luke 10:2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest... 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house. 10:8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:

In verses 7 and 8, Christ shows clearly that the minister's salary should be from "whatsoever is set before you" or "such things as they give". In other words, ministers should live off free will offering.

Alwaystrue:
I Corinthians 9:9-14
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
[/color]

While Jesus did mention tithes, Paul in the above scripture did not. If Paul had been encouraging the Corinthians to tithe, he would have be stoned to death legitimately by the Jews because the temple was still standing then and only Levites could collect tithes in those days.

However, Paul did liken the OT support for ministers to NT support for our ministers to instruct us that it is our duty to sustain those people who minister spiritual things to us, materially. He was certainly not talking about tithe but free will support as mentioned by Christ in the earlier scripture. This support Paul himself benefitted from as recorded in Phillipians 4.

Alwaystrue:
Christ had every opportunity to cancel tithe in the first verse but instead he even added other things to be done.

Christ did cancel the tithe. Jesus death and resurrection brought an end to the Mosaic laws, including tithing:

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Alwaystrue:
The very first tither gave his tithe for the service of God through a priest, when God gave the command to dedicate the tithe it was to those who ministered at the temple for the service they serve, when Jesus gave the word to tithe he stated that it should be done with proper understanding and when Apostle Paul spoke about the way ministers of old lived of the things of temple and altar it was also obvious what he was talking about.

The very first tither gave a tithe to a Priest. True. But no scripture records he did so "for the service of God". Like I have shown earlier to the OP, Heb 7 tells why he did it: to enact the future greatness of the Priesthood of Christ.

When Jesus spoke of tithing , he never said it was to be for the service of God Matthew 23:23.

Paul did talk about support for the service of God, but he did not mention tithes.

Alwaystrue:
When you have love, you would know that those who teach you in the word should be partakers of all goods things (Galatians 6:6). Paul said those taught in the word should share with their teacher in all good things not even some. Complete understanding of the old testament and new testament helps us to rightly divide.

Love engenders giving not tithing. There is a lot of difference in this. Sharing with with ministers doesn't mean tithing. And rightly dividing scriptures is so very essential. It would include putting the old where the old belongs and restricting the new to the new. You cannot put new wine in old wine skin.

Alwaystrue:
The premise is what is the essence, when you understand that then you know why you do what you do.

I agree too. We however must be careful what we teach lest people begin to understand falsehood.

Alwaystrue:
In the this period of the fulness of grace we enjoy in Christ, nothing is a must because Christ expects we do all things in love and not by force. That is why many things Christ told us was more of what we ought to/should do and not necessarily what we must do.

Again, I agree. Just that tithers are not completely honest when they say they are not teaching tithes as compulsory. Truth is that in most church organizations, tithing is by force. That's the reason for tithe cards, etc.

Alwaystrue:
This topic has been over-flogged on this forum, if you search well enough you would see many posts and debates on it infact. You would get a better and balanced view therefore.

It sure has. But some of us never tire discussing it as long as we have learners out there and dubious people looking for ways to defraud others.

The truth is that modern tithe practice is a fraud. It has no basis in scripture; it's simply used as a means to make money. Example: from Genesis to Revelation, the biblical tithe was never money. Under Moses it was food stuff. For Abraham it was war spoils. When and how it became money is the eight wonder of the world.

The second point here is that tithing the consequence of a backslidden church. Every time God's church looses focus, it begins to worship Mammon. It happened with Eli's boys. It happened in Jeremiah's days. Jesus lamented it in scriptures. Paul wept over it in Phillipians 3. In Acts, the apostles rebuked Simon for it. In the days of John Hus, he christened it Simony. In Luther days it was the rot of Rome. In our days, it's the disgrace of the church. We all are witnesses to Ayo Oritsejsfor's shame playing out in the Nigerian scene.

In conclusion, no one is obligated to tithe today. If however you wish to continue tithing, it's well and good with me. However know that your action has no basis in scriptures; you are simply engaging in a legalistic ritual.

Cheers.

WinsomeX: I will first and firmost request that my response to your post be not taken as an attack on your person. I have shown earlier on how theological debates quite naturally deteriorate to dissensions. It should be expected that wherever this discuss leads, all participants will be mature enough not to take it personal.



Very true. And I also sensed a sincere desire to learn in the OP, thus my dedicating effort to responding to him.



This is true but not the total truth. The grace of God seen in Christ is manifested in many other ways than just a means "to do" thing. See:

1. Grace can denote attractiveness, winsomeness. Lk 4:22; Col 4:6
2. It can mean God's benevolence. Jn 1:16; Eph 2:8
3. Goodwill. Act 24:27; 2Cor8:4; Eph 4:28
4. Ability, enabling power. Rom 12:6; 1 Cor15:10.
5. Gratitude. 1 Cor 15:57.

Unfortunately your definition of grace is limited to number 4. The essential teachings of the Pauline gospel was that grace is all that Christ has done for us. It has nothing in it for man to do.



Very true.

But we have to be a bit circumspect with what we claim to hear from God as this is the source of new revelations that form the essential ingredient of damnable heresies we hear today. Example: a man claims he is not a preacher but a man of God. Therefore, whatever he does receives heavens endorsement. While everything is not written in scriptures, everything we need to know is there. Including the place of tithing in the New Testament church.



The OT were a shadow. The real substance is in the new. Christ's apostles spoke clearly of changes that the death of Christ has brought our way. We must beware of any teaching that gives the impression that grace is a means to keep OT laws. It is not. Rather, grace is Jesus Christ fulfilling those laws and bequeathing its righteous requirement to those who believe in the NT, Roman 8:4. Its simple really. The OT has 613 laws. Neither the Jews or anyone else could keep them. Christ walking the earth, kept those laws perfectly. Grace is our entering into the done work of Christ. Grace is NOT keeping the laws of Moses in God's strength. That will be turning scriptures on it's head.



One of the biggest disservice we do to scriptures is to quote it our of context. The context of Matthew 23:23 meant that Christ was speaking to Jews under the Mosaic laws. He could never have told them not to tithe. That passage opens with this statement:

Matthew 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Therefore our Lord was speaking to men under the law who were meant to keep it. He was not speaking to Christians to tithe.

Tithing is encouraged today so as to serve as ministers remuneration but Jesus actually told us how ministers should be remunerated and tithing is not one of them:

Luke 10:2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest... 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house. 10:8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:

In verses 7 and 8, Christ shows clearly that the minister's salary should be from "whatsoever is set before you" or "such things as they give". In other words, ministers should live off free will offering.



While Jesus did mention tithes, Paul in the above scripture did not. If Paul had been encouraging the Corinthians to tithe, he would have be stoned to death legitimately by the Jews because the temple was still standing then and only Levites could collect tithes in those days.

However, Paul did liken the OT support for ministers to NT support for our ministers to instruct us that it is our duty to sustain those people who minister spiritual things to us, materially. He was certainly not talking about tithe but free will support as mentioned by Christ in the earlier scripture. This support Paul himself benefitted from as recorded in Phillipians 4.



Christ did cancel the tithe. Jesus death and resurrection brought an end to the Mosaic laws, including tithing:

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.



The very first tither gave a tithe to a Priest. True. But no scripture records he did so "for the service of God". Like I have shown earlier to the OP, Heb 7 tells why he did it: to enact the future greatness of the Priesthood of Christ.

When Jesus spoke of tithing , he never said it was to be for the service of God Matthew 23:23.

Paul did talk about support for the service of God, but he did not mention tithes.



Love engenders giving not tithing. There is a lot of difference in this. Sharing with with ministers doesn't mean tithing. And rightly dividing scriptures is so very essential. It would include putting the old where the old belongs and restricting the new to the new. You cannot put new wine in old wine skin.



I agree too. We however must be careful what we teach lest people begin to understand falsehood.



Again, I agree. Just that tithers are not completely honest when they say they are not teaching tithes as compulsory. Truth is that in most church organizations, tithing is by force. That's the reason for tithe cards, etc.



It sure has. But some of us never tire discussing it as long as we have learners out there and dubious people looking for ways to defraud others.

The truth is that modern tithe practice is a fraud. It has no basis in scripture; it's simply used as a means to make money. Example: from Genesis to Revelation, the biblical tithe was never money. Under Moses it was food stuff. For Abraham it was war spoils. When and how it became money is the eight wonder of the world.

The second point here is that tithing the consequence of a backslidden church. Every time God's church looses focus, it begins to worship Mammon. It happened with Eli's boys. It happened in Jeremiah's days. Jesus lamented it in scriptures. Paul wept over it in Phillipians 3. In Acts, the apostles rebuked Simon for it. In the days of John Hus, he christened it Simony. In Luther days it was the rot of Rome. In our days, it's the disgrace of the church. We all are witnesses to Ayo Oritsejsfor's shame playing out in the Nigerian scene.

In conclusion, no one is obligated to tithe today. If however you wish to continue tithing, it's well and good with me. However know that your action has no basis in scriptures; you are simply engaging in a legalistic ritual.

Cheers.

pls create a special blog for. this post next time

smhh y am I even here

@WinsomeX,
Glad you derived some peace from dissecting my post. All I said in my post is true and entirely true. However since you seem happy to always leave main matters and focus on mine when I post, I am glad to help ease your stress.
Nothing personal, you always rather take it as such hence the need to always have a say at my post. Don't worry I know.

Cheers.

asalimpo: What's the motive behind questions like these?
Na.ked greed and selfishness.
There's no basis for it.
If in d old and inferior testament
God's people paid ten percent
how much ought God's people to pay in a new and better covenant , not instituted on the blood of rams and goats?
Think!



Drop tht dough with gladness and stop tryg to hold back.

pay for what, what exactly are you paying for when jesus has already paid the prize

Alwaystrue: @WinsomeX,
Glad you derived some peace from dissecting my post. All I said in my post is true and entirely true. However since you seem happy to always leave main matters and focus on mine when I post, I am glad to help ease your stress.
Nothing personal, you always rather take it as such hence the need to always have a say at my post. Don't worry I know.
Cheers.

I take that as your own way of saying "Thank You".

To which I will graciously answer "You're welcome".

WinsomeX: I will first and firmost request that my response to your post be not taken as an attack on your person. I have shown earlier on how theological debates quite naturally deteriorate to dissensions. It should be expected that wherever this discuss leads, all participants will be mature enough not to take it personal

Alwaystrue:

Hello OP,
Curiousity helps us to better learn and understand and know more about the word of God. The thirst is very important.

Grace helps us to be what God originally intended for us to be:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. SO when we come to Christ we just allow Him to do what He has already done, through us.

Many things were not emphasized in the New Testament that Christ gave except for us to hear him and abide in Him. Every other thing falls into place. Not more are you told what to do like a kid but you are expected like a responsible adult to know what to do in love. That was basically what all the old laws were hinged on. Christ simply gave us the big picture rather than the bits and pieces which the OT laws were trying to piece together.

Both Jesus and Apostle Paul spoke about Tithe actually. They spoke about offering and other things as well.

Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone

I Corinthians 9:9-14
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.


Christ had every opportunity to cancel tithe in the first verse but instead he even added other things to be done. The very first tither gave his tithe for the service of God through a priest, when God gave the command to dedicate the tithe it was to those who ministered at the temple for the service they serve, when Jesus gave the word to tithe he stated that it should be done with proper understanding and when Apostle Paul spoke about the way ministers of old lived of the things of temple and altar it was also obvious what he was talking about.

When you have love, you would know that those who teach you in the word should be partakers of all goods things (Galatians 6:6). Paul said those taught in the word should share with their teacher in all good things not even some. Complete understanding of the old testament and new testament helps us to rightly divide.

The premise is what is the essence, when you understand that then you know why you do what you do.
In the this period of the fulness of grace we enjoy in Christ, nothing is a must because Christ expects we do all things in love and not by force. That is why many things Christ told us was more of what we ought to/should do and not necessarily what we must do.

This topic has been over-flogged on this forum, if you search well enough you would see many posts and debates on it infact. You would get a better and balanced view therefore.

You forgot to include in your presentation how biblical tithes which was strictly of agric produce was twisted to mean money from income by modern day hustlers.