frank317:


What's this? You confidently come here and say you don't care about other gods, if you think that statement is wise why should anyone care about you own God?

You can't pick out one God whom a completely different culture/race/country than yours believe in out of the more than 1000 gods and expect to have a meaningful discussion.

You have no authority over any God, except the one in you head.

If you think the ten commandment is what guides our morality then you really have to rethink. Did the ancient Chinese or Africa read the ten commandment? How then did we find moral people among them?

How can a set of people, say Hindus have the moral code set by your creator and yet not know him?

I don't care about Gods, If you have a problem with me saying it then what is your beef with it?

Again, Morality is written on our hearts, because we are not perfect, the moral codes that each ancient came up with have been flawed
10 commandment serves as a cross-check guide for how we should and interact with fellow and God.

frank317:


My friend is good, but I am not. You are not perfect... Don't know if you are good though.

You can peel of your knees praying all your life.... You will never attain perfection. As usual... You and your God will fail once again.

You say "no one is perfect", i say and my Bible says "no one is good". You somehow think it is okay for no one to be perfect, but not okay for no one to be good. There is yet a problem i have with every man being his own moral law giver. On what basis is it okay for no one to be perfect? Why do you think i am not perfect?

johnydon22:


Chased men out of eden so they wouldnt eat from the tree of life and live forever then turns around nd promise man he will live forever after he is dead.

Nnaa people can believe things oooo.

Tree of life and tree of knowledge.. none is even anywhere now.

Talking snakes with hands and feet that got cursed then lost its hands and feet..(they didnt tell us exactly which specie of snake it was tho, so how come every specie of snake have no limbs)

Then a 450ft boat harbour millions of animals and food to last them a year.

Sees the whole world was bad and only one man was good but didnt consider the children and pregnant women.

Talking donkeys... you can count forever

choi their is nothing people will not believe shaa

lol... a drama God indeed. But dont blame him for sending man out and not allowing him to eat from the tree of life again. You know he is temperamental, he wasnt thinking then, that was why he sent Adam out. it was when he cooled his flaming temperature that he decided to promise man another after life, but then he coudnt remember where the tree was (you know he also forgets things just like man) so got another alternative which was to kill his motherless son that was himself.

on the curse on snake.. even earthworms were snakes those days na.

tevinsolt:


I don't care about Gods, If you have a problem with me saying it then what is your beef with it?

ok, i get it. was just pointing out the fallacy in the declaration.

Again, Morality is written on our hearts, because we are not perfect, the moral codes that each ancient came up with have been flawed
10 commandment serves as a cross-check guide for how we should and interact with fellow and God.

Ok, morality is written in our hearts but we need to the ten commandments to guide us and remind us what is already in our heart?

we are not perfect i guess you need to ask your fellow christian @image to show you how your God made him perfect

Image123:


You say "no one is perfect", i say and my Bible says "no one is good". You somehow think it is okay for no one to be perfect, but not okay for no one to be good. There is yet a problem i have with every man being his own moral law giver. On what basis is it okay for no one to be perfect? Why do you think i am not perfect?

no human is perfect and because you are human, i know you are not and can never be perfect.

Yes, i say no one is perfect but i know people can be good. being good does not equate being perfect. Your Bible says no one is good, it lied, i have seen so many good people.

frank317:


lol... a drama God indeed. But dont blame him for sending man out and not allowing him to eat from the tree of life again. You know he is temperamental, he wasnt thinking then, that was why he sent Adam out. it was when he cooled his flaming temperature that he decided to promise man another after life, but then he coudnt remember where the tree was (you know he also forgets things just like man) so got another alternative which was to kill his motherless son that was himself.

on the curse on snake.. even earthworms were snakes those days na.

The jews sure know how to create one hell of a myth tho...

But i think the greek myth makes a much better story, very thrilling and fascinating than the jewish myth.

and i so love eyptian mythology too...

dalaman:


Same empty rhetoric. Goodness is determined by humans. Reality shows that goodness and morality evolves. Was it not the God of the bible that was telling people to stone enslave others as a good thing. is slavery a good thing? Even the bible moral principles have changed from the old testament to the new testament.

You seem to be totally missing what i am saying. i am not saying that goodness is not being determined by humans, of course we have laws and constitutions. i am saying that goodness(to be more precise, morality) should be and has been determined by God. Your thinking and context is flawed when you say that God was telling people to stone enslave others. Those are not moral principles, kind of punishment is not moral principle. The morality is do not steal, do not kill, do not lie etc. The punishment is not the morality or the moral principle. God still stands and says today do not steal, do not kill, do not lie etc. The punishment varies now. In different societies, there are different punishments for murder or for theft. Jail term is not a good thing, you don't call it a moral principle. That is punishment. Going to jail, execution, hanging, firing squad, electrocution etc are different punishments used today by different constitutions and societies. God wasn't telling people to stone enslave others as a good thing. Israelites were not busy stoning their neighbour gentiles or enslaving them to be moral. You are painting it that way. The Bible moral principles remain the same. The introduction of grace and the deluge of mercy and forgiveness does not remove the fact that sin is still sin, immorality is still immorality, good is still good and evil is still evil. Don't mix up things.

More empty rhetoric that addresses nothing completely.

You seem to be new to that phrase so you are enjoying it. i won't kill your joy, enjoy but remember to learn.

1. Women are not supposed to teach men in church or usurp their authority. Men are more valuable than women and men are head of the women. It goes to say that the woman was created for the man.

"Ephesians 5 22Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything"

Most western societies that believe in the bible have long discarded that principle. They find it offensive when you claim that the man is the head of the woman or that women need to be submissive to men. That is considered as sexism. Gender equality is what is prevalent in most western societies including those that are christain.

2. Jesus advocates that people should be passive.

If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them.

Most Christians have discarded this moral teaching. Non that I know abides by it any where.

3. Believers are not to take each other to court but they are to go to the church to settle their differences. Again most Christians have discarded that moral teaching. (1 Corinthians 6)

Oh i now understand better the sense you meant to convey, thanks. The moral injunctions and principles written inside the bible remain what they are. That people are disobedient to them does not remove from the fact that they are still the right thing and the standard to follow. The Bible verses and instances you quoted remain correct in their proper context. i think i would be derailing the thread by going deep into clarifications but you may open up another avenue or thread for that if you wish.

There are no moral absolutes in the real world. Forget about the world of religion and it's unverifiable claims and stories, in the real world there are no moral absolutes. People do not all have the same standard of goodness. Go to India, Saudi Arabia, Israel and USA all have very different standard of what is good and bad. No moral absolutes anywhere in the world.

There are moral absolutes in God. i do not deny what is happening in the world, rather i advocate what ought to be.

The bible is filled with verse where God told people to kill others because they worship other Gods. You have no feet to stand on here.

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)

No, you are wrong and your comprehension is faulty here. They were not killing others because they worship other Gods. They had neighbouring countries, philistines, assyrians, syrians, egyptians, babylonians etc who were worshipping other gods. Israelites were not going about killing them for that purpose. The command was based on the premise because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God. And that "he" is an Israelite, a fellow jew, who under their law and agreement/covenant/testament was to serve God.
Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
Jos 1:16 And they answered Joshua, saying, All that thou commandest us we will do, and whithersoever thou sendest us, we will go.
Jos 24:24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.
Exo 24:3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.
Neh 10:29 They cleaved to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;

Which God gave them laws? Where you there? Why believe that God gave the Israelites laws and not the Muslims and Hindus that make the same claim as well?

You have a problem of believing what you perceive to be the bad part of the Word of God but you disbelieve the other parts. Now you asking which god, you who just asserted that God commanded people to go and kill others. you just tried to prove that God has changed and that God is immoral. And then in the same breath, you are asking "which God". Fortunately for us, i do not disbelieve the muslims or the hindus. i have simply found a better God, the living God.

johnydon22:


The jews sure know how to create one hell of a myth tho...

But i think the greek myth makes a much better story, very thrilling and fascinating than the jewish myth.

and i so love eyptian mythology too...

ya.. however, i wish Africans documented theirs... as a writer, I would have gotten much content for my stories. Lack of a widely accepted African myth is the reason why our books and movies lack content and creativity. Nothing to look back on and make our imaginations run wild. we have become nothing but boring people who have to depend on active foreigners to feel human. so pathetic.

And here are my fellow Africans telling me if i dont believe in some Jewish myth... I will be in trouble... why dont we create ours and threaten the jews to believe it.

frank317:


no human is perfect and because you are human, i know you are not and can never be perfect.

Yes, i say no one is perfect but i know people can be good. being good does not equate being perfect. Your Bible says no one is good, it lied, i have seen so many good people.

Why do you think humans cannot be perfect? Unfortunately though, your definition of perfection is just not mine, but i will still bother. People can do good deeds, but it does not make them good.

Image123:


Why do you think humans cannot be perfect? Unfortunately though, your definition of perfection is just not mine, but i will still bother. People can do good deeds, but it does not make them good.

You still haven't shown us how the God you believe in is good. What do you mean when you say god is good? Can your God's goodness be tested? If yes, how? If no, then why do you keep spewing that rhetoric? What does it mean to be good?

Image123:


Why do you think humans cannot be perfect? Unfortunately though, your definition of perfection is just not mine, but i will still bother. People can do good deeds, but it does not make them good.

whatever your own definition of perfection is... mine is what is in the dictionary. Anything you read there is my definition of perfect.

The only thing that can make a person good is his deed.

frank317:


ya.. however, i wish Africans documented theirs... as a writer, I would have gotten much content for my stories. Lack of a widely accepted African myth is the reason why our books and movies lack content and creativity. Nothing to look back on and make our imaginations run wild. we have become nothing but boring people who have to depend on active foreigners to feel human. so pathetic.

And here are my fellow Africans telling me if i dont believe in some Jewish myth... I will be in trouble... why dont we create ours and threaten the jews to believe it.

Yeah i am a huge fan of african folklore and mythology...
I take time study that of my people too tho the information available is quite disappointing.

People prefer to stake their lives on the jewish folklore and myths instead and its saddening.

i will post for you what i wrote in a previous thread.

They are all myths and should be regarded as myth as enjoyed as such not placing one as a universal truth and leave the others.

Men africa really lost her identity

here is one of my post to a thread on how africans faired before christianity and other shiitty religions came to us ...
[b]
Honestly i will say that the many replies we get from the Christians here are
utterly disappointing and unintelligent.. .
Have heard many say the white brought education and civilization here, oh
that is correct they brought their OWN education and taught us to ignore
ours.
I am an igbo and i was suprised when i did many research about my tribe
and found high rate of intelligence For intance the ancient igbos had
knowledge in music, medicine, biology, geography, astronomy and
suprisingly have their own mathematics...
the igbos accurately divided the year into 365 days thousands of years
before the julian and gregorian calendar was brougth to us.
the days are divided into 4days in a week (eke, orie, afor and nkwor)
then 7weeks in one moon (month)
then 13months in one year and then a 1day added to it and gives you
precisely 365 days...am sure most igbos here dont know this.
Before the missionaries came to africa, the african society was diverse,
culturally rich, beautiful, morally stable. we had our own unique mythology
and religion, our own gods and ways of worship.
We had unique knowledge and relationship with nature and the world and
our religion taught universal goodness.nobody ever thought or said the
world will rapture or get destroyed, their deep love for mother nature was
unmatched...
Then the white men came; they did many magical things, they can kill you
just by pointing a stick at you(Gun), they did many wondrous things that
were new and strange to us...Then the inferior feelings set it, we saw our
selves as the inferior beings, we started listening to them.
They taught us our gods are demons but the one they brought is the real
universal god, they threatened us with hell fire and the world's ending... We
blindly believed them, they branded our ways demonic endorsed theirs, We
fell for it....I am still wondering how the africa gods which are supposedly
the evil and dark ones never threatened anybody with eternal fire or
damnation or ever threatening to destroy the whole earth, but the one they
brought who they claim to be love and just does that and is proud of
it...Please who is fooling who
we blindly abondoned our ways and embraced his, now we are lost in his
confusion, our own ways are now strange to us...
When are we going to say enough and take back our lives...
Beautiful african utopia is now in darkness claiming to be in the light..
we are blind, blinded by our own ignorance and vainful vanity...
[/b]

You can be morally upright without being religious and vice versa but religion has shaped morality over time.

what you consider moral, even as an atheist may have its roots in religion.

johnydon22:


Yeah i am a huge fan of african folklore and mythology...
I take time study that of my people too tho the information available is quite disappointing.

People prefer to stake their lives on the jewish folklore and myths instead and its saddening.

i will post for you what i wrote in a previous thread.

They are all myths and should be regarded as myth as enjoyed as such not placing one as a universal truth and leave the others.

Men africa really lost her identity

here is one of my post to a thread on how africans faired before christianity and other shiitty religions came to us ...
[b]
Honestly i will say that the many replies we get from the Christians here are
utterly disappointing and unintelligent.. .
Have heard many say the white brought education and civilization here, oh
that is correct they brought their OWN education and taught us to ignore
ours.
I am an igbo and i was suprised when i did many research about my tribe
and found high rate of intelligence For intance the ancient igbos had
knowledge in music, medicine, biology, geography, astronomy and
suprisingly have their own mathematics...
the igbos accurately divided the year into 365 days thousands of years
before the julian and gregorian calendar was brougth to us.
the days are divided into 4days in a week (eke, orie, afor and nkwor)
then 7weeks in one moon (month)
then 13months in one year and then a 1day added to it and gives you
precisely 365 days...am sure most igbos here dont know this.
Before the missionaries came to africa, the african society was diverse,
culturally rich, beautiful, morally stable. we had our own unique mythology
and religion, our own gods and ways of worship.
We had unique knowledge and relationship with nature and the world and
our religion taught universal goodness.nobody ever thought or said the
world will rapture or get destroyed, their deep love for mother nature was
unmatched...
Then the white men came; they did many magical things, they can kill you
just by pointing a stick at you(Gun), they did many wondrous things that
were new and strange to us...Then the inferior feelings set it, we saw our
selves as the inferior beings, we started listening to them.
They taught us our gods are demons but the one they brought is the real
universal god, they threatened us with hell fire and the world's ending... We
blindly believed them, they branded our ways demonic endorsed theirs, We
fell for it....I am still wondering how the africa gods which are supposedly
the evil and dark ones never threatened anybody with eternal fire or
damnation or ever threatening to destroy the whole earth, but the one they
brought who they claim to be love and just does that and is proud of
it...Please who is fooling who
we blindly abondoned our ways and embraced his, now we are lost in his
confusion, our own ways are now strange to us...
When are we going to say enough and take back our lives...
Beautiful african utopia is now in darkness claiming to be in the light..
we are blind, blinded by our own ignorance and vainful vanity...
[/b]

Wow... That was beautiful and insightful

WE HAD OUR OWN TYPE OF DEMOCRACY AND WE HAD OUR OWN ALPHABETS CALLED NSIBIDI



IGBO IS THE MOST SOPHISTICATED RACE IN SUB SAHARAN AFRICA

johnydon22:


Yeah i am a huge fan of african folklore and mythology...
I take time study that of my people too tho the information available is quite disappointing.

People prefer to stake their lives on the jewish folklore and myths instead and its saddening.

i will post for you what i wrote in a previous thread.

They are all myths and should be regarded as myth as enjoyed as such not placing one as a universal truth and leave the others.

Men africa really lost her identity

here is one of my post to a thread on how africans faired before christianity and other shiitty religions came to us ...
[b]
Honestly i will say that the many replies we get from the Christians here are
utterly disappointing and unintelligent.. .
Have heard many say the white brought education and civilization here, oh
that is correct they brought their OWN education and taught us to ignore
ours.
I am an igbo and i was suprised when i did many research about my tribe
and found high rate of intelligence For intance the ancient igbos had
knowledge in music, medicine, biology, geography, astronomy and
suprisingly have their own mathematics...
the igbos accurately divided the year into 365 days thousands of years
before the julian and gregorian calendar was brougth to us.
the days are divided into 4days in a week (eke, orie, afor and nkwor)
then 7weeks in one moon (month)
then 13months in one year and then a 1day added to it and gives you
precisely 365 days...am sure most igbos here dont know this.
Before the missionaries came to africa, the african society was diverse,
culturally rich, beautiful, morally stable. we had our own unique mythology
and religion, our own gods and ways of worship.
We had unique knowledge and relationship with nature and the world and
our religion taught universal goodness.nobody ever thought or said the
world will rapture or get destroyed, their deep love for mother nature was
unmatched...
Then the white men came; they did many magical things, they can kill you
just by pointing a stick at you(Gun), they did many wondrous things that
were new and strange to us...Then the inferior feelings set it, we saw our
selves as the inferior beings, we started listening to them.
They taught us our gods are demons but the one they brought is the real
universal god, they threatened us with hell fire and the world's ending... We
blindly believed them, they branded our ways demonic endorsed theirs, We
fell for it....I am still wondering how the africa gods which are supposedly
the evil and dark ones never threatened anybody with eternal fire or
damnation or ever threatening to destroy the whole earth, but the one they
brought who they claim to be love and just does that and is proud of
it...Please who is fooling who
we blindly abondoned our ways and embraced his, now we are lost in his
confusion, our own ways are now strange to us...
When are we going to say enough and take back our lives...
Beautiful african utopia is now in darkness claiming to be in the light..
we are blind, blinded by our own ignorance and vainful vanity...
[/b]

tonychristopher:
WE HAD OUR OWN TYPE OF DEMOCRACY AND WE HAD OUR OWN ALPHABETS CALLED NSIBIDI



IGBO IS THE MOST SOPHISTICATED RACE IN SUB SAHARAN AFRICA

Yeah bro and even other african societies have theirs, the hausas had theirs, same goes to the yorubas, zulus, benin, nok, ashantis etc...

frank317:


lol you are just a funny dude... well you are right in a way... I cannot hurt your God because he is imaginary. yes I will let go of the anger because the imaginary dude does not exist to touch my girl, thanks, that was helpful.

you are offering me Christianity? seriously? You want me to believe a talking snake convinced man to eat a an apple and that was when Adam realized eve was sexy? you seriously want me to believe the creator of this world created angel lucifer and then ordinary lucifer decided to fight his creator? what was he thinking? you want me to join you to believe your creator is as emotional as man... he gets angry, jealous, loves, slept with Mary, likes praises, likes being worshipped, and builds mansion. Wait... do you want me to join you in believing the creator regretted creating man, sent him out of eden and achieved nothing, destroyed man at sodom and Gomorrah and achieved nothing, destroyed earth with water and achieved nothing, killed his only son (who has no mother) and achieved nothing? An ominipresence, who is nowhere, omniscience who didnt know the man and angels he created would fall and couldn't even make a simple bicycle for his son Jesus to move around with while on earth. an ominipotent who cant defeat even his own creation the devil. an all loving who build a terrible place called hell for his beloved.

Nah, i will pass.

am offering you freedom bro. Freedom from slavery and dogmatism

Christ is freedom and I offer you liberty.
Christ is the reality and I want you open your eyes and stop chasing shadows.

Hiswordxray:

Christ is freedom and I offer you liberty.
Christ is the reality and I want you open your eyes and stop chasing shadows.

You didn't even reply to my post my good friend. Do you really want me to believe in all the hogwash I outlined above?

I want you to open your eyes and stop believing in myths. At least if you must believe in one you try some African myth and discard this Jewish childish tale you take seriously.

dalaman:


We do have conscience as humans, that is what has enabled out race to developed our union and social interaction better.We are capable of learning what we see as well. So when we practice things and acts that are harmful, we could be thought to discard them if good reasons are provided to show that they are harmful to us. Rape for example started out as a good thing. Even the bible supported it. If you rape a woman you were to marry her according to the bible. People used to marry some of their women by stealing them from neighboring societies and taking them home in the ancient days. Over time people saw it as a bad thing and changed their ways. Rape became bad. Taking women as war booties was stopped something that was encouraged by God in the bible. Our morality today has undergone thousands of years of evolution. The God of the bible is not the one that makes laws for us. Our various legislative arms of government does that now in most societies . People did that in the past, they used God to scare people and make sure they abide by such laws. God has nothing to do with morality that is why Christians have never been shown and can never be shown to be more moral than non christians .

nothing you've said about the endorsement of slavery and rape are obviously ridiculous points used by agnostic/atheist all the time, so I'm not even gonna bother about those. If there's no God there's no good and evil in the objective sense. meaning that what you think is wrong is right to someone else since there are no instructions that guide the way should treat each other. The implication of this is, when a helpless person is getting assaulted in front of you, then you can't confront the rapist, but you can though say is, from my perspective I understand that's your morality but from my point of view is that it is wrong.

frank317:


ok, i get it. was just pointing out the fallacy in the declaration.




Ok, morality is written in our hearts but we need to the ten commandments to guide us and remind us what is already in our heart?

we are not perfect i guess you need to ask your fellow christian @image to show you how your God made him perfect

Fallacy is a mistaken belief, I have my reasons why I don't care about the other gods you're systemically trying to impose on me simply because I'm a theist. if anything you're the one mistaken here.
we are not imperfect because God made us so, rather we are because of the fall in the garden of Eden, but obviously you don't know this because you've not done your homework.

tevinsolt:


nothing you've said about the endorsement of slavery and rape are obviously ridiculous points used by agnostic/atheist all the time, so I'm not even gonna bother about those. If there's no God there's no good and evil in the objective sense. meaning that what you think is wrong is right to someone else since there are no instructions that guide the way should treat each other. The implication of this is, when a helpless person is getting assaulted in front of you, then you can't confront the rapist, but you can though say is, from my perspective I understand that's your morality but from my point of view is that it is wrong.

You keep making empty statements that you can not defend. With God slavery was sanctioned in the bible. Rapist were told to marry their victims in the bible. Parents were told to stone their disobedient children to death inside the bible. ISIS is presently spreading terror around in the name of God and divine command theory. Humans over the years have thought themselves to appreciate empathy and to think about others. We have a brain that enables us to do that. When I see a guy raping a lady I can empathize with her, knowing that he is taking her against her will and causing her pain in the process. That alone is enough reason for me to act of I can or call for help. Doesn't need God in anyway ,because with God in the bible rape was permitted.

dalaman:


You keep making empty statements that you can not defend. With God slavery was sanctioned in the bible. Rapist were told to marry their victims in the bible. Parents were told to stone their disobedient children to death inside the bible. ISIS is presently spreading terror around in the name of God and divine command theory. Humans over the years have thought themselves to appreciate empathy and to think about others. We have a brain that enables us to do that. When I see a guy raping a lady I can empathize with her, knowing that he is taking her against her will and causing her pain in the process. That alone is enough reason for me to act of I can or call for help. Doesn't need God in anyway ,because with God in the bible rape was permitted.

Bro i fink their is need for u to say any more on this...he will never get it.

The more you say the more baseless defense he brings up..

I believe all your points and posts were clear enough... its left for him to understand or not.

Tho i dont expect him to, it goes against his beliefs and religious convictions you know...

frank317:


no human is perfect and because you are human, i know you are not and can never be perfect.

Yes, i say no one is perfect but i know people can be good. being good does not equate being perfect. Your Bible says no one is good, it lied, i have seen so many good people.

Why do you think no human is perfect? Where is your proof? People can be good and do good deeds, that i am consistently saying. But no one is good in the context of religion and of the OP. That people do good deeds does not mean that they are good. BTW, are you good? There are criminals that do good deeds, there are people that are good at home or to their families and friends, but evil at other places. While their families and friends may think them good, the overall shows they are not good.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

dalaman:


You still haven't shown us how the God you believe in is good. What do you mean when you say god is good? Can your God's goodness be tested? If yes, how? If no, then why do you keep spewing that rhetoric? What does it mean to be good?

Why do you think humans cannot be perfect? You forgot to answer that. God is good because He is the definition of good, it is like asking why the letter A is 'A'. God is good and anything ungodly is not good. It is now apart from that NATURE of God that we can look at the deeds of God and still say He is good, everything that good is is in God and approved by God. So, when we say God is good, it is His nature and character, and then His deeds. Can God's goodness be tested, i suppose so. What are the parameters you use to test good? God is the definition and standard of what good is. He is the plumb rule as it were, we measure everything against Him as it were. To be good is to be what God wants you to be, to be suitable to God.

frank317:


whatever your own definition of perfection is... mine is what is in the dictionary. Anything you read there is my definition of perfect.

The only thing that can make a person good is his deed.

Why do you think humans cannot be perfect? You forgot to answer that. From the dictionary,
- To be perfect is to be without fault or without error. The real question is before who, as beauty is largely in the eye of the beholder. A man may look at an incidence or an act by his wife/child and see no fault in it, while someone else might look at the same act and be unhappy with it. In the sight of God, one can be without fault or error, made clean by the blood of the Lamb.
- To be perfect is to be complete and whole, and believers are complete in Christ.
1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to naught:
- To be perfect is to be excellent or ideal. The ideal thing needed to please God is faith, so faith puts you in line for perfection before God. You please God by faith.
- To be perfect is to be especially suitable or exact. When you do what exactly is required by God or suitable to God, you are perfect.
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Your deed does not make you good, it simply remains a good deed. For instance, respecting your parents is a good thing/deed. Is Idi Amin(or whoever you think as evil) good because he respects his parents, despite his despotism?

dalaman:


You keep making empty statements that you can not defend. With God slavery was sanctioned in the bible. Rapist were told to marry their victims in the bible. Parents were told to stone their disobedient children to death inside the bible. ISIS is presently spreading terror around in the name of God and divine command theory. Humans over the years have thought themselves to appreciate empathy and to think about others. We have a brain that enables us to do that. When I see a guy raping a lady I can empathize with her, knowing that he is taking her against her will and causing her pain in the process. That alone is enough reason for me to act of I can or call for help. Doesn't need God in anyway ,because with God in the bible rape was permitted.

again you don't know what you're talking about, go back to those verses and read in context.

since you don't get it I'm going to have to explain to you
If there's no God, the first living cell came about as a result of time and chance.
due to this simple theory, everything in the universe as we know is physical and tangible, no metaphysical.
knowing this can you point to an element on the periodic table with a feeling, emotion, an element that understands the concept of justice. cause in case you didn't know these are the physical properties our bodies are made of.
What I here you say is this --(we some how got here by a [cosmic accident], these elements came together and voila we have this awesome brain that can somehow grasp this metaphysical concepts but I don't fully understand the leap, so I'll just say empathy)
the scenario I gave you was one where morality was truly subjective! obviously in the real world it isn't although it appears to be, no one can live out moral subjectivity!
according to Darwin's theory of evolution nature selects only the species that are best fitted or able to survive the test of time (survival of the fittest). when Europeans started buying and taking slaves from Africa or when they came again the second time to colonize 99.9% of the continent, they had an advantage, guns and warships large organized infantry if they had wiped every African out there and then (if moral is truly subjective) there will be nothing wrong with. They were best suited to take us out.

tevinsolt:


again you don't know what you're talking about, go back to those verses and read in context.

since you don't get it I'm going to have to explain to you
If there's no God, the first living cell came about as a result of time and chance.
due to this simple theory, everything in the universe as we know is physical and tangible, no metaphysical.
knowing this can you point to an element on the periodic table with a feeling, emotion, an element that understands the concept of justice. cause in case you didn't know these are the physical properties our bodies are made of.
What I here you say is this --(we some how got here by a [cosmic accident], these elements came together and voila we have this awesome brain that can somehow grasp this metaphysical concepts but I don't fully understand the leap, so I'll just say empathy)
the scenario I gave you was one where morality was truly subjective! obviously in the real world it isn't although it appears to be, no one can live out moral subjectivity!
according to Darwin's theory of evolution nature selects only the species that are best fitted or able to survive the test of time (survival of the fittest). when Europeans started buying and taking slaves from Africa or when they came again the second time to colonize 99.9% of the continent, they had an advantage, guns and warships large organized infantry if they had wiped every African out there and then (if moral is truly subjective) there will be nothing wrong with. They were best suited to take us out.

I keep saying that even with God everything you say has already been sanctioned. The genocide you talk about was sanctioned by God in the bible. All the Amalekietes and Canaanites were to be totally annihilated. It's there in the bible. Slavery was sanctioned by God in the bible. The bible contains a lot of immorality that God sanctioned and promoted. Genocide, racism, sexism, land grab you name it. Morality is what we humans invented and learned over the years. We are still refining it as we go along. God is not the basis for human morality, humans are, we only use God as an enforcing mechanism. That is obviously clear. You have not made any case for God as the basis of human morality, you just keep begging the question. Morality in the real world is not objective as such there is no universally accepted set of morality or moral principles.

Image123:


Why do you think humans cannot be perfect? You forgot to answer that. God is good because He is the definition of good, it is like asking why the letter A is 'A'. God is good and anything ungodly is not good. It is now apart from that NATURE of God that we can look at the deeds of God and still say He is good, everything that good is is in God and approved by God. So, when we say God is good, it is His nature and character, and then His deeds. Can God's goodness be tested, i suppose so. What are the parameters you use to test good? God is the definition and standard of what good is. He is the plumb rule as it were, we measure everything against Him as it were. To be good is to be what God wants you to be, to be suitable to God.

So if God says killing of those that do not worship him is good then it becomes good right?

dalaman:


I keep saying that even with God everything you say has already been sanctioned. The genocide you talk about was sanctioned by God in the bible. All the Amalekietes and Canaanites were to be totally annihilated. It's there in the bible. Slavery was sanctioned by God in the bible. The bible contains a lot of immorality that God sanctioned and promoted. Genocide, racism, sexism, land grab you name it. Morality is what we humans invented and learned over the years. We are still refining it as we go along. God is not the basis for human morality, humans are, we only use God as an enforcing mechanism. That is obviously clear. You have not made any case for God as the basis of human morality, you just keep begging the question. Morality in the real world is not objective as such there is no universally accepted set of morality or moral principles.

It's like I can't get through to you. A moral law giver has to exist for morality to exist, if individual minds all make up what's moral, then there's no right or wrong, just PERSONAL BIAS, I prefer turkey, you prefer chicken (it is just what it is) no one is wrong no one is right. If morality is subjective, then you can't say slavery is wrong, if you say it is wrong then your acknowledging moral absolute, that there's a standard we have to follow when treating other humans, that humans shouldn't own other humans for financial gains when in fact there's no set guide.

another way you can look at it is, If we don't have innate value just another cosmic dust walking around justice is not real and a delusion......If someone kills another person then it doesn't matter, the reality of things is that our solar system is headed for doom anyways all the achievement of humanity from the start to end is gonna be wiped out, you can rip people off while you are alive so that you can have finest of things in live, and leave others dirt poor, both the rich douchebag and the poor are all ending up in the same place.

tevinsolt:


It's like I can't get through to you. A moral law giver has to exist for morality to exist, if individual minds all make up what's moral, then there's no right or wrong, just PERSONAL BIAS, I prefer turkey, you prefer chicken (it is just what it is) no one is wrong no one is right. If morality is subjective, then you can't say slavery is wrong, if you say it is wrong then your acknowledging moral absolute, that there's a standard we have to follow when treating other humans, that humans shouldn't own other humans for financial gains when in fact there's no set guide.

The Moral law giver that exist is man. This is true because there are different laws in different societies, that is the reality. If God is the only moral law giver then why are there different laws in different societies all through human societies? Please can you tell me why there are very different laws all through human history if there is only one moral law giver? People thought themselves that slavery is wrong over thousand years of their evolution history, it actually used to be right, no God thought humans that history was wrong, the bible it self advocated and encouraged slavery, it never condemned it. People were encouraged to sell their daughters into slavery in the bible. The knowledge that slavery was wrong never came from the bible because the bible encouraged it, it came as a result of years of moral evolution, people thought themselves and learned that slavery was wrong. Over time they learned to stop it. They labeled it as a bad thing to do, thought it other to stop taking each other against their will, they reasoned it out and saw that it was the best thing to do and they stopped enslaving each other. Our ability to self reflect and use our brains to empathize with each other helped us a lot in that regard.

another way you can look at it is, If we don't have innate value just another cosmic dust walking around justice is not real and a delusion......If someone kills another person then it doesn't matter, the reality of things is that our solar system is headed for doom anyways all the achievement of humanity from the start to end is gonna be wiped out, you can rip people off while you are alive so that you can have finest of things in live, and leave others dirt poor, both the rich douchebag and the poor are all ending up in the same place.

As long as we are here we have to do things that will make us all live in peace and tranquility with each other. If some one kills another it matters because the people of that person that was murdered will like to take revenge. I gave you an example to the ancient tribe in the Americas that almost exterminated each other until they came together and thought each other to stop killing one another because they were tired of losing their loved ones. Revenge killing and dominating the other was part of their cultures. They realized it was affecting them negatively and stopped. As long as we are here, we have to find ways of minimizing harm to each other.

Even with God it doesn't matter how you live your life, what matters is what religion or sect of religion you belong to. Muslims believe all unbelievers will rot in hell, Christians believe the same as well. Hindus have their own beliefs that tells them that they alone will enjoy in the afterlife. It that is true then it also doesn't matter. Why should a christian be good in this life if Allah is true when he will only end up in hell in the after life? Why should a Muslim, a Taoist and an Hindu be good if Jesus is the only way to God and they will all end up in hell in the after life? You aren't producing valid arguments only empty rhetoric.

dalaman:


The Moral law giver that exist is man. This is true because there are different laws in different societies, that is the reality. If God is the only moral law giver then why are there different laws in different societies all through human societies? Please can you tell me why there are very different laws all through human history if there is only one moral law giver? People thought themselves that slavery is wrong over thousand years of their evolution history, it actually used to be right, no God thought humans that history was wrong, the bible it self advocated and encouraged slavery, it never condemned it. People were encouraged to sell their daughters into slavery in the bible. The knowledge that slavery was wrong never came from the bible because the bible encouraged it, it came as a result of years of moral evolution, people thought themselves and learned that slavery was wrong. Over time they learned to stop it. They labeled it as a bad thing to do, thought it other to stop taking each other against their will, they reasoned it out and saw that it was the best thing to do and they stopped enslaving each other. Our ability to self reflect and use our brains to empathize with each other helped us a lot in that regard.




As long as we are here we have to do things that will make us all live in peace and tranquility with each other. If some one kills another it matters because the people of that person that was murdered will like to take revenge. I gave you an example to the ancient tribe in the Americas that almost exterminated each other until they came together and thought each other to stop killing one another because they were tired of losing their loved ones. Revenge killing and dominating the other was part of their cultures. They realized it was affecting them negatively and stopped. As long as we are here, we have to find ways of minimizing harm to each other.

Even with God it doesn't matter how you live your life, what matters is what religion or sect of religion you belong to. Muslims believe all unbelievers will rot in hell, Christians believe the same as well. Hindus have their own beliefs that tells them that they alone will enjoy in the afterlife. It that is true then it also doesn't matter. Why should a christian be good in this life if Allah is true when he will only end up in hell in the after life? Why should a Muslim, a Taoist and an Hindu be good if Jesus is the only way to God and they will all end up in hell in the after life? You aren't producing valid arguments only empty rhetoric.

you seriously don't get it. I can't change your mind but..
I easily can make this more difficult for you by asking you to account for how matter went from being purely physical to metaphysical having emotions, empathy and all
and pls do me a favor by answering these questions
where did empathy come from (and pls don't say evolution)
where did the Concept of Justice came from?
why do we feel the need to avenge wrong doings? don't you think revenging a dead person is selfish and arrogant to think killing is wrong? or that by taking revenge you impose your moral view on the person who committed the murder? not only that, you have buy into the murderers idea of morality to make him "pay" for taking the life of one of your own, in which is people might also retaliate.

in a morally subjective world conflict would be the order of the day, in our world reality is there are absolute morals that cut across every culture. these morals stands regardless personal bias.

dalaman:


So if God says killing of those that do not worship him is good then it becomes good right?

Does He say so?