Scholar8200:

15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature : 16 for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Then how come He is the First born of the creatures He created??

Explain the underlined.

Why did it not read that by Him were all things born (since you imply that born = created)

We are all born , are we then created beings ? Simple logic

Jessicha:


Explain the underlined.

15 He is the exact living image [the essential manifestation] of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible], the firstborn [the preeminent one, the sovereign, and the originator] of all creation
(AMP)

The Greek there is prototokos from two words protos - first and tikto -to bear, bring forth, preeminent

It can be used literally (Matthew 1:25) or figuratively (to mean preeminent Colossians 1:15,18b)

The conclusion of that recitation in Colossians 1:15-18 proves that the writer stresses the Preeminence ie the figurative use of the word First- Born

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:18

Note the term Firstborn from the dead!

We are all born , are we then created beings ? Simple logic

I am afraid the passage under consideration clearly speaks of creatures in relation to a Creator, not progenitors i.e. we were not born by Christ hence that logic is not applicable here!

Scholar8200:

15 He is the exact living image [the essential manifestation] of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible], the firstborn [the preeminent one, the sovereign, and the originator] of all creation
(AMP)
The Greek there is prototokos from two words protos - first and tikto -to bear, bring forth, preeminent
It can be used literally (Matthew 1:25) or figuratively (to mean preeminent Colossians 1:15,18b)
The conclusion of that recitation in Colossians 1:15-18 proves that the writer stresses the Preeminence ie the figurative use of the word First- Born
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:18
Note the term Firstborn from the dead!

First , remove all those lies and personal opinions in bracket , they are not in the manuscript .

Jesus is the son of God before the creation of the world, he was in existence

Jessicha:

Firstborn OF every creature , is a figurative use realy?

If we will be faithful to the context! However the term used in John 3:16 Monogene, means exactly what it was translated as!

It doesnt mean Jesus was Never one of the Dead .

I highlighted that to underscore the fact of the passage focussing The Preeminence of Christ

Scholar8200:
If we will be faithful to the context! However the term used in John 3:16 Monogene, means exactly what it was translated as!

All those personal opinions in bracket are lies meant to harden and twist the scripture .

Your post above reveal you are displaying hypocrisy .

Scriptural usage :

Is the firstborn of isreal , not a son of isreal ?

Is the firstborn of pharaoh , not a son of pharaoh ?

Why is the firstborn of creation , not a son of creation !

I highlighted that to underscore the fact of the passage focussing The Preeminence of Christ

Firstborn from the dead highlights that he was at one time dead . Same way firstborn of creation highlight he was part of creation .

Jessicha:


All those personal opinions in bracket are lies meant to harden and twist the scripture . Your post above reveal you are displaying hypocrisy .

I wish you could be more specific in highlighting those and describing how they 'harden and twist' the scripture. At least it will help where corrections need to be made.

Scriptural usage :

Is the firstborn of isreal , not a son of isreal ?

Is the firstborn of pharaoh , not a son of pharaoh ?

Correct!!!

Why is the firstborn of creation , not a son of creation !

Here lies the problem! The premises above suggest that the objects (Pharaoh, Israel) gave birth to the first born. Now how is Jesus Christ the First born of creation? Is creation there personified? Does this follow the pattern of your premise?

I suggest you search for another passage. Like I said, the context of this passage is Pre-eminence

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Firstborn from the dead highlights that he was at one time dead . Same way firstborn of creation highlight he was part of creation .

Of course, after His incarnation, He could suffer hunger, be limited by space, sleep, ...Die (and He rose from the Dead).

Jessicha:


All those personal opinions in bracket are lies meant to harden and twist the scripture . Your post above reveal you are displaying hypocrisy .

I wish you could be more specific in highlighting those and describing how they 'harden and twist' the scripture. At least it will help where corrections need to be made.

Scriptural usage :

Is the firstborn of isreal , not a son of isreal ?

Is the firstborn of pharaoh , not a son of pharaoh ?

Correct!!!

Why is the firstborn of creation , not a son of creation !

Here lies the problem! The premises above suggest that the objects (Pharaoh, Israel) gave birth to the first born. Now how is Jesus Christ the First born of creation? Is creation there personified? Does this follow the pattern of your premise?

I suggest you search for another passage. Like I said, the context of this passage is Pre-eminence

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Firstborn from the dead highlights that he was at one time dead . Same way firstborn of creation highlight he was part of creation .

Of course, after His incarnation, He could suffer hunger, be limited by space, sleep, ...Die (and He rose from the Dead).

It seems to me that you think Christ was flesh and blood before His incarnation. Would HE have died if He was not incarnated?

Scholar8200:
I wish you could be more specific in highlighting those and describing how they 'harden and twist' the scripture. At least it will help where corrections need to be made.


Correct!!!

Here lies the problem! The premises above suggest that the objects (Pharaoh, Israel) gave birth to the first born. Now how is Jesus Christ the First born of creation? Is creation there personified? Does this follow the pattern of your premise?


I suggest you search for another passage. Like I said, the context of this passage is Pre-eminence

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


Of course, after His incarnation, He could suffer hunger, be limited by space, sleep, ...Die (and He rose from the Dead).

@ccording to the bold and underlined , Prov 8:24 : " I was given birth to" .How? The way earth was also given birth to , creation .

Jessicha:


@ccording to the bold and underlined , Prov 8:24 : " I was given birth to" .How? The way earth was also given birth to , creation .

Wow are we done with Colossians? And what about the samples whence your conclusions - lies, twist and harden scriptures, hypocrite - came? Let's be thorough now!

Now notice this:
Proverbs 8:24-30
When there were no depths, I was brought forth;
when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled,
before the hills was I brought forth:
26 while as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields,
nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there:
when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 when he established the clouds above:
when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 when he gave to the sea his decree,
that the waters should not pass his commandment:
when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 then I was by him, as one brought up with him:
and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

Now the black highlighted texts show us that:
1. The mention of brought forth (regarding the Son) and made(concerning the earth and elements) show us that The Son was not made/created else why the change in verbs within same passage?


The green highlighted text establishes equality! How? It does not say, "brought up BY Him" but , "brought up WITH Him"

Just like John 17:5 speaks of ," Glory which I had WITH Thee" not "Glory which I had FROM Thee"

See the use of that same clause here:

Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
Acts 13:1 That suggests that Manaen and Herod were peers brought up together!

@ Scholar8200 ... Fisrtborn of isreal is a son of isreal $ firstborn of pharaoh is a son of pharaoh , when it comes to firstborn of cretion ..... Do you admit he is a son of creation ?


@scholr8200 ... Explain the statement , - I ws brought forth , (2) re other translators wrong to render it I was given birth to ?

CANTICLES:
@ Scholar8200 ... Fisrtborn of isreal is a son of isreal $ firstborn of pharaoh is a son of pharaoh , when it comes to firstborn of cretion ..... Do you admit he is a son of creation ?

You are welcome; pls the objects there - Pharaoh & Israel are human. In the light of this can you re-phrase your question?

Because you appear to say:
son of Pharaoh = born by Pharaoh
son of Israelites = born by Israeli fathers
son of Creation = born by Creation (Absurd if you ask me) Hence I suggest that you seek for another passage that will flow with your line of thought, in its context.(the one here refers to Pre-eminence)

Scholar8200:
You are welcome; pls the objects there - Pharaoh & Israel are human. In the light of this can you re-phrase your question?

Because you appear to say:
son of Pharaoh = born by Pharaoh
son of Israelites = born by Israeli fathers
son of Creation = born by Creation (Absurd if you ask me) Hence I suggest that you seek for another passage that will flow with your line of thought, in its context.(the one here refers to Pre-eminence)

Youngman, Born simply means " brought into existence " . A Nation Can Be Born , a school can be born .


Scripturally, Its a two way process:

By creation or by sexual intercourse .

Angels are born by creation

Adam was born by creation

So , why not admit Jesus was born by creation ? - Col 1:15

CANTICLES:


Youngman, Born simply means " brought into existence " . A Nation Can Be Born , a school can be born .



Scripturally, Its a two way process:

By creation or by sexual intercourse .

Angels are born by creation

Adam was born by creation

But the premises in your initial post is evidently focussed on born by sexual intercourse.

So , why not admit Jesus was born by creation ? - Col 1:15

No.Jesus was not born by creation. Rather He created all creation but He Himself was not created.

Now notice this:
Proverbs 8:24-30
When there were no depths, I was brought forth;
when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled,
before the hills was I brought forth:
26 while as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields,

Here, He uses the clause,"Brought Forth". But goes no further. That the only means of being brought forth known to finite mortals is that of birth or creation does not mean God too is limited thereto. (Scriptures stops at that clause and I go no further!)

Besides going further, it says:

Proverbs 8:30
30 then I was by him, as one brought up with him:
and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

A creation would say ," brought up by Him" because the usage up there indicate that they were equals, peers.

Going to the New Testament, the preposition (WITH) did not change:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1

The same was in the beginning with God
John 1:2

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was
John 17:5

Suggests a participation!

A creature would have said, "the Glory which I received from Thee."

OLAADEGBU:
If Jesus is called the Son of God, do you think that makes Him God? Muslims often misunderstand the term, "Son of God," to mean that God literally had sexual relations with Mary to produce Jesus. Is that what the term means?

Jesus is not the only son of God.

According to the bible, The Sons of God slept with daughters of men and they gave birth to Nephilims


Genesis 6 vs 1 - 8.......6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. Genesis

Scholar8200:
Wow are we done with Colossians?

Not at all , I gave you the example of pharaoh , you claim that one his human birth , which is why I cite proverb 8:24 to prove that even Jesus was given birth to .

Humans born by sex

God born by creation

Of All the creation by God , Jesus is the firstborn . Thats what col 1:15 is saying

And what about the samples whence your conclusions - lies, twist and harden scriptures, hypocrite - came? Let's be thorough now!



Now notice this:
Proverbs 8:24-30
When there were no depths, I was brought forth;
when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled,
before the hills was I brought forth:
26 while as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields,
nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there:
When he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 when he established the clouds above:
When he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 when he gave to the sea his decree,
that the waters should not pass his commandment:
When he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 then I was by him, as one brought up with him:
and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

Now the black highlighted texts show us that:

1. The mention of brought forth (regarding the Son) and made(concerning the earth and elements) show us that The Son was not made/created else why the change in verbs within same passage?





The green highlighted text establishes equality! How? It does not say, "brought up BY Him" but , "brought up WITH Him"

Just like John 17:5 speaks of ," Glory which I had WITH Thee" not "Glory which I had FROM Thee"

See the use of that same clause here:

Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
Acts 13:1 That suggests that Manaen and Herod were peers brought up together!

@ brown

All this underlined fabrications are not found in the manuscript .

15 He is the exact living image [the essential
Manifestation] of the unseen God [the visible
Representation of the invisible],
the firstborn [the
preeminent one, the sovereign, and the originator] of all
creation
(AMP)

@ underlined : the earth and mountains were also " brought forth" psalm 90:2 , i guess they are not created . Uh ?

@ blue : false opinion .. Jesus remains a son , FATHER is greater than Jesus [ John 14:28]

Why is the Father never called son of God ? Not even once .
Why is the father never addressed as the firstborn of all creation ?

Jessicha:


Not at all , I gave you the example of pharaoh , you claim that one his human birth , which is why I cite proverb 8:24 to prove that even Jesus was given birth to .

Humans born by sex

God born by creation

Of All the creation by God , Jesus is the firstborn . Thats what col 1:15 is saying

That violates the context! Besides, Why will He be called Firstborn in vs 15 since vs 16 says All other things were created? Why did it not say they were begotten?

@ brown

All this underlined fabrications are not found in the manuscript .

15 He is the exact living image [the essential
Manifestation] of the unseen God [the visible
Representation of the invisible],
the firstborn [the
preeminent one, the sovereign, and the originator] of all
creation
(AMP)

Prove it! Give links/quotes from referenced sites that confirm your claim. The amplified version uses the words in parentheses as a way of capturing the full meaning of the word used in the manuscript.

.
@ underlined : the earth and mountains were also " brought forth" psalm 90:2 , i guess they are not created . Uh ?

this is figurative! The same passage speaks of the earth being formed! Besides, apart from Proverbs 8:24-30 that speaks of the earth being made/created (by Jesus as Col 1:16 affirms) there are other passages that tell us expressedly that the mountains etc were created but not ONE that says the Son was created!

@ blue : false opinion .. Jesus remains a son , FATHER is greater than Jesus [ John 14:28]

That was spoken by Christ after the incarnation. What? Would you say He was lower than Joseph and Mary because He was subject to them as a Child? There are other passages where His Divinity was revealed eg John 17:5

Jessicha:
Why is the Father never called son of God ? Not even once .

Why is the father never addressed as the firstborn of all creation ?

This line of argument is not applicable here

Highcuerayte:


I get it.

I meant to say beget.

Scholar8200:
This line of argument is not applicable here

Whether you like it or not , she makes a very good point .

Jesus remains the first BORN OF all CREATION - col 1:15 , that scripture is clear enough . He is the first person born of creation .
Firstborn always have beginning . If you doubt it , show me where the Father is described as firstborn of all creation ?

Rev 3:14 supports this , Jesus said he is " the beginning of the creation BY God"

Jozzy4:


Man and bird beget through sexual intercourse , how did God beget ?

OLAADEGBU:


Good question.

God can do things by Himself, He doesn't need anyone or anything,
He doesn't need a woman or Heavenly being to bring forth the Word


Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

God bought the Word forth from Himself, the one and only begotten of God.



Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;


Gen_1:26 And God said, Let [size=14pt]us[/size] make man in [size=14pt]our[/size] image, after [size=14pt]our[/size] likeness: ....
Gen_11:7 Go to, let [size=14pt]us[/size] go down, and there confound their language, ....

johnw74
God bought the word forth from himself

GBAM!

Jozzy4:


GBAM!

Glad you agree with me, but you being a supposed jw follower,
I'm sure you must be confused.

johnw74:


Glad you agree with me, but you being a supposed jw follower,
I'm sure you must be confused.

Oga , the point is clear lol . God brought forth jesus from himself . - read rev 3:14


more , tell us how Jesus was begotten ?

Jozzy4:


Oga , the point is clear lol . God brought forth jesus from himself . - read rev 3:14


more , tell us how Jesus was begotten ?

I don't answer supposed jw or their followers questions as they are not and never will be my teachers.
But again I'm suprised you agree with me that "God brought forth the Word from himself"
and I see you don't understand it.

johnw74:


I don't answer supposed jw or their followere questions as they are not and never will be my teachers.
But again I'm suprised you agree with me that "God brought forth the Word from himself"
and I see you don't understand it.

Agree with you ? I agreed with rev 3:14 that said Jesus is " the beginning of the creation By God " which is exactly what you are expressing with that statement , but yet you didnt know you have said it .

OLAADEGBU:
If Jesus is called the Son of God, do you think that makes Him God? Muslims often misunderstand the term, "Son of God," to mean that God literally had sexual relations with Mary to produce Jesus. Is that what the term means?

As you are called son of man does that not make you a man? You need to understand spiritual laws. Spiritual laws are bigger than whatever anyone think

Aceed:
What makes God God is because of what He can do and if Jesus is His only begotten Son, it means He inherits all that makes God God, making Him God also!







SE FINI!

What make God God is not what He can do but who He is. He can decide not to do what He can do and will still remain God. He is I am not I can do.

That you are a man is not a result of what you can do but who you are. It is who you are that make you do what you do not the other way round.

Highcuerayte:
Your question lack coherency.

You can't have right answers to wrong questions.

Always learn to ask right questions.

Man beget by sexual intercourse ; explain the process that God use to beget Jesus ?

Jozzy4:


Agree with you ? I agreed with rev 3:14 that said Jesus is " the beginning of the creation By God " which is exactly what you are expressing with that statement , but yet you didnt know you have said it .

You keep showing that you don't have a clue,
as the word came forth from God, the word can not be anything other than God's own Spirit,
and God was not created.
If you want understanding on 3:14 then ask someone else,
you know I don't waste much time on supposed jw and their followers or other non believers and anti Christs.

2Co 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers; for what fellowship does righteousness have with lawlessness? And what partnership does light have with darkness?

ninovandross:
then why in a christain teaching I think the catholic, they say smthing like holy mary mother of God, and we know that jesus is her son so they are calling him God

They pray that prayer according to their understanding. The law of the spirit superseds that of man.

You need to understand that Jesus has been in existence before He was born on earth. This knowledge will give a little insight into spiritual birth law. Spiritual things are brought (birth) into the physical by words. You can't transfer a thing from physical realm to spiritual realm without words (hence prayer).

Jesus became a son of God by God calling Him son and He answering. In the same way are we sons of God too.