₦airaland Forum

@ishmael Kindly tell me where in the bible you can divorce your wife and marry another . I'm waiting,

rezzy:
@ishmael Kindly tell me where in the bible you can divorce your wife and marry another . I'm waiting,

I'm not sure. However, the bible does tell slaves not to run away. In fact, Paul returns one such slave, Onesimus, to his master, Philemon. The letter to Philemon (one chapter) is where you will see this.

The bible say if your Writing hand cause you to sin Cut it off also remove your eyes. I have not seen anybody removing his eyes  after looking at bad films or blue film or young girls dressing to Kill.

hnd dear,it is right hand not writing hand.
You're beginning to sound like osuofia lol

It could be your left hand o  that can make you to sign what you should not sign or
write what you should not write there by making you to sin.

The bible says this says that.

Nobody ever remove his eyes by obeying what it says, but whenever it is time for tithe we claimed to be obeying the bible.   Human !

@ Backslider, Grouppoint, Feyisara Please read this, slowly  !

its good 2 alwayz tithe.

The discussion continues,

TV01:
The discussion continues,

Amen. Let's read from you, bro!

@bari_kade,

Thanks for breathing some fresh air into this issue of tithing. While I have disagreed with TV01 regarding this issue, no doubt he has enriched my knowledge through the process as well. Having said that, I am glad you guys have now "carry go" this discussion to the right forum.

@TV01,

I just want to respond to an issue you raised which bari_kade already dealt with as well.

Sir, that is not a response, that is an act, a work. You turn the chain on it's head, You actually want God to respond to you.

Phillipians 4:5 - Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. It is obvious that Paul and the Phillipians expect God's response each time they give. Giving can not be separated from receiving except one is not interested in going through the entire cycle. When you sow, you will reap, when you give you will receive, when you lend to God, He will repay you and when you cast your bread on the waters, you will find it after many days. These are biblical principles that bear eloquent testimony that expecting God to respond to our giving is just doing what the Bible says.

This I believe was a big motivation for the early Christians who sold their lands for the benefit of the church. Jesus already promised them multiple of that in return here in this lifetime! Matthew 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. These disciples knew that you can't beat God at giving. The more they gave, the more they received.

Hi Tayo,

Whats up? Trust all is well. I also appreciate Bari-Kade's, input here and on other threads. But can't say that anything we did not discuss before or a new perspective has been raised. And I am no more persuaded that tithing mandatory or voluntary is edifying to a mature Christian walk.

Quote from: TayoD on Today at 03:37:02 PM
I just want to respond to an issue you raised which bari_kade already dealt with as well. Phillipians 4:5 - Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. It is obvious that Paul and the Phillipians expect God's response each time they give. Giving can not be separated from receiving except one is not interested in going through the entire cycle. When you sow, you will reap, when you give you will receive, when you lend to God, He will repay you and when you cast your bread on the waters, you will find it after many days. These are biblical principles that bear eloquent testimony that expecting God to respond to our giving is just doing what the Bible says.

This I believe was a big motivation for the early Christians who sold their lands for the benefit of the church. Jesus already promised them multiple of that in return here in this lifetime! Matthew 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. These disciples knew that you can't beat God at giving. The more they gave, the more they received.

You are reading "giving & recieving" as between the giver and God. That is at best debatable. It makes at least as much sense to read it as between giver and receiver. That is standard Pentecostal thinking, to always believe that giving engenders a multiplied return in kind. It is simply not bourne out by scripture or practice.

I think the above speaks to your second paragraph as well. Additionallty, please lets be careful in our approach to interpreting scripture. Did the Lord promise physical blessings with persecution? Then what happens to the "Lord makes rich and adds no sorrow".  I see that exegesis as flawed on so many levels, not to mention that I think you've done the early Christians  an injustice by ascribing a "give to get"  motivation to them.

God bless
TV

Hi TV01,

TV01:
You are reading "giving & recieving" as between the giver and God. That is at best debatable. It makes at least as much sense to read it as between giver and receiver. That is standard Pentecostal thinking, to always believe that giving engenders a multiplied return in kind. It is simply not bourne out by scripture or practice.

Just curious. Let me ask you this question: are you saying that any and all 'giving' has nothing to do with God blessing the giver in return for his giving?

stimulus:
Hi TV01,

Just curious. Let me ask you this question: are you saying that any and all 'giving' has nothing to do with God blessing the giver in return for his giving?

No I am not.

Then what exactly are you saying? I've noticed your inclination to disavow the point; but pardon me if I misread you.

my, my.
This interests me. can I drop a line? i'm a believer. been so for a long time and I am glad I know the Lord.
Tithing: 10% of your increase (not income) was a commandment from God to the Jews. The old testament really made an issue of it. my forefather, Abraham, gave (not paid) 10% of his spoil (increase, not income) to Melchizedek. This was an act of worship. Not a commandment from God, he recognized the man as Priest of God. One thing to note: this priest blessed Abram before he gave the tithe (genesis: 14:14-20)
I believe one thing, everyone. god does NOT need your tithe to bless you. what is salvation if it isn't free? i do not have to do anything to obtain favor, grace or God's love.
Jesus' sacrifice: He died so that we who were excluded from the commonwealth of Israel can now be grafted into God' s tree. i did not pay for this. All i had to do was to believe, receive and halleluja! {Mr. D.baddie, welcome to God's family}
Listen, I am a benefactor of god's love not because of anything I have done, but He Himself chose to love me. Why should I now believe that any act of mine will ensure this grace continues? (Romans 8v.32 :" He that spared not His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give u sall things". i don't have to pay anything to get anything form God. If that were so, I could boast about my achievements. Certainly, I know God never asked anything of me (this is the problem Paul had with the Galatians, read the book), so, no, i can't be forced to "pay" nothing.
Pastors will tell you all sort of stuff (but brethren, i do not believe they are all trying to cheat anyone. they are only preaching what they believe is true) like "robbers of God will go to Hell". c'mon, my salvation's been paid for!
So much needs to said, but I'm at the office. My hands are full.

stimulus:
Then what exactly are you saying? I've noticed your inclination to disavow the point; but pardon me if I misread you.

Could I refer you to the post immediatey after yours (by D.baddie). That gives what I feel is a very true, quite concise picture of "God in Christ-centric" giving.

God's blessing is not predicated on anything man does, neither does it require man to do anything. That is not to say that God cannot or does not bless giving. But even this is not necessarily in kind, in multiples and on demand, It is in a manner, time and place of God's choosing.

I am in no way disavowing God's blessing givers, my point is to highlight what I see as an unscriptural and unhealthy error (man-centric) preached in some circles, that God is somehow bound to bless in kind in multiples and in this age to mans giving. That notion reduces giving to a ritual or a work. It's why religionists love the notion of a tithe (be that mandatory or more subtlely by ascribing benefits to the act).

God bless
TV

D.baddie To Tithe or Not to Tithe?

@D.baddie,

D.baddie:
c'mon, my salvation's been paid for!

I don't think anyone's making the inference that tithing or any other type of giving secures salvation. That kind of reasoning is a deflection to the simple question of whether or not one tithes or gives; and I'm glad that Hnd-holder has stated the question again to you in simple terms.

TV01,

TV01:
Could I refer you to the post immediatey after yours (by D.baddie). That gives what I feel is a very true, quite concise picture of "God in Christ-centric" giving.

In which case you both got it wrong. Please refer to my concerns in my rejoinder to his post. "God in Christ-centric" giving is not a question of effecting my salvation (sovereignly accomplished by Christ alone) by my giving (which is my response in worship).

TV01:
God's blessing is not predicated on anything man does, neither does it require man to do anything. That is not to say that God cannot or does not bless giving. But even this is not necessarily in kind, in multiples and on demand, It is in a manner, time and place of God's choosing.

You haven't said anything fresh or otherwise from what drew my question to what you stated earlier:

to always believe that giving engenders a multiplied return in kind. It is simply not bourne out by scripture or practice.

The fact is quite the opposite of your persuasion. Please go through the various relevant verses again and see if you're not mistaken. Is it true that man doesn't have to do anything in order for God to bless him financially - as far as giving is concerned?

TV01:
I am in no way disavowing God's blessing givers, my point is to highlight what I see as an unscriptural and unhealthy error (man-centric) preached in some circles, that God is somehow bound to bless in kind in multiples and in this age to mans giving. That notion reduces giving to a ritual or a work. It's why religionists love the notion of a tithe (be that mandatory or more subtlely by ascribing benefits to the act).

I think most readers would agree with me that you're contradicting yourself. On the one hand, you clearly stated that giving for multiplied return is "simply not bourne out by scripture or practice." Then again you're stating that in no way are you disavowing the very same thing that Scripture bears out! Let me simplify it:

    (a) does Scripture teach that giving does not produce any blessing in return?

    (b) does Scripture teach that giving produces a blessing in return (multiplied or however)?

In other words, you're saying yes to two contrasting positions:

            yes to (a) - Scripture says NO

            yes to (b) - Scripture says YES

See, TV01, before you go off about what men teach in any circle at all, could I ask that you focus on what you read in Scripture? I think that default position of quickly interpreting this subject with ideas that it is mandatory might be the reason why you seem to be contradicting your position.

Again, I may be reading you wrongly; but I'd appreciate a simply outline on the present concern.

Thanks.

Hi Stimulus,

I am not linking giving to salvation. But as I have repeatedly said God blessing, like God saving is not predicated on anything man does.

Yes, I believe God can and does bless when believers give, but you don't have to give in order to be blessed, and if you are blessed because you give, it doesn't have to be in kind, multiples or here and now.

I think that simply outlines my position, and I trust answers your concern.

God bless
TV

@TV01,

TV01:
I am not linking giving to salvation. But as I have repeatedly said God blessing, like God saving is not predicated on anything man does.

In Scripture, the two concepts - God's salvation and man's giving - are not connected by that kind of analogy. God's grace to save us is not predicated on anything man does; but His blessing in finances is certainly a matter of how man responds in his giving to Him.

TV01:
Yes, I believe God can and does bless when believers give, but you don't have to give in order to be blessed, and if you are blessed because you give, it doesn't have to be in kind, multiples or here and now.

The idea that "you don't have to give in order to be blessed" is, unfortunately, not what Scripture teaches (at least, not what I read in Scripture, rather). Now, so that I don't act presumptously, may I ask that you help me offer biblcal texts for your persuasion as highlighted in the quote above.


Thanks.

@ D.baddie,

my, my.
This interests me. can I drop a line?

By all means please do so.  

i'm a believer. been so for a long time and I am glad I know the Lord.

I share your joy my brother.

Tithing: 10% of your increase (not income) was a commandment from God to the Jews.

Was Abraham a Jew in the sense of being amongst the 12 brotheres of Isreal?

The old testament really made an issue of it.

That is right!

My forefather, Abraham, gave (not paid) 10% of his spoil (increase, not income) to Melchizedek. This was an act of worship. Not a commandment from God, he recognized the man as Priest of God.

Why the tength?  

One thing to note: this priest blessed Abram before he gave the tithe (genesis: 14:14-20)

We are also blessed of God whether we pay tithe or not. We are blessed by our association in Christ!

I believe one thing, everyone. god does NOT need your tithe to bless you. what is salvation if it isn't free? i do not have to do anything to obtain favor, grace or God's love Jesus' sacrifice: He died so that we who were excluded from the commonwealth of Israel can now be grafted into God' s tree. i did not pay for this. All i had to do was to believe, receive and halleluja! {Mr. D.baddie, welcome to God's family}
Listen, I am a benefactor of god's love not because of anything I have done, but He Himself chose to love me. Why should I now believe that any act of mine will ensure this grace continues? (Romans 8v.32 :" He that spared not His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give u sall things". i don't have to pay anything to get anything form God. If that were so, I could boast about my achievements. Certainly, I know God never asked anything of me (this is the problem Paul had with the Galatians, read the book), so, no, i can't be forced to "pay" nothing,

Now this is the part I really want to answer in all your submission. It is true that your salvation was and is a gift, yet you had to take some steps (works) to receive it. The whole world is potentially saved, yet not everyone will receive that gift. The only reason why you are saved is because you believed the Gospel and you confessd it while making Jesus your Lord and Saviour! Like salvation, many of God's blessings are conditional though the basis for Him to bless you is already done in Christ. For instance, despite the fact that by His stripes we are healed, many Christians still fall sick because they fail to take hold of this promise through the action of faith! God has also promised to supply all my needs, yet I will go hungry if I do not work!! So you see, our work is based on the finished work of Jesus and not independent of it. We do not expect to be saved by our works but we do expect to be rewarded for it. Paul said we should run to obtain.

Pastors will tell you all sort of stuff (but brethren, i do not believe they are all trying to cheat anyone. they are only preaching what they believe is true) like "robbers of God will go to Hell". c'mon, my salvation's been paid for!

I do not know of any Pastor who preaches this but if any does, they are in error.

So much needs to said, but I'm at the office. My hands are full.

I feel you my brother!

Tithing is a biblical injuction, it was made when the Levites who where still doing the work of God where available, but remember that they at a point abandoned their duty post and as such who do you pay the tithe for now when the Levites have left their duty.  Secondly, tithing is 10% of total earnings.  How many people really pay it accordingly.  I as a person find it amusing when people say they pay tithe.  As they pay just from the salary they earn and forgeting about other incomes they make along side.  That is not tithing.  10% of all total income must be given to God.  anything short of that is robbing God.

"Paul was inspired by God's Holy Spirit to declare that "God loves a cheerful giver" (II Cor.9:7). Why was not Paul inspired by God’s Holy Spirit to declare that, "God loves a cheerful tithe-payer?" In fact, why does not Paul mention the words tithe, tithes, or tithing in any of His thirteen epistles—not once? (Paul did not write the book of Hebrews, II Thes. 3:17)."

"But WOE unto you Pharisees! For ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over JUDGMENT and the LOVE OF GOD: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone" (Luke 11:42).

The Church: Christ's collective body of believers. Here on earth to continue with His mission of spreading the gospel.
So here we go. Yes! it costs money to do anything here on earth. Money CAN'T be ruled out of any matter. to claim otherwise would be a delusion.
Now each person has a specific role to play in the church and execution of these roles has a promise of a reward attached. but please pay attention here, anything done outside of love has no reward attached to it. this is where most of us miss it. we are so zealous for works, we are not conscious of love anymore.
Hey! We love God because He first loved us. we give because He gave for us. Jesus gave us a new commandment: he actually said the law is summed up in it; love thy neighbour as much as you would yourself.
Look, whatever you claim to be doing for God, if it isn't in done in love, does not count! you may say 'oh! i'm exercising faith, ' but brethren, compared with love, faith is a small issue. remember "there abideth these 3: Faith, Hope and Love. And the greatest of these is love".
you want to pay tithe? Pay it! But why do you do it? do you know?

Don't misunderstand me. God DOES require some action on the part of the believer, but the motive is really what he's concerned about.
Why do you pay your tithe? To get a blessing? to prove your commitment to God? To enjoy a special type of fellowship with the Spirit? Then if so, it's just dead work: no rewards, my friend.
Or do you do it because you have a made a choice of love? to give because you Know He gave for you? Because you understand the needs of church administration and you want to be a part of it? Because you love the Lord and would do anything for His body?
Look, do nothing without understanding. God is not a God of 'zombies'. People who go "Pastor said thus. Let's do thus"
Worship God with all your heart, soul and  might: In other words be acutely aware of all that you do. Wisdom is not far. it's free.
So much to be said, but I'm still at the office.

@Hnd-holder,

Hnd-holder:
"Paul was inspired by God's Holy Spirit to declare that "God loves a cheerful giver" (II Cor.9:7). Why was not Paul inspired by God’s Holy Spirit to declare that, "God loves a cheerful tithe-payer?"

If Paul were to write instead that God loves a cheerful "free-will giver", others would come up and argue again as to why Paul was not inspired to write instead that God loves a cheerful "simply-giver" or a cheerful "sacrificer" or "communicator", etc.

This is like arguing as to why Jesus did not say clearly that He is God; or why He didn't say that He is the Lamb of God.

What Paul was inspired to write is clearly a divine principle that covers all kinds of giving - tithes, free-will, etc. To strain at a gnat of hoping that Paul would have been inspired to write something instead, is the reason why so many people still miss the gist of what Scriptureteaches.

Hnd-holder:
In fact, why does not Paul mention the words tithe, tithes, or tithing in any of His thirteen epistles—not once? (Paul did not write the book of Hebrews, II Thes. 3:17)."

He indicated what it, I believe, in I Cor. 16:2. But because many people have a default mindset to argue against tithes, they also miss it. What did Paul mean in that verse by "as God hath prospered him"?

Hnd-holder:
"But WOE unto you Pharisees! For ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over JUDGMENT and the LOVE OF GOD: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone" (Luke 11:42).

I'm glad for your sake that you remembered to quote Luke 11:42. Now, read it again as well in Matt. 23:23 --

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

I hope you can see what the Lord pointed out in those verses?

"These ye ought to have done" and also "do not leave the other undone!"

Do these - do the others as well.

Tithing should not take precedence over the weigtier matters of the Law.

Thank you, but may I know if  any of the Scripture  writings  regarding voluntary giving, have anything to do with "tithing?"
If not,what the definition of Christian tithing is saying here

judemetieh:
Tithing is a biblical injuction, it was made when the Levites who where still doing the work of God where available, but remember that they at a point abandoned their duty post and as such who do you pay the tithe for now when the Levites have left their duty.  Secondly, tithing is 10% of total earnings.  How many people really pay it accordingly.  I as a person find it amusing when people say they pay tithe.  As they pay just from the salary they earn and forgeting about other incomes they make along side.  That is not tithing.  10% of all total income must be given to God.  anything short of that is robbing God.

A tenth part of one’s annual income contributed voluntarily or due as a tax, esp. for the support of the clergy or church." ( A. H. C.Dictionary, p. 1444).

Tithing was commanded by the LAW while Giving is voluntary from the HEART. Is that it?

Or it is right to say "…freely ye have received, freely give" (Matt. 10:8b) This is Biblical too

@D.baddie,

D.baddie:
So here we go. Yes! it costs money to do anything here on earth. Money CAN'T be ruled out of any matter. to claim otherwise would be a delusion.

TV01, wey you? Come talk to your brother O!  

Em, D.baddie, I read somewhere that TV01 doesn't think so. The preaching of the Gospel doesn't require money; or something to that effect, he has said before - and I may partly agree with both of you. . . until you explicate what you both and either mean.

D.baddie:
Hey! We love God because He first loved us. we give because He gave for us. Jesus gave us a new commandment: he actually said the law is summed up in it; love thy neighbour as much as you would yourself.

Slow down first. Since we give because He first gave us, where do you draw the line? Is that not the same "mandatory" giving that some people complain against?

D.baddie:
Look, whatever you claim to be doing for God, if it isn't in done in love, does not count! you may say 'oh! i'm exercising faith, ' but brethren, compared with love, faith is a small issue. remember "there abideth these 3: Faith, Hope and Love. And the greatest of these is love".
you want to pay tithe? Pay it! But why do you do it? do you know?

Okay. So if someone "pay" tithes in love, then according to you there's no wahala, abi? Can I ask you: do you pay anything - tithes, free-will, offerings, givings, etc? Why do you do it?

D.baddie:
Don't misunderstand me. God DOES require some action on the part of the believer, but the motive is really what he's concerned about.

God requires NOTHING! To slip in the idea of a "require" here is to make a simple response of worship actually mandatory.

D.baddie:
Why do you pay your tithe? To get a blessing? to prove your commitment to God? To enjoy a special type of fellowship with the Spirit? Then if so, it's just dead work: no rewards, my friend.

Same dead works if you make tithing or any other type of giving a thing to be classed as "God requires".

D.baddie:
Or do you do it because you have a made a choice of love? to give because you Know He gave for you? Because you understand the needs of church administration and you want to be a part of it? Because you love the Lord and would do anything for His body?
Look, do nothing without understanding. God is not a God of 'zombies'. People who go "Pastor said thus. Let's do thus"

The argument so far has not been based on what pastor said. We're examining what God's Word teaches. I think it is high time we stop this excuse of quickly blaming the flawed argument against tithes and other giving on what anyone says. To continue to do so weaken the persuasions of those who have nothing more than such excuses.

My Pastor does not have to sound it to me before I give or tithe. Even if another pastor disavows tithing because he's playing his blame-game on another pastor who said thus-and-thus, then again the latter pastor is a complainer rather than doing what God called him to do.

D.baddie:
Worship God with all your heart, soul and  might: In other words be acutely aware of all that you do. Wisdom is not far. it's free.
So much to be said, but I'm still at the office.

Tithes and givings are pat of our worship. Hebrews 13:16.

@Hnd-holder,

Please you guys should help this very interesting discussion move forward. It seems to me that most complaints are borne out of nitpicking gnats and failing to look at the bigger picture.

No offences, but here's a bit of a concern to me:

Hnd-holder:
Tithing was commanded by the LAW while Giving is voluntary from the HEART. It that it?

Could I be correct in saying that you see "tithing" as a command/commandment; while "giving" is voluntary/free-will because it was from the "HEART"??

What is the difference between "tithes" given from the HEART and "giving voluntarily" from the same HEART? Are we forgetting that people also gave from their HEARTS as well - whether tithes or other types of giving?

Exo. 25:2 - "Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering."

1 Chron. 29:9 - "Then the people rejoiced, for that they offered willingly, because with perfect heart they offered willingly to the LORD: and David the king also rejoiced with great joy."

There are several other verses that speak to the same effect; and I'm still wondering why many people feel that everytime a tithe is mentioned in the Bible, it MUST read as a commandment! Let me ask: who commanded Abraham to give TITHES to Melchizedek?


Wey bari_kade? We need serious help here O! You've inspired me to go read the OT deeply after your debate on the Sabbath Law; and you cannot leave me hanging here like that O!! 

God requires NOTHING! To slip in the idea of a "require" here is to make a simple response of worship actually mandatory.

What on earth do you mean by that? I don't follow.

Your previous lines state otherwise. Are you contradicting yourself?

I hope you can see what the Lord pointed out in those verses?

            "These ye ought to have done" and also "do not leave the other undone!"

              Do these - do the others as well.

Hey! I'm saying God requires worship. And these lines of yours state the same idea. so why would you try to drop the first line above? It's like you're contradicting yourself while trying to state your argument.
be careful.
i still dey enjoy you sha.