₦airaland Forum

TV01:
Like I said, please show us exactly where in scripture and how Christians - be they Jew or Gentile - were " practicing so many things derived directly from the Law of Moses". Could I ask that they not be inferred or mysterious or ordained but not specifically referenced. Ta !

you probably have missed Jesus saying in Luke 11:42  GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"How horrible it will be for you Pharisees!

You give [God] one-tenth of your mint, spices, and every garden herb.

But you have ignored justice and the love of God. You should have done these things without ignoring the others.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"But woe to you Pharisees! For you pay tithe of mint and rue and every kind of garden herb, and yet disregard justice and the love of God; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

King James Bible
But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


Jesus  would have seen them tithe dont you think so?

JJYOU:
Jesus would have seen them tithe don't you think so?

They are not sure and have been ever scuttling behind that verse. To them, it is a half-measure: "do this and not the other" is how they assume that verse reads - whereas it simply stands out clear: "these ought ye to have done and not to leave the other undone". I think if there was any verse they had hoped that tithes were ever condemned in the NT, it should have been that one - and we wonder why the Lord did not use that opportunity to tell them straight to cease from thence.

pilgrim.1:
I don't have any "Alagba" scholarship to showcase. The question is simple: a yes or no would have cleared you from this dribbling. Thank you.

Oh Pilly, regardless of my soft spot for you, I can't but wish you wouldn't take things so personal. ! Okay, as requested, NO!

pilgrim.1:
As above. A direct, simple, not dodgy answer would help show the sort of mindset you have. If playing these hide and seek games is all you have to show for your efforts, I think it may be best to leave you singing.

No dear, you know that's one of your ruses. I always state my position clearly and am willing to stand corrected - and eat pie if need be. Leading questions are just not in my chauvinistic repertoire ! How far?

Bless
TV

@ All,

Please forgive my somewhat __________ literary style, my often being ________ when discussing issues (fill the blanks as you please !), but my intentions are none the less sincere.

So as not to be tedious, or miss sight of the fact that the aim is to edify here, let me share this.

Gods has - in our relationship (with Him) and with each other - unchanging requirements across testaments and in all dispensations.

Micah 6:8 - He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?

Hosea 6:6 - For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Matthew 9:13 - But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."

Matthew 12:7 - But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless.

Mattew 23:23 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Please search for yourselves, there are numerous verses which attest to this.

In Matthew 23:23, this is what the Lord had in sight when rebuking the Scribes & Pharisees. The "weightier matters of the law" are these unchanging concepts. A written code - tithing etc - in achieving them is for Christians redundant. For those under the law both aspects should have been in view. They were judged hypocritical because despite their slavish adherence to the written code, they neglected the spirit behind it.

This is in no way enforcing the written code or parts of it on Christians surely that is abundantly clear?

God bless
TV

@TV01,

TV01:
Leading questions are just not in my chauvinistic repertoire ! How far?

Lol, brotherly. . . I dey. How body with you?

Okay, I shall try and heed the several godly counsels received offline to help me be more genial. . . never was so richly blessed as when there are friends who take note of what we share.

TV01:
Okay, as requested, NO!

Well, let me bring your attention to a few considerations:

      ● A.  The first thing to note is that every single time I have discussed issues
              from the Law, it should be clear that my persuasions are not rested
              on any idea of a legalistic application of Levitical rites and ceremonies;
              but rather the divine principles in the Old Testament that help to lead
              our thinking to understanding the meanings of Biblical concepts.

      ● B.  Secondly, there is a huge difference between what we see in matters
              pertaining to the old covenant and those discussed in Old Testament.
              While in the old covenant, we note the ceremonies, rites and services
              of the Levitical priesthood; the case of the Old Testament should help
              us more with understanding the principles of God's truths more broadly
              than merely the old covenant.

      ● C.  Hence, looking at (B) above, we note simply that the old covenant is
              not to be misconstrued for the Old Testament. The difference could be
              simply outlined thus:

                          old covenant   [size=14pt]↔[/size]   Levitical priesthood

                        Old Testament   [size=14pt]↔[/size]   Genesis to Malachi

               When we try not to confuse these matters, then it becomes easier to see
               the distinctions I have been trying to call all along.

Based on the above, I shall try and expound on examples in the New Testament.

JJYOU:
you probably have missed Jesus saying in Luke 11:42  GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"How horrible it will be for you Pharisees! But you have ignored justice and the love of God. You should have done these things without ignoring the others.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"But woe to you Pharisees! For you pay tithe of mint and rue and every kind of garden herb, and yet disregard justice and the love of God; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

King James Bible
But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


Jesus  would have seen them tithe don't you think so?

No JJYOU, I don't, as per my post above.

pilgrim.1:
They are not sure and have been ever scuttling behind that verse. To them, it is a half-measure: "do this and not the other" is how they assume that verse reads - whereas it simply stands out clear: "these ought ye to have done and not to leave the other undone". I think if there was any verse they had hoped that tithes were ever condemned in the NT, it should have been that one - and we wonder why the Lord did not use that opportunity to tell them straight to cease from thence.

Pilly dear, you know full well that the Scibes and Pharisees were under the written code which Christians are not bound by. Did The Lord fulfill the law? Yes, perfectly. He lived it in all it's aspects. Under the NT dispensation we shall fulfill the weigtier matters also, but not by a written code.

When that is fully understand and how it is to be achieved is grasped, all notions of tithing will hopefully disappear.

Gotta run, fellowship later.

God bless
TV

TV01:
Pilly dear, you know full well that the Scibes and Pharisees were under the written code which Christians are not bound by. Did The Lord fulfill the law? Yes, perfectly. He lived it in all it's aspects. Under the NT dispensation we shall fulfill the weigtier matters also, but not by a written code.

When that is fully understand and how it is to be achieved is grasped, all notions of tithing will hopefully disappear.

You're assuming things, my dear bros. That is why I want to take it step by step to show you what I have been calling attention to. It does not mean that my inferences should hold sway upon your life: but if you take the time to see where I'm coming from, you will see why one could not just pray that tithing would "hopefully disappear".

Regards.

@Josh.

Things still went on as usual while Jesus was still alive

His death on the cross changed things.

His sacrifice was the ultimate sacrifice

thats why the temple things had to be done away with.

No spiritual backing to any sacrifice done now.

tell me my dear sister what do we keep and what do we throw away? talk to me in honesty. you know i will still love you whatever you say

Following on from the outline above:

                          old covenant   [size=16pt]↔[/size]   Levitical priesthood

                        Old Testament   [size=16pt]↔[/size]   Genesis to Malachi

Several times in my submissions, even though I reiterated that my persuasions were not based on the old covenant (the Levitical priesthood), I often clearly stated that the Old Testament (Genesis to Malachi) also holds divine principles for our learning. That is why I earlier said that:

           there is a difference between -

           >  living by the old covenant; and

           >  learning from the Old Testament.


How do we understand these two issues? Some references already given:

          ●    Living by the old covenant under the Levitical priesthood:

                1 Corinthians 7:19
                Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing,
                but the keeping of the commandments of God
                ______________________________

          ●    Learning from the Old Testament:

                Romans 15:4
                For whatsoever things were written aforetime
                were written for our learning,
                that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures
                might have hope.

We do not mix these issues up at any one time: and for people who might have been doing so, it is not surprising that they keep looking into the Levitical law every single time "tithes" are mentioned.

More shortly.

You dont have to ask me that

Cant u see it for your self?

Things that were done in the temple

have no place now after Jesus's death and resurrection.

Because

One, We are now the temple

Two, The presence of God is everywhere

So its strictly a heart and faith thing now

Having distinguished these issues above, let's see where they appear in the body of the apostles' teachings and how they fit into our Christian faith based on the new covenant:

    ● A.   As far as the OT (Old Testament) is used in teaching NT doctrines,
             there are no issues of confusion there. We "learn from" so many
             OT scriptures that speak to us about doctrines on the Church life,
             practices, principles and relationships - and it doesn't matter that
             so many of these issues are found right in the Mosaic Law.
             Let's see a few of them:

             >  Loving God with all the heart, soul and mind (Matt. 22:37  ↔  Deut. 6:5)

             >  Children to honour their fathers and mothers (Eph. 6:1-2  ↔  Exo. 20:12)

However, in more direct instances, we find indeed that the Law of Moses was categorically referred to in issues that define Christian doctrine, faith and practice in the Churches. Perhaps, many people who have missed this very point need to be careful when they say that we're not under the Law but under grace. True as that is, the point here is that the same Law we many times disavow is that same Law that provides the basis of many Christian practices in the Church - and here are a few:

             >  where do we find the teacher that the women be silent in the churches?
                 1 Corinthians 14:34
                 'Let your women keep silence in the churches:
                  for it is not permitted unto them to speak;
                  but they are commanded to be under obedience,
                  as also saith the law'.

             >  where do we find that God was to speak to men with other tongues?
                 1 Corinthians [i]14:21[/i]            
                 'In the law it is written,
                 With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people;
                 and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.'

             >  where was apostle Paul quoting from in matters about ministry support?
                 1 Corinthians 9:9-10
                 'For it is written in the law of Moses,
                 Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn.
                 Doth God take care for oxen?
                 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes?
                 For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth
                 should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should
                 be partaker of his hope.

Of course there are so, so many more about these matters where our Christian doctrines in the Church derives particularly from the LAW; but then I hope you get my drift by now? Just imagine that that we often quote the Law as being "dead and buried" because we are under grace - the question that comes to mind is, why then were the apostles quoting directly from the OT Law as the foundation for particular Church practices and faith under the new covenant? No one can deny these matters - but they go to illustrate my point that these NT referrals for new covenant doctrines does not mean that we are applying the Law in a legalistic manner; else, that would mean that we were living our lives under the old covenant. But is that what is happening? We know better.

Yet, before people begin to wonder about these matters, let me quickly say here: how did the apostles treat the divine principles of the Law in the body of their NT teachings? A verse will help here:

        Romans 3:31
        Do we then make void the law through faith?
        God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Just because we are Christians does not mean that the Law has nothing to do with our faith. The distinction here is that the principles of the Law are not dispensed with in our Christian faith - and those principles (rather than legalism) are the things that define the several doctrines we find as quoted in the NT.

More later.

Hmm, na wah O! no mind me o jare. . . I was watching the X-factor!

Now, at least, there should no longer be a controversy as to the fact that the Law of Moses is used as the foundation of some new covenant Christian doctrines - it is not a matter of legalistic applications that migrate into the Church, but one of simple principles in the OT.

● B. As far as the old covenant (based on the Levitical priesthood) is concerned,
we should be looking at matters where the ceremonial rites, services, customs,
consequences, and effects in all their legal and literal applications do not have
a binding requirement upon the Christian. This is because of the following:

> the new covenant was ratified by the Blood of Christ, and not by the blood
of bulls and of goats that ratified the old covenant under the Levitical priesthood
(Hebrews 9:11-14).

> the Christian therefore is not under the legal status of the Levitical
priesthood in as much as he does not share in the blessings and curses
of the old covenant (Galatians 3:10)

> the old covenant did not justify anyone - either in the OT or NT.
This is why even the matter of "tithes" does not seek to justify anyone
since tithes were not a matter of justification by Law (Galatians 2:16).
Hence, when I speak about the principle of faith in tithing, please, please
and please, learn to look away from the Levitical priesthood - for that is
not where I derive my persuasions for tithing.

So, if we are not to live by the old covenant rites and ceremonies, how would we know what matters in the Law were discountenanced, and what others were taught as germane to the Christian faith and living? As earlier, I have shared on this matter to show that where the apostles wanted us to know what matters were particularly disavowed, they said so in very plain terms:

● circumcision -

~ 1 Cor. 7:18-19
Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised.
Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing,
but the keeping of the commandments of God"

~ Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing,
nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

~ Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing,
nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

How serious is this matter of a legalistic circumcision by the Law?
Very serious indeed, and the warnings in Scripture were given:

● Galatians 5:2-3
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised,
Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man
that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Is this not clear in itself? Circumcision was never used in Scripture as a "metaphor" for the Law - and the examples above did not say at anytime that "the Law is nothing", but rather, that "circumcision is nothing" - keeping them in their true contexts. The reason why this was seriously presented in such graphic terms in Scripture was to let us know that those who sought circumcision to please God were making themselves debtors under the Levitical rites - and because the new covenant in Christ that we have as Christians is not predicated on the Levitical priesthood, the apostle made clear that: "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" (Galatians 2:4).

It is important for people to understand that tithes were never once spoken in any place in the Bible in the same terms as was circumcision. Not one verse has anything such as that "tithes is nothing"; and you will never find the apostle anywhere saying that "if ye pay tithes, Christ shall profit you nothing". It is because people are too driven with some mentality to just read their own thoughts into the texts (eisegesis) that is why they treat tithes like circumcision whereas Scripture never treated it like that! Of course, there are other matters that were included in the Levitical rites that the NT discouraged in Christian living:
               
       ●   Jewish festivities  -  (observances of days)

                 ~ Galatians 4: 8-11
                 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them
                 which by nature are no gods. But now, after that ye have known God,
                 or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and
                 beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
                 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
                 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Let us make no mistakes about this: matters that were to be discouraged were plainly stated and no ambiguities were left. This is why up until now I have asked a simple question: for anyone to make tithes/tithing redundant, please find just one verse where tithing was condemned. Just one verse. Rather than lump everything up, you will not find that verse - not even one!

But what about another matter of the Law that Christians have argued over - the sabbath? I believe that the apostles were not ambiguous in this matter (and other matters as well): for they clearly spelt out the mind of the Lord on that one as well.

       ●   Jewish sabbaths  -

                 ~ Colossians 2:16-17
                 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink,
                 or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or
                 of the sabbath days:
                 Which are a shadow of things to come;
                 but the body is of Christ.


       ●   Jewish food laws  -

                 ~ Matthew 15:10-11
                 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
                 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; (*cf. Lev. 11)
                 but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

                 ~ Hebrews 13:9
                 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines.
                 For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace;
                 not with meats, which have not profited them that have been
                 occupied therein.

No one who carefully goes through these matters would have any difficulty understanding their contexts. Where God wanted us to know that He doesn't want us to be occupied with certain rites and ceremonies, He clearly stated them in the NT - without confusion. The problem with some of our brethren is that they are too much in a haste to just disregard the particular matters God speaks about and then arrive at the idea that He made this, that and the other "redundant" - and for all that, they cannot show where He ever said so!

It's my persuasion that the Word in the NT is clear as day! If God wanted us to dispense with tithes, He would have clearly stated it in the NT as we find for all the above. Those are by no means the only matters mentioned as not applicable on the Christian life: there are definitely more - and these all show that God wanted us to know what His mind on these issues were! Yet, not in one verse would any honest reader find where He ever condemned tithes.

Let me recap all these (B) part by noting how the apostle Paul lived his Christian life in these matters. Even though the same apostle was to note that:

                 ~ 1 Cor. 7:19
                  Circumcision is nothing,
                  and uncircumcision is nothing,
                  but the keeping of the commandments of God"

. . yet, we find him actually shaving his head, purifying himself according to Jewish rites as well as that he didn't quarrel at the offering made on their behalf - just to pacify the Jews and have the opportunity to speak with them (Acts 21:23-26). Not only so, he also determined to keep a Jewish feast - essentially for the same reason (Acts 18:21). Again, he had also allowed Timothy to be circumcised because of the Jews in those quarters (Acts 16:1-3), for no less the same reason. So, what effect did all these have on him? Would he have gone to Hell as another non-tither had argued against tithers?

No, there is something we should all notice here: Paul clearly said that: "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature" (Galatians 6:15). The rites of the Jewish festivities did not affect the Christian in any way - since they are not seeking to be justified by the Levitical rites!

I hope it is now clear to us how to see these matters, so that we don't run the risk of misjudging these matters and assuming that God had made something "redundant" which he never did! This is why I have again and again made a simple request: find me just one verse in the NT where tithes were condemned! If God wanted us to see what He discouraged, He clearly said so in the NT. But who are we that we should legislate for Him and begin to condemn anything that He never condemned?

Blessings all.

Gamine:
Things still went on as usual while Jesus was still alive

His death on the cross changed things.

His sacrifice was the ultimate sacrifice

thats why the temple things had to be done away with.

No spiritual backing to any sacrifice done now.

Thank you Sis' Gamine.

JJYOU:
tell me my dear sister what do we keep and what do we throw away? talk to me in honesty. you know i will still love you whatever you say

There are many of us lovin' the sister' delightful & insightful simplicity already.

Gamine:
You don't have to ask me that

can't u see it for your self?

Things that were done in the temple

have no place now after Jesus's death and resurrection.

Because

One, We are now the temple

Two, The presence of God is everywhere

So its strictly a heart and faith thing now

Out of the mouth of babes,

And so to the sharp end of this matter;

Trying to determine applicable elements of the law or parts the apostles overthrew or directly incorporated is a needless exercise. Looking prior to the law is unprofitable. The whole of history - before after and during the law - is pointing to one thing. The law and prophets themselves are pointing to one thing. Jesus. By Whom the law is "fulfilled".

Paul said this;

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, 4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Forget the law peeps, it's so behind. It’s backwards looking. No matter how scrupulously one masters it, applies it, or keeps it. Be that in part or in whole.

7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 

Did you really think it was down to doctrinal excellence or theological rigour? No, no and thrice no. It's by knowing Him being in Him and focusing on Him.

13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

It’s the grace to be found in Christ Jesus that is the key, not principles of the law or even ordinances or practices that were pre-law.

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Recourse to the mosaic law - for Christians - is nothing short of tragic.

2 Corinthians 8:1 Moreover, brethren, we make known to you the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia: 2 that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded in the riches of their liberality. 3 For I bear witness that according to their ability, yes, and beyond their ability, they were freely willing, 4 imploring us with much urgency that we would receive the gift and the fellowship of the ministering to the saints. 5 And not only as we had hoped, but they first gave themselves to the Lord, and then to us by the will of God. 6 So we urged Titus, that as he had begun, so he would also complete this grace in you as well. 7 But as you abound in everything--in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in all diligence, and in your love for us--see that you abound in this grace also.

I beseech thee brethren, don't give yourselves to figuring out which parts of the law "pertain", trying to glean "principles" from it, or "infer" relevance to it, give yourself to the Lord. Forget having to determine the bits to discard and those to keep, forget seeking solace in carnal ordinances or righteousness in fleshly commandments and give yourselves over to The Lord.

Quit fretting over ministers being cared for and temples not being built. Cease to worry over people not giving, the church not growing or the commission not being fulfilled and give yourselves over to the Lord.

May you abound in grace as you seek and know Him.
God bless
TV

_{John 1:16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.}

@TV01,

Good morning, and I trust you enjoyed your fellowship.

I'm really saddened for you because I'm going to be very firm in my reposte. The fact that you have resorted to the same tactics of fausse braie (false pitch) sentimentality to harp on what nobody is saying is unhealthy. If you had no answers to the simple question I asked (which was reason why I took time to be detailed) , all you needed to do is save these unnecessary remarks and stop pretending to be reading "the Law" as the basis of our tithing, where you know it has been repeatedly stated that is not the case.

TV01:
And so to the sharp end of this matter;

Trying to determine applicable elements of the law or parts the apostles overthrew or directly incorporated is a needless exercise. Looking prior to the law is unprofitable. The whole of history - before after and during the law - is pointing to one thing. The law and prophets themselves are pointing to one thing. Jesus. By Whom the law is "fulfilled".

You're just fussing and kicking at air. How many times did I share with the forum that indeed my persuasions on tithing are not based upon the Law? Because you can't seem to get over yourself and are too driven to see only the Law in all matters, that was why for your sake I made the distinctions and showed where the apostles quoted from the Law of Moses for Christian doctrines that even you have hypocritically used to argue the case of women keeping silence in the Church! If you knew it was indeed a needless exercise, why did you use the same text in your argument in the other case?

You guys are alarmingly lazy! If you even had any substance to your worries, these matters would not have been that difficult for you to see, nevermind that we have been through this in detail about the Law in another thread. All I expected you to do is fold your noise away and simply show where these matters were not so, in all the stuff I shared. At least, others have been open to point directly to particular references and discussed them genially. Why is it too difficult for you and your folks to do the same?

The basic question I keep asking the lot of your folks have forever remained unanswered. Do you know why? For the same reason that I knew you have been spinning yourselves on the same spot! Please forgive me - but I saw it ever since, and that is why I kept asking that same question: "show me just one verse where God ever condemned tithes" - just one verse! Have you found it yet? No - because you are seriously knotting yourself on the same huge mistake of looking at the Law and making circumcision a "metaphor" for it where you know deep in your heart that such an idea was a huge fallacy! Circumcision (as well as other matters of the old covenant) was specifically dealt with, and not in one instance did Paul use that as a metaphor for the Law. You make laws unto yourself to confuse your own mentality, and for all that you cannot even find one verse to help your mistakes.

TV01:
Forget the law peeps, it's so behind. It’s backwards looking. No matter how scrupulously one masters it, applies it, or keeps it. Be that in part or in whole.

You see your problem? That is why I continue to laugh at you! You spend all your days looking at the law only to come back worn out at your exercise - whereas I started sharing consistently that my persuasions for tithing were not based on the Law!

I am so sorry for you, TV01! You keep harping at what nobody has been saying, only to return folding your tail inbetween your legs. If you have nothing to share, all you needed to do is save yourself this risible joke! Have I been applying the Law to tithes, TV01? If that is not what I have been doing, why have you been miserably harping on endlessly about it?

TV01:
Did you really think it was down to doctrinal excellence or theological rigour? No, no and thrice no. It's by knowing Him being in Him and focusing on Him.

You make these lazy remarks when you know that your ideology has failed you and you had no answers to the simple one question I offered. You went into great length shouting "keep it simple", argued so much from a Law you had no clues about. . . and when your musings failed, you came back whinging about "doctrinal excellence". If you guys only sit in your congregation with blank pages, good for you. The day you ever come back yapping about any theological matter on the forum, I shall refer you to your carping here and see where you duck your hypocritic garb!

TV01, you should not make matters so bad for yourself! It is this kind of hypocrisy coming from believers that shames our Christian cause and make unbels laugh at our testimony! If great men of faith had listened to such harrumph from you, where would all the Bible Encyclopedia, Dictionaries, and Study Resources have been? Not that I make myself "great' by any measure - NO. But I wonder how silly you can sound sometimes when you know already that nobody has been making the same noise on the Law that you have been harping on.

TV01:
It’s the grace to be found in Christ Jesus that is the key, not principles of the law or even ordinances or practices that were pre-law.

Can I say it again: my persuasion for tithing is not based upon the Law but upon the power of an endless life!

Put it in another way: my tithing is based on the principle of the priesthood of Melchizedek and not on the Levitical priesthood - that should have helped you to see that I did not equate Melchizedek at any time with the Law! To keep harping on the Law was the reason I took time to share with you and your folks the difference so you don't keep confusing yourselves.

Nobody ever said (as far as I remember) that Christian tithing was not about grace, and your recourse to "pre-law" ordinaces is a serious joke - because I did not make any references to an ordinance in Abraham's case! If you ever wanted to be honest with yourself, you could not have missed where I have repeatedly said that Abraham tithing to Melchizedek was not under any Law, nor any commandments, nor any ordinances, nor any compulsion, nor even any excuses! Why these silly games you keep harping on every single time as a fausse braie for reading your misgivings into the position of others when they have repeatedly made these matters clear? Don't you think that is hypocritical on your part? You keep forcing a "Law" into tithing whereas I kept saying it was not about that Law!

TV01:
Recourse to the mosaic law - for Christians - is nothing short of tragic.

Here's your tragedy: who has been making any recourse to the Law for tithing? Please tell me - and I could come back and highlight your sanctimonious tartuffery here!

The funny thing in all this is that, even when I did not make any such recourse to the Law for tithing, you have not said anything about the distinctions I made where Paul quoted the Law of Moses for Christian doctrines practiced in the Church! I'm not surprised, actually - because what I did not argue for tithes, you will harp on endlessly and pretend people just can't see the difference!

TV01:
I beseech thee brethren, don't give yourselves to figuring out which parts of the law "pertain", trying to glean "principles" from it, or "infer" relevance to it, give yourself to the Lord.

Repeat after me: my persuasions for tithing are not predicated upon the Law! I have lost count of how many times I said that already. Refrain from this hypocrisy, dear bros, of pretending not to have noticed and then using the same false leg to harp on what nobody is saying!

TV01:
Forget having to determine the bits to discard and those to keep, forget seeking solace in carnal ordinances or righteousness in fleshly commandments and give yourselves over to The Lord.

Please repeat after me:

                > the old covenant did not justify anyone - either in the OT or NT.
                 This is why even the matter of "tithes" does not seek to justify anyone
                 since tithes were not a matter of justification by Law (Galatians 2:16).
                 Hence, when I speak about the principle of faith in tithing, please, please
                 and please, learn to look away from the Levitical priesthood - for that is
                 not where I derive my persuasions for tithing.

TV01:
Quit fretting over ministers being cared for and temples not being built. Cease to worry over people not giving, the church not growing or the commission not being fulfilled and give yourselves over to the Lord.

Quit preaching your sanctimonious poverty!

TV01:
May you abound in grace as you seek and know Him.

Amen - knowing the Lord does not come by pretentious superfluity of harping at what nobody has been saying.

More grace to you.

Just a small exercise for you and your folks, TV01:

TV01:
Forget the law peeps, it's so behind. It’s backwards looking. No matter how scrupulously one masters it, applies it, or keeps it. Be that in part or in whole.

I hear. Please could you and your folks let us know what you make of the following matter of the same Law you disdain? Here:

Romans 3:31 --
Do we then make void the law through faith?
God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Many thanks.

My fellow nairalanders this thread of tithe and 1% out your total income is good as bible recommends it,it is really good ,but to me i think that is one of the major reason we have so many fake man of gods,man of native gods in a church way, instead of man of God.it will be better to ban tithe and offerings in churches for sometime in naija lets see how many pastors that can stand it.

kevchina:
it will be better to ban tithe and offerings in churches for sometime in naija lets see how many pastors that can stand it.

Lol, bros, we shall get to that part of the discussion - then you will see that the problem is not tithes at all. Men who serve money do not use the term "tithes" to draw money from people's pockets - they use very clever other means to make merchandise of people.

Pilgrim,

You say you follow after the order of Melchizedec

Abraham gave this High Priest,the tithes directly

How do you give yours to Jesus, Who is now the High Priest?

Especially now that the need of temples has been eradicated?


There are so many parts of the law, that are good for man

but things that concern the temple and sacrifices have been fulfilled in Jesus.


Then again, the law cannot save

why should we dwell on it, given that the most important parts are established in Jesus.

Dear Gamine,

How body? Trust you've been having a good Sunday? I would have given just one line of answer; but permit me to be detailed once again so that nobody comes back confused about what I have often repeated.

Gamine:
Pilgrim,

You say you follow after the order of Melchizedec

Yes, but I just simply want to know: is there any problem with that at all?

This comment seems to be made too many times that I wonder if this is the first time ever that Christians are coming across it. I'm not seeking to make any issues out of it; but sometimes I wonder why people seem to react anytime Melchizedek is mentioned. Just curious.

Gamine:
Abraham gave this High Priest,the tithes directly

How do you give yours to Jesus, Who is now the High Priest?

I give my tithes in Church.

Gamine:
Especially now that the need of temples has been eradicated?

That does not mean at all that we should gather under rain and sun. People become too attached to the Levitical rites and temple ceremonies that we don't see anything beyond that. My tithes are not being given in Church to fulfill any Levitical temple rites. I have said so again and again, that I'm beginning to wonder what has been so difficult to grasp about that. Just curious about what I might be missing in sharing these points.

Gamine:
There are so many parts of the law, that are good for man

But why didn't anyone say so? Why have people been too shy to mention this very point until I deliberately challenged that shyness? Why all the talk all this while to thrash the Law when people who have not taken the time to study kept disavowing it? It was for this reason that I took time to be detailed and simply share the difference - to live by the Law is different from learning from the law.

Every single time I mentioned it and made clear that my reason for tithes are not predicated on the Law, the same response from our dear brethren was always "recourse to the Law". It is only now that we have come back acquiescing to the same fact that we once thrashed. We should always try to help ourselves about these matters, and I believe that help is not far from us.

Gamine:
but things that concern the temple and sacrifices have been fulfilled in Jesus.

My dear Gamine. . once again let me say it: please look away from the Levitical rites - that is not what I base my reasons for tithing upon. The Melchizedek priesthood did not derive from the temple sacrifices of the Levitical priesthood.

Let us say that we are asking another question: "by what Law do you tithe, pilgrim.1?" My answer is this: "No law - but rather, upon the power of an endless life as declared in Melchizedek's priesthood". Dear, I have tried again and again to help us distinguish this matter - not one time have I based my persuasion upon the sacrifices of the Levitical priesthood.

Lol, dear Gamine - I have said so many times: please, please and please people. . . when we look away from the ceremonial rites of the Levitical priesthood, and this matter will become clear as day for us all.

Gamine:
Then again, the law cannot save

Dear, but I already made that point so clear and had to repeat it again in detail:

                > the old covenant did not justify anyone - either in the OT or NT.
                 This is why even the matter of "tithes" does not seek to justify anyone
                 since tithes were not a matter of justification by Law (Galatians 2:16).
                 Hence, when I speak about the principle of faith in tithing, please, please
                 and please, learn to look away from the Levitical priesthood - for that is
                 not where I derive my persuasions for tithing.

Another way of saying it is that "nobody is saved by the Law" - and on that account, I noted that the law does not "justify" anybody. As such, if the Law does not justify anyone, would it not be silly of me to base my persuasion for tithing upon that same Law that does not save?  I knew already that the law does not justify or save anyone, and that is why I have often said that people should not hold on too tightly to this mentality of seeing only the Law in matters like this.

Gamine:
why should we dwell on it, given that the most important parts are established in Jesus.

I have not dwelt on it, Gamine; and besides, I'm not sure that there are any part that are less important that were not fulfilled by Christ. I already discussed in another thread how Christ fulfilled the whole Law.

When I tried to be concise on this matter, questions were raised, and I honestly welcomed them and tried to help. The only reason why I endeavoured to be detailed was because some of our brethren have been making every excuse under the sun to "condemn" tithes and make it "redundant" where God never said so anywhere! That was why I asked them the simple question for them to show me just one verse where God said that He condemned tithes at any one time! NOT ONCE!

I already knew these brethren would come back and wear themselves out on their own misgivings, and I only amused them on their own adventures. Bottomline: they are still looking hard for the verse where God "condemned" tithes - and they haven't found it! WHY? Because they have always had their eyes on the same Law they thrashed and had no clue for their own excuse. My approach now is to leave them a small exercise (without demanding that they must answer): could they tell us the meaning of -

    Romans 3:31 --
    Do we then make void the law through faith?
    God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Since the Law is believed by many to be thrashed, I am waiting to see how these lovely people would duck that one! I don't think it is a hard thing to simply allow these matters take their contextual place in the NT, rather than for people to always hastily be brash to dismiss what they have no clue about.

Shalom.

Hiya o!

Sunday has been cool.

I really would have prefered one line of answer

i must admit, i hardly read these long things

We are all learning, infact, im purging my mind of everything
ive learnt on tithing and not tithing to seek out these truths myself.

The questions i asked, i felt, where straightforward and could have been
dealt with, with simple answers

Anyways,

Jesus, is our High Priest after the order of Melchisedec.
The bible clearly states this, nothing wrong in it.

Lets not even get into the whole levitical priesthood thingy.

What is the order of Melchi?

The order differs from the person.

The order connotes the following;

1) He was both a King and a Priest, simultaneously:
2) He was the personification of the Names He bore, which were indicative of qualities of His character:
King of Righteousness, King of Salem which is also King of Peace; all this before and in the Eyes of God
3) He had no geneaological record, which was required for priesthood in the levitical order

Jesus follows this.SAS

About Tithing
Abraham wasnt commanded to do this, His decision to tithe was motivated by gratitude,
rather than obedience, fear of punishment, or even in order to obtain a blessing from God.

Jacob also, made a Vow to God of giving a tenth part, again Voluntarily.


In the Levitical order, The israelites were commanded to, since this order has been done away with , what do we have left?

Is it a sin to tithe? Of course not.

Christians are free to voluntarily tithe, just as they are free to voluntarily practice circumcision, rest one day a week, refrain from certain non-kosher foods, etc.
In fact, like i said before, they are of some good to man
But observing these things makes a person not one bit more pleasing in God’s sight.

And not observing these things makes a person not one bit less pleasing in God’s sight.
Our standing with God does not depend at all on whether or not we observe such practices.
People who do not tithe cannot be accused of "robbing" God or Disobeying Him.

There are commands in the Bible to Christians, such as "love one another" e.t.c
but tithing is not commanded to New Testament believers neither did it speak against it. A non-tither/Tither is not living in sin.

The problem is in believing that God still requires us to observe these things.

This is contrary to the grace of God and cheapens Christ’s precious blood that alone saves and sanctifies us.


We are all learning, and may God enlighten us daily!

Dear Gamine,

Let me start with this:

Gamine:
We are all learning, and may God enlighten us daily!

Amen.

Gamine:
I really would have prefered one line of answer

i must admit, i hardly read these long things

No worries - perhaps that is why I have to keep repeating myself over and over again at issues that I already mentioned?

Gamine:
We are all learning, infact, I'm purging my mind of everything
ive learnt on tithing and not tithing to seek out these truths myself.

Me too, because I feel it's quite an unhealthy position to take if one assumes he/she knows all ther is to know on any one subject.

Gamine:
The questions i asked, i felt, where straightforward and could have been
dealt with, with simple answers

Anyways,

Jesus, is our High Priest after the order of Melchisedec.
The bible clearly states this, nothing wrong in it.

Lets not even get into the whole levitical priesthood thingy.

Reason why I kept repeating myself endlessly about the Levitical priesthood was because our friends were ignoring what I had said about Melchizedek.

Gamine:
What is the order of Melchi?

The order differs from the person.

The order connotes the following;

1) He was both a King and a Priest, simultaneously:
2) He was the personification of the Names He bore, which were indicative of qualities of His character:
King of Righteousness, King of Salem which is also King of Peace; all this before and in the Eyes of God
3) He had no geneaological record, which was required for priesthood in the levitical order

Jesus follows this.SAS

Points I already considered, no?

Now, these are interesting -

1.[list]

Gamine:
Abraham wasnt commanded to do this,

[/list]

2.[list]

Gamine:
His decision to tithe was motivated by gratitude,

[/list]

3.[list]

Gamine:
rather than obedience, fear of punishment, or even in order to obtain a blessing from God.

[/list]

Good points - which I also mentioned much earlier.

1. [list]

Gamine:
Jacob also, made a Vow to God of giving a tenth part, again Voluntarily.

[/list]

Uhm,. . won't mention much there - other than that (IMHO) Jacob seemed to had mentioned tithes out of seeking a favour of God's protection (Genesis 28:20-22), no?

Gamine:
In the Levitical order, The israelites were commanded to, since this order has been done away with , what do we have left?

Lol, Gamine. . who are the "we" in that quote there?

I think your answer is right there in your quote. The Levitical order belonged only to Israel; it had nothing to do with any "we" (Gentiles) because "we" were never under that order in the first place!

This is why I keep begging. . people, please try to look away from the Levitical priesthood - that is not where my persuasions to tithe come from.

Gamine:

Is it a sin to tithe? Of course not.

Okay, glad to read that.

Gamine:
Christians are free to voluntarily tithe, just as they are free to voluntarily practice circumcision, rest one day a week, refrain from certain non-kosher foods, etc.

I'm not sure this is the what we see in the NT, though. Voluntarily tithing? Yes, we have no quarrels on that. But "voluntarily practice circumcision"? Hmm, I won't comment on that. They are just not the same in the NT.

Gamine:
In fact, like i said before, they are of some good to man
But observing these things makes a person not one bit more pleasing in God’s sight.

I take a different view - later perhaps?

Gamine:
And not observing these things makes a person not one bit less pleasing in God’s sight.
Our standing with God does not depend at all on whether or not we observe such practices.
People who do not tithe cannot be accused of "robbing" God or Disobeying Him.

I haven't come across tither recently who accuses non-tithers the way our non-tithing friends have incessantly done against their brethren.

Gamine:
There are commands in the Bible to Christians, such as "love one another" e.t.c
but tithing is not commanded to New Testament believers neither did it speak against it. A non-tither/Tither is not living in sin.

I don't think we should put these things to such extreme levels. Go back and see - I'm still waiting for an answer from those who allege that God made tithing redundant and yet cannot show precisely where that happened. Would these brethren agree with you that God did not speak against tithes?

Gamine:
The problem is in believing that God still requires us to observe these things.

I don't think so - at least, so many people have clearly said that it is not a requirement that should be endlessly emphasized. But what I have actually been endlessly repeating was that non-tithers often have tried to make it a matter of compulsion and requirements, and even when they were corrected, they wouldn't let up but kept the same misadventure and yet came to a confused inference.

Gamine:
This is contrary to the grace of God and cheapens Christ’s precious blood that alone saves and sanctifies us.

Tithing was not said in Scripture to be a matter of salvation or about the Blood of Christ - and to make that inference is to actually cheapen the discussion. Nobody ever predicated tithing as a matter of salvation, the Blood, justification, etc. We know that circumcision was outrightly discouraged in the NT; but where do we find it so said about tithes?

Shalom.

all this long talk because some people dont want to give out what is not theirs in the place. what did we bring into this world and what are we taking away when we die?

money is a tool it is not be all and end all of life

gently gently my people. Go is not despirately hungry. all this oyinbo because of one thousand naira is ridiculous. God has blessed some people beyond their widest immagination. 10% causing wahala here is a joke. some people in hospital beds would have love to give 101% if they can get their health yet people that can easily loose their jobs and source of income but for the grace of God are arguing percentage.

God owns it all. we are only custodians. there is nothing too much for the sake of God and His Christ

@Josh.

It is Voluntary

it wont be counted onto you as anything

tithing didnt make Abraham anymo righteous

why would it make you?

Gamine:
tithing didnt make Abraham anymo righteous

why would it make you?

Gamine, you keep missing the point by many miles. I don't remember anyone arguing that tithing made them righteous - is that what the discussion has been about? If not, why do people keep sounding this same note when nobody is connecting tithe to that idea at all? Just why?

gamine my dear. voluntary or no voluntary. doing good in the sight of God and man is always right. they say insanity is doing same thing over and over expecting different results. whatever abraham did that God didnt condemn would not be bad. abraham did not tithe to make God angry

i hear people sing abraham blessings are mine i like to hear to hear abraham obedience is mine too. it is not easy to give but we are talking about what does not belong to you in the first place.

it is beautiful to say we have God in our heart and treat Him as if we are bigger than Him

business are failing. millions are unemployed and people who but for the providence of God would never have a penny are talking about 10%. for the last time this is not about money, giving or 10%. it is about how much you love and appreciate God and how far you want to go with Him.

Does God want christians to tithe according to the pattern set by Abraham's tenth given to Melchisedek?

Yes, so says sister Pilgrim.

1) How come Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Malachi failed to notice this occurence? And if they did why did they not teach it to their offspring and the Prophets reminding the people their duty as derived from Abraham? Oh! sorry they operated Old covenant/LAW. Lets leave them.

2)How come Jesus, Peter, John, Matthew, Luke, Paul et al failed to teach us our christianly duty to pay tithe as a derivative of and following Abraham's example to Melchisedek?

My answer: No such teaching is intended or existed and can only be man's teaching/false doctrine


Pilgrim mentioned stewardship as one reason to pay tithe
My response: Our christian stewardship is not called to deliver money, food, offerings to an alter but to deliver lost souls to the Kingdom

Ovamboland:
Does God want christians to tithe according to the pattern set by Abraham's tenth given to Melchisedek?

Yes, so says sister Pilgrim.
1) How come Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Malachi failed to notice this occurence? And if they did why did they not teach it to their offspring and the Prophets reminding the people their duty as derived from Abraham? Oh! sorry they operated Old covenant/LAW. Lets leave them.

2)How come Jesus, Peter, John, Matthew, Luke, Paul et al failed to teach us our christianly duty to pay tithe as a derivative of and following Abraham's example to Melchisedek?

My answer: No such teaching is intended or existed and can only be man's teaching/false doctrine


Pilgrim mentioned stewardship as one reason to pay tithe
My response: Our christian stewardship is not called to deliver money, food, offerings to an alter but to deliver lost souls to the Kingdom

The truth is that my dear sister(Pilgim.1) having long realized that tithing can never be justified based on law (even though she keeps refering to it) she had to look for another way to justify it hence the inferals to Melchizedek's priesthood and the one off free will, non obligatory, unsolicited and un commanded tithes which he received from Abraham. It is very obvious even to the poorly schooled that there was no injunction, not even a minute suggestion that this one off act by Abraham is to be repeated by his descendants or followers. Another issue people fail to realise is that Melchizedek was a King and not Just a priest and it was on the basis of his being a king that Abraham gave him a tenth and not because he was a priest after all Abraham was a prophet of God. That apart  the tradition of tithing actually originated in ancient babylon and was also practised in ancient Egypt and their tithes were paid to kings in those days, it was a form of tax. People fail to realise that Abraham was not from Israel (he is the father of Israel) he actually came from the land of UR which is in mordern day Iraq (babylon).
for more on the the babylonian history of Abraham's tithe visit this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe i am sure my dear pilgrim.1 would be able to pick a thing or two from the site

you have to tithe if
you want to enjoy
the blessings of God

joy222:
you have to tithe if
you want to enjoy
the blessings of God

Well a lot lot of us(especially true christians who are under grace) are enjoying the blessings of God without tithing. And we are not under any imaginary curse