olabowale:

I just can't but state that Islam of Muhammad (AS) existed in Makka, for 13 years, with Muhammad, this muslim brothers and sisters and their Creator fighting a single fight. Though the Muslims were persecuted, and worse, men and women were killed or ran out of town. It is this oppression and evildoing of the makaans, and the people of taif and others that led to the minor Hijras (twice) to Abbysinia.

Yet Allah alone was capable of wiping off the face of the earth the Makkans and the people of Taif. Afterall, he defeated the army of the people of the Elephant, with any one fighting them. Afterall, the battle of the confederates was won without the muslims fighting. The battle of the trenches, was won by just the wind overcoming the disbelievers.

It is this oppression that finally ran Muhammad (AS) out of his beloved city, Makka. I remember that a woman whose father was named Surakat wanted to change it, as a last name, when she learnt that Surakat, a slave of a Makkan wealthy was sent to locate the hide out of the Prophet and Abu Bakr his companion (RA). I had to tell her that in the end Surakat became Muslim. And who was it among the makkans, that did not convert from some religion to Islam? So the initial deeds, before Islam did not matter.

It is a known fact that the makkans pursued Muhammad (AS) to the end. And it was the Grace and Protection of Allah that made it impossible for them to kill him. Surah Yasin;s verse 9 is a testament to the evilness of the Makkans.

Finally, as we speak about Mercy of Allah, in Surah Taha, verse 47 instructed Musa (AS) to appeal to the heart of Pharaoh, even though he had transgressed all bounds of evil limits! This is different from the Biblical "Let my people go!", to a nobility.

And when Muahmmad (AS) had an upperhand over the Makkans and the Taif people did kill all of them? The answer is obvious. This is different from what the Chrsitian Crusaders did in the Larger crusades, or what the Spaniards did in their inquisitions. Both worked for Jesus, Ghost god and Father god and not Allah or Muhammad His Slave. In surah Yusuf, we see how Allah inspired Yusuf to wholesale forgive his brothers, who plotted against him.

I asked a Christian if he will allow Hulk Hogan at the top of his game, in the 80s slaugh him on the right cheek. As hard as he can, and then turn the other cheek? This guy laughed and asked if I was kidding him. I said no, since your Bible called for turning the other cheek, I need to know the reality.

Am still waiting for his response, up till now.

I hope that I will have a sincere answer some day. The reality is this; no one will allow a person to slap him silly, twice. America has a saying: instead of fool me, I will say, slap me. So slap me once is on you. But slap me twice is truly on me. Only a fool will swallow such a garbage.

What was this intended to achieve? did u make ANY point at all?

Oyb and Olabowale, una dey try sha. Reading the ignorant hogwash noetic writes can be infuriating.
Imagine his comment, "you are not allowed to make reference to the hadith because this thread talks about Allah". First of all, who are you to give others conditions for posting replies? do you own the forum? Secondly, please avoid hadiths very well since you don't know what they actually are or their sources or even their uses.
What if the thread talks about Allah? Who told you hadiths have nothing to do with Allah?

fellis:

Oyb and Olabowale, una dey try sha. Reading the ignorant hogwash noetic writes can be infuriating.
Imagine his comment, "you are not allowed to make reference to the hadith because this thread talks about Allah". First of all, who are you to give others conditions for posting replies? do you own the forum? Secondly, please avoid hadiths very well since you don't know what they actually are or their sources or even their uses.
What if the thread talks about Allah? Who told you hadiths have nothing to do with Allah?

Because at some other times the same OYb and Olabowole will tell us it's not written in the Koran.
What am I still doing on this thread?

fellis:

Oyb and Olabowale, una dey try sha. Reading the ignorant hogwash noetic writes can be infuriating.
Imagine his comment, "you are not allowed to make reference to the hadith because this thread talks about Allah". First of all, who are you to give others conditions for posting replies? do you own the forum? Secondly, please avoid hadiths very well since you don't know what they actually are or their sources or even their uses.
What if the thread talks about Allah? Who told you hadiths have nothing to do with Allah?

thou pathetic ignoramus, . . .do u know the meaning of ignorance?

did allah write the haddith?

1TI 1:13  Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a
violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

this has to be the kicker 

LUKE 12:10, "And everyone that says a word against the Son of Man, that will be forgiven; But he that blasphemes against The Holy Spirit will not be forgiven
.
MARK 3:29, "Whoever blasphemes against The Holy Spirit will never have forgiveness, but is guilty of everlasting sin."
MATTHEW 12: 31-32 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come".

so, who to believe? plus, who exactly did paul blaspheme? it seems one needs to be using some serious mind altering substances to come to terms with the multiple contracdictions that pass for christain doctrine  - actually says alot about noetic - he clearly has a 'dude where's my car' thing going on


osisi posted a completely different interpretation which i quoted. what exactly do you guys stand for , anyway

did allah write the haddith?

Because at some other times the same OYb and Olabowole will tell us it's not written in the Koran.

yup christians cannot agree on anything 

oyb:

this has to be the kicker 


so, who to believe? plus, who exactly did paul blaspheme? it seems one needs to be using some serious mind altering substances to come to terms with the multiple contracdictions that pass for christain doctrine  - actually says alot about noetic - he clearly has a 'dude where's my car' thing going on 


osisi posted a completely different interpretation which i quoted. what exactly do you guys stand for , anyway 





yup christians cannot agree on anything 

what do u understand by BLASPHEMY ?

noetic2:

thou pathetic ignoramus, . . .do u know the meaning of ignorance?

did allah write the haddith?

No. But I would advise you to go and look for the meaning of "Hadith". Sure if you knew you would not have made such a childish comment.

muhsin:

No. But I would advise you to go and look for the meaning of "Hadith". Sure if you knew you would not have made such a childish comment.

instead of making evasive comments, why not answer my questions?

Every verse of the Quran is a response to inquires or prevailing situations that was and always on ground within Muslims, and mankind at large!

So when a person foolishly asked if Allah the Most Forgiving ever forgave anyone, one sees very clearly that the questioner is ignorant and deluded. If one is to consider the very names of Allah: Al Afuww, Al Gafur, Al Rahman, Al Haleem, etc. One will see that the very names denote that He is the Only One who can forgive. Meaning, if any were to forgive you and Allah does not on the same matter, you are the loser!

I was listening to the life history of Umar Al farooq (a root word derived from Furqan) bin Khattab yesterday, and his migration to Madina was what I wanted to toch on:

His migration companion was a brother of Abu Jahal (Laana tullah Alal kafirin), whom they lied to, as he and Umar arrived in Madina. They got him back to Makka from Madina by tying him up on the Camel that Umar loaned him.

In time Umar was sad about the condition of his friend in Makka, so he asked the prophet about what is the condition of people like that with Allah. Immediately, Allah revealed to Muhammad the verse of the Quran that says to former Muslims and Muslims and nonMuslims as they will enter Islam, that those of His slaves who have transgressed should not lose hope in the forgiveness of Allah, that He forgives all sins, again and again.

This revelation when it got to this man in Makka, in time he left back for Madina and return to Islam.


Is it not clear then that Allah is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful and Practices the Best of Graciousness and Justice?

For the Muslims who will like to listen to the tape; please google video: Umar bin Khattab. Its the second or the third of 18 parters.

For me I think except that a person is willing to be just and fair in conversation, no one should discuss with the disbelievers, because they are always unjust and can't e trusted, because they toll the line of their leaders: their Malaa. Read the Quran. Allah talks about the Malaas of the disbelievers who pull the strings of their masses. The masses just respond to them, without question. I call it zombie syndrome.

Umar Ibn Al Khattab (2nd Caliph of Islam) 3/18

olabowale:

Every verse of the Quran is a response to inquires or prevailing situations that was and always on ground within Muslims, and mankind at large!

So when a person foolishly asked if Allah the Most Forgiving ever forgave anyone, one sees very clearly that the questioner is ignorant and deluded. If one is to consider the very names of Allah: Al Afuww, Al Gafur, Al Rahman, Al Haleem, etc. One will see that the very names denote that He is the Only One who can forgive. Meaning, if any were to forgive you and Allah does not on the same matter, you are the loser!

I have repeatedly told u to stop displaying ur raw ignorance juxtaposed with massive illiteracy. The names of a person are worthless if they do not correspond to his/her deeds. What are the instances where ur allah showed forgiveness?

I was listening to the life history of Umar Al farooq (a root word derived from Furqan) bin Khattab yesterday, and his migration to Madina was what I wanted to toch on:

His migration companion was a brother of Abu Jahal (Laana tullah Alal kafirin), whom they lied to, as he and Umar arrived in Madina. They got him back to Makka from Madina by tying him up on the Camel that Umar loaned him.

In time Umar was sad about the condition of his friend in Makka, so he asked the prophet about what is the condition of people like that with Allah. Immediately, Allah revealed to Muhammad the verse of the Quran that says to former Muslims and Muslims and nonMuslims as they will enter Islam, that those of His slaves who have transgressed should not lose hope in the forgiveness of Allah, that He forgives all sins, again and again.

This revelation when it got to this man in Makka, in time he left back for Madina and return to Islam.


Is it not clear then that Allah is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful and Practices the Best of Graciousness and Justice?

For the Muslims who will like to listen to the tape; please google video: Umar bin Khattab. Its the second or the third of 18 parters.

For me I think except that a person is willing to be just and fair in conversation, no one should discuss with the disbelievers, because they are always unjust and can't e trusted, because they toll the line of their leaders: their Malaa. Read the Quran. Allah talks about the Malaas of the disbelievers who pull the strings of their masses. The masses just respond to them, without question. I call it zombie syndrome.

where EXACTLY is this falsified misinformation stated in ur koran?

muhsin:

The Almighty Allah says with regard to the Christians:

"Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."(5:74)

NOTE: The door is not closed!

why does allah not forgive his faithful muslims . . . .why does he ask that they be beheaded, amputated, killed or flogged?
why did allah decree all muslims to hell fire? why did allah condone husbands who beat their wives and not forgive them?
why does allah say something and does something else? why is allah such a contradiction? why? why allah? why?

allah claims that the bible is corrupt. . . .what stops allah from producing the original bible?

noetic2:

why does allah not forgive his faithful muslims . . . .why does he ask that they be beheaded, amputated, killed or flogged?
why did allah decree all muslims to hell fire? why did allah condone husbands who beat their wives and not forgive them?

Oh. . .thanks to Allah (S.W.T)! I now realize I had been under a "false impression". Why? Wallahi I thought you, noetic2, were more intelligent and perceptive than how you actually are. Lets reason something here.

Faithful Muslims are asked that they be beheaded, amputated, etc? Why are they asked so? 'Cause of no reasons, NO! But because they did something very grave, e.g. who killed should be killed; a thief (who stole goods, for instance of certain value) should be amputated; an adulterer be stoned, etc YET you are saying they should be forgiven. What a rubbish!

And secondly, he so-called CONDONE husband who beats wife? And that beating, which is cautioned to be LIGHT!

My question: Beating or perpetuating any of these actions that their doers are ordered to be killed, stoned, etc, which one deserves punishment?

Allah never decree all Muslims to hell. You, time more than count, talk of these verses and are always aptly explained to you. Please don't sound obtuse.

noetic2:

allah claims that the bible is corrupt. . . .what stops allah from producing the original bible?

What is Qur'an? It's the Last and Guarded Testament of the Bible.

Man, stop beating about the bush. Open your heart and understand the truth. As I say; it's not yet over. I read some years ago an octogenarian traditional leader there in Lagos embraced Islam. I can logically guess you are younger than that.

Ciao!

muhsin:

Oh. . .thanks to Allah (S.W.T)! I now realize I had been under a "false impression". Why? Wallahi I thought you, noetic2, were more intelligent and perceptive than how you actually are. Lets reason something here.

Faithful Muslims are asked that they be beheaded, amputated, etc? Why are they asked so? 'Cause of no reasons, NO! But because they did something very grave, e.g. who killed should be killed; a thief (who stole goods, for instance of certain value) should be amputated; an adulterer be stoned, etc YET you are saying they should be forgiven. What a rubbish!

And secondly, he so-called CONDONE husband who beats wife? And that beating, which is cautioned to be LIGHT!

My question: Beating or perpetuating any of these actions that their doers are ordered to be killed, stoned, etc, which one deserves punishment?

Allah never decree all Muslims to hell. You, time more than count, talk of these verses and are always aptly explained to you. Please don't sound obtuse.

This is outrageously ridiculous.

Is forgiveness not in allah's dictionary? is forgiveness not an option to allah? So y the senseless and inhuman atrocities in the name of punishment?

What is Qur'an? It's the Last and Guarded Testament of the Bible.

Man, stop beating about the bush. Open your heart and understand the truth. As I say; it's not yet over. I read some years ago an octogenarian traditional leader there in Lagos embraced Islam. I can logically guess you are younger than that.

Ciao!

I have opened my heart and I want to receive the truth.

So it is now up to u and allah to produce the ORIGINAL BIBLE so that I can see the truth.

noetic2:

why does allah not forgive his faithful muslims . . . .why does he ask that they be beheaded, amputated, killed or flogged?
why did allah decree all muslims to hell fire? why did allah condone husbands who beat their wives and not forgive them?
why does allah say something and does something else? why is allah such a contradiction? why? why allah? why?

allah claims that the bible is corrupt. . . .what stops allah from producing the original bible?

It is like your question always turn the truth in upside down. You perceive Islam different from what muslims believe it to be. Where do you find contradictions in Allah's words? Allah promise forgiveness for everybody who turn sincerely in repentance as long as the person is still breathing. The same way he did for the first created man and forgiveness thereafter. Allah promise rewards for every deed and punishment for who does otherwise. The intercession after judgment is for those who does not associate partnership with God almighty. That is why prophet Muhammad says:"whoever believe there is no deity worthy of worship save Allah(God) will enter paradise".

Be sincere to yourself and understand Islam by start reading Quran and not just ordinary copy and paste propaganda.

littleb:

It is like your question always turn the truth in upside down. You perceive Islam different from what muslims believe it to be. Where do you find contradictions in Allah's words? Allah promise forgiveness for everybody who turn sincerely in repentance as long as the person is still breathing. The same way he did for the first created man and forgiveness thereafter. Allah promise rewards for every deed and punishment for who does otherwise. The intercession after judgment is for those who does not associate partnership with God almighty. That is why prophet Muhammad says:"whoever believe there is no deity worthy of worship save Allah(God) will enter paradise".

Be sincere to yourself and understand Islam by start reading Quran and not just ordinary copy and paste propaganda.

Whats the meaning of all these u have stated?

If allah is forgiving, why does he ask u guys to amputate, behead, flog and kill others (jihad)? u either answer the question or . . . .

noetic2:

Whats the meaning of all these u have stated?

If allah is forgiving, why does he ask u guys to amputate, behead, flog and kill others (jihad)? u either answer the question or . . . .

Head or tail of your questions do I need to answer? Why do we have laws? Is there laws in Christianity? If there is none, how do you pronounce judgement on criminals?

@neotic,
If you can be more objective and reasons together maybe we can iron out the areas we differ. meanwhile,my battery is low. The issue of amputation or behead a criminal shouldn't be an issue. my battery is low,

littleb:

Head or tail of your questions do I need to answer? Why do we have laws? Is there laws in Christianity? If there is none, how do you pronounce judgement on criminals?

littleb:

@neotic,
If you can be more objective and reasons together maybe we can iron out the areas we differ. meanwhile,my battery is low. The issue of amputation or behead a criminal shouldn't be an issue. my battery is low,

instead of going through all this. . . .u could as well just answer my questions.

@noetic2,

You really need to be more rational and logical. You mean Allah (SWT) should condone killers, thieves and other executors of grave offenses, and yet, He should NOT condone husbands beating their wives? What an illogic and, I don't wanna say; insanity?

A question to you: What is said in your bible regarding the killers, thieves, etc? Set free?

@noetic
Is there penal codes according to christianity? What is it essence? How should it be carried out? I believe you are aware of that of Islam, though you may not be well informed about its details. Just compare it, if it is the same, then, your questions are no question at all. If otherwise or there is none in christianity? Then, how could you judge a criminal when adage says:"when there is no laws, there is no sins".

The laws are made to guide and promote peace, and they are accompanied with accorded punishment for the violators, though in some circumstances, the criminal maybe forgiven instead. Morover, Islam hold that the purpose of punishment are three, Retribution, deterrents and  reformations. Retribution in the case of "eye for an eye". Deterrents for who might intending to commits such offence in future and reformation for the case of who still living amongst the criminals, for example, the release criminal from jail, at least might have changed his/her life for better. On the case of forgiveness, undoubtedly, any environment where the huge of criminals are leaving unpunish will  be flourishing in corrupt practices, this is evidenced by what is happening in our country now.  In contrary to your own objection on Islam, is it not safe to lose a criminal or a criminal lose a limb in order to save many life than to put the whole community in jeopardy by allowing free movement of criminals in the society! It is up to whoever want to adhere to the truth. Just be objective and respond according to Jesus teachings.

muhsin:

@noetic2,

You really need to be more rational and logical. You mean Allah (SWT) should condone killers, thieves and other executors of grave offenses, and yet, He should NOT condone husbands beating their wives? What an illogic and, I don't wanna say; insanity?

A question to you: What is said in your bible regarding the killers, thieves, etc? Set free?

littleb:

@noetic
Is there penal codes according to christianity? What is it essence? How should it be carried out? I believe you are aware of that of Islam, though you may not be well informed about its details. Just compare it, if it is the same, then, your questions are no question at all. If otherwise or there is none in christianity? Then, how could you judge a criminal when adage says:"when there is no laws, there is no sins".

The laws are made to guide and promote peace, and they are accompanied with accorded punishment for the violators, though in some circumstances, the criminal maybe forgiven instead. Morover, Islam hold that the purpose of punishment are three, Retribution, deterrents and reformations. Retribution in the case of "eye for an eye". Deterrents for who might intending to commits such offence in future and reformation for the case of who still living amongst the criminals, for example, the release criminal from jail, at least might have changed his/her life for better. On the case of forgiveness, undoubtedly, any environment where the huge of criminals are leaving unpunish will be flourishing in corrupt practices, this is evidenced by what is happening in our country now. In contrary to your own objection on Islam, is it not safe to lose a criminal or a criminal lose a limb in order to save many life than to put the whole community in jeopardy by allowing free movement of criminals in the society! It is up to whoever want to adhere to the truth. Just be objective and respond according to Jesus teachings.

why do u two enjoy evading my questions? unless and until u at least attempt to answer my questions, u have said nothing.

noetic2:

why do u two enjoy evading my questions? unless and until u at least attempt to answer my questions, u have said nothing.

You only keep on extending the conversation. There has not been any meaningful response from you. The subject of your question is centered on punishment, which I explained and I asked if you have similar thing in christianity. I don't know which response you want again. If I may put you straight, you asked:
why amputation? Amputation is for thief
why killing ? A retribution for whoever killed or hardened criminal e.g armed robbers
why husband will beat his wife and not forgiven? On matrimonial relation, beating shouldn't occur except if all other methods have been tried and it shouldn't be heavy.
why contradiction? There is no contradiction
why Allah decree muslims hellfire? Allah never decree all muslims hellfire

So, now answer my questions:
Is there penal codes according to christianity? What is it essence? How should it be carried out?

littleb:

You only keep on extending the conversation. There has not been any meaningful response from you. The subject of your question is centered on punishment, which I explained and I asked if you have similar thing in christianity. I don't know which response you want again. If I may put you straight, you asked:
why amputation? Amputation is for thief
why killing ? A retribution for whoever killed or hardened criminal e.g armed robbers
why husband will beat his wife and not forgiven? On matrimonial relation, beating shouldn't occur except if all other methods have been tried and it shouldn't be heavy.
why contradiction? There is no contradiction
why Allah decree muslims hellfire? Allah never decree all muslims hellfire

did u read the title of this thread at all? whats the meaning of all these u are stating here?

why cant allah forgive all these people? why does he choose to kill, amputate, behead and flog them?
which if these questions is too difficult for u to answer?

So, now answer my questions:
Is there penal codes according to christianity? What is it essence? How should it be carried out?

This thread is not about christian beliefs. But no, there is no penal code for anyone any more in christianity. it is called FORGIVENESS. He also asked us to pray for our enemies, apostates e.t.c. and not to kill them.

Littleb, I understand that this was part of your post,
'. . . . . Islam holds that the purpose of punishment are three; RETRIBUTION, DETERRENTS AND REFORMATION. . . . . '. Not so?

If Islam is truly peaceful as they say, why the suicide bombing, killing of daughter simply because she turns to Christianity, can't just start naming those devilish acts in the name of islam

fellis:

Littleb, I understand that this was part of your post,
'. . . . . Islam holds that the purpose of punishment are three; RETRIBUTION, DETERRENTS AND REFORMATION. . . . . '. Not so?

why is FORGIVENESS not on the list?

Sometimes after reading some of your posts, such as the one above, I just wonder about your level of IQ.

fellis:

Sometimes after reading some of your posts, such as the one above, I just wonder about your level of IQ.

but u still havent answered my question.

@neotic:

Quote from: fellis on Today at 06:45:25 PM
Littleb, I understand that this was part of your post,
'. . . . . Islam holds that the purpose of punishment are three; RETRIBUTION, DETERRENTS AND REFORMATION. . . . . '. Not so?

why is FORGIVENESS not on the list?

Don't you understand english? When you define punishment, is forgiveness part of it? If somebody is not punished then he/she is forgiven. While if he/she is punished, then, the result of punishment could yeild reformation and deter others who might think of committing the same crime. Criminals are punished but not in all cases according to Islamic laws. However, there is no absolute forgiveness for all criminals, there are several situations where criminals is warn(on trial whether he would change or not) or imprisoned for a specified period. How would you think Allah is not forgiven when He said in many verses that he is capable of forgiven all sins.

This thread is not about christian beliefs. But no, there is no penal code for anyone any more in christianity. it is called FORGIVENESS. He also asked us to pray for our enemies, apostates e.t.c. and not to kill them.

I just laugh at your statement, and I belief there is no where in the world where your thought will be accepted if it is a proposal. Just read it to yourself and how applicable it is, if all criminals can move freely on the streets without being punished, then people can start committing crime as they wished since they known there is no punishment. Even, according to your bible, Jesus said he came to fulfill laws, then where do you belong? I will wait for your response on this!

littleb:

@neotic:
Don't you understand english? When you define punishment, is forgiveness part of it? If somebody is not punished then he/she is forgiven. While if he/she is punished, then, the result of punishment could yeild reformation and deter others who might think of committing the same crime. Criminals are punished but not in all cases according to Islamic laws. However, there is no absolute forgiveness for all criminals, there are several situations where criminals is warn(on trial whether he would change or not) or imprisoned for a specified period. How would you think Allah is not forgiven when He said in many verses that he is capable of forgiven all sins.

Did u ever attend the four walls of ANY academic learning environment? did u ever go to a school? I doubt u did.

Cant u see the topic of discussion? its all about allah and forgiveness. why is forgiveness a very big deal to allah? I hate repeating myself.

I just laugh at your statement, and I belief there is no where in the world where your thought will be accepted if it is a proposal. Just read it to yourself and how applicable it is, if all criminals can move freely on the streets without being punished, then people can start committing crime as they wished since they known there is no punishment. Even, according to your bible,

Islam is a religion by which muslims are expected to subscribe to. . . , it is not the paradigm by which all humans regardless of their beliefs are to subscribe to. why does ur allah refuse to encourage u to forgive these people?

is there any evidence of ANYONE in the koran who allah forgave?

Jesus said he came to fulfill laws, then where do you belong? I will wait for your response on this!

He definitely did not come to fulfil allah's sharia law that knows no forgiveness.