Bismillahir-Rahmanir-Raheem,

This thread is not out-and-out mean to hot the feeling neither insult or abuse anyone's belief here. It's mean to appraise, find out and conclude on a certain issue which is being quite unexplainable and thus unclear to many. May the Almighty God guide us, amen.

Are the prophets all sent by God?

Jesus, on whom be peace, says:
"Do you think that I have come to do away with the Law of Moses and the Teachings of the Prophets. I have not come to do away with them, but to make the teachings come true." (Mathew, 5:17)

The above verse tells us that the Message of these prophets is the same.

What is[i] that[/i] message (commandment)?

Moses, on whom be peace, was asked of it and he answered:
"Israel, remember this! The Lord our God is one." (Deutonomy, 6:4)

It's said to Prophet Isaiah,
"The Lord, who rules and protect Israel, the Lord Almighty, has this to say: "I am the first, the last, the only God; there is no other god but me." (Isaiah, 44:6)

Jesus, on whom be peace, says:
"Jesus replied, "The most important one is this: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God is the only Lord" (Mark, 12:29)

Noah, on whom be peace, said in Qur'an 33:23 that God is One.

Hood, on whom be peace, in Qur'an 7:59 said the same.

Salih, on whom be peace, in Qur'an 7:65 also said the same.

Shu'aib, on whom be peace, in the same vein uttered the same in Qur'an 7:73.

Allah says unto Muhammad, on whom be peace,: "And We sent no messenger before you but commended him to inform his people that there is no true God except I; therefore worship Me alone. (Qur'an 21:25).

We can see, evidently enough, that the God of the prophets is that One true God, and to Him alone all worships are called to. (Mark, 12:26)

Moreover, neither Muhammad nor Jesus came to change the basic doctrine of the belief in One God, brought by the earlier prophets, but rather to confirm and renew it.

Who is that "One true God"?

Allah is the God. The name Allah is the Arabic word for God. More precisely, it is the One Eternal Creator, Lord of the whole universe. It is the same Arabic name for God that is use in the Arabic Bibles. Thats in brief.

Why would not we worship Him?

"Say "O people of the Scripture--Christians and the Jews, come to a word that is equitable between us and you--that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with him and not take one another as lords, instead of Allah. . ."(3:64)

"Can there be another god besides Allah (God)? High is Allah above what they associate with Him."(27: 63)

Isaiah, 44:6 God says He is the first and the last and beside him there is no any god.

Still in Isaiah, 44:6 He asks either there is any God beside him. There is none.

You see? The whole Laws/Teaching/Commandment is ONE=worship God/Allah alone. Jesus, on whom be peace, has never said I am God so worship me. And the word "trinity" is nowhere in the Bible. The whole concept was derived from the words of John, who never met Jesus.

The myth of trinity gradually crept into Christianity, influenced by pegan belief and Greek mythology, an was adopted by Council of Nicaean in 325 CE, according to scholars of both Christianity and Islam.

Thanks for your good comprehension.

Muhsin

You people are funny. You create threads and when you sense some posts exposes the weaknesses inyour religion, you keep deleting them. Pity

@Nezan,

For God's sake, can't you be a bit more fair? Both "I" and Abuzola's threads were locked yesterday. And I swear with the Almighty God nothing like insult, abuse, blasphemy, etc was said in these threads. But here, fairly enough, read $Osisi's threads. . .

Respect the OP and write your input rationally, intelligently and reasonably. Or else remain mute. Is there anything hard? Nope.

Thanks

muhsin:

Are the prophets all sent by God?

The biblical prophets are clearly defined . . . they have nothing to do with islam.

muhsin:

Jesus, on whom be peace, says:
"Do you think that I have come to do away with the Law of Moses and the Teachings of the Prophets. I have not come to do away with them, but to make the teachings come true." (Mathew, 5:17)

The above verse tells us that the Message of these prophets is the same.

This is rubbish:

1. The quran says the bible is corrupt, so on what basis are you using that same bible to make an islamic point?

2. Exactly what "message" did the prophets bring? The biblical prophets ALL came SPECIFICALLY to the jews. It wasnt until Christ's death and resurrection that salvation became open to the gentiles. So whatever message the prophets brought was certainly NOT similar to that of mohammad who wasnt even a jew in the first place.

muhsin:

What is[i] that[/i] message (commandment)?

Moses, on whom be peace, was asked of it and he answered:
"Israel, remember this! The Lord our God is one." (Deutonomy, 6:4)

It's said to Prophet Isaiah,
"The Lord, who rules and protect Israel, the Lord Almighty, has this to say: "I am the first, the last, the only God; there is no other god but me." (Isaiah, 44:6)

Jesus, on whom be peace, says:
"Jesus replied, "The most important one is this: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God is the only Lord" (Mark, 12:29)

Noah, on whom be peace, said in Qur'an 33:23 that God is One.

Hood, on whom be peace, in Qur'an 7:59 said the same.

Salih, on whom be peace, in Qur'an 7:65 also said the same.

Shu'aib, on whom be peace, in the same vein uttered the same in Qur'an 7:73.

this is more unintelligent and dishonest rubbish. Moses gave 10 commandments to the jews, Samuel didnt come speaking "the Lord your God is one" neither did Noah (who wasnt even a prophet except in mohammad's fraudulent world), Ezekiel or Jeremiah . . . so did all these not come with a "message"?

To quote Noah from the quran is just laughably stupid . . . Noah died more than 5000 yrs before that quran was written . . . so from whom did that alleged quote come from?

muhsin:

Allah says unto Muhammad, on whom be peace,: "And We sent no messenger before you but commended him to inform his people that there is no true God except I; therefore worship Me alone. (Qur'an 21:25).

We can see, evidently enough, that the God of the prophets is that One true God, and to Him alone all worships are called to. (Mark, 12:26)

what we can "see evidently" is that the "god" of mohammad could not have been the same as that of Noah, Samuel, Jeremiah or Isaiah. None of them were political leaders or warriors or husbands of 6yr olds with concubines. Infact many of them paid dearly for their faith with their lives . . . they were mocked, beaten, jailed and killed for daring to oppose the rulers of their day with the Word of the Lord.

Meek men like Moses, faithful servants like Micah, mighty men of faith like Elijah . . . could not have been from the same God as the blood thirsty bandit called mohammad.

none of them suffered schizophrenic fits when God or angels spoke to them one-on-one, Daniel had fantastic encounters with the Lord who appeared with the three hebrew boys in the burning fiery furnace.

The biblical prophets had miracles and tons of evidence to prove supernatural providence from God . . . what does mohammad have beyond his unreliable words?

muhsin:

Moreover, neither Muhammad nor Jesus came to change the basic doctrine of the belief in One God, brought by the earlier prophets, but rather to confirm and renew it.

More rubbish . . . Christ came for one purpose . . . to bring REDEMPTION through His precious and sinless blood. To equate Him with mohammad is serious blasphemy.

muhsin:

Who is that "One true God"?

Allah is the God.[size=15pt] The name Allah is the Arabic word for God.[/size] More precisely, it is the One Eternal Creator, Lord of the whole universe. It is the same Arabic name for God that is use in the Arabic Bibles. Thats in brief.

this is a huge lie that has been perpetuated for too long. Even ordinary wikipedia sets the record straight - allah = al + ilah - THE god!

It is interesting to note that the ARABIC WORD FOR GOD is ILAH! Very similar to the hebrew and aramaic versions called Elah!

When will you devils stop lying?

Mohammad's father was abdallah - slave of allah . . . which allah was that?

muhsin:

Why would not we worship Him?

"Say "O people of the Scripture--Christians and the Jews, come to a word that is equitable between us and you--that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with him and not take one another as lords, instead of Allah. . ."(3:64)

"Can there be another god besides Allah (God)? High is Allah above what they associate with Him."(27: 63)

Isaiah, 44:6 God says He is the first and the last and beside him there is no any god.

Still in Isaiah, 44:6 He asks either there is any God beside him. There is none.

Still using the "corrupt" bible to prove allah? when Isaiah was penning those great words allah (if he existed at all) was naught but a mere one of 360 idols in the kaaba shrine.

muhsin:

You see? The whole Laws/Teaching/Commandment is ONE=worship God/Allah alone. Jesus, on whom be peace, has never said I am God so worship me. And the word "trinity" is nowhere in the Bible. The whole concept was derived from the words of John, who never met Jesus.

the above is again another example of the stupidity of the average muslim.

1. Trinity is an english word - the bible was never written in english. How can you find "trinity" in a bible written mostly in greek and aramaic?

2. The concept of trinity is clearly established in the bible.

3. If indeed we shld disregard the words of John since "he never met Jesus" . . . how reliable then is the quran or the words of mohammad who lived thousands of yrs after EITHER Christ or the disciples he usurped lived and died?

muhsin:

The myth of trinity gradually crept into Christianity, influenced by pegan belief and Greek mythology, an was adopted by Council of Nicaean in 325 CE, according to scholars of both Christianity and Islam.

Thanks for your good comprehension.

Muhsin

Why is the trinity a particular problem for the muslim? Has he finished reading the doctrines in the quran?

@Nezan:Muhsin has said something which is very interesting to me. As a yoruba man what Muhsin said, as highlighted below, mean "Tori Olorun." Could you please say it in Arabic, for my own knowledge? I know that you are not an arab, but seem to have pretty much fought tooth and nail, clawing your way to discredit a Book that is written in the purest form of Arabic, not dia lectic to any of the tribes or clans, yet help as a pimary source of Spiritual unquenching fountain for the nutrient of the soul of at least between 20 to 25 percent of the world population today. Yet the percentage keeps on rising.
]quote]
#2 on: Today at 01:42:31 PM »
@Nezan,

For God's sake, can't you be a bit more fair? Both "I" and Abuzola's threads were locked yesterday. And I swear with the Almighty God nothing like insult, abuse, blasphemy, etc was said in these threads. But here, fairly enough, read $Osisi's threads. . .

Respect the OP and write your input rationally, intelligently and reasonably. Or else remain mute. Is there anything hard? Nope.

Thanks

[/quote]

Now to your entry as copied below:
[quote]
You people are funny. You create threads and when you sense some posts exposes the weaknesses inyour religion, you keep deleting them. Pity

I personally disagree with your observation. It is not the noise level that will change a lie to truth. A lie is still a lie. Truth is just one. It is clear when you see it, hear it and experience it. It is a lie that lend processing to interpretation and wantom effort to read sometime to it that is not obvious. It is a lie that will change every time. It is a lie that will always the goal post to fit prevailing temporary condition. It is a lie that is never permanently stationed.

This reminds of former VP Dick Cheney.He said there was MWD in Iraq. Then the war was waged based on this simple fact. Then american men and women lost their lives. Then he left the office and alas, No weapons afterall, and Hussaine was not in alliance with AlQaidah! Can you believe that guy? Yet in the past, he beat the drum of war loud and clear enough with this lie that all voices of reason were drowned out.

I want you to take notice of that. Lies can never pass for truth. In the long run, lies will fail and undoubtedly, truth will prevail!


But the For sake in English meaning Tori Olorun still needs your attention for its Arabic equivalence. The arabs are people who have a language beloved to them. They must believe that there is a Creator "Olorun in my mother's tongue; Yoruba". They the Jews and Christians among them must be able to have the same expression; For God's sake. Write it down for us in Arabic, please. Google it if you dont know any arab speaker in Abuja

@ Mushin

I agree 100% with Davidylan on this.

Please permit me to point out a number of things from your rather pleasant hypothesis.

muhsin:

The whole concept was derived from the words of John, who never met Jesus.

You claim this yet you quote from John

muhsin:

Why should they, brethren, after they were both sent with the same message by the same God?
Jesus, on whom be peace, says in John (8:40): "As it is, you are determined to kill me, a MAN who has told you the truth that I heard from GOD."

muhsin:

Very good. Although Jesus (p.b.u.h) has said that he and the Father are one in John (10:30), right?
But please help me reconcile the two for he also said the father is greater than him in John (14:28).

Explain these two verses to me, please. Thanks.

So as not to sound controversial, I will quote from Matthew 5:21

And going on from thence, he (Jesus) saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father mending their nets; and he called them.

Matthew 17:1 also has this to say

And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart.


Finally, John 21:24

This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true

@ahonohai,

Let me take you to a little trip. Say he met him, right? Where is the word "trinity" or its equivalent therein bible. Thanks

davidylan:

The biblical prophets are clearly defined . . . they have nothing to do with islam.

This is rubbish:

1. The quran says the bible is corrupt, so on what basis are you using that same bible to make an islamic point?

2. Exactly what "message" did the prophets bring? The biblical prophets ALL came SPECIFICALLY to the jews. It wasnt until Christ's death and resurrection that salvation became open to the gentiles. So whatever message the prophets brought was certainly NOT similar to that of mohammad who wasnt even a jew in the first place.

this is more unintelligent and dishonest rubbish. Moses gave 10 commandments to the jews, Samuel didnt come speaking "the Lord your God is one" neither did Noah (who wasnt even a prophet except in mohammad's fraudulent world), Ezekiel or Jeremiah . . . so did all these not come with a "message"?

To quote Noah from the quran is just laughably stupid . . . Noah died more than 5000 yrs before that quran was written . . . so from whom did that alleged quote come from?

what we can "see evidently" is that the "god" of mohammad could not have been the same as that of Noah, Samuel, Jeremiah or Isaiah. None of them were political leaders or warriors or husbands of 6yr olds with concubines. Infact many of them paid dearly for their faith with their lives . . . they were mocked, beaten, jailed and killed for daring to oppose the rulers of their day with the Word of the Lord.

Meek men like Moses, faithful servants like Micah, mighty men of faith like Elijah . . . could not have been from the same God as the blood thirsty bandit called mohammad.

none of them suffered schizophrenic fits when God or angels spoke to them one-on-one, Daniel had fantastic encounters with the Lord who appeared with the three hebrew boys in the burning fiery furnace.

The biblical prophets had miracles and tons of evidence to prove supernatural providence from God . . . what does mohammad have beyond his unreliable words?

More rubbish . . . Christ came for one purpose . . . to bring REDEMPTION through His precious and sinless blood. To equate Him with mohammad is serious blasphemy.

this is a huge lie that has been perpetuated for too long. Even ordinary wikipedia sets the record straight - allah = al + ilah - THE god!

It is interesting to note that the ARABIC WORD FOR GOD is ILAH! Very similar to the hebrew and aramaic versions called Elah!

When will you devils stop lying?

Mohammad's father was abdallah - slave of allah . . . which allah was that?

Still using the "corrupt" bible to prove allah? when Isaiah was penning those great words allah (if he existed at all) was naught but a mere one of 360 idols in the kaaba shrine.

the above is again another example of the stupidity of the average muslim.

1. Trinity is an english word - the bible was never written in english. How can you find "trinity" in a bible written mostly in greek and aramaic?

2. The concept of trinity is clearly established in the bible.

3. If indeed we shld disregard the words of John since "he never met Jesus" . . . how reliable then is the quran or the words of mohammad who lived thousands of yrs after EITHER Christ or the disciples he usurped lived and died?

Why is the trinity a particular problem for the muslim? Has he finished reading the doctrines in the quran?

You are not worth replying to at all. Your religion would be better off without ignorant persons like you. You can't not reason totally. Your specialty is blabbing, abusing, insulting and calling names. You cannot quote both the two books, as I do, and reasonable, rationally, intelligently back up your claims. But blabbing, calling names. . .what a shame.

More shame when I remember you are a PASTOR? What a pastor?

And more proofs are on the way, inshaAllah.

P:S

We believe in Jesus.

We believe he was born of a virgin.
We believe he spoke from the first day of his life.
We believe Jesus raised the dead, gave sight to the blind, even took some clay, shaped it into a bird and breathed life into it and the bird flew away.

We believe that there are only TWO people on earth that Satan did not touch them in the womb, that was jesus and the mother of Jesus

So if anyone has a right to deify Jesus, it is the Muslims
If anyone has a right to worship, it is the Muslims

Because we not only believe in what the Christians believe about him, we believe in him more

Mind you, we are not worshipers of Jesus,

We believe he is the messiah, and that he must return.

So there is nothing about Christians and Christianity that has anything over our understanding of Jesus.

Unlike the Jews who reject Jesus, Muslims respect and believe in him.

However, this thread is not about Jesus, it is about God.

And we believe in God, and thats what the difference is

We do not say that God has a partner, not a son, an uncle, a daughter or an aunt.

And that is the purpose of this thread, to once again remind christians that deifying Jesus is unacceptable to God.

May God, the Most Exalted, guide us all, ameen.

muhsin:

You are not worth replying to at all. Your religion would be better off without ignorant persons like you. You can't not reason totally. Your specialty is blabbing, abusing, insulting and calling names. You cannot quote both the two books, as I do, and reasonable, rationally, intelligently back up your claims. But blabbing, calling names. . .what a shame.

More shame when I remember you are a PASTOR? What a pastor?

And more proofs are on the way, inshaAllah.

1. I'm not and have never been a pastor, its not my calling. I dont lead a church . . . where you got that from is your business.

2. Notice the hypocrisy in these slaves of satan . . . they set up threads purportedly to "ask questions" . . . answer it in detail and they tell you you're not worth responding to or they disappear alltogether.

3. Read thru my entire response to your piffle earlier on, where are the "insults" you claim? You say i didnt "intelligently" answer your questions . . . now that is laughable because your own questions were not even intelligent at all. I mean making up stories, twisting the bible and speaking from both sides of the mouth is not equivalent to intelligence.

4. I'm not surprised this is your answer to my rebuttal . . . you were simply copying someone else's argument. You have no mind of your own to think.

muhsin:

P:S

We believe in Jesus.

No you dont. you have simply invented your own warped version of "Jesus" . . . a tool mohammad realised he needed in order to at least lend his fraud of a religion some legitimacy.

You cant claim to "believe in Jesus" and REJECT the overwhelming evidence of His death and resurrection on the cross.
You cant claim to "believe in Jesus" and YET claim that mohammad is the last prophet of "god".

muhsin:

We believe he was born of a virgin.

why wasnt mohammad born of a virgin? Do you know the significance of His being born of a virgin?

muhsin:

We believe he spoke from the first day of his life.

Based on what? Eyewitness accounts do not record such nonsense. Your mohammad didnt appear until 1000 yrs AFTER this event so where was his proof?

muhsin:

We believe Jesus raised the dead, gave sight to the blind, even took some clay, shaped it into a bird and breathed life into it and the bird flew away.

Events that neither mohammad nor your allah can claim. Now stop stealing the miracles of Christ to burnish the impotence of your own "god".

muhsin:

We believe that there are only TWO people on earth that Satan did not touch them in the womb, that was jesus and the mother of Jesus

So you know that satan had a firm hold on the life of mohammad?

muhsin:

So if anyone has a right to deify Jesus, it is the Muslims

What absolute nonsense. what historical fraud. what disgraceful and demonic dishonesty. Muslims have more of a right over Christ than Jews His own flesh and blood?

muhsin:

If anyone has a right to worship, it is the Muslims

why is mohammad not enough for you? Ye slaves of the devil have stolen Jerusalem and the temple mount, robbed the jews of their history and now want to steal, reinvent and repackage their Messiah? With the intention to wipe out His work of redemption on the cross of course . . . all that rubbish about deifying and worshipping is bogus.

muhsin:

Because we not only believe in what the Christians believe about him, we believe in him more

nonsense.

muhsin:

Mind you, we are not worshipers of Jesus,

So what are you?

muhsin:

We believe he is the messiah, and that he must return.

Messiah of WHAT, WHO and WHY? Can a muslim tell me why he believes Christ is the Messiah? where is the title "messiah" used in your quran you thieves?

muhsin:

So there is nothing about Christians and Christianity that has anything over our understanding of Jesus.

I wonder why islam cant stand on its own without trying to borrow from others.

muhsin:

Unlike the Jews who reject Jesus, Muslims respect and believe in him.

That is nonsense.

muhsin:

However, this thread is not about Jesus, it is about God.

Jesus is God.

muhsin:

And we believe in God, and thats what the difference is

you believe in the devil. the God of the bible calls His own CHILDREN!

muhsin:

We do not say that God has a partner, not a son, an uncle, a daughter or an aunt.

You do not say anything at all.

muhsin:

And that is the purpose of this thread, to once again remind christians that deifying Jesus is unacceptable to God.

Why do you think we need reminding? What business of yours is it? why is allah overly bothered about Jesus?

muhsin:

May God, the Most Exalted, guide us all, ameen.

see confusion.

@Davidylan: If I have to go by your #2 and #3 below, I will have to agree with Abuzola. And my reason is below.

2. Notice the hypocrisy in these slaves of satan . . . they set up threads purportedly to "ask questions" . . . answer it in detail and they tell you you're not worth responding to or they disappear alltogether.

3. Read thru my entire response to your piffle earlier on, where are the "insults" you claim? You say i didnt "intelligently" answer your questions . . . now that is laughable because your own questions were not even intelligent at all. I mean making up stories, twisting the bible and speaking from both sides of the mouth is not equivalent to intelligence.

Your saying that muslims are slaves of satan shows that you have made up stories, lying is what that is. You have accused Abuzola something that you have just practiced, here yourself. Tell me, David, do you curse your master to his face? Rather do you have a master you are a slave to and you curse him many times a day, seeking protection of somethng else against him and asking that it never receive mercy? Thats what the muslims on a daily basis, many times a day call Allah to do to Shaitan! Tell me how you seek protection against your greatest enemy satan?

Here is what the Muslims say: Audu bilalhi minal Shaitani rajim! (I seek protect of Allah against Shaitan the one who is acursed and never to receive mercy).

The ball is in your court. And by the way, if you do not perform that Sunset light effect on the look of water body, I will be mailing the pictures to you.

Olabs forget davidylan
how's Zainab?
How are you?
How's New york?
How's business?
now go back to davidylan

« #3 on: July 10, 2009, 06:53 PM »  
Quote from: muhsin on July 10, 2009, 01:08 PM
Are the prophets all sent by God?

The biblical prophets are clearly defined . . . they have nothing to do with islam.

The Bible did not exist when Adam, Enoch, Noah, Ibrahim, Lut, Ismail, Isiaq, Jaqub, Yusuf, etc were on earth. Unless you can proof with clarity, otherwise your statement is an empty assumption. Sometimes I hear you guys call Noah, Ibrahim, etc Jews, I will wager your yearly salary with you, if I can not from your Bible pundits and the Bible prove you wrong. You will have to know that no mention of the word Jew or Israel in their lifetimes; Adam, Enoch, Noah, Ibrahim, to name just a few.

Quote from: muhsin on July 10, 2009, 01:08 PM
Jesus, on whom be peace, says:
"Do you think that I have come to do away with the Law of Moses and the Teachings of the Prophets. I have not come to do away with them, but to make the teachings come true." (Mathew, 5:17)

The above verse tells us that the Message of these prophets is the same.

This is rubbish:

How is that rubbish? Is there a prophet who said that no one should worship One God and he that prophet is not the messenger and or prophet of that God?

1. The quran says the bible is corrupt, so on what basis are you using that same bible to make an islamic point?

Coruption does not mean that at least a verse or few more are still pointing to the Presence of God and the messengers and/or the prophets of that God! Thats what Abuzola is using. I see you go toOT of Moses to proof Jesus, even though you do not believe that the same OT is now worth than the single line "Loe your God, and your naighbor!" You think the Jews are happy with you?

2. Exactly what "message" did the prophets bring? [b[The biblical prophets ALL came SPECIFICALLY to the jews.[/b] It wasnt until Christ's death and resurrection that salvation became open to the gentiles. So whatever message the prophets brought was certainly NOT similar to that of mohammad who wasnt even a jew in the first place

In all your argument, you failed to provide the "message or messages" the so called Biblical prophets brought to the "Jews." Could you at least tell us what is that message or messages? And when did the Jews as a people came to existence? Was it before their great grandfather Jacob or what? Is it possible that grand pa in Ijebu Ode, be called Davidylan?If not thats what yu have just proposed when you say that Jacob is a Jew. Jew or Judaism or Jewish is borne out of the descendants of Judah, a son out of 12 of jacobs'.

@$Osisi: Thanks alot. Everything is okay. Am on a journey for the summer. Maybe through August. Whathas happened to Hotfunmi? I hope she is well.

Hi there!

I wish I had enough time at my disposal to fully buttress your words, David. But inshaAllah tomorrow when I get back, for now am too crisscrossed with works to do.

And to call it to your notice; I since that day said that I was going for a short break. Ask your co--noetic2, am sure he read where I wrote these words. By the way, your accusation that I ran away after asking you question had me earnestly ginning. Who are you or any other Christian brethren. . .I wonder. Whoever has facts, innumerable, will not run away. Note.

Regarding whose input is intelligent, constructed and the likes: I am sure every fair-minded reader could simply sum it up that you are very much unintelligent in your poor attempt to refute and debunk my words. You quote no single verse neither from the Holy Qur'an nor from your bible. Do you? And we are talking of God. . .what evidence source do we have more than these? Funny.

As I already made it clear, inshaAllah tomorrow. . . until then.

muhsin:

@ahonohai,

Let me take you to a little trip. Say he met him, right? Where is the word "trinity" or its equivalent therein bible. Thanks

@Muhsin,

I hope the following will put paid your questions on Trinity:

GOD IS A PLURALITY
The Name Elohim
It is generally agreed that Elohim is a plural noun having the masculine plural ending "im." The very word Elohim used of the true God in Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," is also used in Exodus 20:3, "You shall have no other gods (Elohim) before Me," and in Deuteronomy 13:2, "Let us go after other gods (Elohim), ." While the use of the plural Elohim does not prove a Trinity, it certainly opens the door to a doctrine of plurality in the Godhead since it is the word that is used for the one true God as well as for the many false gods.
Plural Verbs Used With Elohim
Virtually all Hebrew scholars do recognize that the word Elohim, as it stands by itself, is a plural noun. Nevertheless, they wish to deny that it allows for any plurality in the Godhead whatsoever. Their line of reasoning usually goes like this: When "Elohim" is used of the true God, it is followed by a singular verb; when it is used of false gods, it is followed by the plural verb. Rabbi Greenberg states it as follows:
"But, in fact, the verb used in the opening verse of Genesis is "bara," which means "he created" - singular. One need not be too profound a student of Hebrew to understand that the opening verse of Genesis clearly speaks of a singular God."

The point made, of course, is generally true because the Bible does teach that God is only one God and, therefore, the general pattern is to have the plural noun followed by the singular verb when it speaks of the one true God. However, there are places where the word is used of the true God and yet it is followed by a plural verb:

Genesis 20:13: And it came to pass, when God (Elohim) caused me to wander (Literally: THEY caused me to wander) from my father's house ,

Genesis 35:7: , because there God (Elohim) appeared to him , (Literally: THEY appeared to him.)

2 Samuel 7:23: , God (Elohim) went , (Literally: THEY went.)

Psalm 58 Surely He is God who judges , (Literally: THEY judge.)

The Name Eloah
If the plural form Elohim was the only form available for a reference to God, then conceivably the argument might be made that the writers of the Hebrew Scriptures had no other alternative but to use the word Elohim for both the one true God and the many false gods. However, the singular form for Elohim (Eloah) exists and is used in such passages as Deuteronomy 32:15-17 and Habakkuk 3:3. This singular form could easily have been used consistently. Yet it is only used 250 times, while the plural form is used 2,500 times. The far greater use of the plural form again turns the argument in favor of plurality in the Godhead rather than against it.
Plural Pronouns
Another case in point regarding Hebrew grammar is that often when God speaks of himself, he clearly uses the plural pronoun:
Genesis 1:26: Then God (Elohim) said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness , "

He could hardly have made reference to angels since man was created in the image of God and not of angels. The Midrash Rabbah on Genesis recognizes the strength of this passage and comments as follows:

Rabbi Samuel Bar Hanman in the name of Rabbi Jonathan said, that at the time when Moses wrote the Torah, writing a portion of it daily, when he came to the verse which says, "And Elohim said, let us make man in our image after our likeness," Moses said, "Master of the universe, why do you give here with an excuse to the sectarians (who believe in the Trinity of God)" God answered Moses, "You write and whoever wants to err, let him err." (Midrash Rabbah on Genesis 1:26 [New York NOP Press, N.D.])

It is obvious that the Midrash Rabbah is simply trying to get around the problem and fails to answer adequately why God refers to himself in the plural.

The use of the plural pronoun can also be seen In the following:

Genesis 3:22: Then the LORD God (Jehovah Elohim) said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us''

Genesis 11:7: "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language.''

Isaiah 6:8: Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?"

This last passage would appear contradictory with the singular "I" and the plural "us'' except as viewed as a plurality (us) in a unity (I).

Plural Descriptions of God
Another point that also comes out of Hebrew is the fact that often nouns and adjectives used in speaking of God are plural. Some examples are as follows:
Ecclesiastes 12:1: Remember now your Creator , (Literally: CREATORS.)

Psalm 149:2: Let Israel rejoice in their Maker. (Literally: MAKERS.)

Joshua 24:19: , holy God , (Literally: HOLY GODS.)

Isaiah 54:5: For your Maker is your husband. (Literally: MAKERS, HUSBANDS.)

Everything we have said so far rests firmly on the Hebrew language of the Scriptures. If we are to base our theology on the Scriptures alone, we have to say that on the one hand they affirm God's unity, while at the same time they tend towards the concept of a compound unity allowing for a plurality in the Godhead.

The Shema
Deuteronomy 6:4: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!
Deuteronomy 6:4, known as the SHEMA, has always been Israel's great confession. It is this verse more than any other that is used to affirm the fact that God is one and is often used to contradict the concept of plurality in the Godhead. But is it a valid use of this verse?
On the one hand it should be noted that the very words "our God" are in the plural in the Hebrew text and literally mean "our Gods." However, the main argument lies in the word "one," which is the Hebrew word, ECHAD. A glance through the Hebrew text where the word is used elsewhere can quickly show that the word echad does not mean an absolute "one" but a compound "one."

For instance, in Genesis 1:5 the combination of evening and morning comprise one (echad) day. In Genesis 2:24 a man and a woman come together in marriage and the two "shall become one (echad) flesh." In Ezra 2:64 we are told that the whole assembly was as one (echad), though, of course, it was composed of numerous people. Ezekiel 37:17 provides a rather striking example where two sticks are combined to become one (echad). Thus, use of the word echad in Scripture shows it to be a compound and not an absolute unity.

There is a Hebrew word that does mean an absolute unity and that is YACHID, which is found in many Scripture passages, (Genesis 22:2,12; Judges 11:34; Psalm 22:21: 25:16; Proverbs 4:3; Jeremiah 6:26; Amos 8:10; Zechariah 12:10) the emphasis being on the meaning of "only." If Moses intended to teach God's absolute oneness as over against a compound unity, this would have been a far more appropriate word. In fact, Maimonides noted the strength of "yachid' and chose to use that word in his "Thirteen Articles of Faith'' in place of echad. However, Deuteronomy 6:4 (the Shema) does not use "yachid" in reference to God.

@Mushin,

You can also consider this:

GOD IS THREE
How Many Persons are There?
If the Hebrew Scriptures truly do point to plurality, the question arises, how many personalities exist in the Godhead? We have already seen the names of God applied to at least two different personalities. Going through the Hebrew Scriptures we find that three, and only three, distinct personalities are ever considered divine.
1. First, there are the numerous times when there is a reference to the Lord Jehovah. This usage is so frequent that there is no need to devote space to it.

2. A second personality is referred to as the Angel of Jehovah. This individual is always considered distinct from all other angels and is unique. In almost every passage where he is found he is referred to as both the Angel of Jehovah and Jehovah himself. For instance in Genesis 16:7 he is referred to as the Angel of Jehovah, but then in 16:13 as Jehovah himself. In Genesis 22:11 he is the Angel of Jehovah, but God himself in 22:12. Other examples could be given. (2)

A very interesting passage is Exodus 23:20-23 where this angel has the power to pardon sin because God's own name Jehovah is in him, and, therefore, he is to be obeyed without question. This can hardly be said of any ordinary angel. But the very fact that God's own name is in this angel shows his divine status.

3. A third major personality that comes through is the Spirit of God, often referred to simply as the Ruach Ha-kodesh. There are a good number of references to the Spirit of God among which are Genesis 1:2; 6:3; Job 33:4; Psalm 51:11; 139:7; Isaiah 11:2; 63:10,14. The Holy Spirit cannot be a mere emanation because he has all the characteristics of personality (intellect, emotion and will) and is considered divine.

So then, from various sections of the Hebrew Scriptures there is a clear showing that three personalities are referred to as divine and as being God: the Lord Jehovah, the Angel of Jehovah and the Spirit of God.

The Three Personalities in the Same Passage
In the Hebrew Scriptures you will also find all three personalities of the Godhead referred to in single passages. Two examples are Isaiah 48:12-16 and 63:7-14.
Because of the significance of the first passage, it will be quoted:

"Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand up together. All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he shall do His pleasure on Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent Me."

It should be noted that the speaker refers to himself as the one who is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth. It is clear that he cannot be speaking of anyone other than God. But then in verse 16, the speaker refers to himself using the pronouns of "I" and "me" and then distinguishes himself from two other personalities. He distinguishes himself from the Lord Jehovah and then from the Spirit of God. Here is the Trinity as clearly defined as the Hebrew Scriptures make it.

In the second passage, there is a reflection back to the time of the Exodus where all three personalities were present and active. The Lord Jehovah is referred to in verse seven, the Angel of Jehovah in verse nine and the Spirit of God in verses 10, 11 and 14. While often throughout the Hebrew Scriptures God refers to himself as being the one solely responsible for Israel's redemption from Egypt, in this passage three personalities are given credit for it. Yet no contradiction is seen since all three comprise the unity of the one Godhead.

@Nezan: How come the Jews never believe that they have more than one personality in Yahweh, or Jehovah or Eloi or Eloihim? Moses worked on tyrannical Pharaoh and defeated him and his military without saying anything about Jesus the son, or ghost, etc. The Jews must be so dumbed up about it! How can a Levite Musa with all the personal conversations with Yahweh, Jehovah, Elohim, Eloi missed it so much with his brother Haroon beside him? Yet this One God Eloi, Elohim, Jehovah, Yahweh never for once said to him: Look here Moses, you called Me just only these names, you never remembered My other names: Ghost, or Son? You need to at least call Me that the next time around in the front of the people. They need to know that I will come in a flesh in the future, just another revelation that I am using to strenghten you.

How come Jesus himself was saying that there is a God that sent him? How come he was heard crying, begging, praying, etc to the same God to help him? How come Jesus said that he and his listeners have the same God and Lord and that God Lord is just One? And there is no sign from that language that Jesus is that One God Lord!

Finally, was it not so that Jesus was asking Eloi Elohim why he was forsaken? Its interesting that that verse was left intact in hebrew or rather, Aramaic.

@ Olabowale,

Please remember to reply to my post on the thread on Mohammed's poisoning.

Jesus was clearly conscious of his deity and deliberately made that awareness known to others. Jesus identified himself so closely with the Father as to imply that he (Jesus) is God (which the Jews at that time would have understood as Yahweh). He made this association in many ways, including these:2

To know Jesus is to know Yahweh: "If you knew me, you would know my Father also" (John 14:7).
To see Jesus is to see Yahweh: "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9).
To encounter Jesus is to encounter Yahweh: "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me" (John 14:11).
To trust in Jesus is to trust in Yahweh: "Trust in God, trust also in me" (John 14:1).
As strict monotheists, many Jewish contemporaries of Jesus were outraged at his claims to divine authority. Their extreme reaction demonstrates that they understood Jesus to be claiming deity for himself.

Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God (John 5:17-18).

Jesus' repeated insistence that he had an intimate and unique relationship to God the Father infuriated the crowds. Jesus didn't speak of God as "our Father," but as "my Father."

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him (John 8:58-59).

Jesus' use of "I am" (Greek, ego eimi) was also tantamount to saying "I am God," for he was applying to himself "one of the most sacred of divine expressions" from the Old Testament.3 Yahweh had specifically referenced himself as "I am" or "I am he" (Isa. 41:4; 43:10, 13, 25; 46:4; 48:12). Jesus may have also been echoing Exodus 3:14 where Yahweh refers to himself as the great "I AM." Again the reaction on the part of the Jews, the move to stone Jesus (the prescribed penalty for blasphemy, Lev. 24:16), contextually supports the assertion that he claimed deity for himself.

"I and the Father are one." Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God" (John 10:30-33).

Even this brief sampling of Jesus' words seems sufficient to support the thesis that Jesus of Nazareth did claim to be God. Jesus also invoked divine prerogatives and titles and performed many miraculous works, culminating in his own bodily resurrection from the dead.

@Nezan

How body bros?

Please remember to reply to my post on the thread on Mohammed's poisoning.

Kindly profer me the link sir

Jesus was clearly conscious of his deity and deliberately made that awareness known to others. Jesus identified himself so closely with the Father as to imply that he (Jesus) is God (which the Jews at that time would have understood as Yahweh). He made this association in many ways, including these:2

Hold it dude. You are one of those campaining for TRINITY and would be happy you are able to satisfy my curiosity whch would come in form of questions at the end of your write up here.

Lest I forget, could you show me where Jesus was conscious of his deity and made the awareness known?

To know Jesus is to know Yahweh: "If you knew me, you would know my Father also" (John 14:7).

Oga, who do you think you are deceiving here? Common man, dont lift out of context for me please. You intelligently left out part of the verses where JESUS said that GOD IS greater than him and if that should be the case, why are you still equating Jesus to God?

To see Jesus is to see Yahweh: "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9).

Dude, in the book of Isaiah, we read that God is not author of confusion and also Peter said that there is no secret interpretation of the bible. If you you agree to the statement above, then you should not just bring verse ut of context or giving it wrong interpretation because it would not do you any good.

Now to the verse you gave your own interpretation, Jesus did not infer that you have seen God when you see him. He was trying to tell you that he was His ambassador and anything he says or does is wat his creator asked him to and he even made than known when he said that he was sent and could not do anything by himself and that as he hear, he judges for he did not come to do his will but that of the oe that sent him.

Jesus was telling us that he represented God through the message he brought from him and anybody that accept him, accept God. If you believe in Jesus, it means you have believe in God.

Have you forgotten that God is a spirit and those worshipping him must worship in same way, so how come Jesus is God when God is not a man and there are verses in your boo on that as well that God does not change (if you permit me, we would go into that together)?

To encounter Jesus is to encounter Yahweh: "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me" (John 14:11).

Oga, RFLMAO. Are you also aware of another verse where Jesus said that the disciples are in him and that they might be one (I did not want to give you the verse because you already know it)?

To trust in Jesus is to trust in Yahweh: "Trust in God, trust also in me" (John 14:1).
As strict monotheists, many Jewish contemporaries of Jesus were outraged at his claims to divine authority. Their extreme reaction demonstrates that they understood Jesus to be claiming deity for himself.

Perfectly correct. He represented GOD on earth, he was sent by God and preached his message and anybody that accepted him, did that to the creator that sent hhim and that applies to all prophets. Trusting and believing in prophets is the same as beliving and trsuting in God that sent them.

If someone sends you a message to deliver and you did that perfectly and they believed you, is it not the same as believing and trusting the person that sent you because you did that on his behalf as well.

Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God (John 5:17-18).

Sir, if you are saying he is God just because he called God his father, what of the verse where he said that blessed are the peace makers for they shall be called sons of God?

Jesus' repeated insistence that he had an intimate and unique relationship to God the Father infuriated the crowds. Jesus didn't speak of God as "our Father," but as "my Father."

Was he the only one that called God 'father"? Why are you attaching different meaning to his own calling God, 'father'?

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him (John 8:58-59).

We would address this in due course but could you tell me why he didnt say efore Adam, Noah I was born?

When you serve rebuttal to my post, I would provide verses showing tha Jesus was never God and God is greater than him.

Have a fulfilled day.

@Nezan,

Thanks a lot for your long reply. I wish it had made meaning. . .I would have got that meaning.

Without saying much, I would really like to have your answer on a very simple question, i.e. God clearly made it known to us that he's not an author of confusion. And I add neither contradictions nor absurdities. If your assertion is to be believed then it means, evidently and obviously, that God creates palpable confusion in your bible.

To shame more light; my meaning there is; how can we reconcile your words--God is plural, God is three, etc with many other verses where God/Jesus says the God is One; I am alone and there is no any other beside me; worship me alone; the father is greater than I; to mention but a few.

Waiting. . .

Thanks.

babs787:

@Nezan

How body bros?

Kindly profer me the link sir

Hold it dude. You are one of those campaining for TRINITY and would be happy you are able to satisfy my curiosity whch would come in form of questions at the end of your write up here.

Lest I forget, could you show me where Jesus was conscious of his deity and made the awareness known?


Oga, who do you think you are deceiving here? Common man, dont lift out of context for me please. You intelligently left out part of the verses where JESUS said that GOD IS greater than him and if that should be the case, why are you still equating Jesus to God?

This is a muslim forum, dont tell me you didnt see the thread on mo's poisoning

You are the one interpreting out of context. Can you show me a verse in the koran where mo even mentioned that every one who has seen him has seen the Father? Jesus was comfortable making this statement because he was one with the Father. No prophet ever made this claim.

babs787:

Dude, in the book of Isaiah, we read that God is not author of confusion and also Peter said that there is no secret interpretation of the bible. If you you agree to the statement above, then you should not just bring verse ut of context or giving it wrong interpretation because it would not do you any good.

Now to the verse you gave your own interpretation, Jesus did not infer that you have seen God when you see him. He was trying to tell you that he was His ambassador and anything he says or does is wat his creator asked him to and he even made than known when he said that he was sent and could not do anything by himself and that as he hear, he judges for he did not come to do his will but that of the oe that sent him.

Jesus was telling us that he represented God through the message he brought from him and anybody that accept him, accept God. If you believe in Jesus, it means you have believe in God.

God is not the author of confusion, that is why I don't believe he was the one giving mo those messages. Or else how can he say he has three daughters only to come and abrogate the same (i.e. those satanic verses)

Dont twist that verse, please. Jesus specifically said anybody who has seen him has seen the Father. Again I repeat, who among the prophets ever made that assertion? Did mo ever said anybody who saw him saw God? NEVER, because Jesus is one with God.

babs787:

Oga, RFLMAO. Are you also aware of another verse where Jesus said that the disciples are in him and that they might be one (I did not want to give you the verse because you already know it)?


Perfectly correct. He represented GOD on earth, he was sent by God and preached his message and anybody that accepted him, did that to the creator that sent hhim and that applies to all prophets. Trusting and believing in prophets is the same as beliving and trsuting in God that sent them.

If someone sends you a message to deliver and you did that perfectly and they believed you, is it not the same as believing and trusting the person that sent you because you did that on his behalf as well.

Yes, he prayed for the disciples together with us believers to be one so that he will present us as his bride without sin before the Father on judgement day. That does not mean we are gods, are we?

Good you said he represented God while on earth. It is quite true because he was forgiving people's sins while he was here. Which of the older prophets claimed to forgive sins? Did mo claim that? Jesus did all this because 'God came to dwelt with us'.

babs787:

Sir, if you are saying he is God just because he called God his father, what of the verse where he said that blessed are the peace makers for they shall be called sons of God?

Was he the only one that called God 'father"? Why are you attaching different meaning to his own calling God, 'father'?

Did mo ever called God father? Jesus bought us with his blood, in essence, presenting us to the Father as sons. We claim to be God's children because Jesus bought us with his blood for 'there is no way to God, except through Jesus'.

[size=14pt]@Muhsin[/size]

Thanks a lot for your long reply. I wish it had made meaning. . .I would have got that meaning.

[size=14pt]How can it make any meaning to you when it is not a  muslim propaganda [/size]

Without saying much, I would really like to have your answer on a very simple question, i.e. God clearly made it known to us that he's not an author of confusion. And I add neither contradictions nor absurdities. If your assertion is to be believed then it means, evidently and obviously, that God creates palpable confusion in your bible.

[size=14pt]Surely God not a God of confusion, that is why he can never be the one telling mo he had three daughters only to come and abrogate it later [/size]

To shame more light; my meaning there is; how can we reconcile your words--God is plural, God is three, etc with many other verses where God/Jesus says the God is One; I am alone and there is no any other beside me; worship me alone; the father is greater than I; to mention but a few.

[size=14pt]The mystery of Trinity is a divine mystery. Three existing in complete unity. May be mo wanted to copy it but did not know about the mystery, that was why he alluded three daughters to allah only to come and abrogate it [/size]

davidylan:

The biblical prophets are clearly defined . . . they have nothing to do with islam.

Islam is a God's religion. And these prophets are ALL sent by Him. Are they not?

davidylan:


This is rubbish:

1. The quran says the bible is corrupt, so on what basis are you using that same bible to make an islamic point?

2. Exactly what "message" did the prophets bring? The biblical prophets ALL came SPECIFICALLY to the jews. It wasnt until Christ's death and resurrection that salvation became open to the gentiles. So whatever message the prophets brought was certainly NOT similar to that of mohammad who wasnt even a jew in the first place.

Why is it rubbish?

1-Yes, the bible is really interpolated. Its full with contradictions, confusions, absurdities and the likes. This very fact is even being said by many Christians scholars. And more so, in many Preface of your bibleS I came across some compilers saying the so-and-so versions wasn't well compiled.

2-The message is to worship one true God=Allah.
And let me educate you; Muhammad, on whom be peace, was not sent to a certain tribe but to ALL humans.
It's Jesus, on whom be peace, who was sent to Jews.

davidylan:



this is more unintelligent and dishonest rubbish. Moses gave 10 commandments to the jews, Samuel didnt come speaking "the Lord your God is one" neither did Noah (who wasnt even a prophet except in mohammad's fraudulent world), Ezekiel or Jeremiah . . . so did all these not come with a "message"?

To quote Noah from the quran is just laughably stupid . . . Noah died more than 5000 yrs before that quran was written . . . so from whom did that alleged quote come from?

This is very much laughable.

For example the of the blood that occured in the days of the prophet Noah, on whom be peace, was narrated in both Qur'an and the bible. The bible says its a worldwide flood (Genesis chapter 7) while the Qur'an narrates it as a local flood affecting the people of Noah (Qur'an 7:59-64). Today it is acknowledged that no record exist of a worldwide flood occurring at the time specified in the bible. How did the auther of the Qur'an avoid this mistake unless the author was God Himself?

Reference: Warner Keller's The Bible as History, 2nd Revised Edition, Bantam Book, 1980, p. 27.

davidylan:

what we can "see evidently" is that the "god" of mohammad could not have been the same as that of Noah, Samuel, Jeremiah or Isaiah. None of them were political leaders or warriors or husbands of 6yr olds with concubines. Infact many of them paid dearly for their faith with their lives . . . they were mocked, beaten, jailed and killed for daring to oppose the rulers of their day with the Word of the Lord.

Meek men like Moses, faithful servants like Micah, mighty men of faith like Elijah . . . could not have been from the same God as the blood thirsty bandit called mohammad.

none of them suffered schizophrenic fits when God or angels spoke to them one-on-one, Daniel had fantastic encounters with the Lord who appeared with the three hebrew boys in the burning fiery furnace.

The biblical prophets had miracles and tons of evidence to prove supernatural providence from God . . . what does mohammad have beyond his unreliable words?

I hope even above answer answered this rantings.

And note: believing they were from one God forbids us to call them with names as you are doing. May Allah guide us all.

davidylan:

More rubbish . . . Christ came for one purpose . . . to bring REDEMPTION through His precious and sinless blood. To equate Him with mohammad is serious blasphemy.

Any biblical verse to prove that?

I know he says that he's not sent to destroy the law of the prophets. And that Law/Commandment/Message I aptly explained it above. Therefore he came as a prophet to continue with God/Allah's message, which is to worship Him alone.

But you can tell me. . .

davidylan:

this is a huge lie that has been perpetuated for too long. Even ordinary wikipedia sets the record straight - allah = al + ilah - THE god!

It is interesting to note that the ARABIC WORD FOR GOD is ILAH! Very similar to the hebrew and aramaic versions called Elah!

When will you devils stop lying?

Mohammad's father was abdallah - slave of allah . . . which allah was that?

This calculation like stuff does not help any matter out here at all.

Its sooo apparent you maybe have never seen an Arabic bible, if not you won't so plainly lie like this--meaning backing up your baseless assertion. But the Arabic Word for God is Allah! I even see one today, wallahi.

davidylan:

Still using the "corrupt" bible to prove allah? when Isaiah was penning those great words allah (if he existed at all) was naught but a mere one of 360 idols in the kaaba shrine.

What do you mean to say?

The idols there were in the Kaabah were worship during pre-Islamic period. Allah and His messenger made it so clearly that worshiping these was haraam--forbidden and whoever does that would have his testimony repeated to bounce back to Islam. (Bukhari, see Fath al-Bari 11/536).

Thus Allah is not amongst these idols. Allah is the One who sent Jesus, Muhammad, Moses, other prophets, may Allah be pleased with them.

davidylan:

the above is again another example of the stupidity of the average muslim.

1. Trinity is an english word - the bible was never written in english. How can you find "trinity" in a bible written mostly in greek and aramaic?

2. The concept of trinity is clearly established in the bible.

3. If indeed we shld disregard the words of John since "he never met Jesus" . . . how reliable then is the quran or the words of mohammad who lived thousands of yrs after EITHER Christ or the disciples he usurped lived and died?

I agree that bible was not originally written in English. Don't you refute yourself somewhere?

1-Why do you believe the saying of Jesus that he is of Son of God literally mean a begotten son? Don't you the word "SON" does not at all mean a begotten son in that language they used then? But has a metaphorical, allegorical and parabolical meaning=anointed?

2-where? Clearly

3-Go and read history more, fella.

davidylan:

Why is the trinity a particular problem for the muslim? Has he finished reading the doctrines in the quran?

Trinity is simply one out of hundreds, dude. Your book. . .na wa woo!

May Allah guide us once again, ameen.

Muhsin

Oh. . .sorry. I am going. I wish I was staying to reply to you, Nezan. But nest time, inshaAllah.

Thanks for the response.

Nezan:

[size=14pt]@Muhsin[/size]

[size=14pt]How can it make any meaning to you when it is not a  muslim propaganda [/size]

[size=14pt]Surely God not a God of confusion, that is why he can never be the one telling mo he had three daughters only to come and abrogate it later [/size]


[size=14pt]The mystery of Trinity is a divine mystery. Three existing in complete unity. May be mo wanted to copy it but did not know about the mystery, that was why he alluded three daughters to allah only to come and abrogate it [/size]

@Nezan,

Hey man, calm down. The whole thing can be easily resolved. And now. I don't mean anything bad in my response.

1- It does not make meaning because I am not brainwashed.

2- Do you have any proof to back up your saying. And to, as well, buttress mine?

3- Why is it a divine mystery, pal? Why can't it be explained to a non-Christian like me? What if, for example, I am looking for a reason to convert? [size=5pt]Allah forbid.[/size]

@Nezan

Welcome once again dude. I like discussing with cool headed ones in which you happen to be one of them. I have forgotten giving you verses from your book to explain with regards to his deity but would do that we are rounding up our discussion.

This is a muslim forum, dont tell me you didnt see the thread on mo's poisoning.

I am very sorry sir. I have stumbled on it. Hope apology is accepted? . I have response from my brothers but if you are not satisfied, you let me know so I come in.

You are the one interpreting out of context. Can you show me a verse in the koran where mo even mentioned that every one who has seen him has seen the Father? Jesus was comfortable making this statement because he was one with the Father. No prophet ever made this claim.

Oga, if you want you and I to discuss Quran, kindly create a thread 'strictly for you and myself and I would oblige'. Besides, I dont fancy diversion of threads so as to grab, understand and work towards the same direction. We at most times agree to disagree.

Once again, welcome to my world if this is all you could say to all I pose to you and I would still rephrase it again and am using this medium to beg to always give me.

This is your quote

Jesus was clearly conscious of his deity and deliberately made that awareness known to others. Jesus identified himself so closely with the Father as to imply that he (Jesus) is God (which the Jews at that time would have understood as Yahweh). He made this association in many ways, including these:2

I asked you to give me where he was conscious of his deity and made same known but no response on that till now

Now back to your quote:

You are the one interpreting out of context. Can you show me a verse in the koran where mo even mentioned that every one who has seen him has seen the Father? Jesus was comfortable making this statement because he was one with the Father. No prophet ever made this claim.

I have never done that but you did. You were quick at giving me John 14 v 7 but ignored
the part where Jesus said God was greater than him.

Muhammed (saw) didnt say that and that does not prove his deity. He made the assertion because he was doing God's work and following His command and anybody that believes in him has seen the father in the sense that, that person has seen God' work. It is like when people say that they are seeing God in you meaning that they are seeing His miracle, work in you and that they are seeing it you are worshipping Him, that He is being there for you. So also the case of Jesus when he made that statement that he happened to be His ambassador and anybody that sees him has seen his creator because they work hand in hand (doing the work he sent him). Since you are hellbent on Jesus being God because he said anybody that sees him has seen the father, you forgot that he said that nobody can come to him except father draws him (any further explanation to that?).

We have verses where Jesus called himself son of man and not God.

Dont twist that verse, please. Jesus specifically said anybody who has seen him has seen the Father. Again I repeat, who among the prophets ever made that assertion? Did mo ever said anybody who saw him saw God? NEVER, because Jesus is one with God.

Oga,since you dont want to read for comprehension, are you aware of another verse where Jesus said nobody has seen the father nor heard his voice at anytime? (I think you and I need to dig deep into your book since it happened to be first holy book).

Yes, he prayed for the disciples together with us believers to be one so that he will present us as his bride without sin before the Father on judgement day. That does not mean we are gods, are we?

Where did he claim to come and die for your sins? Please furnish me the biblical verse(s) please. I dey learn everyday . Since you claimed that he is God, why did he say God is greater than him?
Why did he begged, cried to God to save and his sweat were like thick blood?
Why did he cry that 'Why has thou forsaken me"
Why did he say that he couldnt do anything on his own?
Why did the sin against son of man has forgiven but that of holy spirit has no forgiveness?
Why is Jesus not aware of the judgement day?
Why is Jesus not aware of season (the fig tree scenario).

Sorry dude, we have scores to settle with regards to TRINITY and Deification of Jesus.

Good you said he represented God while on earth. It is quite true because he was forgiving people's sins while he was here. Which of the older prophets claimed to forgive sins? Did mo claim that? Jesus did all this because 'God came to dwelt with us'.

Dont mis-construe me sir. I meant that he happened to be ambassador, representative and that happened to all prophets as well and not only him.

Could you provide verses where he forgave sins?
Why couldnt he wake the dead and told his disciples that 'they should allow the dead to bury their dead?

Did mo ever called God father?

No sir.

Jesus bought us with his blood, [/quote

]in essence, presenting us to the Father as sons. 

Where sir (I love discussing using biblical and Quranic verses in most cases)?

We claim to be God's children because Jesus bought us with his blood for 'there is no way to God, except through Jesus'.

[Where did he claim to have died for you?
Where did he say that you would not gain paradise by not accepting him as your Lord and Savior

If there is no way to God except through Jesus, why did he tell someone to keep the commandment in order to have life?
Why did he tell someone to be like little child in order to gain paradise?

I asked you to give me where he was conscious of his deity
Could you provide verses where he forgave sins?
Mark 2.5ff: When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven." 6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" 8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things? 9 Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins, "--A rather strong statement of divine authority, and the context SHOWS that it was a blasphemous assertion IF He was NOT God!. Notice that He does not answer their charges with a "Hold on now! I am not claiming to be God! I am claiming something less!"--not at all!

Why couldnt he wake the dead

[bJesus raised Lazarus from the dead (John 11:14)[/b]

Where did he claim to come and die for your sins

[b]From Adam to Jesus, God sent prophets to mankind, warning them of sin’s punishment and foretelling the coming Messiah. One prophet, Isaiah, described Him:

“Who has believed what they heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors” (Isaiah 53:1-12). He likened the coming Sacrifice to a lamb, slaughtered for the sins of others.

Hundreds of years later, Isaiah’s prophecy was fulfilled in the perfect Lord Jesus, born of the virgin Mary. When the prophet John the Baptist saw Him, he cried, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29). Crowds thronged Him for healing and teaching, but the religious leaders scorned Him. Mobs cried out, “Crucify Him!” Soldiers beat, mocked, and crucified Him. As Isaiah foretold, Jesus was crucified in between two criminals but was buried in a rich man’s tomb. But He didn’t remain in the grave. Because God accepted His Lamb’s sacrifice, He fulfilled another prophecy by raising Jesus from the dead (Psalm 16:10; Isaiah 26:19).[/b]

Why did he begged, cried to God to save and his sweat were like thick blood?
Why did he cry that 'Why has thou forsaken me"

[b]This statement by Jesus before his death on the cross shows us two things. Those words are a direct quotation from Psalms 22. Christ himself saw the numerous prophecies about him filling this portion of scripture which was written by David:

His incarnation would enable him to minister to other humans and to become the perfect sacrifice for their sins (22:22; Heb. 2:12, 17).
At his crucifixion, his garments would be divided and gambled for (22:18; Matt. 27:35).
On the cross he would:
echo David’s cry of anguish (22:1; Matt. 27:46)
be ridiculed (22:7-8; Matt. 27:42-43)
suffer the piercing of his hands and feet (22:16; Luke 24:39-40)
be publicly stared at (22:13, 17; Matt. 27:39, 47)
In general, 22:1-26 foreshadows Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection, while 22:27–31 foreshadows his millennial reign.
Psalms 22 was written roughly 600 years before Jesus’ birth. What’s interesting to note is that crucifixion hadn’t even been invented yet. It was the Phoenicians who came up with the mode of execution and the Romans who had borrowed it from them. During the time that Rome occupied Israel, they had used it as the form of capitol punishment for the Jews who had up until that time performed executions by stoning.

Something else about this moment of Jesus’ agonizing crucifixion. In 2 Corinthians 5:21, it says that “for our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” Also in Galations 3:13 it says “Christ redeemed us, by becoming a curse for us.” In other words the only perfect human being who ever walked the face of the earth, the only man who never knew sin, became the sin of the world on the cross. That is what is meant when it is said that he became the sacrifice for us or that he is the lamb that was slain. He was innocent yet murdered as a criminal.

It is written in Hab. 1:13 that God’s eyes are too pure to see evil or to look upon wrongdoing. Therefore, it is possible that when Jesus became sin for the world on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24), that even the Father could not look upon him. It is likely that this was the moment that Christ cried out. I don’t think it is within our minds as humans to understand what this must have felt like. The one man who had lived his entire life in constant service, obedience and therefore sight of the Father, in his greatest service to humanity, was left in utter darkness.

One thing we can say with certainty. We have no ability to even begin to appreciate the utterly horrific experience that Jesus went through on the cross as he took upon himself the sins of the world. There was a physical pain that we cannot even imagine and a spiritual one we can never fathom.[/b]

We have verses where Jesus called himself son of man and not God

[b]This sounds like some kind of contradiction at first glance, but in fact there is no contradiction. An examination of Scripture reveals that the phrase "Son of Man" carries broad significance.

First of all, even if the phrase “Son of Man” is a reference to Jesus' humanity, it is not a denial of His deity. By becoming a man, Jesus did not cease being God. The incarnation of Christ did not involve the subtraction of deity, but the addition of humanity. Jesus clearly claimed to be God on many occasions (Matthew 16:16,17; John 8:58; 10:30). But in addition to being divine, He was also human (see Philippians 2:6-. He had two natures (divine and human) conjoined in one person.

Further, Scripture indicates that Jesus was not denying His deity by referring to Himself as the Son of Man. In fact, it is highly revealing that the term “Son of Man” is used in Scripture in contexts of Christ's deity. For example, the Bible says that only God can forgive sins (Isaiah 43:25; Mark 2:7). But as the “Son of Man,” Jesus had the power to forgive sins (Mark 2:10). Likewise, Christ will return to earth as the “Son of Man” in clouds of glory to reign on earth (Matthew 26:63-64). In this passage, Jesus is citing Daniel 7:13 where the Messiah is described as the "Ancient of Days," a phrase used to indicate His deity (cf. Daniel 7:9).

Further, when Jesus was asked by the high priest whether He was the “Son of God” (Matthew 26:63), He responded affirmatively, declaring that He was the “Son of Man” who would come in power and great glory (verse 64). This indicated that Jesus Himself used the phrase “Son of Man” to indicate His deity as the Son of God.

Finally, the phrase “Son of Man” also emphasizes who Jesus is in relation to His incarnation and His work of salvation. In the Old Testament (Leviticus 25:25-26, 48-49; Ruth 2:20), the next of kin (one related by blood) always functioned as the "kinsman-redeemer" of a family member who needed redemption from jail. Jesus became related to us “by blood” (that is, He became a man) so He could function as our Kinsman-Redeemer and rescue us from sin. [/b]