when Allah Wills, it happened for Muhammad (AS) and not when Muhammad willed!

Then why did he not allow Allah's will to be done but went into an unholy alliance with the pagans, denouncing his prophet of Allah with son of Abdallah? We need to ask did Moses ever return a convert (especially one who was an Egyptian) back to the pagan Pharaoh in order to please the latter in obtaining what he wanted? Did Jesus ever compromise the truth of God by agreeing with the Pharisees in turning back all gentile seekers in order to be accepted by the Jewish ruling council? Would either Moses or Jesus go so far as to deny their apostleship in order to please the demands of pagans? Would these men refuse to glorify the true God in the manner commanded by the Creator and acquiesce to the request of addressing God in a manner pleasing to the unbelievers, much like Muhammad did?

I will come to Ayatollah later on. But I do not want to loose a better conversation with a man who may have had his reasons for what he did about his fatawa! I live in USA, and what they do in Iran has no great impact on me even as much as what they do in Nigeria that I do not live in.

[size=14pt]Why are you dodging to answer this question? funny [/size]

"Comforter" will deal with the advanced stuff; 100% and complete!

[size=14pt]Yes and he did, centuries before mohammed was even born. The Holy Spirit/Comforter is still dwelling within us believers. [/size]

I still have problem with my internet service. I hence barely browse for it costs me much to browse at cafes as I am just a student. Too bad.

@Nezan,

There is one popular saying: a mind sees what it chooses to see. If not because of that very reason you would have understand Islam. . .even better than many Muslims. You seemingly intensively resaerch on it, yet instead of refuting some points Babs or Olabs say, you unknown to you concretize their assertions.

That aside, let me tell ya sth.: don't, when arguing with Muslims especially any Muslim who has a good understanding of his religion, raise Ayatollah's words or action to back up your claim. I personally don't regard him as a Muslim but Shi'it. Yeah, Shi'it. The thread is not about that, though.

I wish you all the best.

Muhsin,

I still have problem with my internet service. I hence barely browse for it costs me much to browse at cafes as I am just a student. Too bad.

Sorry about that, I will remember you in my prayers and my Lord will provide for you

There is one popular saying: a mind sees what it chooses to see. If not because of that very reason you would have understand Islam. . .even better than many Muslims. You seemingly intensively resaerch on it, yet instead of refuting some points Babs or Olabs say, you unknown to you concretize their assertions.

I know Islam and all about the lies, but unlike Olabs and Babs, I decided to renounce them

That aside, let me tell ya sth.: don't, when arguing with Muslims especially any Muslim who has a good understanding of his religion, raise Ayatollah's words or action to back up your claim. I personally don't regard him as a Muslim but Shi'it. Yeah, Shi'it. The thread is not about that, though.

Are Shi'ite not muslims?  Too bad you are now denouncing him

No more responses?

@Nezan:

I know Islam and all about the lies, but unlike Olabs and Babs, I decided to renounce them

What do you know about Islam? I have been muslim over 50something years, and its only less than 13 years ago, to I really begin to understand it! Tell me about Islam and your reason for renouncing it!

Why you renounced it, better minds are taking it. Zainab my wife accepted it willingly, after she observed it and saw evidences that convinced her. She is a lawyer and she knows about evidence. She is Igbo and she was not from a muslim enviroment. My mother at her old age became muslim, finally realising that there is no way God will ask His son to take the place of an animal as sacrificing object, when He wanted to stop the barbaric slaughter of animals not for food but to appease Him for their sins. She realised that God would be showing Mercy by just not kill anything but simply forgives as He is sincerely asked! She finally realised that a God that has an offspring will not be a God. True God must be Unique in His ways from His best creations, man! She finally realised that Jesus could not be God, because there will be at least 2 Gods or 2 personalities to a single God, which means a Dr. Jerkyll, Mr. Hyde syndrome. That will not be God. And finally, you can nail God to the wall or cross or wooden planks!

Finally when my mother was going to leave Christianity, the church (Methodist parish, division, etc) she attended began to show hatred to her! Alhamdulillah she left. And by the way, Zainab by example, through her, Allah had made another male Lawyer from Calabar Muslim. He is now working to make his own wife, another Lawyer Muslim, with the continued friendship with my wife!



And the comment about shia: Allah's messenger gave guidelines who is Muslim. You will find the definition of Muslims in Quran. When a person still by name, but by action negates his Shahada, then he can hardly be considered a muslim! A person who says that he is a muslim, but proclaims that salah is not necessary what Islam is that? person who says an action is no more necessary to be a muslim is not a muslim, than you who is a declared kafr!

@Nezan: « #96 on: Yesterday at 12:09:46 PM »

when Allah Wills, it happened for Muhammad (AS) and not when Muhammad willed!

This also applied to Jesus.The remnant of truth we can still find in th Bible! Read his prayers again about not as I will but your WILL and what youcall the Lord's paryer made by both Jesus and his disciples; Your will be done on earth (by prophets and believers who followed their guidelines given by You) as it is done in heavens (by Angels).

Then why did he not allow Allah's will to be done but went into an unholy alliance with the pagans, denouncing his prophet of Allah with son of Abdallah?

I think you wanted to say His prophet, son of Abdallah, not with son Abdallah! If you think deeply, the truce of Huaibiya as we would call it here, is a strategic move by Allah so that humans can see the human success of His Messenger and his followers, and apply same process in the future. n the long run, the muslims were able to have an enemy (Makkans) who laid down their arms because of this treaty. Hence, the fights can be taken o those enemies who were unyielding in their intent to destroy this young community of believers.

Allah knows their future Muhammad (AS) did not know, except what was revealed to him. That was the same conditions to Jesus who clearly stated he knew no day and time of the hour. Same was with Moses because he did not know that he would eventually defeat Pharaoh! All of these noble soulswre men who knew just the past and the present as it comes and whatever was revealed to them of the future. At lenght, Muhammad and the companions came down and defeat the same Makkans who you thought had an advantage. There advantage was truly weak, a pure disadvantage because it was temporary as you it benefitted the Muslims, in the long run, after due patinece and steadfastness had been exercised!



[qoute]We need to ask did Moses ever return a convert (especially one who was an Egyptian) back to the pagan Pharaoh in order to please the latter in obtaining what he wanted?

[/quote] Was there a similar condition? But wait; Didnt Moses prayed that the plague be removed from the land, at the request of Pharaoh? Now thats a similar condition of compromise. And how many times did pharaoh refuse to honor his own commitment to Moses? Rea your own Bible and see that it supports the strategy of Muhamamad, and that was part of the truth still remaining in the Bible.



[quote]Did Jesus ever compromise the truth of God by agreeing with the Pharisees in turning back all gentile seekers in order to be accepted by the Jewish ruling council?

Dont be silly. Give me the name of one Gentile who followed Jesus and I will sow you a verse in the New Testament that you lied on Jesus, as usual! To be able to return a Gentile, one must have followed him, first before he makes the move not to the Jews (Phaisees) but the nation/people whom the Gentile belongs. Or is it possible for Ghana to demand my extradiction because I say I am no more a Nigerian, when I was never a Ghanaian from the beginning? Thats similar to your idea. Or your idea is actually worse.

Would either Moses or Jesus go so far as to deny their apostleship in order to please the demands of pagans?

This guy now sudenly realised that Jesus was an apostle and not a God, as he and his cohorts alleged and will still allege wen convenient for them to do so! Now let me ask you this; didnt Jesus say that he was not a kiung on earth, when pressed for answer?! You know, no one asked him if he was a king in heaven, since they already knew he wasnt. They calmly asked if he was the king of the Jews.

What was his answer, again? And I remember that he said give to Ceaser what was Ceaser, is similar to give Makka what was Makka of Muhammad's strategy! But then Jesus was the same person who overturned the table of the money exchanger in a violent most definitely angry at it. But Muhammad at long last conquered Makka and thats the end of that! While Muhammad also advocated for no interest charged, just like Jesus, the muslims by and large listened t this injuction, while the Christians ignored it!

Would these men refuse to glorify the true God in the manner commanded by the Creator and acquiesce to the request of addressing God in a manner pleasing to the unbelievers, much like Muhammad did?

What are you talking about? THe Pharisees called esus by his name and refused to acknowledge his prophetic office o this day! Pharaoh refused to accept Moses as a Messenger of God, until Quran says that Pharaoh acknowledged it only when he was drowning! Muhammad was son of Abdullah before he became Messenger!

The stamenet of compromising by him was a great strategy and its temporary allowance proved and secured the defeat of the pagans, and im the lomg run these pagans and their descendants became muslims. In the case of Moses, instead the Egyptians became for the most part Muslims, with a remnant becoming coptic christians. Jesus faired worst, because non descendant of pharisees ecome his followers and if any, very few. Definitey no pharisee became Jesus follower! What are you saying here?

In each case you shot yurself in the foot. Yet you have not attempted the Former Comforter and the Another Comforter personalities! Mayb a thread should be started on them?!

What do you know about Islam? I have been muslim over 50something years, and its only less than 13 years ago, to I really begin to understand it! Tell me about Islam and your reason for renouncing it!

If I begin to post my sensational posts on the lies in islam, I trust mukina and Jarus will be deleting all of them instanta. Let's just say even you are aware of the lies but are afraid that people will laugh at you if you leave. Ain't it?

Why you renounced it, better minds are taking it. Zainab my wife accepted it willingly, after she observed it and saw evidences that convinced her. She is a lawyer and she knows about evidence. She is Igbo and she was not from a muslim enviroment. My mother at her old age became muslim.

Why you coersced your mum to join you (I believe she was not well versed in Christianity), many people have discovered the lie and are leaving islam.

I hope you told Zainab to be expecting your three remaining wives?

And the comment about shia: Allah's messenger gave guidelines who is Muslim. You will find the definition of Muslims in Quran. When a person still by name, but by action negates his Shahada, then he can hardly be considered a muslim! A person who says that he is a muslim, but proclaims that salah is not necessary what Islam is that? person who says an action is no more necessary to be a muslim is not a muslim, than you who is a declared kafr!

Funny how you guyz delude yourselves. For every riot in Kano or Kaduna etc, muslims like you are also declared as kafr by the core northerners (I hope you still keep touch with home?).

Who are you to declare the almighty Ayatollah a kafr? Don't you know suicide bombers would swoop on you for saying something like that in the middle east as fast as me who is a kafr?

@Nezan: Ayatollah is no Almighty. There is no Almighty, but One Almighty Allah. And this Allah the Almighty does not die! All those who die, or dead, regardless of their temporary coming back to life, are nothing and never can be Almighty! eath is not an experience for Allah the Almighty, but death is forall others, including death himself! In time, those who woke up from death, if any will die. In time, death will die!

@nezan

For every riot in Kano or Kaduna etc, muslims like you are also declared as kafr by the core northerners .

This is to testify in realities, it is not always religious crisis rather politics using tugs, while cleverly brings it under religious.

olabowale:

@Nezan: Ayatollah is no Almighty. There is no Almighty, but One Almighty Allah. And this Allah the Almighty does not die! All those who die, or dead, regardless of their temporary coming back to life, are nothing and never can be Almighty! eath is not an experience for Allah the Almighty, but death is forall others, including death himself! In time, those who woke up from death, if any will die. In time, death will die!

Oh, so Ayatollah is not mighty in the muslim world? But I really wonder why his fatwa on Rushdie was so much recognised in the middle east that Salman had to run and seek for assylum in Europe. Beats my imagination.

littleb:

@nezanThis is to testify in realities, it is not always religious crisis rather politics using tugs, while cleverly brings it under religious.

Are you sure? because most of the riots starts with religious coloration, like the one in Bauchi where it was alleged it started with the mutilation of the koran.

And the recent one in Maiduguri where a muslim preacher was preaching against western education. Is this one also about politics?

@Nezan:

« #109 on: Yesterday at 12:02:15 PM »

Are you sure? because most of the riots starts with religious coloration, like the one in Bauchi where it was alleged it started with the mutilation of the koran.
« #110 on: Today at 11:57:21 AM »
And the recent one in Maiduguri where a muslim preacher was preaching against western education. Is this one also about politics?

If I mutilate the Hindu Holy Book, was my intention not a declaration of war, by my hateful action? Will it be surprising to anyone if the hindus rise up to show anger at my behavior, lack of sensitivity to their emotional attachment to their Holy book?

I think that you lack emotional sensitivity by not realising the sentiments that others may have for their own book, if you dont care for yours! This is the problems with you Christians. You think everyone is loosehanded like you with his/her religious values. We dont have Jeusu like in Islam, where a mere human being not able to do anything on his own, will wag a 'wholesale" forgiveness by his "reluctant death!" So we work hard at obedience to Allah, supplicating Him for His Forgivess and Mercy, individually and collectively.

By the way, Salman Rushdie is not from the Middle east! At bst he is Persian or Asian!

@Olabowale,

Your answer brings out the question I have always ask muslims: Can you fight for God? Is your Allah so powerless that you kill any body at the slightest provocation instead of waiting for Allah to act?

@Nezan: Fighting as per God's commandment is ordained on believers. Proof; Moses, David, Solomon, etc, each a Messenger and or Prophet (AS) fought for God's Name and Glory, so that His Name is Victorious! Pharaoh and his army were perished/utterly defeated so that God's Power and Might are acknowledged!

Dont be silly.

@Nezan,

Did you renounce Islam? I can't believe it.

And I don't want any help from your "Lord". I want help from both our and his Lord---Allah, the Most Exalted, who sent him to the earth as His messenger. May He help us all.

olabowale:

@Nezan: Fighting as per God's commandment is ordained on believers. Proof; Moses, David, Solomon, etc, each a Messenger and or Prophet (AS) fought for God's Name and Glory, so that His Name is Victorious! Pharaoh and his army were perished/utterly defeated so that God's Power and Might are acknowledged!

Dont be silly.

So you now quote the bible you say is corrupt? Why not quote the uncorrupted Torah?

muhsin:

@Nezan,

Did you renounce Islam? I can't believe it.

And I don't want any help from your "Lord". I want help from both our and his Lord---Allah, the Most Exalted, who sent him to the earth as His messenger. May He help us all.

Choose what you want to believe.

Well, you didn't reply till after I had prayed for you severally. Hope no offences committed?

@Nezan: You think I quoted the Bible? Far from it. These are quotes from Quranic Stories. Solomon had military organization that included even Doodoo birds, genie, etc! What are you talking about. Finally, your lies about several prayer is a gimmick, like the one that a foolish man will claim that any good that happens to another is from him! But when you look at him, you see abject poverty and distain all over him! The first question should be why didnt he help himself?

Is he allegic to anything good? THis is your case, when you ignorantly abandoned 1 God, and clamoring to 3 gods, yet when you are asked how many is Nezan, you quickly reply that you are one. Unfortunately, you want your Creator to be three, yet you want to remain just one!

olabowale:

@Nezan: You think I quoted the Bible? Far from it. These are quotes from Quranic Stories. Solomon had military organization that included even Doodoo birds, genie, etc! What are you talking about. Finally, your lies about several prayer is a gimmick, like the one that a foolish man will claim that any good that happens to another is from him! But when you look at him, you see abject poverty and distain all over him! The first question should be why didnt he help himself?

The name SOLOMON does not appear in the koran. What you have is a plagiarisation of Biblical accounts, retold with the flavour of arabian fairy tales. A goat ate parts of it?

olabowale:

@Nezan: Is he allegic to anything good? THis is your case, when you ignorantly abandoned 1 God, and clamoring to 3 gods, yet when you are asked how many is Nezan, you quickly reply that you are one. Unfortunately, you want your Creator to be three, yet you want to remain just one!

Tell those tales to confused fellas who do not know the time Jesus and mohammed existed and what each brought to humanity. Those who are not aware of historical records, may be you will win another soul in hell.

@Nezan:I hope you know that you are certain that you are inferior to your Creator. Yet you are one and want your Creator to be 3 or not having a single personality!

How will you know the truth when you have chosen to be blinded with fairy tales from arabia? the three daughters of allah?

@Nezan: And you, instead believed the Jewish story. You see how ridiculous you sound.

Nezan:

Choose what you want to believe.

Well, you didn't reply till after I had prayed for you severally. Hope no offences committed?

You had me grinning.

olabowale:

@Nezan: And you, instead believed the Jewish story. You see how ridiculous you sound.

Who sounds ridiculous here? The Jewish history you are accusing me of believing in, is it not the same history that mohammed plagiarised and gave the Jewish characters arab names? like yahya, musa, isa etc, etc, ? Where do you think you will get the authentic gist of a story? from the horses' mouth or from a third party who is alien to the system?

Nezan:

How will you know the truth when you have chosen to be blinded with fairy tales from arabia? the three daughters of allah?

Where is that mentioned in Islamic books?

@Muhsin,

Sura (Sura 53) verses 19-20 say, "Have ye seen Lat, and ‘Uzza, And another, the third (goddess), Manat?"


Allah was prominent in Pre-Islamic Arabia, as a god with three daughters: al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat. (Note that al- means "the".)


The four early biographers of Mohammed wrote that they verses originally were followed by:


"These are the exalted cranes (intermediaries) Whose intercession is to be hoped for."


Interpretation: Allah’s daughters were considered heavenly beings of intercessors. High altitude Numidian cranes were a metaphor for them. An alternate reading for "is to be hoped for" (turtaja) is "is accepted with approval" (turtada). (From Alfred Guillaume’s translation of Ibn Ishaq’s The Life of Mohammed p.166.


Later, this passage was taken out and the following was put in its place:


"What! For you the male sex, And for him, the female? Behold, such would be Indeed a division Most unfair." (verses 53:21-22 today)


Interpretation: Those who believed in Allah’s three daughters were unfair toward Allah, since they all preferred sons yet said that Allah had only daughters.


These are what have been termed "The Satanic Verses". In modern times Salmon Rushdie used only this term as the title in his unrelated and fictional "novel" and a fatwa was placed on him by Ayatollah of Iran.

Sometimes, I wish I have a million USD for each lie of the disbelievers. By now, I would be a Trillionaire, by now! Surah Najm (The Star) verses 19-23
Muhsin Khan: Have you then considered Al-Lat, and Al-'Uzza (two idols of the pagan Arabs).
Muhsin Khan: And Manat (another idol of the pagan Arabs), the other third?
Muhsin Khan: Is it for you the males and for Him the females?
Muhsin Khan: That indeed is a division most unfair!
Muhsin Khan: They are but names which you have named, you and your fathers, for which Allah has sent down no authority. They follow but a guess and that which they themselves desire, whereas there has surely come to them the Guidance from their Lord!

[b]If we compare the aove verses to the below, from the Yoruba in Abuja pundit of Quranic Arabic, we will wonder, how can we be able to reconcile the two? In Makka Islam, it is obvious that the Surah Najm was revealed after Isra Miraj, if one considers the verses prior to 19, explaining and pointing out and killing off the controversies of the night journey, by stating what was seen and indicating that Allah is Powerful and the journey was very easy for Him.

If a deceit was going to be put in place, should the three names of the pagan idols still be placed in there? The answer will be no. How crane, (a bird or a load moving machinery) could be placed in a desert people's mind is beyond me! And if at anytime the muslims even agreed with the pagans, why the Surah Kafiruun, a clearly Makkan revelation is put in place to respond to the Kufar is still a good question for those people who are claiming "Satanic Verses existed!" Finally, if it had happened, then again Muhammad was in good company: Moses was instigated by shaitan to have killed an innocent person. Jesus received the whispering of Satan, three times, one of them was that he should attempt suicide by jumping off the cliff, according to the Bible.

Except that it did not happen to Muhammad (AS), and I wonder what the fuss was allabout? We the muslims are quite satisfied with the life of our beloved leader (AS), and why talk about things you do not know, beats me. At least people like me can talk about Bible. My mother was a christian, until, I was maried to one. I lived with one in University and sme of my good associates are staunch Christians![/b] And tey complained and used Ayatullah of Iran as the ayah of Islam! Lack of knowledge is a terrible thing!


« #126 on: Today at 04:52:55 PM »
@Muhsin,
Sura (Sura 53) verses 19-20 say, "Have ye seen Lat, and ‘Uzza, And another, the third (goddess), Manat?"
Allah was prominent in Pre-Islamic Arabia, as a god with three daughters: al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat. (Note that al- means "the".)
The four early biographers of Mohammed wrote that they verses originally were followed by:
"These are the exalted cranes (intermediaries) Whose intercession is to be hoped for."