dolphinheart:


op, you have shown us where God commanded the making of certain images, you have even shown us where it is recorded. but you have not shown us where God commanded the making of the image of Mary or of Jesus, neither have you shown where such commands where recorded.

gods command: " do not make for yourself". my view of the command: do not make for yourself unless I command you to make it.!

Oga if God commanded dem 2 mak images like ark of d covenant, d copper snake etc, he did nt nd ll nt 4bid d use of images bt he ll nt b api if pipo worship dos images. It bcoms an insult 2 God.................... If God does nt allow d use of images dt means we hvin d picture of our love ones,@home is nw a sin

Peritus:

No sir. They were mere invitees just like others. It has nothing to do with their family. Remember, this wedding took place in Cana (Galilee). There was no obligation on them to provide wine or take care of entertainments. Mary knew who Christ was, right from conception. Note that Jesus asked her if she did not know that his time hasn't come. Meaning that she ought to have known.

you are right to a very large extent,but I personally feel that they are more than just invitees these are my reasons.
1. The influence Mary and Jesus had at the wedding. Mary told them to do whatever jesus commands, and Jesus told the servants at the wedding to fill large jars with water. These commands would not have been possible without influence, mere invited guests cannot do that.
2. second personal reason is that I believe Jesus went to the wedding with his family members, both mother and brothers, such kind of invitation can only occur if those getting married are family(extended) to jesus' family, or if they are friends to jesus family.

taking those two into account ,adding jesus age and the probability of being the head of his family, I think I'm right to say that Mary went to jesus, not for a miracle, but for something to be done about the wine situation.

yes, mary knew who Jesus is from birth, but she was not aware of the fact that Jesus could perform miracles. she did not tell jesus what to do, but she just informed jesus that there is no more wine, and as head of the family, he should do something about it.
Even when Jesus answered her, her next statement shows she did not know how jesus will handle the situation, unless you want to say she is aware of the process by which the miracle will be performed, and that she wanted jesus to turn water into wine.

Jusmudi:

Oga if God commanded dem 2 mak images like ark of d covenant, d copper snake etc, he did nt nd ll nt 4bid d use of images bt he ll nt b api if pipo worship dos images. It bcoms an insult 2 God.................... If God does nt allow d use of images dt means we hvin d picture of our love ones,@home is nw a sin

Bro, God did not forbid the use of images, king Solomon had images in his house na. God did not forbid the use of images for religious purposes, as there are images in the temple. what God forbids is the use or creation of images by oneself for any religious purpose. All images used for religious purpose must come from God.
God did not say "do not make images", he said, " do not make for yourselves".
God has been specific on these, the maker, the purpose, the structure and the location have been specified by God prior to the making of such images for religious purpose.
If someone else makes it, Who is not the same person as the person God said should make it, God will not accept it. If the person who God said should make it, makes it, but does not follow gods direct instruction on its details, God will not accept it. so you can see how strict these issue is.

For everyone to be certain that these is a divine intruction, and for everyone to see that such instructions where followed in detail, God had it recorded and preserved.

to now even protect the people from wrong use of these images, God had them placed in a location where less than 1% of the isrealites could see it.

It is wrong to say that since God approved that images could be made for religious purpose then, one can also do so now. even those who God gave command to make images did not make any other image apart from the one God commanded.

so it is important that those who make the image of Mary and Jesus for religious purpose must first tell
1. who gave them the command to do so
2. details about the command
3. who the command was given to(who was told to make the image)
4. and why it's put in a public place instead of somewhere private.

If this can't be provided, then the image is false, and you have no right to blame someone who makes an image of Jesus and put two horns on his head, or an image of Mary with very big nose.

dolphinheart:


you are right to a very large extent,but I personally feel that they are more than just invitees these are my reasons.
1. The influence Mary and Jesus had at the wedding. Mary told them to do whatever jesus commands, and Jesus told the servants at the wedding to fill large jars with water. These commands would not have been possible without influence, mere invited guests cannot do that.
2. second personal reason is that I believe Jesus went to the wedding with his family members, both mother and brothers, such kind of invitation can only occur if those getting married are family(extended) to jesus' family, or if they are friends to jesus family.

taking those two into account ,adding jesus age and the probability of being the head of his family, I think I'm right to say that Mary went to jesus, not for a miracle, but for something to be done about the wine situation.

yes, mary knew who Jesus is from birth, but she was not aware of the fact that Jesus could perform miracles. she did not tell jesus what to do, but she just informed jesus that there is no more wine, and as head of the family, he should do something about it.
Even when Jesus answered her, her next statement shows she did not know how jesus will handle the situation, unless you want to say she is aware of the process by which the miracle will be performed, and that she wanted jesus to turn water into wine.

Sir no mara ur relationship wit sm1, he or she must invite u. Bros sorry 2 say dt base on dis ur point, ur argument lacks base

[quote author=dolphinheart post=44064036]

Bro, God did not forbid the use of images, king Solomon had images in his house na. God did not forbid the use of images for religious purposes, as there are images in the temple. what God forbids is the use or creation of images by oneself for any religious purpose. All images used for religious purpose must come from God.
God did not say "do not make images", he said, " do not make for yourselves".
God has been specific on these, the maker, the purpose, the structure and the location have been specified by God prior to the making of such images for religious purpose.
If someone else makes it, Who is not the same person as the person God said should make it, God will not accept it. If the person who God said should make it, makes it, but does not follow gods direct instruction on its details, God will not accept it. so you can see how strict these issue is.

For everyone to be certain that these is a divine intruction, and for everyone to see that such instructions where followed in detail, God had it recorded and preserved.

to now even protect the people from wrong use of these images, God had them placed in a location where less than 1% of the isrealites could see it.

It is wrong to say that since God approved that images could be made for religious purpose then, one can also do so now. even those who God gave command to make images did not make any other image apart from the one God commanded.

so it is important that those who make the image of Mary and Jesus for religious purpose must first tell
1. who gave them the command to do so
2. details about the command
3. who the command was given to(who was told to make the image)
4. and why it's put in a public place instead of somewhere private.

If this can't be provided, then the image is false, and you have no right to blame someone who makes an image of Jesus and put two horns on his head, or an image of Mary with very big nose.[/quote
Bros i marry my hands 4 u. Bt on d oda hand, GOD gave us fOOD bt did he mention EbA? Since God has permitted d use of images, Hw do U still want God to repeat xam word by sayin ''' go nd hv d image of Mary nd JESUS''' ?? Bros its sounds 4ni u know.................... Bt i must commend ur effort in trying 2 learn.................... Kudos to u

[quote author=dolphinheart post=44064036]


Bros i marry my hands 4 u. Bt on d oda hand, GOD gave us fOOD bt did he mention EbA? Since God has permitted d use of images, Hw do U still want God to repeat xam word by sayin ''' go nd hv d image of Mary nd JESUS''' ?? Bros its sounds 4ni u know.................... Bt i must commend ur effort in trying 2 learn.................... Kudos to u

[quote author=dolphinheart post=4406


Bros i marry my hands 4 u. Bt on d oda hand, GOD gave us fOOD bt did he mention EbA? Since God has permitted d use of images, Hw do U still want God to repeat xam word by sayin ''' go nd hv d image of Mary nd JESUS''' ?? Bros its sounds 4ni u know.................... Bt i must commend ur effort in trying 2 learn.................... Kudos to u

Jusmudi:

Sir no mara ur relationship wit sm1, he or she must invite u. Bros sorry 2 say dt base on dis ur point, ur argument lacks base

My explanation did not mean they where not invited, its to show you they where not mere invitees.

Jusmudi:
[quote author=dolphinheart post=4406


Bros i marry my hands 4 u. Bt on d oda hand, GOD gave us fOOD bt did he mention EbA? Since God has permitted d use of images, Hw do U still want God to repeat xam word by sayin ''' go nd hv d image of Mary nd JESUS''' ?? Bros its sounds 4ni u know.................... Bt i must commend ur effort in trying 2 learn.................... Kudos to u

I believe you read my post, we are talking about using image for religious purpose ,you eba theory does not count.
For if it counts , the isrealites would have brought any animal to the temple to be sacrificed, instead of bringing the ones God specified. Anyone could have done the sacrifice , instead of a levite.

Those who made the images, having received directives from God, did not continue to make different other images. They did not even make a replica of the image they where directed by God to do for religious purpose, they did as God as directed them to do and stopped immediately after they completed their work.

Because God had commanded a copper serpent to be made does not mean Solomon could do it too.
This was done to protect us from all these false image of one long haired jesus and mary that is everywhere today. Anyone who makes any image for religious purpose must show proof that he is divinely ordained to do such image. It must be recorded with the details stated their.

If one who makes such image does not do so. He is same as a person who makes the image of any man, and calls it the image of jesus. God had not given the command for the image of jesus to be made, therefore " do not make for yourself any graven image" calling it jesus for religious purpose .

dolphinheart:


My explanation did not mean they where not invited, its to show you they where not mere invitees.

Nd u ll agree wit me dt anybody dt is invited ar nt mere invitees. For u 2 b invited makes U special

[quote author=dolphinheart post=44076124][/quote]
I bow my head in respect nd speak ntnin bt truth.,... My Bros do u remember when Jesus said in book of john , just as d copper snake is lifted up so ll d son of man b lifted up dt any1 wu look @him ll b saved.. So my Bros Jesus is sayin d use of symbols by using d cross 2 illustrate his death on d cross nd 2day we hv cross either @home or church or even ur pastor use to bless u in d church by sayin ''''' I bless in d name of father, son, nd d holy spirit '''''' which is also d cross. So U c dt d use of symbols or images ar nt only done by catholics bt everybody.. Which even our Lord Jesus illustrated

Jusmudi:

Nd u ll agree wit me dt anybody dt is invited ar nt mere invitees. For u 2 b invited makes U special

It was the person I replied that used the words " mere invitees" .
Inviting someone to a wedding does not make someone special. The person is already special, that's why he or she is invited.

Buy mary's invitation is different, she is probably family to the couple for her to have such influence.
Someone who you invited to your wedding, who is not part of the organizing committee cannot be giving your ushers command na. Unless that person has the authority due to his or her closeness to the couple . Likewise you can't go a wedding you are invited to and tell the ushers to go and fetch water. But you can do so if you are related or very close to those doing the wedding.


On the issue of the organizers asking mary to ask jesus. This I dnt believe, mary would probably have noticed herself and gone to meet jesus. If the organizers have asked mary, the head would have been aware and would not have made the statement he made when he tasted the wine later.

Jusmudi:

I bow my head in respect nd speak ntnin bt truth.,... My Bros do u remember when Jesus said in book of john , just as d copper snake is lifted up so ll d son of man b lifted up dt any1 wu look @him ll b saved.. So my Bros Jesus is sayin d use of symbols by using d cross 2 illustrate his death on d cross nd 2day we hv cross either @home or church or even ur pastor use to bless u in d church by sayin ''''' I bless in d name of father, son, nd d holy spirit '''''' which is also d cross. So U c dt d use of symbols or images ar nt only done by catholics bt everybody.. Which even our Lord Jesus illustrated

Can you direct me to where that is written in the book of john?

Ubenedictus:
And did d people who knelt tel u they were worshipping the statue? for sumtime now i also kneel in front of my bible to pray after bible study, am i also worshipping my bible?

O Uben..., Na wahoo. When you meet your God... Hmmmm.

Ubenedictus:
But there is scripture that clearly show old testament saint 'falling down' in obeisance b4 the image.

Wouldn't it be better if you post such a scripture here?

Syncan:



There is nothing wrong in that prayer, no matter what gratitude or praise a good child gives to his/her mother, a good father even though he made the provisions possible, will never be in antagonism with that, in fact some of us privileged to come from such a home, have seen the father appreciate the child for the honor done his wife. There is no Competition between God and Mary in the Life of a Catholic.

Sir, do you realize that Jesus' lineage didn't come through this Mary we are talking about here? It was through Joseph. Why is Joseph completely alleniated from the whole scene? To tell you the truth, Mary is not more important than Joseph in the whole Jesus' birth. Joseph as far as am concern is more important, because he is from the tribe of Judah, through which the promise was made.

BLINGZ88:
the same reason the wedding organisers asked her to interces on their behalf ( new testament)

And when she interceded, do you remember what she said to the people "WHAT EVERY HE TELLS YOU DO". Pls show where Jesus commanded you people to do all you do in Catholicism? If you are such addent follower of Mary, then you shd do all Jesus commanded. Worship God in spirit and in truth. No specific location, no particular time, no particular position, not using any totem.

omartins:
Op, many will say you're quoting old testament and they forget that tithe and first fruit is also in old testament.
Those running to altar before or after service kneeling, bowing and or rolling to pray where their pastor just left don't see anything idolatry in it.

God bless the work of your hands, this same people will hang or place the pictures of their pastors and will be shouting Catholics worship Mary or statues.

may God open their eyes

analice107:

O Uben..., Na wahoo. When you meet your God... Hmmmm.

my dear, if it is about worship i will be happy to meet my God cos i'll calmly tell him: "Jesus when u finished ur work on earth u gave u church d authority to preach, teach and celebrate ur worship, you promise d church d spirit of truth and gave her d spirit, gave it leaders promising them d power to bind and lose in heaven and earth, u promised to be with ur church for ever and promise never to allow d evil on prevail over her, i have worshiped in exactly the same way d church u instituted worships and teaches".

When i am in d church Jesus founded i am not shaken because error can't preveal against it, it is d pillar of truth. If i were in a church dat depend on d interpretation of their pastor and his opinion a an ecclesia community founded by man long after Jesus died and founded his church then i will be worried.

analice107:

Sir, do you realize that Jesus' lineage didn't come through this Mary we are talking about here? It was through Joseph. Why is Joseph completely alleniated from the whole scene? To tell you the truth, Mary is not more important than Joseph in the whole Jesus' birth. Joseph as far as am concern is more important, because he is from the tribe of Judah, through which the promise was made.

please define the word linage

dolphinheart:


I do not think it was because of that. Jesus was over 30 years of age, there is a probability that Joseph had died, therefore jesus was more or less the head of the family. Thus when the wine finished, Mary approached jesus to do something about it. A miracle was the last thing on her mind cus mary or anyone had not seen jesus perform any miracle before.

So you want to build a doctrine on probability? You will ignore clear commands and go with probability.

analice107:

Wouldn't it be better if you post such a scripture here?

i already gave passages joshua 7:6, abi u no get bible?

dolphinheart:


I do not think it was because of that. Jesus was over 30 years of age, there is a probability that Joseph had died, therefore jesus was more or less the head of the family. Thus when the wine finished, Mary approached jesus to do something about it. A miracle was the last thing on her mind cus mary or anyone had not seen jesus perform any miracle before.

who told u neither mary or anyone had seen Jesus perform a miracle? Dat isnt in my bible oh!

dolphinheart:


you say something , and then you explain otherwise.
"what was written in the past is for our instruction", do you follow such instruction when making images?
Let's look at the things written in the past.
1. do not make for yourself
2. commands where given to make certain images
3. All images made without that command met with disapproval, either the image was made to represent God or not(under any religious purpose)
4.the command given where specific and detailed
5. The commands where recorded.
6. The images where kept in private, not seen by the majority.
7. The person in charge of making the image is specified.

does making the images of Mary and Jesus follow these instructions from the past?
Let's examine.

1. They make for themselves these images
2. no command was given to make images of Mary and Jesus.
3. no specific or detailed command to make these images has ever been presented by those who made them.
4. There is no record presented on the making of these images.
5. These images are kept in the open.
6. anybody can make these images.

so in what way have you followed the instructions written down sir?

that it was done then does not give you a right to do it now, doing it then comes after precise detailed instruction from God is given to a specified person or group. The opposite is what we find in the mass production of the images of Mary and Jesus.


let's even agree with the false notion that God began the new testament by making his own image. The making of these image was recorded, the source recorded as coming from God, the details where specific, the maker and all those involved are known. but soon after, the opposite is what you practice.

just as no command was given to the isrealites to make copies of these images, and the faithful ones adhered to this, no command was given in the new testament and you should have adhered by it too.

hahahb, do not make for urself simply means "do not make for your own use", it has nothing to do with whether a thing was commanded or not, stop spilting hairs.

Since u claim every temple image was given in well detailed instruction, please show me the detail instruction 4 d great winged creature in 1kg 6:32, wat about d images of trees we find in 1 kgs 7:41,42

dolphinheart:


Can you direct me to where that is written in the book of john?

john 3:14

analice107:

And when she interceded, do you remember what she said to the people "WHAT EVERY HE TELLS YOU DO". Pls show where Jesus commanded you people to do all you do in Catholicism? If you are such addent follower of Mary, then you shd do all Jesus commanded. Worship God in spirit and in truth. No specific location, no particular time, no particular position, not using any totem.

i always listen to those words "do watever he tell u" and the catholic church lives by them, we hear and listen to him that is why we hold on to d fulnes of d word handed on by both letters and word of mouth just like paul said.

I certainly worship him in spirit and truth just like d early xtians did.

dolphinheart:


wish you would have quoted those verses here.
on the two occasions, they did not see the ark, talk less of veneration any image there.
They knew gods presence was with the ark, they where not bowing down to the ark or venerating it.(though it's covered).

hahaha

dolphinheart says "they did not venerate the ark"

the bible says "joshua...prostrated himself before the ark"

who is lying, you accuse catholics of bowing before image yet the bible says Joshua too prostated befor an image.

Have a good day trying to explain how u are contradicting scriptures.

Ubenedictus:
my dear, if it is about worship i will be happy to meet my God cos i'll calmly tell him: "Jesus when u finished ur work on earth u gave u church d authority to preach, teach and celebrate ur worship, you promise d church d spirit of truth and gave her d spirit, gave it leaders promising them d power to bind and lose in heaven and earth, u promised to be with ur church for ever and promise never to allow d evil on prevail over her, i have worshiped in exactly the same way d church u instituted worships and teaches".

When i am in d church Jesus founded i am not shaken because error can't preveal against it, it is d pillar of truth. If i were in a church dat depend on d interpretation of their pastor and his opinion a an ecclesia community founded by man long after Jesus died and founded his church then i will be worried.

My brother, you are the church. The hunch Christ talked about is not a building.

Ubenedictus:
i already gave passages joshua 7:6, abi u no get bible?

Pls quote the scripture out.

analice107:

So you want to build a doctrine on probability? You will ignore clear commands and go with probability.

The disscussion about the wedding is not a doctrine, we are just sharing personal opinions

Ubenedictus:
who told u neither mary or anyone had seen Jesus perform a miracle? Dat isnt in my bible oh!

Bro, I did not say "neither mary Or anyone had seen jesus perform a miracle" , let me rephrase: neither mary or anyone had seen jesus perform any miracle before turning water into wine. Hope you get me now?

Ubenedictus:
hahahb, do not make for urself simply means "do not make for your own use", it has nothing to do with whether a thing was commanded or not, stop spilting hairs.

No Bro, "do not make for yourself" means "do not make for yourself" . its like saying " let me determine, how when and what images you should make, and who should make it, dnt make this decision by yourself". All the images made for religious purpose then followed this discription. No image was made without command!, so in essence " do not make for yourself any image without my command!
As explained earlier,
1. no image was made without jehovahs directive.
2. No image was made by anyone but the person jehovah directed to make it.
3. No extra image was made for religous purpose anywhere else.
4. The details where given
5. The details where recorded.
6. The images where not kept in the open.

Images used for religous purposes today do not follow the examples and instructions layed down before now.

Since u claim every temple image was given in well detailed instruction, please show me the detail instruction 4 d great winged creature in 1kg 6:32,

1 ki 6:32 The two doors also were of olive tree; and he carved upon them carvings of cherubims and
palm trees and open flowers,
and overlaid them with gold, and spread gold upon the cherubims, and upon the palm trees.
Ube, this is detailed enough!

As to the great winged creature, you would not have known that the creatures wings are great, or the materials used to make them if details where not given. Read 1 kings chapter 6.

wat about d images of trees we find in 1 kgs 7:41,42

Pls quote the verses for us to see!