dolphinheart:


Then give the thread your answer na, why quote me.

Thought you participated in it. In any case ko si wahalla or nsogbu adiro if you prefer ( cant do it in Hausa ).

BLINGZ88:
And I will also like to add that saying that catholic worship statue is like saying that dey worship Mary which is in no way true. But more on that later

I hope you know that her role is not just intercessory as some argue. How do you see this prayer to our mother of perpetual help?
"O Mother of Perpetual Help, grant that I may ever invoke thy most powerful name, which is the safeguard of the living and the salvation of the dying. O Purest Mary, O Sweetest Mary, let thy name henceforth be ever on my lips. Delay not, O Blessed Lady, to help me whenever I call on thee, for, in all my needs, in all my temptations I shall never cease to call on thee, ever repeating thy sacred name, Mary, Mary."

Peritus:

I hope you know that her role is not just intercessory as some argue. How do you see this prayer to our mother of perpetual help?
"O Mother of Perpetual Help, grant that I may ever invoke thy most powerful name, which is the safeguard of the living and the salvation of the dying. O Purest Mary, O Sweetest Mary, let thy name henceforth be ever on my lips. Delay not, O Blessed Lady, to help me whenever I call on thee, for, in all my needs, in all my temptations I shall never cease to call on thee, ever repeating thy sacred name, Mary, Mary."

Never heard that one but lets not fall into the trap of missing the message by interpreting every word in its most literal manner. All Catholics are taught from the beginning that Mary may be venerated and addressed in an intercessory role but certainly NOT WORSHIPPED. Naturally others interpret differently (if they did not then they also would be Catholic) but they are free to be wrong. Catholic doctrine is very clear and the misinterpretation of it by non Catholics (often for some very dubious motives) does not change it in any way.

dolphinheart:


op, you have shown us where God commanded the making of certain images, you have even shown us where it is recorded. but you have not shown us where God commanded the making of the image of Mary or of Jesus, neither have you shown where such commands where recorded.

gods command: " do not make for yourself". my view of the command: do not make for yourself unless I command you to make it.!

Thank you sir. And the ones he commanded, He never said, Bow to them in obeisance.

KoloOyinbo:


Never heard that one but lets not fall into the trap of missing the message by interpreting every word in its most literal manner. All Catholics are taught from the beginning that Mary may be venerated and addressed in an intercessory role but certainly NOT WORSHIPPED. Naturally others interpret differently (if they did not then they also would be Catholic) but they are free to be wrong. Catholic doctrine is very clear and the misinterpretation of it by non Catholics (often for some very dubious motives) does not change it in any way.

I think you shd address what @Peritus posted to you. Don't Dodge it. Pls answer it.

analice107:

I think you shd address what @Peritus posted to you. Don't Dodge it. Pls answer it.

I was brought up a Catholic and have never heard that prayer before or seen it in any Catholic literature so dont know anything about it. It is made very clear to all Catholics from the start that Mary is intercessionary only. We only worship God!

Are you seriously telling me that non Catholics know better than us what we worship?? That is quite ludicrous.

Catholics can only tell you how they interpret their OWN doctrine but naturally non Catholics interpret it differently - their problem - their mistake.

analice107:

Thank you sir. And the ones he commanded, He never said, Bow to them in obeisance.

apart from the snake statue which they saw for a while cus of the reason it was made(which was also recorded), less than 1% of the isrealites saw those statues , talk less of having an opportunity of bowing to them for any reason.
but this statues of Mary and Jesus are kept in open places, and in front of doorways.

Countless times i have seen such threads and countless times it has been debated on NL,we the catholics have said we dont worship images but being humans or maybe out of mischief we keep going in circles and it keeps popping up.Stick to your beliefs and live others to theirs...Stop leading people to sin.
The devil thought he knew better,please tell me where he is now.

KoloOyinbo:


I was brought up a Catholic and have never heard that prayer before or seen it in any Catholic literature so dont know anything about it. It is made very clear to all Catholics from the start that Mary is intercessionary only. We only worship God!

Are you seriously telling me that non Catholics know better than us what we worship?? That is quite ludicrous.

Catholics can only tell you how they interpret their OWN doctrine but naturally non Catholics interpret it differently - their problem - their mistake.

Do I have to start teaching you the several devotions to Mary? Okay, you must have heard of any of these: Morning Consecration to Mary, Prayer to Our Lady of Czestochowa, Prayer to Our Lady of Guadalupe, Prayer to Our Lady of Lourdes, Prayer to Our Lady of Mount Carmel, Salve Regina, The Memorare, Act of Reparation to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, Prayer to Our Lady of Sorrows, Hail, Holy Queen, Exaltation of the Immaculate Heart of Mary etc. You may go through them.
There are many, like hundred with several novenas, but some are no longer significant or known. I don't want to go far to avoid passing judgment, but I ask I myself; how many of such do we offer to Christ or to Holy Spirit (our helper/comforter)?.

NB: Church doesn't go to heaven neither does it save, humans do and Christ saves. God has written his laws in the hearts of men and He constantly directs us thru the help of the Holy Spirit on how to effectively worship Him in truth and in spirit. Nobody is asking that one should leave a particular church or stay, but that one should ask the spirit to guide him on how best to worship God 'personally'. He will take his time to school you on God's ways, planting in you any inexplicable passion, humility and love. (If we can remove our heart from "church says" to "God says"... no church is the source of truth and life, we already know the source).
I hate that I'm posting these because I promised myself not to do so again.
On that day, we won't be asked on how religious we were, how steadfast we were within the confines/fore-walls of our churches, but how we served Him in truth and in spirit as He directed. TRUE CHURCH OF GOD IS NOT IN THE NAME/BUILDING BUT MODE OF WORSHIP, which was what Christ completely changed in the old law, from where Christianity emerged. Christ has clearly shown us what He wants from us, and what he doesn't want from us. He didn't leave us in the dark. Everything is in that book, THE HOLY BIBLE. When I started going through the Bible, it was like a tour in the path of truth. Nobody guided me, only the Holy Spirit did. God help us all. May His grace be on you, shalom.
cc. analice107

dolphinheart:


apart from the snake statue which they saw for a while cus of the reason it was made(which was also recorded), less than 1% of the isrealites saw those statues , talk less of having an opportunity of bowing to them for any reason.
but this statues of Mary and Jesus are kept in open places, and in front of doorways.

I grew up a Catholic dear. I was where they are now, saying the same thing they are saying now. In my Church, I mean the one I used to attend, the Image of Mary is at the entrance of the church. As you go in, so many folk are kneeling and praying, if you just walk into the church without stopping there first, is like you missed church that day.

Peritus:

Do I have to start teaching you the several devotions to Mary? Okay, you must have heard of any of these: Morning Consecration to Mary, Prayer to Our Lady of Czestochowa, Prayer to Our Lady of Guadalupe, Prayer to Our Lady of Lourdes, Prayer to Our Lady of Mount Carmel, Salve Regina, The Memorare, Act of Reparation to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, Prayer to Our Lady of Sorrows, Hail, Holy Queen, Exaltation of the Immaculate Heart of Mary etc. You may go through them.
There are many, like hundred with several novenas, but some are no longer significant or known. I don't want to go far to avoid passing judgment, but I ask I myself; how many of such do we offer to Christ or to Holy Spirit (our helper/comforter)?.

NB: Church doesn't go to heaven neither does it save, humans do and Christ saves. God has written his laws in the hearts of men and He constantly directs us thru the help of the Holy Spirit on how to effectively worship Him in truth and in spirit. Nobody is asking that one should leave a particular church or stay, but that one should ask the spirit to guide him on how best to worship God 'personally'. He will take his time to school you on God's ways, planting in you any inexplicable passion, humility and love. (If we can remove our heart from "church says" to "God says"... no church is the source of truth and life, we already know the source).
I hate that I'm posting these because I promised myself not to do so again.
On that day, we won't be asked on how religious we were, how steadfast we were within the confines/fore-walls of our churches, but how we served Him in truth and in spirit as He directed. TRUE CHURCH OF GOD IS NOT IN THE NAME/BUILDING BUT MODE OF WORSHIP, which was what Christ completely changed in the old law, from where Christianity emerged. Christ has clearly shown us what He wants from us, and what he doesn't want from us. He didn't leave us in the dark. Everything is in that book, THE HOLY BIBLE. When I started going through the Bible, it was like a tour in the path of truth. Nobody guided me, only the Holy Spirit did. God help us all. May His grace be on you, shalom.
cc. analice107

Dear Saint, pls don't stop posting. God raises people up as teachers and if you care to admit, you are one. So many have fallen away and have become atheists because so many questions were raised but so limited answers were given. To tell you the truth, I was at the verdge of saying there "is no God, it's also the Bible through the Holy Spirit who taught me what I know of Christ today. My case was different because, apart from branding every pentecostal pastor as fake, I was involved in auto accident and was immobile for ten years. Within this period, a lot of things played out spiritually in me. I had all the time in my hands, and since I love to read, I started reading. I stumbled on books, mostly The New Age books were so fascinating to me. This was the point I almost slipped off. But JESUS, was intriguing to me. Every religion and especially New Age can't stop talking against him. Then I decided to find out things for myself. That's when I bought my first Bible. Reading the gospels, Wow, that's how I got to where I am today. But some don't have the Chance and patience that we have to read for themselves, let's do the bit that we can to help.
May the Lord, whose name is Yahweh, reward and honour you greatly.

Peritus:

Do I have to start teaching you the several devotions to Mary? Okay, you must have heard of any of these: Morning Consecration to Mary, Prayer to Our Lady of Czestochowa, Prayer to Our Lady of Guadalupe, Prayer to Our Lady of Lourdes, Prayer to Our Lady of Mount Carmel, Salve Regina, The Memorare, Act of Reparation to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, Prayer to Our Lady of Sorrows, Hail, Holy Queen, Exaltation of the Immaculate Heart of Mary etc. You may go through them.
There are many, like hundred with several novenas, but some are no longer significant or known. I don't want to go far to avoid passing judgment, but I ask I myself; how many of such do we offer to Christ or to Holy Spirit (our helper/comforter)?.

NB: Church doesn't go to heaven neither does it save, humans do and Christ saves. God has written his laws in the hearts of men and He constantly directs us thru the help of the Holy Spirit on how to effectively worship Him in truth and in spirit. Nobody is asking that one should leave a particular church or stay, but that one should ask the spirit to guide him on how best to worship God 'personally'. He will take his time to school you on God's ways, planting in you any inexplicable passion, humility and love. (If we can remove our heart from "church says" to "God says"... no church is the source of truth and life, we already know the source).
I hate that I'm posting these because I promised myself not to do so again.
On that day, we won't be asked on how religious we were, how steadfast we were within the confines/fore-walls of our churches, but how we served Him in truth and in spirit as He directed. TRUE CHURCH OF GOD IS NOT IN THE NAME/BUILDING BUT MODE OF WORSHIP, which was what Christ completely changed in the old law, from where Christianity emerged. Christ has clearly shown us what He wants from us, and what he doesn't want from us. He didn't leave us in the dark. Everything is in that book, THE HOLY BIBLE. When I started going through the Bible, it was like a tour in the path of truth. Nobody guided me, only the Holy Spirit did. God help us all. May His grace be on you, shalom.
cc. analice107

Yes a very Protestant point of view. One put forward at the time of the Reformation ans still accepted by the Protestants! However it was rejected by te Catholics and guess what we still reject it. I suspect we know who we actually worship better than you 'think' who we worship.

And just in case you were unaware Catholics find this false accusation very offensive. Each individual knows who they worship and Catholics know thay only worship God. Now to state otherwise in the face of such a clear statement calls your motives into question.

cckris:

Catholic Bible says don't MAKE it at all.

yet every body have images of their loved ones all around them.

dolphinheart:


op, you have shown us where God commanded the making of certain images, you have even shown us where it is recorded. but you have not shown us where God commanded the making of the image of Mary or of Jesus, neither have you shown where such commands where recorded.

gods command: " do not make for yourself". my view of the command: do not make for yourself unless I command you to make it.!

The bible also 'what was written in the past is for ur instruction'. when one understands d biblical principles behind making and not making images he will know not need a new revelation, God began d new testament by making his own image since then d xtian church hasnt stopped making images.

analice107:

I grew up a Catholic dear. I was where they are now, saying the same thing they are saying now. In my Church, I mean the one I used to attend, the Image of Mary is at the entrance of the church. As you go in, so many folk are kneeling and praying, if you just walk into the church without stopping there first, is like you missed church that day.

And did d people who knelt tel u they were worshipping the statue? for sumtime now i also kneel in front of my bible to pray after bible study, am i also worshipping my bible?

dolphinheart:


apart from the snake statue which they saw for a while cus of the reason it was made(which was also recorded), less than 1% of the isrealites saw those statues , talk less of having an opportunity of bowing to them for any reason.
but this statues of Mary and Jesus are kept in open places, and in front of doorways.

THE issue is not whether or not 0.5% saw the image, the issue is that they were made with divine approval and venerated with the same.

analice107:

Thank you sir. And the ones he commanded, He never said, Bow to them in obeisance.

But there is scripture that clearly show old testament saint 'falling down' in obeisance b4 the image.

Peritus:

I hope you know that her role is not just intercessory as some argue. How do you see this prayer to our mother of perpetual help?
"O Mother of Perpetual Help, grant that I may ever invoke thy most powerful name, which is the safeguard of the living and the salvation of the dying. O Purest Mary, O Sweetest Mary, let thy name henceforth be ever on my lips. Delay not, O Blessed Lady, to help me whenever I call on thee, for, in all my needs, in all my temptations I shall never cease to call on thee, ever repeating thy sacred name, Mary, Mary."

There is nothing wrong in that prayer, no matter what gratitude or praise a good child gives to his/her mother, a good father even though he made the provisions possible, will never be in antagonism with that, in fact some of us privileged to come from such a home, have seen the father appreciate the child for the honor done his wife. There is no Competition between God and Mary in the Life of a Catholic.

Ubenedictus:
The bible also 'what was written in the past is for ur instruction'. when one understands d biblical principles behind making and not making images he will know not need a new revelation, God began d new testament by making his own image since then d xtian church hasnt stopped making images.

you say something , and then you explain otherwise.
"what was written in the past is for our instruction", do you follow such instruction when making images?
Let's look at the things written in the past.
1. do not make for yourself
2. commands where given to make certain images
3. All images made without that command met with disapproval, either the image was made to represent God or not(under any religious purpose)
4.the command given where specific and detailed
5. The commands where recorded.
6. The images where kept in private, not seen by the majority.
7. The person in charge of making the image is specified.

does making the images of Mary and Jesus follow these instructions from the past?
Let's examine.

1. They make for themselves these images
2. no command was given to make images of Mary and Jesus.
3. no specific or detailed command to make these images has ever been presented by those who made them.
4. There is no record presented on the making of these images.
5. These images are kept in the open.
6. anybody can make these images.

so in what way have you followed the instructions written down sir?

that it was done then does not give you a right to do it now, doing it then comes after precise detailed instruction from God is given to a specified person or group. The opposite is what we find in the mass production of the images of Mary and Jesus.


let's even agree with the false notion that God began the new testament by making his own image. The making of these image was recorded, the source recorded as coming from God, the details where specific, the maker and all those involved are known. but soon after, the opposite is what you practice.

just as no command was given to the isrealites to make copies of these images, and the faithful ones adhered to this, no command was given in the new testament and you should have adhered by it too.

Ubenedictus:
THE issue is not whether or not 0.5% saw the image, the issue is that they were made with divine approval and venerated with the same.

1. you need to show me where the 5% who saw those images venerated it?
2. they where not made with divine approval, they where made by divine instructions. God did not approve an image he did not command!

dolphinheart:


1. you need to show me where the 5% who saw those images venerated it?

one example is enough, num 20:6, josh 7:6, dont forget the continous burning of incense.

2. they where not made with divine approval, they where made by divine instructions. God did not approve an image he did not command!

now u are spilting hairs, that which i commanded is done wit my approval.

Ubenedictus:
one example is enough, num 20:6, josh 7:6, dont forget the continous burning of incense.
now u are spilting hairs, that which i commanded is done wit my approval.

wish you would have quoted those verses here.
on the two occasions, they did not see the ark, talk less of veneration any image there.
They knew gods presence was with the ark, they where not bowing down to the ark or venerating it.(though it's covered).

Peritus:

I hope you know that her role is not just intercessory as some argue. How do you see this prayer to our mother of perpetual help?
"O Mother of Perpetual Help, grant that I may ever invoke thy most powerful name, which is the safeguard of the living and the salvation of the dying. O Purest Mary, O Sweetest Mary, let thy name henceforth be ever on my lips. Delay not, O Blessed Lady, to help me whenever I call on thee, for, in all my needs, in all my temptations I shall never cease to call on thee, ever repeating thy sacred name, Mary, Mary."

the same reason the wedding organisers asked her to interces on their behalf ( new testament)

BLINGZ88:
the same reason the wedding organisers asked her to interces on their behalf ( new testament)

First, the wedding organizers did not ask her to intercede, instead she spoke to the son on her own and asked the stewards to do whatever the son says. This is because, she knew that only her son has the power to pass instructions. This is inline with what God said during transfiguration, "this is my beloved son with whom I am well pleased. LISTEN TO HIM". Christ has already passed the instructions on how to worship God in spirit and truth. All we have to do is "listen to him" without adding our own.
See, I love Mary so much, but I can't misplace her position. Until we understand that Christ lives in us and listens to our heart beats, we may not get to know how ready he is to listen to us.

So to my Protestant brothers and sisters out there,putting aside the topic in question are you guys telling me you follow all of God's commandments and are free of sin? If not(which is the likely outcome)then let him be the judge.i dont know why we keep going on about things we know we can't change.you have your beliefs and we the catholics have ours,clearly you won't subscribe to mine and i to yours.[/b]like jesus said do not weep for me but weep for yourselves[b].

BLINGZ88:
the same reason the wedding organisers asked her to interces on their behalf ( new testament)

that is not true!

Peritus:

First, the wedding organizers did not ask her to intercede, instead she spoke to the son on her own and asked the stewards to do whatever the son says. This is because, she knew that only her son has the power to pass instructions. This is inline with what God said during transfiguration, "this is my beloved son with whom I am well pleased. LISTEN TO HIM". Christ has already passed the instructions on how to worship God in spirit and truth. All we have to do is "listen to him" without adding our own.
See, I love Mary so much, but I can't misplace her position. Until we understand that Christ lives in us and listens to our heart beats, we may not get to know how ready he is to listen to us.

I do not think it was because of that. Jesus was over 30 years of age, there is a probability that Joseph had died, therefore jesus was more or less the head of the family. Thus when the wine finished, Mary approached jesus to do something about it. A miracle was the last thing on her mind cus mary or anyone had not seen jesus perform any miracle before.

dolphinheart:


that is not true!

Bros read am again na

Jusmudi:
Bros read am again na

sir, the wedding organizers did not ask her to intervene

dolphinheart:


I do not think it was because of that. Jesus was over 30 years of age, there is a probability that Joseph had died, therefore jesus was more or less the head of the family. Thus when the wine finished, Mary approached jesus to do something about it. A miracle was the last thing on her mind cus mary or anyone had not seen jesus perform any miracle before.

No sir. They were mere invitees just like others. It has nothing to do with their family. Remember, this wedding took place in Cana (Galilee). There was no obligation on them to provide wine or take care of entertainments. Mary knew who Christ was, right from conception. Note that Jesus asked her if she did not know that his time hasn't come. Meaning that she ought to have known.

Peritus:

No sir. They were mere invitees just like others. It has nothing to do with their family. Remember, this wedding took place in Cana (Galilee). There was no obligation on them to provide wine or take care of entertainments. Mary knew who Christ was, right from conception. Note that Jesus asked her if she did not know that his time hasn't come. Meaning that she ought to have known.

2likes for u

dolphinheart:

sir, the wedding organizers did not ask her to intervene

Ar u tellin me mary ll just stand nd meet his child plz dia wine is finished when no-body approached her so dt she ll tel d world dt Jesus is her son nd he is very powerful? Bros reason d mara na, dey approached her dt ws y she called her son