analice107:

And I said, throw in a scripture or two to buttress your point.
The Bible, as a matter of fact, Christians are admonished to pray for one another (the living). And Apostle Paul begs believers to pray for him to have boldness to preach the gospel. How can u ask a dead man to pray for you the living. And you guys even pray for the dead.
Excuse me sir, I was also I Catholic until not too long ago, so you are not talking to someone who was born in Pentecostalism.
Once upon a time, I was where you are now, defending falsehood.
I pray the Holy Spirit convicts your heart.

oh, u saw the light like so many others, congratulations hope u have received the invitation card to heaven. When God asked Moses to mould a snake, when God asked Moses to build the ark of the covenant, when Paul told the people that he wanted to preach to that he wanted to tell them abt the unknown God. maybe u should read ur bible nd not move to a church where the daily preaching is that u will b rich

Syncan:


Dear one, just like Ubenedictus asked earlier, you need to ask yourself and tell us what lineage is. I can at this stage plead with you to read Matt.1:1-16, and concentrate on the way each father beget the son, and the way the last sentence in verse 16 describes Joseph's relationship with Jesus. You'll find out that Joseph is only related to Jesus because he married Mary the mother of Jesus. I don't know why you have to say what you said, it's a basic knowledge in Scripture and Christiandom that Mary is more related to Jesus than Joseph. I wish you will be open to a fair discussion where you will acknowledge truth when it is revealed. However after Mary, Joseph is another great saint that Catholics venerate, he was privileged while on earth and he lived a holy life. Again I say Mary is not in competition with God nor with any saint.

she is trying to be funny, she forgot that Joseph contributed nothing biological to Jesus, joseph was not his biological father. They link Jesus and Joseph just because joseph married mary. Joseph adopted Jesus since he is his wife son. They are not related by blood.

BLINGZ88:
oh, u saw the light like so many others, congratulations hope u have received the invitation card to heaven. When God asked Moses to mould a snake, when God asked Moses to build the ark of the covenant, when Paul told the people that he wanted to preach to that he wanted to tell them abt the unknown God. maybe u should read ur bible nd not move to a church where the daily preaching is that u will b rich

Sweetie, pls stop throwing stones and throw in those scriptures let's really disert them and discuss them within context. Remember motive is everything. What was the motive for what? Bring up the passages.
Atleast today I read the Bible for myself, not Missal where the Papacy pick and chooses what they want to put in there for their zombies to see.
Come, Jesus is waiting for you.

analice107:

Oh!!! Am really ashamed of myself already. Don't bother about what my mother thinks of me. She knows that, although she bore me for 9months, am a Cameroonian, that's because, that's where my family tree is traced to.
I think you just called the Bible or the people who traced Jesus' lineage to Abraham, down to Adam fools.
Why didn't they traced Mary's family tree, but rather Josephs'? Shey the parent the child is related to the most is whose lineage is traced.
Answer me this. Which Tribe was prophesied to, through which the Messiah should come? Or, dodn't you believe in prophecies sir?

You are just busy arguing with yourself, Joseph is a foster father of Jesus, while Mary is His biological mother. What your problem is with Jesus lineage is what I don't know. If He is Joseph son by adoption and without a biological father, is his lineage not from Joseph by adoption too? The bible showed this much. What is wrong with that and how does that make Joseph more related to Jesus than Mary, is what you've failed to show. Recall your first post to me, that Joseph is more related to Jesus than Mary, that's what I have been disproving don't forget.

Ubenedictus:

she is trying to be funny, she forgot that Joseph contributed nothing biological to Jesus, joseph was not his biological father. They link Jesus and Joseph just because joseph married mary. Joseph adopted Jesus since he is his wife son. They are not related by blood.

And Mary contributed her womb and beast fed the child, what else? And I asked you, Mary was Jesus' only parent, why is the lineage not her own? Why was she mentioned at last as the wife of Joseph, son of Jacob, son of... Why was she mentioned as a Wife?
In that genealogy, Rahab was mentioned, Ruth was mentioned, all these women played a part to the coming of the Messiah, all of them traced through Judah, not Mary. Why?

Analice107, do consider reading Luke 3:23-28, do a little study on that, hand in hand with Matt.1:1-16. Tell me if the genealogy is same, if not you may as well tell me why?

Ubenedictus:

she is trying to be funny, she forgot that Joseph contributed nothing biological to Jesus, joseph was not his biological father. They link Jesus and Joseph just because joseph married mary. Joseph adopted Jesus since he is his wife son. They are not related by blood.

I just don't know why truth eludes him/her. Must everything be argued about?

dolphinheart:


Well that's my understanding of the scriptures.
can you give your understanding of these verse?
New International Version
john 2:11What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.
are you saying jesus had performed miracle(s) before these and Mary had seen he could perform miracles?

note my statement:

, let me rephrase: neither mary or anyone had seen Jesus perform any miracle before turning water into wine. Hope you get me now?

i'll give u d right interpretation as a favour.

A sign in biblical terms, is what a prophet do or even a prophesy that must be fulfilled to show Gods power and dat he is frm God. That is why the jews asked Jesus for signs to show he is d messiah, it was like a public proof, something a prophet does to make others believe.

Put simply miracle does not mean exactly d same thing as a sign. A miracle is about God suspending d natural laws to intervene, a sign is a miracle 4 others to believe.

The bible says dat was Jesus first sign it didnt say it was the first miracle he performed. There is a difference.

dolphinheart:


simple, what jusmudi said is different from the scriptures you quoted. you can quote what he said and quote the scripture you gave and compare the two, they are not saying the same thing!

u are d one making the claim that the scripture i quoted and the one jusmudi alluded to a different, it is ur work to show that they are.

No. Catholics know God very well and it is Him only they worship.

analice107:

And Mary contributed her womb and beast fed the child, what else? And I asked you, Mary was Jesus' only parent, why is the lineage not her own? Why was she mentioned at last as the wife of Joseph, son of Jacob, son of... Why was she mentioned as a Wife?
In that genealogy, Rahab was mentioned, Ruth was mentioned, all these women played a part to the coming of the Messiah, all of them traced through Judah, not Mary. Why?

please humour me.

How is Joseph related to Jesus? Is he Jesus father or step father?
How is mary related to Jesus? Is she his mother or step mother?

dolphinheart:
I did not twist the scriptures, I just gave you my own understanding of God's command using the details given by the scriptures as guide.

that is the problem, what the bible says and what u understand are different. The bible says "do not make any graven image unto thyself", ie do not make any graven image For urself, u understand it as, do not make image without command. Sorry but ur understanding is not what is written there.

[color=blue]]1Ch 2
11. David then gave to his son Solʹo·mon the architectural plan of the porch and of its houses, its storerooms, its roof chambers, its inner rooms, and the house of the propitiatory cover.
12. He gave him the architectural plan of everything that had been conveyed to him through inspiration for the courtyards of Jehovah’s house, for all the dining rooms around it, for the treasuries of the house of the true God, and for the treasuries of the things made holy;
13 .also for the divisions of the priests and of the Levites, for all the duties of the service of Jehovah’s house, and for all the utensils of the service of Jehovah’s house;
14. also for the weight of the gold, the gold for all the utensils for the different services, the weight of all the utensils of silver, and for all the utensils for the different services;
15. also the weight for the gold lampstands and their gold lamps, the weight of the different lampstands and their lamps, and the weight of the silver lampstands, for each lampstand and its lamps according to its use;
16. also the weight of the gold for the tables of the layer bread, for each table, as well as the silver for the tables of silver,
17. for the forks, the bowls, the pitchers of pure gold, and the weight of the small gold bowls, for each small bowl, and the weight of the small silver bowls, for each small bowl.
18. he also gave the weight for the refined gold for the incense altar and for the representation of the chariot, namely, the cherubs of gold that spread their wings out and overshadow the ark of the covenant of Jehovah.
19. David said: “The hand of Jehovah was upon me, and he gave me insight to put all the details of the architectural plan in writing.”

2Ch 4:19,20,22: Solʹo·mon made all the utensils for the house of the true God: the altar of gold; the tables with the showbread on them;
20. the lampstands and their lamps of pure gold, to burn before the innermost room according to the requirements;
22. the extinguishers, the bowls, the cups, and the fire holders, of pure gold; and the entrance of the house, its inner doors for the Most Holy, and the doors of the house of the temple, of gold.

Ubene,pls tell if any of my following points is or are false.

here we go.

Below is what you said

"For everyone to be certain that these is a divine intruction, and for everyone to see that such instructions where followed in detail, God
had it recorded and
preserved."
you claim God did this for every image, ie "had it instruction recorded and preserved" the above passages talk abt d achitectural plan of d temple and it utensils, it didnt mention a single thing about the images i asked about, the trees and d winged creature i ask about, remember you said details were given and d instruction was RECORDED and PRESERVED.

dolphinheart:


just qoute those verses and we will examine.

i actually quoted the verse here

the bible says
"joshua...prostrated himself before the ark" joshua 7:6


who is lying, you accuse
catholics of bowing before image yet the bible says Joshua too prostated before an image.

analice107:

Sweetie, pls stop throwing stones and throw in those scriptures let's really disert them and discuss them within context. Remember motive is everything. What was the motive for what? Bring up the passages.
Atleast today I read the Bible for myself, not Missal where the Papacy pick and chooses what they want to put in there for their zombies to see.
Come, Jesus is waiting for you.

in the catholic church, we believe that God is everywhere nd in everything because he made all things by him , I am NT here to defend the catholic church cos they have so many fault as a church and so is any church u are going to. Though something always bothers me, why do non Catholics always tackle the catholic church nd its doctrines? Nd since u know everything abt the bible, maybe u should help me research where does totems where used

analice107:

Sweetie, pls stop throwing stones and throw in those scriptures let's really disert them and discuss them within context. Remember motive is everything. What was the motive for what? Bring up the passages.
Atleast today I read the Bible for myself, not Missal where the Papacy pick and chooses what they want to put in there for their zombies to see.
Come, Jesus is waiting for you.

nd I argue reasonably with people till dey start calling me zombie, so dis is where I end my argument thank you

BLINGZ88:
nd I argue reasonably with people till dey start calling me zombie, so dis is where I end my argument thank you

Pls I don't mean any insult to u personally. My bad. I was just trying to make a point.

Ubenedictus:
i'll give u d right interpretation as a favour.

A sign in biblical terms, is what a prophet do or even a prophesy that must be fulfilled to show Gods power and dat he is frm God. That is why the jews asked Jesus for signs to show he is d messiah, it was like a public proof, something a prophet does to make others believe.

Put simply miracle does not mean exactly d same thing as a sign. A miracle is about God suspending d natural laws to intervene, a sign is a miracle 4 others to believe.

The bible says dat was Jesus first sign it didnt say it was the first miracle he performed. There is a difference.

by the bolded above, you are telling us that if you perform a sign, you have performed a miracle.
I wunt go into the definition or differences between miracles and signs, I just want you to look at the same verse from other translations and tell me they are wrong to use the word "miracles" in that verse.
ube, if the translations are not wrong, then it means your explanation is false and you need to retract it!

King James Bible
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

NET Bible
Jesus did this as the first of his miraculous signs, in Cana of Galilee. In this way he revealed his glory, and his disciples believed in him.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
This first miracle Yeshua did in Qatna of Galilee and he manifested his glory, and his disciples believed in him.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Cana in Galilee was the place where Jesus began to perform miracles. He made his glory public there, and his disciples believed in him.

Douay-Rheims Bible
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee; and manifested his glory, and his disciples believed in him

Webster's Bible Translation
This beginning of miracles Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee, and manifested his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

Weymouth New Testament
This, the first of His miracles, Jesus performed at Cana in Galilee, and thus displayed His glorious power; and His disciples believed in Him.

Besides are you bold enough to tell us which bible or bibles translations that you use?

I'll await your response.

Ubenedictus:
u are d one making the claim that the scripture i quoted and the one jusmudi alluded to a different, it is ur work to show that they are.

I like keeping things in a right formal way, I wunt use what you posted to argue against what jusmudi posted. If you want me to show you the differences, pls quote what jusmudi stated and defend it by quoting the scripture you want to use to defend it. or jusmudi can he himself quote the scriptures to defend his post.
note: I did not say post the scripture, I said quote the scripture, I'm tired of going through posted scriptures that do not correspond with what the person is saying.

Ubenedictus:

that is the problem, what the bible says and what u understand are different. The bible says "do not make any graven image unto thyself", ie do not make any graven image For urself, u understand it as, do not make image without command. Sorry but ur understanding is not what is written there.

ube, if you had read my explanation about my understanding, an explanation which was listed, and if you had not deliberately omitted it when quoting my post, maybe you would have seen that there is no problem!. that you omitted it shows that you have nothing to use to counter it, you just want to argue and not discuss.
I gave you an explanation, go back to it, quote it and tell if I'm right or wrong (with reasons). pls stop cutting important parts of my post off

" , I just gave you my own understanding of God's command using the details given by the scriptures as guide.
1. The scriptures shows that the isrealites made images that where approved by jehovah for religious purpose.
2. The scriptures shows that the isrealites made images that where not approved by jehovah.
3. All the images approved by jehovah had a prior command approving it's construction
4. All the images not aproved by jehovah did not have a prior command.
5. There fore "do not make for yourself" could not mean "do not make for yourself any image at all" Since there is evidence to show that they did made images(for there own use) that has gods approval.
6. looking at the images God approved and disproved , we can conclude that "do not make for yourselves" mean "do not make for yourself any image without prior approval or command" as all image maDe without this where rejected by jehovah."

here we go.

Below is what you said

"For everyone to be certain that these is a divine intruction, and for everyone to see that such instructions where followed in detail, God
had it recorded and
preserved."
you claim God did this for every image, ie "had it instruction recorded and preserved" the above passages talk abt d achitectural plan of d temple and it utensils, it didnt mention a single thing about the images i asked about, the trees and d winged creature i ask about, remember you said details were given and d instruction was RECORDED and PRESERVED.

Why did you cut part of my post, cus you know reading it will not allow you ask these questions, I'll answer you, but you need to quote my post again, leaving everything INTACT! cus the answers are in the part you deliberately omitted.

by the way, why did you refuse to respond to the points I showed to you, are they true or false?


[/quote]

Ubenedictus:

i actually quoted the verse here

the bible says
"joshua...prostrated himself before the ark" joshua 7:6


who is lying, you accuse
catholics of bowing before image yet the bible says Joshua too prostated before an image.

first thing first, pls dnt lie against me, on this thread, ive not accused anyone of bowing to any image. so pls dnt use a lie to claim that I lied.

now to the issue of the ark and joshua." Bowing before" is different from "bowing to". If you bow before something it means you are using that thing to achieve something, it does not mean you are venerating it. but if you bow to it, it means you are venerating/ worshiping it!

now the questions are:
1. did joshua bow before or to the ark
2. why did joshua do such
3. did joshua see the ark?

1. joshua did not bow to the ark , he bowed before the ark
Then Joshua tore his clothes and fell facedown to the ground before the ark of the LORD, remaining there till evening. The elders of Israel did the same, and sprinkled dust on their heads.

one can claim that catholics bow before the image of Mary but not to the image of Mary using joshuas example as basis, but reality shows otherwise.
I'll like to ask, do they do it the same way as joshua did his bowing down!

2. why did joshua bow before the ark.
The answers are partly answered by the next verse
Jos 7:7Joshua said: “Alas, Sovereign Lord Jehovah, why did you bring this people all the way across the Jordan just to hand us over to the Amʹor·ites to be destroyed? If only we had been satisfied to remain on the other side of the Jordan!

joshua was praying to Jehovah before the ark , lamenting their predicament that was stated in the previous verses.
but praying to Jehovah before the ark does not fully answer why he did so, why does joshua feel it is ok to pray to Jehovah before that particular image.? The scriptures gives us the answer below.
ex 25:22 - There, above the cover between the two cherubim that are over the ark of the covenant law, I will meet with you and give you all my commands for the Israelites.

lev 16:2- The LORD said to Moses: "Tell your brother Aaron that he is not to come whenever he chooses into the Most Holy Place behind the curtain in front of the atonement cover on the ark, or else he will die. For I will appear in the cloud over the atonement cover.

with this scriptures above , we can see that joshua is right to seek jehovah before the ark because jehovah has stated and had it recorded that his presence is with the ark!
Read judges 20:27,28, ; num 20:6

so bro joshua did not venerate the ark because of bowing down before it, but he was seeking the presence of jehovah. same as moses and Aaron.

3. could joshua see the ark when he bowed down before it?
Noo, the ark was always covered when moved, and was always in the tebanacle or tent when not in motion.

Nu 4:5,6,15- Aaron and his sons will come in when the camp is departing and take down the screening curtain and cover the ark of the Testimony with it.
6They will put a sealskin covering over it and spread out a solid blue cloth over it and put its carrying poles in place.
15.“Aaron and his sons must finish covering the holy place and all the utensils of the holy place when the camp is departing. Then the sons of Koʹhath will come in to carry them, but they must not touch the holy place or they will die. These things are the responsibility of the sons of Koʹhath in connection with the tent of meeting.

could joshua enter the tent/tebanacle to see the ark when it was not in motion?
no ooooo! joshua was not a Levites, not a son of Aaron. If he had seen the ark , he would be dead!

now, a wise man will consider these scriptures above and compare how they treated the ark to how the images in churches today are being treated. The following questions should come to a wise ones heart.
1. is there a record that gives details of the construction of these images , even if the records are just f mentioned but the real record is lost?
2. is there any mention that their is physical evidence to show that God is with these physical image or approves of it?
3. is there any record of divine instruction as to the construction of the image.
4. is there any record on the name of the person(s) who will oversee the making of these images.
5. are these images kept from popular viewing
6. how have God viewed images kept in places where all can see?

answers to this questions will help a wise one to see if the making of the images used for religious purposes today is right or wrong.

[quote author=dolphinheart post=44150032]
by the bolded above, you are telling us that if you perform a sign, you have performed a miracle.
I wunt go into the definition or differences between miracles and signs, I just want you to look at the same verse from other translations and tell me they are wrong to use the word "miracles" in that verse.
ube, if the translations are not wrong, then it means your explanation is false and you need to retract it!

King James Bible
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

NET Bible
Jesus did this as the first of his miraculous signs, in Cana of Galilee. In this way he revealed his glory, and his disciples believed in him.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
This first miracle Yeshua did in Qatna of Galilee and he manifested his glory, and his disciples believed in him.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Cana in Galilee was the place where Jesus began to perform miracles. He made his glory public there, and his disciples believed in him.

Douay-Rheims Bible
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee; and manifested his glory, and his disciples believed in him

Webster's Bible Translation
This beginning of miracles Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee, and manifested his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

Weymouth New Testament
This, the first of His miracles, Jesus performed at Cana in Galilee, and thus displayed His glorious power; and His disciples believed in Him.

Besides are you bold enough to tell us which bible or bibles translations that you use?

I'll await your response.
[/quot] do u notice that all the versions says that it was a miracle to show forth his glory as earlier defined a sign.
I'll rada not continue to argue this while leaving d meat of d discussion so i'll withdraw my explanation and let it go.

I use d new jerusalem version, douy rheim, rsv among others.

dolphinheart:


first thing first, pls dnt lie against me, on this thread, ive not accused anyone of bowing to any image. so pls dnt use a lie to claim that I lied.

now to the issue of the ark and joshua." Bowing before" is different from "bowing to". If you bow before something it means you are using that thing to achieve something, it does not mean you are venerating it. but if you bow to it, it means you are venerating/ worshiping it!

now the questions are:
1. did joshua bow before or to the ark
2. why did joshua do such
3. did joshua see the ark?

1. joshua did not bow to the ark , he bowed before the ark
Then Joshua tore his clothes and fell facedown to the ground before the ark of the LORD, remaining there till evening. The elders of Israel did the same, and sprinkled dust on their heads.

one can claim that catholics bow before the image of Mary but not to the image of Mary using joshuas example as basis, but reality shows otherwise.

what reality shows otherwise?

I'll like to ask, do they do it the same way as joshua did his bowing down!

and i'll say YES. Nobody venerate images 4 their own sake, the church is clear on that, what we have is relative honor, ie we honor what d image represent and not just d image 4 itself. That is what joshua did.

2. why did joshua bow before the ark.
The answers are partly answered by the next verse
Jos 7:7Joshua said: “Alas, Sovereign Lord Jehovah, why did you bring this people all the way across the Jordan just to hand us over to the Amʹor·ites to be destroyed? If only we had been satisfied to remain on the other side of the Jordan!

joshua was praying to Jehovah before the ark , lamenting their predicament that was stated in the previous verses.
but praying to Jehovah before the ark does not fully answer why he did so, why does joshua feel it is ok to pray to Jehovah before that particular image.? The scriptures gives us the answer below.
ex 25:22 - There, above the cover between the two cherubim that are over the ark of the covenant law, I will meet with you and give you all my commands for the Israelites.

lev 16:2- The LORD said to Moses: "Tell your brother Aaron that he is not to come whenever he chooses into the Most Holy Place behind the curtain in front of the atonement cover on the ark, or else he will die. For I will appear in the cloud over the atonement cover.

with this scriptures above , we can see that joshua is right to seek jehovah before the ark because jehovah has stated and had it recorded that his presence is with the ark!
Read judges 20:27,28, ; num 20:6

so bro joshua did not venerate the ark because of bowing down before it, but he was seeking the presence of jehovah. same as moses and Aaron.

weldone now u are helping me make my point. Joshua lies down b4 an image cos it represents d power of God

3. could joshua see the ark when he bowed down before it?
Noo, the ark was always covered when moved, and was always in the tebanacle or tent when not in motion.

Nu 4:5,6,15- Aaron and his sons will come in when the camp is departing and take down the screening curtain and cover the ark of the Testimony with it.
6They will put a sealskin covering over it and spread out a solid blue cloth over it and put its carrying poles in place.
15.“Aaron and his sons must finish covering the holy place and all the utensils of the holy place when the camp is departing. Then the sons of Koʹhath will come in to carry them, but they must not touch the holy place or they will die. These things are the responsibility of the sons of Koʹhath in connection with the tent of meeting.

could joshua enter the tent/tebanacle to see the ark when it was not in motion?
no ooooo! joshua was not a Levites, not a son of Aaron. If he had seen the ark , he would be dead!

this is non seqitur, it doesnt matter whether or not joshua could see d image, the issue is dat he prostrated b4 it.

[quote author=Ubenedictus post=44167931][/quote]

you don't need to continue arguing , the facts , using the scriptures has been presented to you.
Good to know that you have accepted that the miracle in Cana was the first jesus ever performed.

dolphinheart:


you don't need to continue arguing , the facts , using the scriptures has been presented to you.
Good to know that you have accepted that the miracle in Cana was the first jesus ever performed.

i withdrew my statement so as not to continue a long arguement, i didnt say i accepted what u said, hope u dont have a problem with comprehension?

dolphinheart:

ube, if you had read my explanation about my understanding, an explanation which was listed, and if you had not deliberately omitted it when quoting my post, maybe you would have seen that there is no problem!. that you omitted it shows that you have nothing to use to counter it, you just want to argue and not discuss.
I gave you an explanation, go back to it, quote it and tell if I'm right or wrong (with reasons). pls stop cutting important parts of my post off

" , I just gave you my own understanding of God's command using the details given by the scriptures as guide.
1. The scriptures shows that the isrealites made images that where approved by jehovah for religious purpose.
2. The scriptures shows that the isrealites made images that where not approved by jehovah.
3. All the images approved by jehovah had a prior command approving it's construction
4. All the images not aproved by jehovah did not have a prior command.
5. There fore "do not make for yourself" could not mean "do not make for yourself any image at all" Since there is evidence to show that they did made images(for there own use) that has gods approval.
6. looking at the images God approved and disproved , we can conclude that "do not make for yourselves" mean "do not make for yourself any image without prior approval or command" as all image maDe without this where rejected by jehovah."

i'm not delibrately cuting out ur post. My palasa fone has a word limit, that means i have to cut down any long post so i can respond. I read ur story d first time, it is still the same thing.
I dont need ur understanding, i nid what scriptures says, it says "do not make unto thyself any graven image" or simply "do not make FOR yourself" that is what the word says, it is clear enough. "without my command" is not there, ur understanding cant be found in that passage.

Why did you cut part of my post, cus you know reading it will not allow you ask these questions, I'll answer you, but you need to quote my post again, leaving everything INTACT! cus the answers are in the part you deliberately omitted.

by the way, why did you refuse to respond to the points I showed to you, are they true or false?

sorry dear, d answer is not there, the preserved detailed instruction for d specific images i asked for are not there!

Your points are non seqitur, whether or not images were covered didnt stop anyone from bowing b4 it or knowing they are there. Infact d isrealite faced dat image wheneves they pray, i'm still waiting of d detailed preserved instruction records of several images, and since u admit that d images were buit from inspiration given to David, it only opens d question, when did inspiration stop? Pretty much ur points do not affect d discussion because ur understanding of ex 20 isnt found in d passage, what we do have are image that people bowed before as they prayed and God wasnt angry becos he knew they were bowing b4 what d images represented a parallel to what catholics and d early xtians practiced.

Ubenedictus:
what reality shows otherwise?
and i'll say YES. Nobody venerate images 4 their own sake, the church is clear on that, what we have is relative honor, ie we honor what d image represent and not just d image 4 itself. That is what joshua did.

I've shown you what joshua did, ive shown you , using the scriptures, why he did that. now tell us, what does the ark represent?
joshua bowed before the ark cus he is sure that he can get to hear from jehovah there. He did not just do it on his own volition, his actions was based on precedence, an action accepted by God, an action that was recorded, an action that has divine directives.
1. The construction of the ark was by Jehovahs directive.
2. the details where recorded.
3. Jehovah showed his approval of the construction physically and it was recorded.
4. Jehovah told then to approach him before the ark and only those ordained to do so did.
5. Jehovah presence is with the ark, it was seen and recorded.

ube, can you align any image constructed today with these points above? Take the points one by one, and tell us if any image you bow down to fulfill these things .
If it can't, then it shows you can't compare the image joshua bowed before, and the reason he bowed before it, with the images you bow before, and the reasons you bow before it.

weldone now u are helping me make my point. Joshua lies down b4 an image cos it represents d power of God

Lets for the mean time take this as true.
1. The power was physically manifest.
2. the promise of the physical manifestation was given
3. everything that joshua did had divine aprovAl, directive, and precedence.

THe bowing down to the image today, do not have those things!

this is non seqitur, it doesnt matter whether or not joshua could see d image, the issue is dat he prostrated b4 it.

it's just to show you that the images today do not follow precedence or directives, the images God commanded to be made where not kept in the open or doorways where anyone could see them. only very very very very few people could see them. 99% of isrealites did not see these images.
Do you cover your images up?

Ubenedictus:
i withdrew my statement so as not to continue a long arguement, i didnt say i accepted what u said, hope u dont have a problem with comprehension?

pls, next time, dnt withdraw statements if you believe they are true, it will only allow falsehood to remain. you can simply refuse to talk about it.

remember my words: if those scriptures where right, then your statement is wrong and you should withdraw it.

nop, I dnt think I have a problem with comprehesion.

Ubenedictus:

i'm not delibrately cuting out ur post. My palasa fone has a word limit, that means i have to cut down any long post so i can respond. I read ur story d first time, it is still the same thing.
I dont need ur understanding, i nid what scriptures says, it says "do not make unto thyself any graven image" or simply "do not make FOR yourself" that is what the word says, it is clear enough. "without my command" is not there, ur understanding cant be found in that passage.

pls quote the points I listed one by one and tell if they are true or false.

sorry dear, d answer is not there, the preserved detailed instruction for d specific images i asked for are not there

just quote it again, you'll see it.

Your points are non seqitur, whether or not images were covered didnt stop anyone from bowing b4 it or knowing they are there. Infact d isrealite faced dat image wheneves they pray, i'm still waiting of d detailed preserved instruction records of several images, and since u admit that d images were buit from inspiration given to David, it only opens d question, when did inspiration stop? Pretty much ur points do not affect d discussion because ur understanding of ex 20 isnt found in d passage, what we do have are image that people bowed before as they prayed and God wasnt angry becos he knew they were bowing b4 what d images represented a parallel to what catholics and d early xtians practiced.

all images commaded by jehovah for construction are not kept in the open, the images made today are kept in the open.
The images commanded by God are not kept in places anyone can approach, not the same with images today.

bro, you can't get the detailed preserved record of David, it has been destroyed long ago, inclusive the temple itself!, but will you deny it when the scriptures said it was recorded?

is your image by inspiration? , then where is the record!, or a mention of it being recorded!.
It seems you dnt get it, it is that record, the constructor, and the mention of divine approval that protects us from Satan's machinations today. If anyone just makes any image and gives it any name for any reason, it's an examination of the records, comparing it with the history of images made , that will show if such image is divine or not. You refuse to show record of the inspiration.

ube, answer these question truthfully, if I show you the image of brad Pitt(not knowing who brad pitt is) and tell you that's the image of Jesus, would you bow to it? and why will you bow or not bow to it?

{Luke 11:27-28} As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and blessed are the breasts that nursed You.”
But He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”…
So according to this, my Mother and my brothers and sisters are those who walk with God, so Mary is not only my Mother, she is my sister too, in Christ.. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
"Mary is favourable-and she was a believer, but the question is, did she believe enough to teach her other siblings about Jesus and how He came into the world-did Joseph teach his siblings-how an Angel of the Lord woken him in a dream about Jesus. "James nor his brothers and sisters believed until after Jesus had risen.
{John 7:5} For neither did His brothers believe in Him, "James did not grow up a believer..
It wasn’t until Jesus’ resurrection and His appearance to James and the disciples that James finally really understood who his half brother was.
{Proverbs 22:6} God tells parents to train their Children, teach them wisdom and knowledge about God for the future..
{Matthew 12:47-50} Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.
For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven {by believing in Me, and following Me} is My brother and sister and mother.
This shows if Mary was a believer just like the rest of us-then she shouldn't be put on high to be worshipped, and after reading the scriptures ''Jesus knew His brothers and sisters and Mother didn't come to Him because they believed-they come to Him thinking Jesus is insane. Let's not forget-Jesus wasn't welcome in His hometown..{Mark 3:21, Luke 4:24}
Many Catholic's believe Mary didn't have other siblings,,,so if this is the case, then it's obvious someone had made a terrible mistake, in sharing the gospel.

brocab:
{Luke 11:27-28} As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and blessed are the breasts that nursed You.”
But He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”…
So according to this, my Mother and my brothers and sisters are those who walk with God, so Mary is not only my Mother, she is my sister too, in Christ.. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
"Mary is favourable-and she was a believer, but the question is, did she believe enough to teach her other siblings about Jesus and how He came into the world-did Joseph teach his siblings-how an Angel of the Lord woken him in a dream about Jesus. "James nor his brothers and sisters believed until after Jesus had risen.
{John 7:5} For neither did His brothers believe in Him, "James did not grow up a believer..
It wasn’t until Jesus’ resurrection and His appearance to James and the disciples that James finally really understood who his half brother was.
{Proverbs 22:6} God tells parents to train their Children, teach them wisdom and knowledge about God for the future..
{Matthew 12:47-50} Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.
For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven {by believing in Me, and following Me} is My brother and sister and mother.
This shows if Mary was a believer just like the rest of us-then she shouldn't be put on high to be worshipped, and after reading the scriptures ''Jesus knew His brothers and sisters and Mother didn't come to Him because they believed-they come to Him thinking Jesus is insane. Let's not forget-Jesus wasn't welcome in His hometown..{Mark 3:21, Luke 4:24}
Many Catholic's believe Mary didn't have other siblings,,,so if this is the case, then it's obvious someone had made a terrible mistake, in sharing the gospel.

As for the honor due to Mary... I have to encourage you to reflect on the words of Elizabeth in Lk 1
And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

If you understand that then you will get it.

{Luke 1} Uben: I suppose it's the way we read and understand our bibles that makes the difference, both Elizabeth and Mary were filled with the Holy Spirit, and when Mary entered into the house the babe filled with the Holy Spirit leaped for joy.
We know-The Father is God. {Matthew 6:8, 7:21, Galatians 1:1}
And we know-Jesus is God from the beginning {John 1: 1-18}
And of course-The Holy Spirit is God {John 15:26, Mark 3:29, 1 Corinthians 6:19}. These three are One..
{Luke 1:13} But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your prayer has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John.
So through faith Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit to bare a son..And John was already filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.
{Luke 1:34} And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?” And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.
Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. For nothing will be impossible with God.” And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.
The Angel told Mary, 6 months after Elizabeth was pregnant, it was after 'Mary had rose and went with haste into the hill country, to a town in Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. The babe was filled with the Holy Spirit..

Ubenedictus:
And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

This doesn't mean Mary will always come supernaturally in the spirit after she had past-she is not God 'nor is she called to be our messenger from God.
And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
This is deafeningly God speaking through His Spirit, the Holy Spirit working together in both Mary and Elizabeth at the same time!
Uben-when you are filled with the Holy Spirit the same Spirit in Mary that came to Elizabeth will come to you too-and you will leap for joy-Mary isn't just remembered by the Catholic Church, she is made into an image a tool to be worshipped-Mary's name is above every other name, either in heaven on earth or under the earth-the evident's still stands with you Uben-still fighting for your Queen?
"Elizabeth's word's did not come from flesh and blood, but by the Word of God-"Worship God "Not" the image!
These are Word's of encouragement, these are not word's to worship Mary, neither are they word's to recognise Mary as our mediator, nor is she our savour.
All thank's is given to God, "He knew Mary from the beginning, He shaped Mary, Modded Mary, and prepared the virgin Mary to take this task.
God knew, He made her to be true and faithful to Him!
Through faith Elizabeth was chosen-shaped and modded for Him, through faith we are the chosen, shaped and modded for Him..

Ubenedictus:


As for the honor due to Mary... I have to encourage you to reflect on the words of Elizabeth in Lk 1
And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

If you understand that then you will get it.

brocab:
{Luke 1} Uben: I suppose it's the way we read and understand our bibles that makes the difference, both Elizabeth and Mary were filled with the Holy Spirit, and when Mary entered into the house the babe filled with the Holy Spirit leaped for joy.
We know-The Father is God. {Matthew 6:8, 7:21, Galatians 1:1}
And we know-Jesus is God from the beginning {John 1: 1-18}
And of course-The Holy Spirit is God {John 15:26, Mark 3:29, 1 Corinthians 6:19}. These three are One..
{Luke 1:13} But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your prayer has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John.
So through faith Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit to bare a son..And John was already filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.
{Luke 1:34} And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?” And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.
Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. For nothing will be impossible with God.” And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.
The Angel told Mary, 6 months after Elizabeth was pregnant, it was after 'Mary had rose and went with haste into the hill country, to a town in Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. The babe was filled with the Holy Spirit..

This doesn't mean Mary will always come supernaturally in the spirit after she had past-she is not God 'nor is she called to be our messenger from God.
And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
This is deafeningly God speaking through His Spirit, the Holy Spirit working together in both Mary and Elizabeth at the same time!
Uben-when you are filled with the Holy Spirit the same Spirit in Mary that came to Elizabeth will come to you too-and you will leap for joy-Mary isn't just remembered by the Catholic Church, she is made into an image a tool to be worshipped-Mary's name is above every other name, either in heaven on earth or under the earth-the evident's still stands with you Uben-still fighting for your Queen?
"Elizabeth's word's did not come from flesh and blood, but by the Word of God-"Worship God "Not" the image!
These are Word's of encouragement, these are not word's to worship Mary, neither are they word's to recognise Mary as our mediator, nor is she our savour.
All thank's is given to God, "He knew Mary from the beginning, He shaped Mary, Modded Mary, and prepared the virgin Mary to take this task.
God knew, He made her to be true and faithful to Him!
Through faith Elizabeth was chosen-shaped and modded for Him, through faith we are the chosen, shaped and modded for Him..

This same Elisabeth who received the Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit in Mary and his a mother of a prophet said.
And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

What does that tell you?