X-factoria:

Thanks PhysicsMHD. I have resolved the ban issue.

Let me quickly point out a misconception here. You keep getting things mixed up about Ooni's statement featured in this link: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-392592.64.html#msg7726462

"Since Oranmiyan dynasty started in Benin, all the heads of the Obas of Benin on demise were buried in Ife in a sacred place called “Orun-Oba-Ado” up to the year 1900. 4. Records in the archives made it clear that since 1191AD, the Ooni of Ife had to be informed, and clearance must be given by him on the new Oba of Benin to be installed up to 1916"

Ooni mentioned that only the head of the Obas were buried in Ife. It is possible that the bodies were buried in Benin with slaves like you suggested in your previous posts. Ooni may not be wrong here except you can proof that the Oba's heads were buried with them in the graves in Benin.

I feel strongly that very soon either you or me will sponsor an archeological research to unravel the truth about this. Certainly, it has to be so one day.

The response:

PhysicsMHD:
Let me point out some misconceptions

1. The Orun Oba Ado head claim was completely made up. It was ingenious, I admit, because Ado is definitely a Yoruba word for Benin (Edo). Unfortunately, it is simply not grounded in facts.
Igbo, for example, apart from being a word for forest or bush, is coincidentally the word for an ethnic group or nation that happens to be not too far from the Yoruba and also from the same language family. With the trend that the Ooni of Ife has advocated with regard to Orun Oba Ado, I wonder if he or his descendants will later start complaining if Igbo scholars at some later time exploit the abundance of the word Igbo (forest, bush, etc.) in ancient Yoruba sites, including Ife (Igbo Obameri, for an example of an Ife site) to start claiming that they (Igbos) laid these foundations in ancient times? See how distortion can backfire?

2. Egharevba introduced the claim that Eweka I ordered that upon his death his remains should be taken to Ife and that this was repeated in every third reign after him. There was never any reference to a head. The after death decapitation is precisely the abomination that makes the claim even sillier.
Orun Oba Ado, which supposedly means the spiritual domain of the Oba of Benin, is among the earliest – actually, the earliest – significant archaeological site in Ife, with radiocarbon dates going back to the 6th century AD, from one of Frank Willett’s numerous archaeological excavations in Ife (see 1968. Radiocarbon Dates, WAAN, IX, 73. and 1969. New Radiocarbon Dates for Ife, WAAN, XI, both by Frank Willett. Or, see Archaeology in Nigeria(1969) by Thurstan Shaw if you can’t access those articles.) The only comparable significant archaeological features of Ife are the ancient walls also dated to the 6th century. So 6th century Ife had earthen walls/ramparts and an important foundational site that was already or was to become the "spiritual domain" of Benin (whether on the initiative of Benin or Ife, doesn't really matter to me)?

So if you actually believe that Orun Oba Ado – the supposed spiritual domain of the Oba of Benin or the "the heaven of the kings of Benin"– which is at the heart of Ife near the Ife palace itself (by this I mean that is occupies a much more central location relative to the archaeological remains of Ife and the walls/ramparts of Ife, as contrasted with Ita Yemoo, for example, which is on the periphery) and is conspicuously close to Opa Oranmiyan, is tied to Benin, surely you can see the implications of this. Backfire #2. Once again, distortion bites the hand that feeds it .

3. You don’t seem to have grasped what a real burial of a king of Benin was like in olden times so let me give it to you in full detail and I hope you can use your immense knowledge of Ifa to divine the point at which the head is taken and enlighten the rest of us:

"Among others, there is in the kingdom of Benin an ancient custom, observed to the present day, that when the king dies, the people all assemble in a large field, in the centre of which is a very deep well, wider at the bottom than at the mouth. They cast the body of the dead king into this well, and all his friends and servants gather round, and those who are judged to have been most dear to and favoured by the king (this includes not a few, as all are anxious for the honour) voluntarily go down and keep him company. When they have done so, the people place a great stone over the mouth of the well, and remain by it day and night. On the second day a few deputies remove the stone, and ask those below what they know, and if any of them have already gone to serve the king; and the reply is, No. On the third day the same question is asked, and someone then replies that so-and-so, mentioning a name, has been the first to go, and so-and-so the second. It is considered highly praiseworthy to be the first, and he is spoken of with the greatest admiration by all the people, and considered happy and blessed. After four or five days all these unfortunate people die. When this is apparent to those above, since none reply to their questions, they inform their new king; who causes a great fire to be lit near the well, where numerous animals are roasted. These are given to the people to eat, and he with great ceremony is declared to be the true king, and takes the oath to govern well." - From the account of a 'Voyage from Lisbona to the island of San Thomé south of the Equator, described by a Portuguese pilot, and sent to his magnificence Count Rimondo della Torre, gentleman of Verona, and translated from the Portuguese into Italian', published in Giovanni Battista Ramusio (1550), and retranslated by Blake (1942), i, pp. 150-1. The account was written in about the year 1540, according to Blake, and 'the author may have been one of the scores of Portuguese pilots who at this time were familiar with the navigation from Lisbon to the island of São Thomé'. - From the book Nigerian Perspectives (2nd ed.) by Thomas Hodgkin

4. “No human remains or artifacts of Benin culture were found in six burials excavated at Arun-Oba-Ado”

The source for this conclusion being Frank Willett’s article in the book The African Iron Age, P. L. SHINNIE, (ed.)

Don't seem to be able to repost it without a spam ban. I'll find another way to post it then.

tpiah!:

well, the question is why is anyone obliged to give you that information?

Rather the right question should be, what’s there to hide if it they do exist and are readily available?

If you have it, please post, because I’m more interested in Oduduwa/Yorubic history than Osiris/Egyptian history.

Thanks in advance.

In Yorùbá mythology, Odùduwà was the son of Olorun, sent by him from heaven to create the earth. Descending from the heavens via a chain let down to Ile Ife, Odùduwà brought with him a cock, some soil and a calabash. After throwing the soil upon the waters, the cock then scratched on it to create the rest of dry land that would become the Earth's surface. Odùduwà subsequently became the first Ooni of Ife, and then sent his sons out to rule over all of the other Yorùbá kingdoms, which is why all royal Yorùbá lineages claim direct descent from Odùduwà and refer to the Ooni of Ife as primus

whether you agree or not oduduwa fall from heaven

Who refers to the Ooni of Ife as primus inter pares? The Alaafin of Oyo?



The other stories around Oduduwa suggest a foreign interloper figure, and they suggest an actual human being.

PhysicsHD:

What I posted earlier:


Let me point out some misconceptions

1. The Orun Oba Ado head claim was completely made up. It was ingenious, I admit, because Ado is definitely a Yoruba word for Benin (Edo). Unfortunately, it is simply not grounded in facts.
Igbo, for example, apart from being a word for forest or bush, is coincidentally the word for an ethnic group or nation that happens to be not too far from the Yoruba and also from the same language family. With the trend that the Ooni of Ife has advocated with regard to Orun Oba Ado, I wonder if he or his descendants will later start complaining if Igbo scholars at some later time exploit the abundance of the word Igbo (forest, bush, etc.) in ancient Yoruba sites, including Ife (Igbo Obameri, for an example of an Ife site) to start claiming that they (Igbos) laid these foundations in ancient times? See how distortion can backfire?

2. Egharevba introduced the claim that Eweka I ordered that upon his death his remains should be taken to Ife and that this was repeated in every third reign after him. There was never any reference to a head. The after death decapitation is precisely the abomination that makes the claim even sillier.
Orun Oba Ado, which supposedly means the spiritual domain of the Oba of Benin, is among the earliest – actually, the earliest – significant archaeological site in Ife, with radiocarbon dates going back to the 6th century AD, from one of Frank Willett’s numerous archaeological excavations in Ife (see 1968. Radiocarbon Dates, WAAN, IX, 73. and 1969. New Radiocarbon Dates for Ife, WAAN, XI, both by Frank Willett. Or, see Archaeology in Nigeria(1969) by Thurstan Shaw if you can’t access those articles.) The only comparable significant archaeological features of Ife are the ancient walls also dated to the 6th century. So 6th century Ife had earthen walls/ramparts and an important foundational site that was already or was to become the "spiritual domain" of Benin?

So if you actually believe that Orun Oba Ado – the supposed spiritual domain of the Oba of Benin or the "the heaven of the kings of Benin"– which is at the heart of Ife near the Ife palace itself (by this I mean that is occupies a much more central location relative to the archaeological remains of Ife and the walls/ramparts of Ife, as contrasted with Ita Yemoo, for example, which is on the periphery) and is conspicuously close to Opa Oranmiyan, is most strongly tied to Benin, surely you can see the implications of this. Backfire #2. Once again, distortion bites the hand that feeds it .

You seem to be approaching this whole thing with a mindset that lots of stuff are made up. How is the Igbo angle able to support your argument?

What if archaeological findings suggest the Orun Oba Ado is the earliest of Ife acheaology?? How does that invalidate the Ooni of Ife's story that the heads of Benin Obas were buried there?? For all you know, that site could have been used for some rituals of some sort before the heads of the Obas were being buried there? What does archaeology say about the findings there? Did they find human fossils dating as old as 6th century (Please relay the archaeological facts comprehensively. I may not have the time to go through your suggested literatures)? Doesn't the fact that the site is close to the Opa Oranmiyan suggest to you that it could have a Benin story like Ooni relayed in his story? You need to do more to dispprove the Ooni's claim. Then, be careful how you accept carbon datings as facts, they can be misleading!

PhysicsHD:

3. You don’t seem to have grasped what a real burial of a king of Benin was like in olden times so let me give it to you in full detail and I hope you can use your immense knowledge of Ifa to divine the point at which the head is taken and enlighten the rest of us:

"Among others, there is in the kingdom of Benin an ancient custom, observed to the present day, that when the king dies, the people all assemble in a large field, in the centre of which is a very deep well, wider at the bottom than at the mouth. They cast the body of the dead king into this well, and all his friends and servants gather round, and those who are judged to have been most dear to and favoured by the king (this includes not a few, as all are anxious for the honour) voluntarily go down and keep him company. When they have done so, the people place a great stone over the mouth of the well, and remain by it day and night. On the second day a few deputies remove the stone, and ask those below what they know, and if any of them have already gone to serve the king; and the reply is, No. On the third day the same question is asked, and someone then replies that so-and-so, mentioning a name, has been the first to go, and so-and-so the second. It is considered highly praiseworthy to be the first, and he is spoken of with the greatest admiration by all the people, and considered happy and blessed. After four or five days all these unfortunate people die. When this is apparent to those above, since none reply to their questions, they inform their new king; who causes a great fire to be lit near the well, where numerous animals are roasted. These are given to the people to eat, and he with great ceremony is declared to be the true king, and takes the oath to govern well." - From the account of a 'Voyage from Lisbona to the island of San Thomé south of the Equator, described by a Portuguese pilot, and sent to his magnificence Count Rimondo della Torre, gentleman of Verona, and translated from the Portuguese into Italian', published in Giovanni Battista Ramusio (1550), and retranslated by Blake (1942), i, pp. 150-1. The account was written in about the year 1540, according to Blake, and 'the author may have been one of the scores of Portuguese pilots who at this time were familiar with the navigation from Lisbon to the island of São Thomé'. - From the book Nigerian Perspectives (2nd ed.) by Thomas Hodgkin

4. “No human remains or artifacts of Benin culture were found in six burials excavated at Arun-Oba-Ado”

The source for this conclusion being Frank Willett’s article in the book The African Iron Age, P. L. SHINNIE, (ed.)

Who says you cannot do all these on a corpse without its head?? Is there a part of these rituals that specifically spells how the head of the King is treated such that it invalidates the Ooni's claim of the head being sent to Ife?? Unfortunately, none of those buried with the King will return alive to come tell if they saw him without his head or not.

The Ooni cannot cook that story if it didn't happen. In my part of Yorubaland, the King's head and limbs are severed from him when he dies and they are used for rituals and buried in certain locations of the town. There is another kind of rituals on the main body that is buried within the palace. I am privileged to know this because I have royal blood (my grandfather actually told me). The Ooni may be right and you do not have sufficient facts to prove otherwise.

vinooh:

In Yorùbá mythology, Odùduwà was the son of Olorun, sent by him from heaven to create the earth. Descending from the heavens via a chain let down to Ile Ife, Odùduwà brought with him a cock, some soil and a calabash. After throwing the soil upon the waters, the cock then scratched on it to create the rest of dry land that would become the Earth's surface. Odùduwà subsequently became the first Ooni of Ife, and then sent his sons out to rule over all of the other Yorùbá kingdoms, which is why all royal Yorùbá lineages claim direct descent from Odùduwà and refer to the Ooni of Ife as primus

whether you agree or not oduduwa fall from heaven

True, that is what we were told but between you and I, that story is incredible.

This is the kind of story that the Oba of Benin (Solomon Akenzua - Omo N'Oba Erediauwa) exploited in an intelligent attempt to distort history.

X-factoria:

You seem to be approaching this whole thing with a mindset that lots of stuff are made up. How is the Igbo angle able to support your argument?

What if archaeological findings suggest the Orun Oba Ado is the earliest of Ife acheaology?? How does that invalidate the Ooni of Ife's story that the heads of Benin Obas were buried there?? For all you know, that site could have been used for some rituals of some sort before the heads of the Obas were being buried there? What does archaeology say about the findings there? Did they find human fossils dating as old as 6th century (Please relay the archaeological facts comprehensively. I may not have the time to go through your suggested literatures)? Doesn't the fact that the site is close to the Opa Oranmiyan suggest to you that it could have a Benin story like Ooni relayed in his story? You need to do more to dispprove the Ooni's claim. Then, be careful how you accept carbon datings as facts, they can be misleading!

1. My point about the Igbo angle is that the name of the archaeological site was exploited to make up a story. What if I claimed that Igbo Obameri is a reference to the forest (Igbo) king (Oba) Eri (the famed ancestor of the Nri kings) and that that was why it was named in his honor by his sons who later fanned out to found or dominate other kingdoms? There are a number of other important Yoruba sites I could concoct an Igbo myth for if I were so inclined.

2. My point was that Orun Oba Ado being a sacred spot designated specifically as the "spiritual domain of the Benin kings" actually leans more towards supporting Oba Erediauwa's version of the story given its extreme primacy. There are three phases of Ife from an archaeological standpoint, if you've ever read any of the literature on it: the pre-classical, classical, and post classical phases.

"The Classical period has been the focus of most archaeological investigations
in Ile–Ife. The period was characterized by the florescence of the production of
naturalistic terracotta brass/bronze sculptures, extensive construction of potsherd
pavements, and the construction of walls that delineated the urban space of Ile–Ife
among others (Eyo, 1974a; Garlake, 1974, 1977; Ozanne, 1969; Willett, 1967a).
The post-Classic period refers to the period after the sixteenth century when the
production of naturalistic terracotta and bronze sculptures of the elite and royal
patrons, and the construction of potsherd pavements, subsided.
There are indications that the ceramic attributes of the pre-Classic contexts
are different from those of the Classic and post-Classic periods in Ile–Ife. The
preliminary archaeological study at Orun Oba Ado site, for example, revealed
pre-Classic occupation levels dated to the sixth–ninth centuries, and the ceramics
from these levels are markedly different from the ones that were evident in
post–ninth century sites in Ile–Ife (Willett, 1973, p. 130). The morphological
and decorative attributes of ceramics that were established during the tenth and
eleventh centuries at Ita Yemoo continued during the twelfth–fifteenth centuries
in Woye Asiri and Obalara, and lasted until the sixteenth–eighteenth centuries in
Lafogido and Odo–Ogbe sites (Ogundiran, 2000, p. 362; Willett, 1973, pp. 126–
127). In other words, there was continuity in the ceramic forms and decoration
attributes at Ife from the early stage of the Classic to the post-Classic period." - ' Filling a Gap in the Ife–Benin Interaction Field (Thirteenth–Sixteenth Centuries AD): Excavations in Iloyi Settlement, Ijesaland,' by Akinwumi O. Ogundiran



Clearly, for the oldest important site in Ife to (later) be designated the spiritual domain of the Benin kings actually suggests an unusual reverence for that place by Ife and an unusual importance of that kingdom to Ife that all the other city-states that claim an Ife connection do not have.

My point about Opa Oranmiyan, is that the granite monolith was placed near the Orun Oba Ado (spiritual domain of the Benin kings) site, which precedes it by many centuries. I would have imagined that things were the other way around - a sacred place for Oranmiyan, and the Benin site placed next to it - if I were a partisan of the Ooni of Ife's story.

And no, no human remains were found:

http://books.google.com/books?id=_ZoPAQAAMAAJ&q=orun+oba+ado+human++6th+century&dq=orun+oba+ado+human++6th+century&hl=en&ei=fkp6TfqcMsWgtweh1ry6BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ

Who says you cannot do all these on a corpse without its head?? Is there a part of these rituals that specifically spells how the head of the King is treated such that it invalidates the Ooni's claim of the head being sent to Ife?? Unfortunately, none of those buried with the King will return alive to come tell if they saw him without his head or not.

This is my problem with your whole approach. The account, instead of just saying the "king is buried in the ground, a feast is held, and the new king is installed," decides to tell us in detail, with some degree of pity, what type of structure he's buried in, who goes into the well with him, what is placed over the well, how the king's dead body is monitored over multiple days, and yet you assert that these people in the grave are standing around a headless body or that the head is removed prior to this, but the European writer who is disapproving of and pitying the whole practice neglects to mention that extraordinary and even more pitiable fact! Then you continue to promulgate a fable with regard to head burying but then accuse others of ingeniously distorting history! Astounding.

The Ooni cannot cook that story if it didn't happen.

Did I say the Ooni made up the story? The Ooni didn't even write the speech he gave when Oba Erediauwa visited him in 1982. Instead, a history professor, Saburi Biobaku, prepared his speech for him. And you think the Ooni is sharp enough to make up the story? That's not even relevant anyway.

In my part of Yorubaland, the King's head and limbs are severed from him when he dies and they are used for rituals and buried in certain locations of the town. There is another kind of rituals  on the main body that is buried within the palace. I am privileged to know this because I have royal blood (my grandfather actually told me). The Ooni may be right and you do not have sufficient facts to prove otherwise.

1. In some parts of Yorubaland, the king ate the heart of his predecessor on the throne. This is well accepted by professional historians (Biobaku, Bradbury, others). Yet this was never a Benin practice. So asserting that Yoruba post-mortem mutilation of kings implies Benin post-mortem mutilation of kings is a silly approach to take.

2. The Ooni may be right? This isn't about whether there was post-mortem mutilation of prominent individuals in Yorubaland. That is actually already established and known, without reference to your "privileged" information.

3. The burden of proof of the claim actually lies on the Ooni and however many archaeologists he can sponsor, not me. Like I said before, the great Frank Willett already performed six excavations at Orun Oba Ado and found nothing relating to Benin.

4. I actually responded to your other statements, but it was originally blocked by the spam blocker. It has reappeared now though. My responses are on page 5 of this thread: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-392592.128.html#msg7880175

X-factoria:

True, that is what we were told but between you and I, that story is incredible.

This is the kind of story that the Oba of Benin (Solomon Akenzua - Omo N'Oba Erediauwa) exploited in an intelligent attempt to distort history.

Oba Erediauwa isn't the source of the Ekaladerhan -> Oduduwa story. Just for the record.

This debate is still going on? We know yorubas and Edos, like all others of our ethnic groups
are related one way or the other. That is the nature of humanity and its diversities. We are
all distant cousins, despite our different plumages, and tongues, which are themselves
objects of evolutions.

PhysicsMHD:

Oba Erediauwa isn't the source of the Ekaladerhan -> Oduduwa story. Just for the record.

assuming you're familiar with bini culture [doubtful, no offence], compare the name ekaladerhan to any bini name you know.

do you even see any similarities?

does it sound like any past or present bini name?

This debate is still going on?

i wonder.

After studying this issue, some facts are unanimously accepted as true.
The relations and revelations of these facts have to be explored.

Accepted Facts;

Oduduwa

ILe-Ife

Ifa.

Analysing facts;

Oduduwa =  Odu  d  uwa.

ODU-odu-uwa = oduduwa = ways of enrichments.
ODU-ukhun = odukhun = ways up.
ODU-ugbo = odugbo = ways to the farm.
ODA-ARO = odaro = ways forward.
ODE-EDO = odedo = ways to Edo.
ODI-iyeke =odiyeke = way to the back.
ODI-Ibarre = odibarre = way to front yard.
ODO-obo = odobo = doctor's side or place.
ODE-egbo= odegbo= ways to the forest.

Some examples of common oduduwa type of phrases in Edo(Bini);

Oduduwa------- The ways of enrichments,glory, and salvation.
Odudugie------ The ways to the festival.
Odudumawen------The ways of betterment.
Oduduma----- The ways to greatness
Odudugbo----- The ways to the farm.
Oduduwanwen---- The ways of growth and wisdom.

UWA:

wealth (offsprings,generations), enrichments, Health--glory/salvation.

So, Oduduwa = Ways, Teachings, or Verses on human glory and salvation.

[2] 
       ILE-IFE;

FE  =   free

Ife  = i am free = Freedom

Le = space, place,there, here, where.

ILE = home, place, where i dwell.

Therefore Ile-ife in Edo means, where i went for freedom. or where i ran for freedom or place of freedom.
So, Ile-ife = FREETOWN.

IFA:

FA = fade or expire.
IFA = won't fade or won't expire = preservation, perpetuity,and eternity.

Therefore,

IFA =preservations of human perpetuity or eternal preservation of life.

All these facts tells a very clear story. A rebellious prince, with his supporters and entourages, exiled
from their society, settled, and founded a place called FREETOWN. Obviously in defiance to where
he came from, that, they were not free.
In this freetown (ile-ife), he or they instituted the religion they already know from home to unite
and consolidate the larger communities.
All these facts analysed, are coded in EDO, so, they must be of Edo origin.

Taking advantages of their knowledge of the sacred orders, expanded the pantheons of the known gods.
And proliferated the Obaships.

Igbo: Ife - 'civilization', 'light'.

tpiah!:

assuming you're familiar with bini culture [doubtful, no offence], compare the name ekaladerhan to any bini name you know.

do you even see any similarities?

does it sound like any past or present bini name?

In the same vein what Yoruba name sound or share similarities with “Oranmiyan”? Past or present?

^Are you joking?

A name cannot be more Bini than 'Ekaladerhan'. It can only be referenced to the Bini language. The derivative is'tree'. A tree is called 'erhan'. A person well versed in herbal treatment is referred to as 'Obo Ikpakperhan'. And considering the fact that Ekaladerhan is said to have had knowledge of traditional medicine, which endeared him more to the people in his new abode,I am inclined to believe that the Binis are right about who this supposedly mystical Yoruba figure was.

Yes, in african languages, r and h follow each other.

I do not understand. Enlighten me ,please.

tpiah!:

assuming you're familiar with bini culture [doubtful, no offence], compare the name ekaladerhan to any bini name you know.

do you even see any similarities?

does it sound like any past or present bini name?

1. "Assuming your familiar with Bini culture"? What would being familiar with the whole of Benin culture have to do with knowing Bini names? Anybody could find out Bini names just by buying books on Benin names, such as Ja Belo-Osagie's book, which has literally 1000+ names in it and explanations of their meaning.

2. Your statement "no offence" is disingenuous at worst, and your mention of my "unfamiliarity" is irrelevant (see #1) at best,  If you want to say something come out and say it, and don't make irrelevant (to the discussion) comments about me. I already gave away much of my background in several posts across several threads in this forum: Americanized, science geek, history lover, and currently a college student. As a college student with access to many books on African history, art, etc. through one of the largest and best university libraries in America, and with access to history journal articles through my university's subscription to numerous journals, I took advantage of these resources and found out more about my people's history than I might have been able to do at some later time. I never claimed to be thoroughly enmeshed in Edo culture as I left Benin at an early age and (for now) only visit Benin during summer and winter breaks. I only started reading about any African history in my late teens after taking an interest in my grandfather after a story about him from my father and I never claimed to be an authority on Edo culture. In fact, in that thread "Benin art and architecture" that I started, I was specifically relying on amazonia, as someone with in-depth knowledge of the culture that goes beyond books, to inform me about other symbols used by priests, as I had no idea about such things. When you can find anywhere where I stated that I was a fountainhead of knowledge with regard to all things relating to Edo culture, let me know.



3.  You clearly don't know anything about Benin names. The "Eka/Ekha" part of Benin names is extremely common (Ekhaguere, Ekhator, etc.) and the "Erha" part is quite common (Erhabo, Erhauyi, Erhahon, etc.). Ekaladerhan is extremely Benin sounding.

4. Why don't you ask Jacob Egharevba's family, why it was that when Jacob Egharevba wrote the name down in 1934, the Benin people he talked with told him some (but not all) stuff about Ekaladerhan and why they didn't bring up another supposedly more "Bini-sounding" name? Your whole purpose was to imply that the name was recently made up, but you didn't even bother to find out either a) when the name was first written down or b) what Benin names really sound like.

tpiah!:

Yes, in african languages, r and h follow each other.

You know all African languages?

PhysicsMHD:

You know all African languages?

Of course not. She is just pulling it from her a.s.s, like she always does.


She is the female version of Becomrichn, in case you dont know.

I was specifically relying on amazonia

okey dokey then.

i have nothing against amazonia since he or she is yet to misbehave and i also enjoy his/her writings.

The "Eka/Ekha" part of Benin names is extremely common (Ekhaguere, Ekhator, etc.) and the "Erha" part is quite common (Erhabo, Erhauyi, Erhahon, etc.). Ekaladerhan is extremely Benin sounding.

not it's not.

and in the examples you quoted, the rh begins the name, not ends it. Find other similar ones with rh at the end and let me have a look at them.

Anybody could find out Bini names just by buying books on Benin names

true, but buying books often doesnt replace actual familiarity with the subject matter.

tpiah!:


okey dokey then.

i have nothing against amazonia since he or she is yet to misbehave and i also enjoy his/her writings.







not it's not.

and in the examples you quoted, the rh begins the name, not ends it. Find other similar ones with rh at the end and let me have a look at them.

"Osa" can be at the beginning or end of a name, if the name is about God, depending on what the name is saying, so erha can be at the beginning or end, depending on what the name is saying, so this is a silly objection.

Also, you conveniently ignored that the name was mentioned as early as 1934 (actually, earlier, but published then).

Your initial statement was also just about there not being any "past or present Bini name" that sound like Ekaladerhan, not about where the "erha" was placed.

Just to quiet you and end this diversionary argument, Aigberhae, Aiwererha, Okperhan, are Benin names. You can find them here: http://www.edoworld.net/Edo_names_dictionary.html (But there actually many more Benin names than are listed at that site, for the record. Ja Belo-Osagie's book on Benin names has a longer and better (somewhat more detailed explanations for many names) index of Benin names.)

^^ekaladerhan, as it is, does not sound bini.

check the names of past bini obas and princes.

let me know if you find anything similar.

i'm quite open to correction on this matter. No need to take it personally.

tpiah!:

^^ekaladerhan, as it is, does not sound bini.

check the names of past bini obas and princes.

let me know if you find anything similar.

I showed that Eka/Ekha was in Benin names. I showed that erha was in Benin names at the beginning and ending. And then you come here and say it doesn't sound Bini. What does it sound like? Vietnamese? Xhosa? Amharic? You also keep ignoring that the name has been in writing for over 70 years, yet nobody claimed it sounded non-Benin.

For the record, not even one Benin king's pre-coronation name would necessarily have been the same as their name in the king list (except for Eweka I, maybe), and only some of them are known.

Looking at the name Erediauwa, one could have constructed a similarly ludicrous argument that since there was no Benin king's name with "uwa" (prosperity) at the end of it, nor any king's name that is similar, nor is the name extremely common in Benin (how can it be, it's a ROYAL NAME! Whenever you see Benin people with last names like Akenzua, Eweka, etc. they are descended from royalty and princes who became actual kings, that's why their royal names seem like "common" Benin names; Oba Akenzua II had over 50 children, in fact.) that Erediauwa was therefore a recently made up kingly name. On the contrary,  before the current Oba ever took that name, R.E. Bradbury, while doing field work in Benin, found out from the Isekhure of Benin, who's duty it was to record the kinglist, and from other informants, that Erediauwa was the pre-coronation name of a 19th century Oba of Benin, Oba Osemwede (see Benin Studies).

I also don't see how you reconcile[b] that the majority of the Obas' names are extremely distinct from one another, but then claim that an Ekaladerhan like name should have been repeated as a king's name or be common amongst royals[/b]. That's the massive, gaping hole in your claim. Take another look at the kings list of Benin and it'll dawn on you that names like Esigie, Adolo, Ovonramwen, Eresoyen, Osemwede, etc. are neither repeated in king's list, nor are similar names to be found in the king list, nor are their names common among ordinary Binis. This applies to so many names on the list that I'm surprised you went with this argument.

Looking at the name Erediauwa, one could have constructed a similarly ludicrous argument that since there was no Benin king's name with "uwa" at the end of it

wrong wrong wrong!!!!!!!!

Esigie, Adolo, Ovonramwen, Eresoyen, Osemwede

so in what way do these names not seem bini?

tpiah!:

wrong wrong wrong!!!!!!!!

Why are you getting emotional?


My point still stands, there is no name that sounds like "Erediauwa" in the king's list. Not even one.