I read some threads created by some atheists on this website, where they claimed if there is God and He wants us to worship him, why didn't He force us to be worshipping Him by default. This is ur full reply in the Islamic way:

Allah says in His Book that He only created us so that we would worship Him, but we also find elsewhere in the Qur’an that He created us in order to test us. Is this not regarded as a contradiction?

There is no contradiction between being created to worship Allah and being created in order to be tested.

Worship in itself is a test from Allah, may He be exalted, to His slaves, so that He may make known who will believe and who will disbelieve, who will be disobedient and who will be obedient, then He will reward the doer of good for his good deeds and will punish the doer of evil for his evil deeds. Moreover, the reason for testing people is so as to see a person’s reaction at the time of calamity: Will he bear it with patience or will he panic? And it is to see his reaction when he is tested with blessings and calamities: will he give thanks or will he be grateful?

Perhaps because the questioner thought that there was a contradiction between the two matters, he thought that tests are limited to calamities, so whoever bears them with patience will attain reward, and whoever panics and shows ingratitude will incur a burden of sin and punishment.

This is indicative of a limited understanding of what is meant by tests and trials.

The correct understanding is that what is meant by tests and trials here is broader in meaning than calamity. Tests and trials include all the affairs and deeds of the son of Adam, and all the details of his life, for his life is a test, his good health is a test, his poor health is a test, his happiness is a test, his wealth is a test, his provision is a test, the environment in which he lives is a test, and his knowledge is a test. In all of that, Allah, may He be exalted, is testing this man and his behaviour to see whether he will follow the path of righteousness or the path of evildoing, whether he will obey the Most Gracious or will obey the Shaytaan. Hence Allah, may He be glorified and exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving”

[al-Mulk 67:2]

“And it is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days - and His Throne had been upon water - that He might test you as to which of you is best in deed”

[Hood 11:7]

“Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ”

[al-Maa’idah 5:48]

“And it is He who has made you successors upon the earth and has raised some of you above others in degrees [of rank] that He may try you through what He has given you. Indeed, your Lord is swift in penalty; but indeed, He is Forgiving and Merciful”

[al-An‘aam 6:165].

All these verses indicate that this test or trial is the reason for man’s creation; this test also includes the religious duties. So whoever carries out his duties towards his Lord – in all aspects of his life – will succeed, and whoever falls short will incur loss commensurate with his shortcomings.

Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

Allah, may He be exalted, has told us that the creation of the universe, death, life, and the making attractive of the earth and all that is on it are all for the purpose of test and trial, in order to test people as to which of them is best in deed, so that man’s deeds might be in accordance with what is pleasing to the Lord, may He be exalted, and thus will be in harmony with the purpose for which he was created and for which the universe was created, which is true servitude to Allah, which means loving Him and obeying Him. This is the best of deeds (as referred to in the verse quoted above), and such are the deeds that He loves and is pleased with.

End quote from Rawdat al-Muhibbeen (61).

Al-‘Allaamah Muhammad al-Ameen ash-Shinqeeti (may Allah have mercy on him) said, in his commentary on the verse (interpretation of the meaning),
“And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me” [adh-Dhaariyaat 51:56]:

What this verse means, “except to worship Me” is: so that I may enjoin on them that they should worship Me and I will test them; that is, I will test them with religious duties, then I will requite them for their deeds: if their deeds are good, then the outcome will be good, and if their deeds are evil, then the outcome will be bad.

The only reason why we say that this is what the verse means is because this is indicated by many clear verses in the Book of Allah. He, may He be exalted, clearly stated in several verses of His Book that He created them in order to test them as to which of them is best in deed, and that He will requite them for their deeds.

Allah, may He be exalted, says at the beginning of Soorat al-Kahf (interpretation of the meaning):

“Indeed, We have made that which is on the earth adornment for it that We may test them [as to] which of them is best in deed”

[al-Kahf 18:7].

These verses clearly state that the wisdom behind His creation of mankind is to test them as to which of them is best in deed, and this explains the word “except to worship Me” [adh-Dhaariyaat 51:56], because the best thing to explain the Qur’an is the Qur’an.

It is known that the outcome of the deeds referred to can only be achieved by rewarding the doer of good for his good deeds and requiting the doer of evil for his evil deeds. Hence Allah, may He be exalted, clearly stated that the reason for creating them, first of all, then resurrecting them later on, is to reward the doer of good for his good deeds and to requite the doer of evil for his evil deeds. This is seen in the verse at the beginning of Soorat Yoonus in which Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Indeed, He begins the [process of] creation and then repeats it that He may reward those who have believed and done righteous deeds, in justice. But those who disbelieved will have a drink of scalding water and a painful punishment for what they used to deny”

[Yoonus 10: 4].

And He says at the beginning of Soorat an-Najm (interpretation of the meaning):

“And to Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth - that He may recompense those who do evil with [the penalty of] what they have done and recompense those who do good with the best [reward]”

[an-Najm 53:31].

Allah, may He be exalted, denounced man for thinking that he would be left neglected, that is, without purpose, with no commands or prohibitions, and He stated that He did not cause man to pass through the stages of development (in the womb) until he became a human being, except to resurrect him after death and then to requite him for his deeds, as He, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):
[/b]
“Does man think that he will be left neglected?

Had he not been a sperm from semen emitted?

Then he was a clinging clot, and Allah] created [his form] and proportioned [him].

And made of him two mates, the male and the female.

Is not that [Creator] Able to give life to the dead”

[al-Qiyaamah 75:35-40].[/b]

I surely know that this will touch some hearts by Allah's leave. Insults are welcomed.

If he actually know the end from the beginning , then there will be no need for trial by error, except he love watching people suffer

Blakjewelry:
If he actually know the end from the beginning , then there will be no need for trial by error, except he love watching people suffer

Don't tell me you read it open minded. You need to read again!

cc: cyrusthegreat .... Agentofallah

1) On being created to be tested:
There is an inherent paradox in the idea of an omniscient being creating things in order to test them. For to test a thing is to attempt to determine its response to the tweaking of one or more controlled variables. An all-knowing being needs not test anything because they, by definition, already know all.

2) On being created to worship the creator:
I can't think of a more cowardly and simultaneously megalomaniacal thing to do. This just makes your god seem like they're suffering from self-esteem issues.
I don't know what you will make of a very intelligent person who creates a self-learning computer for the sole purpose of coming up with new ways to worship and adulate them, for the whole of the computer's existence. I know that I wouldn't think much of that person's intelligence. So how do you want me to accept this from a god that is infinitely more intelligent, presumably, than the most intelligent human?

I hope this op can appreciate the principles behind my rejection of their god. It has more to do with the senselessness of being created to worship and/or be tested by an omniscient being, than it has to do with the said contradiction between the presumed purposes of my creation.

AgentOfAllah:
1) On being created to be tested:
There is an inherent paradox in the idea of an omniscient being creating things in order to test them. For to test a thing is to attempt to determine its response to the tweaking of one or more controlled variables. An all-knowing being needs not test anything because they, by definition, already know all.

2) On being created to worship the creator:
I can't think of a more cowardly and simultaneously megalomaniacal thing to do. This just makes your god seem like they're suffering from self-esteem issues.
I don't know what you will make of a very intelligent person who creates a self-learning computer for the sole purpose of coming up with new ways to worship and adulate them, for the whole of the computer's existence. I know that I wouldn't think much of that person's intelligence. So how do you want me to accept this from a god that is infinitely more intelligent, presumably, than the most intelligent human?

I hope this op can appreciate the principles behind my rejection of their god. It has more to do with the senselessness of being created to worship and/or be tested by an omniscient being, than it has to do with the said contradiction between the presumed purposes of my creation.

Why do we have brain then? To think brother. You are even likening humn beings to a computer, machines are only programmed to do specific works unlike human being I can choose to do and undo. So God test us if we would use our brain to recognise him as the only Supreme God. Whereas He know from the beginning who will worship him and who won't, that is a trial.

iamgenius:
Why do we have brain then? To think brother.

So let's think together

You are even likening humn beings to a computer, machines are only programmed to do specific works unlike human being I can choose to do and undo.

Why do you think humans can "choose" to do and undo any more than self-learning computers can? I see choice as nothing but a useful illusion.

So God test us if we would use our brain to recognise him as the only Supreme God.

I have used my brain, and all it tells me is that such a god as yours doesn't exist!

Whereas He know from the beginning who will worship him and who won't, that is a trial.

If god knows from the beginning, who will/wont worship it, isn't the so-called trial an exercise in futility then? Given this admission of yours that god already knows it all, you especially, must agree with me that choice is therefore, an illusion. For if god, who created you, already knows all your choices, is it possible to surprise this god which an unexpected "choice"? If not, you haven't made any choice, you have just succumbed to the infallible prediction of your creator!

AgentOfAllah:
So let's think together

Why do you think humans can "choose" to do and undo any more than self-learning computers can? I see choice as nothing but a useful illusion.

I have used my brain, and all it tells me is that such a god as yours doesn't exist!

If god knows from the beginning, who will/wont worship it, isn't the so-called trial an exercise in futility then? Given this admission of yours that god already knows it all, you especially, must agree with me that choice is therefore, an illusion. For if god, who created you, already knows all your choices, is it possible to surprise this god which an unexpected "choice"? If not, you haven't made any choice, you have just succumbed to the infallible prediction of your creator!

Did U create yourself?

iamgenius:
Did U create yourself?

This question has nothing to do with the simple points I raised about the paradox of an omniscient god testing their creation or the insecurities of an omnipotent god demanding to be worshiped all the time.

That said, I'll indulge you, so no! I did not create myself. If the credit of my creation should go to anybody, it should be my parents.

iamgenius:
Did U create yourself?

lol... you just jumped all the points he raised without even attempting to refute them only to ask this senseless and irrelevant question

Before you, as a muslim, offers any form of opinion to an atheist you should first come to a conclusion with Christians and the other 4,000 numerous religions on which god is the true god and if it has a son or not

AgentOfAllah:

This question has nothing to do with the simple points I raised about the paradox of an omniscient god testing their creation or the insecurities of an omnipotent god demanding to be worshiped all the time.

That said, I'll indulge you, so no! I did not create myself. If the credit of my creation should go to anybody, it should be my parents.

And your parents created their sperm?

hahn:
Before you, as a muslim, offers any form of opinion to an atheist you should first come to a conclusion with Christians and the other 4,000 numerous religions on which god is the true god and if it has a son or not

We preach to all disbelievers.

frank317:


lol... you just jumped all the points he raised without even attempting to refute them only to ask this senseless and irrelevant question

I jumped to his level of understanding.

iamgenius:
And your parents created their sperm?

Actually, just one of them; my dad, his testicles to be precise, created sperms. The other, as you can imagine, was my mum, whose ovaries manufactured unfertilised eggs, one of which was penetrated by a sneaky little fast swimmer fashioned by the said testicles. That fast swimmer and my mum's nurturing host egg were the precursors to my eventual existence.

Thus far, it appears you're just happy to dwell on this tangential discussion, as long as it helps you evade responding to my rebuttals to your original argument; that is, being created to worship and to be tested by god. So I hope when you're done with this line of questioning, you can redress the absurdities I've highlighted in my original objections to your god argument. I prefer not to answer any more of your questions until you respond to me, as I have generously responded to you.

iamgenius:
We preach to all disbelievers.

Including christians?

AgentOfAllah,such an intelligent agent of a god that doesn't exist.I used to be scared of your moniker before I became irreligious,I pondered in my heart why will a man call himself an agent of Allah,if he is not an Islamic extremist tracking down blasphemers on nairaland.lol

But as time flew and my beliefs evolved,I read more of your posts and I found out that you are a freethinker and atheist.

You really served this so-called genius wisdom,that's if he will choose wisdom.Your responses are legendary.

iamgenius:
Did U create yourself?

Address his points ogbeni

At least he has agreed he was created by his parents. Did your god create itself?

iamgenius:
I jumped to his level of understanding.

He raised about three important point from your op, which u failed to address. Address them and stop trying to turn this thread into another circular argument like the thread spacetacular created.
Don't insult his intelligence by saying u are coming down to his level. He is obviously more intelligent than u and u are yet to give direct answer to his response.

stephenmorris:
AgentOfAllah,such an intelligent agent of a god that doesn't exist.I used to be scared of your moniker before I became irreligious,I pondered in my heart why will a man call himself an agent of Allah,if he is not an Islamic extremist tracking down blasphemers on nairaland.lol

But as time flew and my beliefs evolved,I read more of your posts and I found out that you are a freethinker and atheist.

You really served this so-called genius wisdom,that's if he will choose wisdom.Your responses are legendary.

His response are not only legendary, they are perfect. Always look out for his mentions on this section. Unfortunately he comes in once in a while like Johnny.

A more basic problem for me is you referring to the Quran as the word of Allah. To me it's just a book written by people as with every other book. Until this basic problem is resolved, going into the Quran is useless. And the so-called 'miracles' are easily debunked.

AgentOfAllah:

Actually, just one of them; my dad, his testicles to be precise, created sperms. The other, as you can imagine, was my mum, whose ovaries manufactured unfertilised eggs, one of which was penetrated by a sneaky little fast swimmer fashioned by the said testicles. That fast swimmer and my mum's nurturing host egg were the precursors to my eventual existence.

Thus far, it appears you're just happy to dwell on this tangential discussion, as long as it helps you evade responding to my rebuttals to your original argument; that is, being created to worship and to be tested by god. So I hope when you're done with this line of questioning, you can redress the absurdities I've highlighted in my original objections to your god argument. I prefer not to answer any more of your questions until you respond to me, as I have generously responded to you.

touche! Iamgenius, I've bitten-off my fingernails while waiting for your rebuttals to the points this gentleman raised, I hope I won't pluck-off all my eyelids before you do.
I do tell theists who come here to win atheists over that this Religion section is hot. ...always come in nake.d.
...or prapared.

AgentOfAllah:

Actually, just one of them; my dad, his testicles to be precise, created sperms. The other, as you can imagine, was my mum, whose ovaries manufactured unfertilised eggs, one of which was penetrated by a sneaky little fast swimmer fashioned by the said testicles. That fast swimmer and my mum's nurturing host egg were the precursors to my eventual existence.

Thus far, it appears you're just happy to dwell on this tangential discussion, as long as it helps you evade responding to my rebuttals to your original argument; that is, being created to worship and to be tested by god. So I hope when you're done with this line of questioning, you can redress the absurdities I've highlighted in my original objections to your god argument. I prefer not to answer any more of your questions until you respond to me, as I have generously responded to you.

You talked abt creating somtin and wanting the created thing to worship the creator. What I mean by worship here is not just praising and adoring our creator alone. If God wants us to worshio him only, He would have created us in a state of constant worship and we wont be able to do anything else.
The right way to phrase this relationship of worship is that God is entitled to and deserves all acts of worship to be directed to him and no one else does.Islam considers that being good to one's parents is an act of worship. How can this benefit God? The real need for worshipping God is in US humans.
Islam doesn’t view ‘spirituality’ separately from everyday activities. In Islam everything is ‘spiritual’ because all actions must be in accordance with God’s pleasure. This view comes from the Islamic creed and the Muslim’s understanding of tawhid (the oneness of God).

The concept of worship in Islam is more inclusive than other religions. It includes all the activities of life not just the familiar acts of worship like prayer, fasting and charity. For example, kind treatment to the neighbours, the wife, friends and work mates is a form of worship if it was done to please God. The list goes on to include many other things like sleeping, feeding your children or even having a sexual intercourse with your spouse. All these are acts of worship in Islam. Other religions are mere personal relations between Man and whatever deity is worshipped. I slam is a whole way of life. Sorry for late reply, I am very busy.

Another way of answering this question is to understand that our knowledge is fragmentary and finite, so we will never be able to fathom the totality of God’s wisdom. As previously mentioned, if we comprehended all of God’s wisdom, it would mean we would become Gods or that God would be like us. Both are impossibilities. Hence, the very fact that there may be no answer to this question indicates the transcendence of God’s knowledge. In summary, He created us to worship Him due to His eternal wisdom, we just cannot comprehend why.

A practical way of looking at this question is explained in the following illustration. Imagine you were on the edge of a cliff and someone pushed you into the ocean below. This water is infested with sharks. However, the one who pushed you gave you a waterproof map and an oxygen tank to be able to navigate via safe areas in order to reach a beautiful tropical island where you will stay forever in bliss. If you were intelligent, you would use the map and reach the safety of the island. However, being stuck on the question Why did you throw me in here? will probably mean you are eaten by the sharks. For the Muslim, the Qur’an and Prophetic traditions are the map and the oxygen tank. They tell us how to navigate the path of life safely. We have to know, love and obey God, and dedicate all acts of worship to Him alone. Fundamentally we have the choice of harming our own self by ignoring this message, or embracing the love and mercy of God by accepting it.

stephenmorris:
AgentOfAllah,such an intelligent agent of a god that doesn't exist.I used to be scared of your moniker before I became irreligious,I pondered in my heart why will a man call himself an agent of Allah,if he is not an Islamic extremist tracking down blasphemers on nairaland.lol

But as time flew and my beliefs evolved,I read more of your posts and I found out that you are a freethinker and atheist.

You really served this so-called genius wisdom,that's if he will choose wisdom.Your responses are legendary.

Lol...An Islamic extremist, I'm not! But I most certainly am tracking down blasphemers on Nairaland. I get along with most of them

AgentOfAllah:

Lol...An Islamic extremist, I'm not! But I most certainly am tracking down blasphemers on Nairaland. I get along with most of them

We never finish this nah.

you know atheist has just one problem..... problem of thinking. their phone and cloth have no manufacturer..

alfredolski:
you know atheist has just one problem..... problem of thinking. their phone and cloth have no manufacturer..

Like say they have no brain.

The Koran is NOT the word of any divine being. It is a book written by ancient Arabs who want people to share their imaginations, beliefs and the system they created. Mohammed and his cronies wrote down the Koran. It has nothing to do with divinity. It is completely man made.

First of all, since you have failed to address the paradox of an omniscient god "testing" us, ostensibly to find out what it already knows about us, I'll assume you have tacitly acknowledged that this was a problematic argument. As such, I'll not torture you any further with this conundrum of yours.

Moving on:

iamgenius:

You talked abt creating somtin and wanting the created thing to worship the creator. What I mean by worship here is not just praising and adoring our creator alone. If God wants us to worshio him only, He would have created us in a state of constant worship and we wont be able to do anything else.

Okay, so here it seems you're arguing that since we don't automatically default to worshiping god, the act of worship might not be the purpose of our existence after all. I especially applaud your use of the conditional statement. There's yet hope that your logical circuit is still functional.

The right way to phrase this relationship of worship is that God is entitled to and deserves all acts of worship to be directed to him and no one else does.

You make it sound like worship is a compulsion, is it compulsory to worship?

Islam considers that being good to one's parents is an act of worship. How can this benefit God? The real need for worshipping God is in US humans.

I don't need to worship a god to be good to my parents, so I find no need to worship at all.

Islam doesn’t view ‘spirituality’ separately from everyday activities. In Islam everything is ‘spiritual’ because all actions must be in accordance with God’s pleasure. This view comes from the Islamic creed and the Muslim’s understanding of tawhid (the oneness of God).

The concept of worship in Islam is more inclusive than other religions. It includes all the activities of life not just the familiar acts of worship like prayer, fasting and charity.

Yes, I know what Islam teaches, I just don't accept it as important to my existence.

For example, kind treatment to the neighbours, the wife, friends and work mates is a form of worship if it was done to please God. The list goes on to include many other things like sleeping, feeding your children or even having a sexual intercourse with your spouse. All these are acts of worship in Islam. Other religions are mere personal relations between Man and whatever deity is worshipped. I slam is a whole way of life.

I am capable of all these things without the slightest desire (or need) to please a god. Recalling your own logical statement above, if god wanted me to dedicate these activities to its worship, it could simply have put the desire in me to do so. Without such a compelling desire, it is not clear why I should dedicate my mundane activities to god's pleasure.

Another way of answering this question is to understand that our knowledge is fragmentary and finite, so we will never be able to fathom the totality of God’s wisdom. As previously mentioned, if we comprehended all of God’s wisdom, it would mean we would become Gods or that God would be like us. Both are impossibilities. Hence, the very fact that there may be no answer to this question indicates the transcendence of God’s knowledge. In summary, He created us to worship Him due to His eternal wisdom, we just cannot comprehend why.

I agree that our knowledge is finite. So, it begs to be known how, with your finite knowledge, you've deduced that a god exists, wants to be worshiped, has selected a 5th century desert Arab to teach the whole world how to worship it, codified these instructions in a book of a particular language (never mind the thousands of other languages in existence), and wants us all to dedicate something as private as our sex lives in worship. Forgive me, but this seems extremely improbable and petty to the extent that I consider your god story a total joke. If this god wants to be known and worshiped, then it should stop hiding behind a 1400 yr old book, simply come out and make its intentions clear in languages we all can understand. This is what I can cope with, not vague speculations about transcendent knowledge that my finite mind "just cannot comprehend".

A practical way of looking at this question is explained in the following illustration. Imagine you were on the edge of a cliff and someone pushed you into the ocean below. This water is infested with sharks. However, the one who pushed you gave you a waterproof map and an oxygen tank to be able to navigate via safe areas in order to reach a beautiful tropical island where you will stay forever in bliss. If you were intelligent, you would use the map and reach the safety of the island. However, being stuck on the question Why did you throw me in here? will probably mean you are eaten by the sharks.

This is not at all practical, nor is it a useful illustration. If I need a map and an oxygen tank to get to this blissful Island, that means the body of shark infested water is vast enough that I will be eaten before I ever get to the Island anyway. Given such vast space, it is impossible to outswim hungry man-eating sharks, nor will a waterproof map and an oxygen tank make for effective defensive tools against them. But yes, you're probably right that I'd desperately try to locate this Island for the lack of other options. Although, in the unlikely event that I make it out alive, I'd still seek revenge against the muthafvcking basterd who pushed me into shark infested water without my consent. Thankfully, life is not a shark infested water and it affords me plenty of options.

For the Muslim, the Qur’an and Prophetic traditions are the map and the oxygen tank. They tell us how to navigate the path of life safely. We have to know, love and obey God, and dedicate all acts of worship to Him alone. Fundamentally we have the choice of harming our own self by ignoring this message, or embracing the love and mercy of God by accepting it.

Oh lawd! I should, at this point, amend my concession, because If I had the Qur'an and prophetic traditions (I imagine you mean ahadith) as my map and oxygen tank to navigate a treacherous sea, I'd most probably just give up before attempting to survive! These documents are either riddled with vague nonsense, contradictions or scientific inaccuracies. In all cases, a combination of at least, two of those! You get it twisted my friend, you bring enormous harm to yourself by embracing the poisonous trash in those documents.