I say Amen, to the prophet's prayer!

God talking to his mother!( the mother of God )

[John. 2:4]
He said to Mary, "Woman, what have I to do with you." (I only quote here what
I believe not because I believe that Jesus the great prophet of God was more
polite and kind to his mother than what the Bible shows.)
[Math. 12:47]
Then one said unto Jesus, "Behold, your mother and brethren stand without,
desiring to talk to you" but he answered and said, "WHO IS MY MOTHER? AND
WHO ARE MY BRETHREN?"

ignorance is a disease.
The question is how many did Christ or his disciples kill if indeed you understand the scriptures.

When he said hate mkother he meant you cannot prefer anything to him but you wouldn't know that.
Of course today those words are fulfilled,you see people ostracised for loving Christ.

read the comparison of that pedophilic prophet of yours with that of a sinless savior,there is no comparison

drbelloim:

God talking to his mother!( the mother of God )

[John. 2:4]
He said to Mary, "Woman, what have I to do with you." (I only quote here what
I believe not because I believe that Jesus the great prophet of God was more
polite and kind to his mother than what the Bible shows.)
[Math. 12:47]
Then one said unto Jesus, "Behold, your mother and brethren stand without,
desiring to talk to you" but he answered and said, "WHO IS MY MOTHER? AND
WHO ARE MY BRETHREN?"

The ignorance runs deeper than I thought,Christs main mission was to world and he was not going to let family issues disrupt that.
You are not his so you can never understand his words.
Read the comparison again and answer me on those

@babyosisi

"THE WORDS I SPEAK UNTO YOU ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE"

The spirit that these people have is not the Zoe they have not known that spirit however you will be wasting your time and feeding their Ego when you continue to argue.

Atimes one could loose the grace that was freely given. We Dont win over by UNENDING Arguments. He has read our arguments and he knows your position very well.

I think we should war the evils that fights within our faith because there is great crisis in the House of the Lord. There is no CRISIS in their house because SATAN CANNOT CAST OUT SATAN, though he is the father of confusion.

If however they come with a docile spirit do them the honors to preach to them. We can never low the standard because Our God Jesus will never lower the standard.

If I show you some videos of preachers that have been possesed of the devil you will weep. Let us teach young Christians from within the house of the Lord like Jesus did for that is where the Judgment starts.

May the love of our lord Jesus Christ strengthen you Amen!!!!


Selah

Backslider:

@babyosisi

"THE WORDS I SPEAK UNTO YOU ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE"

The spirit that these people have is not the Zoe they have not known that spirit however you will be wasting your time and feeding their Ego when you continue to argue.

Atimes one could loose the grace that was freely given. We Dont win over by UNENDING Arguments. He has read our arguments and he knows your position very well.

I think we should war the evils that fights within our faith because there is great crisis in the House of the Lord. There is no CRISIS in their house because SATAN CANNOT CAST OUT SATAN, though he is the father of confusion.

If however they come with a docile spirit do them the honors to preach to them. We can never low the standard because Our God Jesus will never lower the standard.

If I show you some videos of preachers that have been possesed of the devil you will weep. Let us teach young Christians from within the house of the Lord like Jesus did for that is where the Judgment starts.

May the love of our lord Jesus Christ strengthen you Amen!!!!


Selah

Bless you my brother.

@babyosis

I will respond to your posts according to how they were posted

1.

Posted by babyosis
Muhammad like the womanizer Solomon must have been reciting those same words in bed with his infant lover over and over again,even as the koran was being revealed

Your argument holds no water here. Do you have any proof of his (Muhammed saw) reciting those obnoxious words in the Quran?


2.

You said christians are the followers of jesus. Can you tell me the meaning of christianity? I know you will tell me that it means those following Jesus. If Christianity means those following jesus and jesus was also a christian, do we say that jesus was following jesus? Was Jesus a christian? We all know that all the prophets were mentioned as being Muslims in the Quran and also the word 'Islam' was used. Can you show me anywhere in the Nt during Jesus' time, where we will find the word 'christian' as being used by Jesus to refer to those following him. Bring me from the bible the word 'christian' used by jesus.
Can Jesus be compared with Muhammed (saw)?


3.

Have you read the book? (100 most influential men) by H. Hart. He placed Muhammed first and Jesus not 2nd but 3rd.


Let me now attend comparison one after the other.

Posted by babyosis
Muhammad was the prophet of war; Christ is the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6-7.

Was Jesus really prince of peace?

Lets read:

Zephaniah 2:12-15

"You Ethiopians will also be slaughtered by my sword," says the LORD. And the LORD will strike the lands of the north with his fist. He will destroy Assyria and make its great capital, Nineveh, a desolate wasteland, parched like a desert. The city that once was so proud will become a pasture for sheep and cattle. All sorts of wild animals will settle there. Owls of many kinds will live among the ruins of its palaces, hooting from the gaping windows. Rubble will block all the doorways, and the cedar paneling will lie open to the wind and weather. This is the fate of that boisterous city, once so secure. "In all the world there is no city as great as I," it boasted. But now, look how it has become an utter ruin, a place where animals live! Everyone passing that way will laugh in derision or shake a defiant fist

Ezekiel 9:5-7
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."

Mathew 10 v 34:
Do not think that I have come to make peace on earth? I have not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father and a daughter against her mother.

Luke 12 v 49:
I came to cast fire upn the earth, and would that it were already kindled. Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division; for from hencefortgh in one house there will be five divided, theee against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son, and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against her mother.




ISAIAH 9 V6

Most christians think that this prophesy was for Jesus, but we will read on to know if it was really for him.

Isaiah 9:6 - KJV
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Isaiah 9:6 - LITV
"For a Child is born; to us a Son is given; and the government is on His shoulder; and His name is called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Let me add from 7: of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom, to order it and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of host will perform this.

Having done the above, let me break the verse for you


Government shall be on his shoulder

Did jesus ever rule his people? He was never allowed.
Was he king?

John 18v33-37: , then pilate entered into the judgment hall again and called jesus and said unto him, 'art thou the king of the jews'? Jesus answered, "my KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD. if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight that I should not be delivered to the jews BUT NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM THENCE.Pilate therefore said unto him, 'art thou A KING THEN?' Jesus answered, 'thou sayest that I am a king,

He was never king and he never ruled, as a result, the above prophesy is not for him.


Wonderful

He was not the only one to be accorded the word 'wonderful' .All prophets are wonderful. They all came with miracles and we learnt that Jesus said he couldnt do anything by himself

John 5v30: , i can of mine do nothing.

So he is not the wonderful referred to here.


Counsellor/Comforter

The prophesy is not for him as we read jesus telling his disciples that he needed to go so as allow room for the COMFORTER TO COME. (john 16v5-7).

He was never allowed to talk, as a result of this, he told them that it was necessary for him to go so that the comforter would come (the last prophet) and 'when he come, he would tell you all things and guide you into all truth'.
Jesus was never a counsellor/Comforter.


The Mighty God

He was not the only one being referred to as God. Mind you, small 'g' is supposed to be used in John 1v1 but never mind I will still talk on that. Moses too was made god for Pharaoh. If you don't know, one of the thieves name crucificted together with jesus is called JESUS BARABAS. meaning that he was another God. Jesus was supposed to be named Immanuel, but was named Jesus instead. Have you tried finding the meaning of the word 'jesus'?.Jesus was never a God and will never be. Moses too was referred to as god for Pharaoh.



The Prince of Peace."

Is jesus really prince of peace? lets read the below verses

Mathew 10v34: 'do not think that I HAVE COME TO MAKE PEACE ON EARTH? I HAVE NOT COME TO BRING PEACE BUT A SWORD!!!!!!. For I have come to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER.

Luke 12v49: ' I CAME TO CAST FIRE UPON THE EARTH AND WOULD THAT IT WERE ALREADY KINDLED, DO YOU THINK THAT I HAVE COME TO GIVE PEACE ON EARTH? NO. I TELL YOU, BUT RATHER DIVISION FOR FROM HENCEFORTH in one house there will be five divided, three against two, and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother.

hmmmmmmmmmm. Did you read all that. So the above prophesy couldnt have been for Jesus.


Posted by babyosis
Muhammad promoted persecution against the "infidels"; Christ forgave and converted the chief persecutor (1 Timothy 1:13-15).


Ok, lets see God Jesus' position on infidel. I will give you just two or three verses out of very many.

Let us look at Deuteronomy 13:6-9

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."

Also let us look at Deuteronomy 17:3-5

"And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, , and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."

2 Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."



Posted by babyosis
Muhammad was the taker of life; Christ was the giver of life (John 10:27-28).[

Lets read if Jesus has never taken any life

Ezekiel 9:5-7

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."

Genesis 38 v 7; But Er, Judah's first born was wicked in the sight of the Lord and the Lord killed him.



Posted by babyosis
Muhammad and his fellow warriors murdered thousands; Christ murdered none but saved many (compare John 12:48).

Same as in the above. I have given you verses where he killed

Posted by babyosis
Muhammad's method was COMPULSION; Christ's aim was voluntary CONVERSION (Acts 3:19).

No sister. Read: Quran 2 v 256; , ,, There is no compulsion in religion. Have you read or being told how christianity was spread?


Posted by babyosis
Muhammad practiced FORCE; Christ preached FAITH (John 6:29, 35).

Let me have the proof. Didnt you read in your bible that faith without work is useless and that unless your work exceed that of the scribes and the pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Posted by babyosis
Muhammad was a WARRIOR; Christ is a DELIVERER (Col. 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:10).

Are you referring to God of the OT or that of the NT? Clarify please.


Posted by babyosis
Muhammad conquered his enemies with the sword; Christ conquered his enemies with another kind of sword, the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God (Hebrews 4:12; Acts 2:37).

Havent you been reading my posts? There is nowhere in the Quran where the word 'sword' is used but freely used in the bible. Read one of the verses where God jesus killed and ordered killing of people.



Posted by babyosis
Muhammad said to the masses, "Convert or die!"; Christ said, "Believe and live!" (John 6:47; 11:25-26).

Let me have the verses. Maybe you are referring to apostasy. Allah did not say we should kill whoever turn away from Islam. Lets weigh the two books:

Quran 4 7 v 25: verily, those who have turned back (have apostatized) as dibeliebers after the guidance has been manifested to them – satan has beautified for them (their false hopes) and Allah prolonged their term

V 26: this is because they said to those who hate what Allah has sent down, ‘we will obey yu in part of the matter’. But Allah knows their secret.

Quran 2 v 217: …. And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter and they will be the dwellers of the fire. They will abide therein forever.

Quran 3 v 85: and whosoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him and in the hereafter, he will be one of the losers.

Quran 3 v 91 : verily, those who disbelieved and died while they were disbelievers, the (whole) earth full of gold will not be accepted from anyone of them even if they offered it as a ransom. For them is a painful torment and they will have no helpers.

Quran 5 v 54: O ye who believe! Whoever from among you turns back from his religion (Islam), Allah will bring a people whom He will love and they will love Him; humble towards the believers, stern towards the disbelievers, fighting in the way of Allah and never feat of the blame of the blamers. That is the Grace of Allah which he bestows on whom He wills. And Allah is All- Sufficient for His creatures’ needs, All- Knower

Lets go into the bible:

Let us look at Deuteronomy 13:6-9

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."

Also let us look at Deuteronomy 17:3-5

"And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, , and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."

2 Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."



Posted by babyosis
Muhammad was swift to shed blood (Romans 3:15-17); Christ shed His own blood for the salvation of many (Ephesians 1:7).


What blood r u referring to? Was he killed or crucified? Hope u know the thread on 'was jesus crucified' is still on and the questions are still on. I wonder how you will be able to defend the signs of jonah when you have not been able to defend anointing and other verses.



Posted by babyosis
Muhammad preached "Death to the infidels!"; Christ prayed "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).

Read the verses above for worse stories from the bible.



Posted by babyosis
Muhammad declared a holy war (Jihad) against infidels; Christ achieved a holy victory on Calvary's cross (Colossians 2:14-15) and His followers share in that victory (John 16:33).

Why saying he was killed when you couldnt defend it? I can see that you dont understand what Jihad is. Jesus was never killed nor crucified. Jesus declared holy war on innocent souls, women, children, animals, etc and you claimed he was a prince of peace.



Posted by babyosis
Muhammad constrained people by conquest; Christ constrained people by love (2 Corinthians 5:14).

Same issue. Havent you read the verses I gave you on apostasy? Jesus' killing outnumbered that of Muhammed.


I will continue on the remaining later.

Take care

I think dis religion segment is a lil bit funny, only few ones are making sense, and others are just turning d bible upside down nd giving it irrational interpretations, I think dat's why dere's a bible. If whoeva started this thread is inquisitive he should read d bible, All this is not makin sense!

It will never make sense to those that are inclined to falsehood and are not ready to verify what they have been carrying and preaching all these while. I dont want your case to be like that of Hosea 4 v 6.

Bring out a verse that has been wrongly interpreted.

The person is really inquisitive having read the bible and still reading the bible, comes up with some astonishing bible stories, disturbing stories in the bible, pornography in the bible, killing spree in the bible, contradictions, plagiarism, paganism in christianity etc.

So am still reading the bible and will continue reading. Thank God I have not been using the Quran for the topic 'was jesus crucified" but your own bible. If I have been using it, you people would have been saying lots of things.

I have just started and only got to the issue of anointing. I am looking forward to what you will say when we get to other verses in your same bible. A christian even said that I have been lifting from websites, that is his own belief. I dont argue in debate that lacks proof, evidence and facts. We shall see if babs has been reading the bible, lifting from sites or turning verses upside down.

@babs787,

babs787:

It will never make sense to those that are inclined to falsehood and are not ready to verify what they have been carrying and preaching all these while. I don't want your case to be like that of Hosea 4 v 6.

I couldn't help laughing out loud on reading that line, because it seemed so naturally applicable to you. Most of the verses you tried to twist will never make sense to you that are inclined to falsehood and are not ready to verify what you have been carrying and preaching all these while. Indeed, we don't want your case to be like that of Hosea 4 v 6.

babs787:

Bring out a verse that has been wrongly interpreted.

All the verses you quoted above, particularly Isaiah 9:6.

babs787:

The person is really inquisitive having read the bible and still reading the bible, comes up with some astonishing bible stories, disturbing stories in the bible, pornography in the bible, killing spree in the bible, contradictions, plagiarism, paganism in christianity etc.

Please keep reading the Bible, and then you will see that all your accusations and vexations are quite suited to the Qur'an itself.

babs787:

So am still reading the bible and will continue reading. Thank God I have not been using the Quran for the topic 'was jesus crucified" but your own bible. If I have been using it, you people would have been saying lots of things.

Even if you use the Qur'an, your argument will run into a brick wall; because the Qur'an does not tell you what it does not know - and to that point excatly, neither Muhammad nor the Qur'an knew anything about the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

babs787:

I have just started and only got to the issue of anointing. I am looking forward to what you will say when we get to other verses in your same bible. A christian even said that I have been lifting from websites, that is his own belief. I don't argue in debate that lacks proof, evidence and facts. We shall see if babs has been reading the bible, lifting from sites or turning verses upside down.

Na today? Several times I have supplied the weblink from which you lift your "questions". The only difference is that you dressed them up a little and called them your own.

@stimulus




I couldn't help laughing out loud on reading that line, because it seemed so naturally applicable to you. Most of the verses you tried to twist will never make sense to you that are inclined to falsehood and are not ready to verify what you have been carrying and preaching all these while. Indeed, we don't want your case to be like that of Hosea 4 v 6.

Na wa o. Truth will always be bitter. I haver verified while in the darkness and am telling you now that there is no salvation for you unless you are a muslim



All the verses you quoted above, particularly Isaiah 9:6.

Let me have your own interpretation of Isaiah 9 v 6.



Please keep reading the Bible, and then you will see that all your accusations and vexations are quite suited to the Qur'an itself.

Can we compare the chapters, verses, stories etc in the two books?


Even if you use the Qur'an, your argument will run into a brick wall; because the Qur'an does not tell you what it does not know - and to that point excatly, neither Muhammad nor the Qur'an knew anything about the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Why arguing what you failed in defending. your bible never supported the crucifixion and there is nowhere in the OT crucifixion was mentioned.


Na today? Several times I have supplied the weblink from which you lift your "questions". The only difference is that you dressed them up a little and called them your own.


Thats your belief and you are entitled to your opinion. So the links have been providing me with all the verses.

@babs787,

babs787:


I couldn't help laughing out loud on reading that line, because it seemed so naturally applicable to you. Most of the verses you tried to twist will never make sense to you that are inclined to falsehood and are not ready to verify what you have been carrying and preaching all these while. Indeed, we don't want your case to be like that of Hosea 4 v 6.

Na wa o. Truth will always be bitter. I haver verified while in the darkness and am telling you now that there is no salvation for you unless you are a muslim

If you want to know that salvation in Islam is NOT guaranteed, then I'll be willing to help you see that in many instances. Muhammad did NOT know exactly what would be the fate of Muslims - and there are references for that, which makes one wonder about the weak position of the so-called salvation you're here posing up for.

babs787:

All the verses you quoted above, particularly Isaiah 9:6.

Let me have your own interpretation of Isaiah 9 v 6.

I have discussed this in several instances; and you may follow some of them on this thread: Jesus: The Son Of God, Or God?

Bottomline is that Isaiah 9:6 clearly points to the Messiah, and declares in that verse that He is God.

babs787:

Please keep reading the Bible, and then you will see that all your accusations and vexations are quite suited to the Qur'an itself.

Can we compare the chapters, verses, stories etc in the two books?

We've done that several times, and my statement stands as is.

babs787:

Even if you use the Qur'an, your argument will run into a brick wall; because the Qur'an does not tell you what it does not know - and to that point excatly, neither Muhammad nor the Qur'an knew anything about the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Why arguing what you failed in defending. your bible never supported the crucifixion and there is nowhere in the OT crucifixion was mentioned.

Oh yes, the Bible speaks several times of the crucifixion - Psalm 22:16; Zach. 12:10; Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:33; John 19:37; 20:25-29. So, which Bible have you been reading to have made your denial of "your bible never supported crucifixion?"

babs787:

Na today? Several times I have supplied the weblink from which you lift your "questions". The only difference is that you dressed them up a little and called them your own.

Thats your belief and you are entitled to your opinion. So the links have been providing me with all the verses.

Yep, you've always dressed the articles on those links, rank-xeroxed the verses, and then pretend them as you own - which is worse than plagiarism.

wow! babs .u like rap music, u been raping on this page or somein, i dont care if there is a boook of babs or whatever, if thats what they teach u in the moski, that explains why yall are violent.All i know is that Jesus christ died for my sins, wHO CARES abt the was he died? all i know is that he died for my sin and guess what ? he is coming back, JESUS IS LORD, take that to the bank!!!!!

@stimulus

[color=#990000]If you want to know that salvation in Islam is NOT guaranteed, then I'll be willing to help you see that in many instances. Muhammad did NOT know exactly what would be the fate of Muslims - and there are references for that, which makes one wonder about the weak position of the so-called salvation you're here posing up for.[/color]

My brother, if you are not a muslim, nothing for you, there is nothing as sweet as being a muslim. Was Jesus a christian?

Quran 3 v 85: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter, he will be in the ranks of those who have lost.

Quran 3 v 91;Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in th Ayat (proofs, evidences, signs, revelations etc) of Allah, then surely, Allah is swift in caling to account.

Quran 2 v 277: Truly, those who believe and do deeds of righteousness and perform As-Salat and give Zakat, they will have their reward with their Lord. On them shall be no fear , nor shall they grieve.

I have discussed this in several instances; and you may follow some of them on this thread: Jesus: The Son Of God, Or God?

There is something I missed when I wasnt around but when the time comes, we will re-address it

[color=#990000]Bottomline is that Isaiah 9:6 clearly points to the Messiah, and declares in that verse that He is God.[/color]

I have provided rebuttal, its left for you to bring it out for me where it refers to Jesus. You may bring the verse out if you so wish and we will treat it together again.


Oh yes, the Bible speaks several times of the crucifixion - Psalm 22:16; Zach. 12:10; Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:33; John 19:37; 20:25-29. So, which Bible have you been reading to have made your denial of "your bible never supported crucifixion?"

Brother, you keep nailing yourself. Why not do us proud by posting the verses for people to see. Let me have it from the verses where it was prophesised that he would be crucified. from the OT. I have been reading same bible as yours and it never supported crucifixion.


Yep, you've always dressed the articles on those links, rank-xeroxed the verses, and then pretend them as you own - which is worse than plagiarism.

Your belief



@MP007

wow! babs .u like rap music, u been raping on this page or somein, i don't care if there is a boook of babs or whatever, if thats what they teach u in the moski, that explains why yall are violent.All i know is that Jesus christ died for my sins, wHO CARES about the was he died? all i know is that he died for my sin and guess what ? he is coming back, JESUS IS LORD, take that to the bank!!!!!


Are you referring to rapper like tupac, easy east, Krs 1, Rakheem etc. You should have been Mp 3 . I do the rap and you do the playing . Which bank should I take it, BOA, Barclays or , ?

@babs787,

Thanks for your reposte. This is my response:

babs787:

My brother, if you are not a muslim, nothing for you, there is nothing as sweet as being a muslim.

Okay, I can understand that you're repeating Muhammad's claims by rote without having examined ALL he said and taught. If anyone follows the adventures of Muhammad, would one call that "sweet"? I give you just one: what is sweet about "turning in repentance to Allah more than sevety times in a day"?? What is even sweet about the racism against the Jews that Muhammad pronounced as a 'prophecy' for the LAST HOUR unto Muslims?

So, if I happen not to join ranks with those who have no assurance of their sins forgiven, and who express such deep racist hatred against any group of people, then there's nothing for me?? So much for the salvation in Islam; but no thanks - Jesus has both changed my life, filled me with love and hope for hope for the glory of His presence in the Second Coming.

babs787:

Was Jesus a christian?

He has always been the Son of God and Lord of our salvation. Deny that, no bother; but He certainly was NOT a muslim.

babs787:

Quran 3 v 85: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter, he will be in the ranks of those who have lost.

Was that why Muhammad declared war on non-Muslims when he sought to force his religion on others? But you should have quoted Sura 2:256 where Muhammad said that "there is NO COMPULSION in religion"; and yet he still came back to controvert that statement with this hadith: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle. . ." [Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 1, Bk 2, #24].

babs787:

Quran 3 v 91;Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in th Ayat (proofs, evidences, signs, revelations etc) of Allah, then surely, Allah is swift in caling to account.

Another partisan quote. First of all, what are the "proofs, evidences, and signs" of Allah? If there were any, why have you been conspicuosly absent from The Greatest Miracle In islam??

Second, we all know that Muhammad likes to accuse others - and for reasons which include jealousy. One of the reasons why I'm persuaded that Jesus Christ was NOT a muslim, is because He asked for forgiveness for His persecutors and unbelievers (Luke 23:34); and He urged Christians to both love and pray for those who hate and persecute them (Matt. 5:44); whereas, Muhammad's recommendation to Muslims can be found in Sura 9:113 -

"It is not fitting, for the Prophet and those who believe, that they should pray for forgiveness for Pagans, even though they be of kin, after it is clear to them that they are companions of the Fire."

babs787:

Quran 2 v 277: Truly, those who believe and do deeds of righteousness and perform As-Salat and give Zakat, they will have their reward with their Lord. On them shall be no fear , nor shall they grieve.

Almost every religion preaches good works and deeds of righteousness - including Christianity (although we are not saved by any work of righteousness which we have done - Tit. 3:4-5).

However, I'm very aware that there are many verses in the Qur'an that predicate salvation in Islam on deeds and good works. Another example: Sura 5:9 says, "To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward." And again in Sura 7:8-9, "And the measuring out on that day will be just; then as for him whose measure (of good deeds) is heavy, those are they who shall be successful. And as for him whose measure (of good deeds) is light those are they who have made their souls suffer loss because they disbelieved in Our communications."

There are many such verses, babs787, there are many such. What I cannot understand with you guys is that you fail to see how Muhammad controverted this promise of 'Allah' in the Hadith. He categorically said that Muslims are not saved by good works or deeds of righteousness; not even MUHAMMAD HIMSELF can escape that:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “The good deeds of any person will not make him enter Paradise.”
(i.e., None can enter Paradise through his good deeds.) They (the Prophet’s companions) said,
‘Not even you, O Allah’s Apostle?’ He said, “Not even myself, unless Allah bestows His favor and
mercy on me. So be moderate in your religious deeds and do the deeds that are within your ability:
and none of you should wish for death, for if he is a good doer, he may increase his good deeds,
and if he is an evil doer, he may repent to Allah.”
(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 7, Bk. 70, Num. 577).

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The deeds of ANYONE of you will not save you (from the (Hell) Fire)."
They said, "Even you (will not be saved by your deeds), O Allah's Apostle?"
He said, "No, even I (will not be saved) unless and until Allah bestows His Mercy on me.
Therefore, do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately, and worship Allah in the
forenoon and in the afternoon and during a part of the night, and always adopt a middle,
moderate, regular course whereby you will reach your target (Paradise)."
(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 8, Bk. 76, Num. 470).

There are several other Hadith verses that speak to the same point. But there again, apart from deeds of righteousness, what about the question of SIN?? Muslims often accuse Christians as being the grossest of sinners on the face of the earth; but was Muhammad any better when he admitted to his sins and turning in repentance to Allah over seventy times DAILY? This is not some peripheral claim, babs787; and I'd like you to see for yourself how Muhammad dealt with SIN among Muslims:

Narrated Abu Dharr:

The Prophet said, Gabriel came to me and gave me the glad tidings that anyone who died
without worshipping anything besides Allah, would enter Paradise. I asked (Gabriel),
‘Even if he committed theft, and even if he committed illegal sexual intercourse?’
He said, ‘(Yes), even if he committed theft, and even if he Committed illegal sexual intercourse.”
(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 9, Bk. 93, # 579).

Quite to the contrary, the righetous Lord of heaven and earth will not let sin abide His presence. He offers His forgiveness and cleaning of sin in the Name of Jesus Christ the sinless One; and NO worshipper of 'Allah' who dies in their sins (theft, illegal sexual intercourse, etc. included) will EVER enter into paradise:

"For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie" (Rev. 22:15).

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor. 6:9-10).

@babs787,

babs787:

There is something I missed when I wasnt around but when the time comes, we will re-address it

No wahala. I'm going to be very busy beginning next week; but I'll always try and address the issues you bring along. In hindsight, please do us the favour of addressing issues laid out for you, abeg - especially those posted by pilgrim.1 

babs787:

I have provided rebuttal, its left for you to bring it out for me where it refers to Jesus. You may bring the verse out if you so wish and we will treat it together again.

What you offered was your trademark denial, rather than rebuttal. Here's Isaiah 9:6 again:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor,
The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Now, let me ask you: If that verse was not refering to the MESSIAH, then WHO was it referring to?

babs787:

Brother, you keep nailing yourself. Why not do us proud by posting the verses for people to see. Let me have it from the verses where it was prophesised that he would be crucified. from the OT. I have been reading same bible as yours and it never supported crucifixion

Okay, here are the OT verses I offered earlier in reference to the crucifixion:

Psalm 22:16 - "For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet."

Zechariah 12:10 - "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn"

Here are the NT verses in fulfillment of those referenced in the OT:

A. Psalm 22:16 & 18 and Mark 15:24

Psalm - "¹⁶For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. . . ¹⁸They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture."

Mark - "And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take."


B. Zechariah 12:10 and John 19:37

Zechariah - ""And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

John - "And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."

Now, babs787, what is your understanding of the word "pierced" in those verses, and how do they differ from their fulfillment in the NT verses I referenced as well??

babs787:

Your belief

Oga, na true I talk now. . . anyone who goes to those websites at first glance know say you dey photocopy (or rank xerox) their vexations, dress them up and call them your own. Haba, maigida. .minini??

I thought I was the only one.
Notice the glaring difference between his own words and the pasted sites.
The best he can do is paste the copied site,that's what most people do.

@stimulus

No wahala. I'm going to be very busy beginning next week; but I'll always try and address the issues you bring along. In hindsight, please do us the favour of addressing issues laid out for you, abeg - especially those posted by pilgrim.1  

Never mind, Insha Allah, I will meet you there after my response to your rejoinder here. The thread will be the most interesting and mother of all threads.

Here are the questions:

1. I saw a post by someone saying he was crucified publicly, did his disciples witness the crucifixion?


2. Christians say that Jesus and the disciples were aware of what he came to do, if that is the case, why did the disciples not believe that he had risen from the dead?


3. If the disciples knew that Jesus had to rise, why didn’t they return to Jerusalem to see the resurrection?


4. Where was jesus crucified, Outside Jerusalem or in Jerusalem?





What you offered was your trademark denial, rather than rebuttal. Here's Isaiah 9:6 again:

  "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
  and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
  and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor,
  The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Now, let me ask you: If that verse was not refering to the MESSIAH, then WHO was it referring to?

Isaiah 9 v 6:

a. Did he rule Isreal?
b. Was he king of the Jew?
c. Was Government on his shoulder?
d. Was he really prince of peace of OT or NT?




Okay, here are the OT verses I offered earlier in reference to the crucifixion:

Psalm 22:16 - "For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet."

Zechariah 12:10 - "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn"

Here are the NT verses in fulfillment of those referenced in the OT:

A. Psalm 22:16 & 18 and Mark 15:24

Psalm - "16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. . . 18They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture."

Mark - "And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take."


B. Zechariah 12:10 and John 19:37

Zechariah - ""And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

John - "And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."

Now, babs787, what is your understanding of the word "pierced" in those verses, and how do they differ from their fulfillment in the NT verses I referenced as well??


You are very funny my brother. Hope you will not say that I lifted the verses from websites (typical escapist strategy). You have been accusing Muslims of lifting out of context but here you are doing same. Now let me bring out the verses for readers to see and you will see that it was David talking about his deliverance. Now go to the beginning of chapter 18 and you will read thus and I quote

‘To the choirmaster. A psalm of David the servant of the Lord, who addressed the words of this song to the Lord on the day when the Lord delivered him from the hand of all his enemies and from the hand of saul. He said

Psalm 22 v 1: My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me from the words of my groaning (2) o my God, I cry by day, but thou dost not answer and by night, but find no rest (3) yet thou art holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel (4) in thee our fathers trusted; they trusted and thou didst deliver them (5) to thee they cried, abd were saved; in thee they trusted, and were not disappointed (6) but I am a worm, and no man; scorned by man, and despised by the people (7) all who see me mock at me, they  make mouths at me, they wag their heads ( He committed his cause to the Lord; let him deliver him, let him rescue him, for he delights in him (7) yet thou art he who took me from the worms ; thou didst keep me safe upon my mother’s breasts. (10) upon thee was I cast from my  birth and since my mother bore me thou hast been my God (11) be not far from me, for trouble is near and there is none to help. (12) many bulls encompass me, strong bulls of Bashan surround me (13) they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion (14) I am poured out like water and all my bones are out of joint, my heart is like a wax, it is melted within my breast (15) my strength is dried up like a potsherd and my tongue cleaves to my jaws, thou dost lay me in the dust of death (16) yea, dogs are round about me, a copany of evildoers encircle me, they have pirced my hands and feet (17) I can count all my bones, they stare and gloat over me (18) they divide my garments among them, and for my rainment they cast lots (19) but thou, o Lord, be not far off! O thou my help. Hasten to my aid (20) deliver my soul from the sword, my life from the power of the dog (21) save me from the mouth of the lion, my afflicted soul from the horns of the wild oxen

From NLT

(22) Then I will declare the wonder of your name to my brothers and sisters, I will praise you among all your people (23) praise the Lord, all you who fear him! honour him, all you descendants of Jacob, show him reverence, all you descendants of Israel (24) for he has not ignored the suffering of the needy. He, has not turned and walked away. He has listened to their cries for help.

The word of God concerning Israel
Zechariah 12 v 7 : and the Lord will give victory to the 10th of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may not be exalted over that of Judah. ( on that day  the Lord will put a shield about the inhabitants of Jerusalem so that the feeblest among them on that day shall be like David anmd the house of David shall be like God, like the angel of the Lord, at their head (9) and on thwt day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem (10) and I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that when they look on whom they have pierced , they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly for him, as one weeps over a firstborn (11) on that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning for Hadadrimon in the plain of magido (12) the land shall mourn each family by itself, the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves, the family of the house of nations by itself and their wives by themselves.

To understand what they meant by piercing, pls read on

Chapter 13 v 3: and if any one again appears as a prophet, his father and mother who bore him will say to him, ‘you shall not live, for you speak lies in the name of the lord, and his father and mother who bore him shall pierce him through when he prophesies

Now after being pierced, this is the result

V 6: and if one asks him,’ what are these wounds on your back? He will say, ‘the wounds I received in the house of my friends.

Hope you have understood piercing?  Piercing is different from crucifixion and crucifixion wasn’t mentioned. Hope you ve seen that the verses are not making reference to Jesus but to David and Zechariah respectively. Give me a verse that says he would be crucified and would rose the 3rd day.

Did you also noticed that the incident was recorded before Jesus was born (‘whom they have pierced’) meaning that the action happened before he was born.

Did you also read piercing from John 19 v 34. piercing is done with sword and not your so called crucifixion.




Oga, na true I talk now. . . anyone who goes to those websites at first glance know say you dey photocopy (or rank xerox) their vexations, dress them up and call them your own. Haba, maigida. .minini??

Yes o. I rank zeroxed all the verses as well  



Okay, I can understand that you're repeating Muhammad's claims by rote without having examined ALL he said and taught. If anyone follows the adventures of Muhammad, would one call that "sweet"? I give you just one: what is sweet about "turning in repentance to Allah more than sevety times in a day"?? What is even sweet about the racism against the Jews that Muhammad pronounced as a 'prophecy' for the LAST HOUR unto Muslims?

So, if I happen not to join ranks with those who have no assurance of their sins forgiven, and who express such deep racist hatred against any group of people, then there's nothing for me?? So much for the salvation in Islam; but no thanks - Jesus has both changed my life, filled me with love and hope for hope for the glory of His presence in the Second Coming.


So because Jesus is a prophet, he shouldn’t be grateful, worship him, seek repentance for sin committed unknowingly to his creator who made him prophet among thousands of people. Brother, you need to know the purpose of creation and by so doing, you will know that even the  prophets worshipped God, glorified Him, seek his repentance and protection from evils. Please what is baptism for?



He has always been the Son of God and Lord of our salvation. Deny that, no bother; but He certainly was NOT a muslim.

Brother, the religion practiced wasn’t Christianity. Did he practice same as Abraham, Adam, Noah etc and do you have the proof from your bible?




Was that why Muhammad declared war on non-Muslims when he sought to force his religion on others? But you should have quoted Sura 2:256 where Muhammad said that "there is NO COMPULSION in religion"; and yet he still came back to controvert that statement with this hadith: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle. . ." [Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 1, Bk 2, #24].



When did he force his religion on others? Brother, you need to read the story of the most influential man.

As to the verse you quoted, the incident happened during his time when he was preaching Islam and the pagans never wanted him to, they tried all sort of things, they never allowed his people to do anything with the community. He was told never to fight and had to leave his community with his followers. He left Mecca, leaving his properties along with that of his companions, his homes etc for Medinah. When the oppression and aggression became too much, he had to fight back, for the safety of his companion etc. bother, this thread wil not be able to contain his story if I start.

Quran 22 v 39 –40: permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed and most surely Allah is well able to assit them

V 40: those who have been expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say: ‘our Lord is Allah’. And had there not been Allah’s repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah’ name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause, most surely Allah is strong, mighty.

Quran 2 v 190 – 193: and fight in the way of Allah with those who fight you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.

V 191: and kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out and persecution is severer than slaughter and do not fight with them in the sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them, such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

V 192: but if they desist, then surely Allah is forgiving, merciful

V 193: and fight with them unbtil there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against oppressors.

Hope you understood?


As for the jews, you need to read their history and learn more about who they are.
Hear what Jesus said concerning them

Matt. 23:27-39 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead {men's} bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous, and say, if we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. {Ye} serpents, {ye} generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and {some} of them ye shall kill and crucify; and {some} of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute {them} from city to city. That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, {thou} that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under {her} wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed {is} he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

Read this too

Deut. 7:2-5 "When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jesuits, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, {and} utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire."

As for racism, why not read your bible first before accusing me of same

Deut. 23 v 19: do not charge your brother interest, you may charge a foreigner interest, but not a brother Israel.

Mark 7 v 27: jesus said to her who sought his help, ‘it is not meet to take the children’s bread and cast it to th dogs.

Mathew 7 v 6: he also said: do not give that which is holy to the dogs, neither cast your pearls to the pigs.

Genesis 9 v21: noah drank of the wine and became drunk and lay uncovered in his tent. And Ham the father of Canaan saw the unclothedness of his father and told his two brothers outside. Then shem and japhet took a garment laid it upon both their shoulders and covered the unclothedness of their father. Their faces were turned away and they di not see their father’s unclothedness.

Whn noah awoke from his wine and he knee what his youngest son had done to him, he saisd’ cursed be cannan, a slave of slaves shall be to his brother, blessed be shem, and let cannan be his slave.

Leviticus 26 v 7: infact you will chase down all your enemies and slaughter them with your hands

V 8: five of you will chase a hundred and a hundred of you will chase a thousand. All your enemies will fall beneath the blows of your weapons.

Now let us read further, the most interesting story showing that is God really LOVE

Leviticus 27 v  14: if you do not obey me or my commandments
15: and if you break my coveant by rejecting my laws and treating my regulations with contempt

16: I will punish you. You will suffer from sudden tenors, with wasting diseases and with boring fevers, causing your eyes to fail and your life to ebb away. You will plant your crops in vain because your enemies will eat them

17: I will turn against you and you will be defeated by all your enemies. They will rule over you and you will run even when no one is chasing you.

God did not stop there ooooooo

V 18: and if , in spite of this, you still disobey me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over. I will break down your arrogant spirit by making the skies above as unyielding as iron and the earth beneath as hard as bronze

V 20: all your work will be for nothing, for your land will yield no crops and your trees will bear no fruits.

Again, the merciful God continues

V 21; if ever then you remain hostile towards me and refuse to obey. I will inflict you with more disaster for your sons

V 22: I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted

The forgiven and merciful God Jesus continues

V 23: and if you fail to learn a lesson from this and continue your hostility towards me

V 24: then I myself will be hostile towards you, and I will personally strike you seven times over for your sins

V 25; I will send armies against you to carry out these covenant treats. If you flee to your cities, I will send a plague to destroy you there and you will be conquered by your enemies

This God is really wonderful, haba na wa o, he vex reach food o. he is really merciful

V 26: I will completely destroy your  your food supply, so the bread from one oven will have to be stretched to feed ten families. They will ration your food by weight and even if you have food to eat, you will not be satisfied.

Hear God after all those sufferness, he never stopped, he continued

V 27: if after this you still refuse to listen and still remain hostile towards me

V 28: then I will give full vent to my hostility. I will punish you seven times over for your sins

V 29: you will eat the flesh of your own sons and daughters

V 30: I will destroy your pagan shrines and cut down your incense altars. I will leave your corpses piled up beside your lifeless idols, and I will despise you.

V 32: yes, I myself will devaste your land. Your enemies who come to occupy it will be utterly shocked at the destruction they see.

V 33: I will scatter you among the nations and attack you with my own weapons. Your land will become desolate and your cities will lie in ruins.

Now for the survivals

V 36: and for those of you who survided, I will demoralize you in the land of your enemies far away. You will live there in such constant faer that the sound of a leaf driven by the wind will send you fleeing. You will run as though chased by a warrior with a sword and you will fall when no one is pursuing you.

V 39: those still left alive will rot away on enemy lands because of their sins and the sins of their ancestors.

After killing everybody, he said

V 40: but at last my people will confess their sins and the sins of their ancestors for betraying me and being hostile towards me

Now from the disgusting story above,  God that forgives after having inflicted them with diseases, allowed them to kill their children, remembered his covenant with Jacob Abraham etc.

God did all the above because they did not listen to him. He indeed pray for sinners and never do any harm.


"It is not fitting, for the Prophet and those who believe, that they should pray for forgiveness for Pagans, even though they be of kin, after it is clear to them that they are companions of the Fire
This is the continuation of the verse you quoted


Quran 9 v 114: And Abraham asking forgiveness for his sire was only owing to a promise which he had made top him but it became clear to him that he was an enemy of Allah, he declared himself to be clear of him, most surely Abraham was very tender hearted and forbearing.




  Narrated Abu Huraira:

     Allah's Apostle said, "The deeds of ANYONE of you will not save you (from the (Hell) Fire)."
     They said, "Even you (will not be saved by your deeds), O Allah's Apostle?"
     He said, "No, even I (will not be saved) unless and until Allah bestows His Mercy on me.
     Therefore, do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately, and worship Allah in the
     forenoon and in the afternoon and during a part of the night, and always adopt a middle,
     moderate, regular course whereby you will reach your target (Paradise)."
     (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 8, Bk. 76, Num. 470).


It has shown that you do not understand the above hadith. The prophet is saying that your deed alone cannot guarantee you Paradise. For example, there are some that do good deeds but do not believe in God, in his existence nor worship Him.

Islamic concept of salvation is not based upon good deeds, but is based primarily upon faith. In the dozens of times Allah Almighty talks in the Quran about salvation, he always states, "Those who believe and do good deeds." Belief is always mentioned before deeds or works. When one converts to Islam, one does not do it by doing some good work but rather through realizing and believing that there is but one God and Muhammed peace be upon him is his last messenger. Non-Muslims may perform good works as well, but what sets them apart from Muslims is their lack of Imaan (Aqeedah) [faith], or belief. The reason that the good works of the non-believers are worthless in the hereafter is because of their disbelief. Unless a person's imaan or aqeedah is not correct, all his good deeds are worthless.


In order to gain Paradise, belief must come first. I gave you lots of Verses on Salat as being the sole passport to Heaven. When a man die, His solat will forst be looked into before any other things.

Now after your belief, your good deeds follows as he said in the last part of the Hadith


Therefore, do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately, and worship Allah in the
     forenoon and in the afternoon and during a part of the night, and always adopt a middle,
     moderate, regular course whereby you will reach your target (Paradise)."

So you cannot say that your Paradise is guaranteed without belief in Him. Belief must come first before your good deeds. You cant worship what you dont belive in. So whether you are a believer or a non-believer, all your deeds will be shown to you be it good or bad


Quran 4 v 125:Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to God, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For God did take Abraham for a friend.  

Also I want you to know that he forgives all sins so far you have no intention of going into it again


Quran 35v45: If God were to punish men according to what they deserve, He would not leave on the back of the (earth) a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: when their Term expires, verily God has in His sight all His Servants.  


Quran 8:38:Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from unbelief), their past would be forgiven for them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).  

Quran 38v66:The Lord of the heavens and the earth, and all between,- Exalted in Might, able to enforce His Will, forgiving again and again.  


Quran53v32:
If we are sincere, our daily sins are almost always forgiven:  "Those who avoid great sins and shameful deeds, only (falling into) small faults,- verily thy Lord is ample in forgiveness. He knows you well when He brings you out of the earth, And when ye are hidden in your mothers' wombs. Therefore justify not yourselves: He knows best who it is that guards against evil.  

Quran 4v110:If you ask Allah Almighty for forgiveness, then He'll forgive you: "If any one does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks God's forgiveness, he will find God Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Quran 14v7:If you are grateful to Allah Almighty, then He'll give you more: "And remember! your Lord caused to be declared (publicly): 'If ye are grateful, I will add more (favours) unto you; But if ye show ingratitude, truly My punishment is terrible indeed.'

Quran 39 v 53: Be sure that Allah Almighty is always Willing to forgive all of your sins:  "Say: 'O my Servants who Have transgressed against their souls!  Despair not of the Mercy of Allah:  for Allah forgives all sins for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.  




Quran 10:61 "In whatever business thou mayest be, and whatever portion thou mayest be reciting from the Quran, and whatever deed ye (mankind) may be doing, We are witnesses thereof when ye are deeply engrossed therein. Nor is hidden from thy Lord (so much as) the weight of an atom on the earth or in heaven. And not the least and not the greatest of these things but are recorded in a clear record."

Quran 99:7-8 "Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it!  And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil, shall see it."



  Narrated Abu Dharr:

     The Prophet said, Gabriel came to me and gave me the glad tidings that anyone who died
     without worshipping anything besides Allah, would enter Paradise. I asked (Gabriel),
     ‘Even if he committed theft, and even if he committed illegal sexual intercourse?’
     He said, ‘(Yes), even if he committed theft, and even if he Committed illegal sexual intercourse.”
     (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 9, Bk. 93, # 579).

Brother, let me explain. Heavens has grades, and you will be in any heaven depending on your belief and good deeds. Now there are some people that will taste Hell for a while and will be moved to Paradise just because they have faith and believe in God and His Messenger. An adulterer who confesses the Shahadah and died will be judged according to his belief and good work, if he deserves Hell, Allah will put him there but the time he would stay be determined by the level of his sin. Hope I have communicated?



Quite to the contrary, the righetous Lord of heaven and earth will not let sin abide His presence. He offers His forgiveness and cleaning of sin in the Name of Jesus Christ the sinless One; and NO worshipper of 'Allah' who dies in their sins (theft, illegal sexual intercourse, etc. included) will EVER enter into paradise:

"For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie" (Rev. 22:15).

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor. 6:9-10).

Brother, from christian's perspective, they claimed to be God's son. Does it make sense for God to put his son in Hell for eternity?

Far from that, if you want to judge based on the above, it means, David, Judah, Amnon, Absalom, etc will be inhabitants of Hell fire.

@stimulus



1. I saw a post by someone saying he was crucified publicly, did his disciples witness the crucifixion?


2. Christians say that Jesus and the disciples were aware of what he came to do, if that is the case, why did the disciples not believe that he had risen from the dead?


3. If the disciples knew that Jesus had to rise, why didn’t they return to Jerusalem to see the resurrection?


4. Where was jesus crucified, Outside Jerusalem or in Jerusalem?



You have been accusing me of running from questions, I asked you the above questions in 'was jesus crucified' but u never said anything to the questions, so I decided to bring them again and after that, we will address those of misright together.

Take Care

@stimulus

Lert me have how to attain salvation in christianity. I have tried the two religion and can confidently tell you that no religion that teaches Paradise as Islam. Al-Quran is my sure link with Allah, proof me wrong and I will join yours.

On the issue of salvation, pastors too are confused and if they are not, please explain these to me

The Bible confuses the whole issue of salvation. Many claim that faith in Jesus Christ is enough for salvation as being put by John 3 v 15- 18. If you are laying claim to that, then is a problem as there are other verses that go against that. For example the Gospel says that whoever believes and is baptized will gain paradise (Mark 16 v 16) that leaves us to wonder about the fate of those born again Christians that died or are alive without being baptized. I doubt it if you yourself has been baptized. Now going through the bible, one wonders if faith alone can make one to have salvation (john 3 v 15-18) or faith with baptism (mark 16 v 16) or faith with works (james 2 v 14-15). Which of those qualifies one for Paradise?

Further, in the books of Ephesians 1:4-6 and Revelation 17:8, everybody is pr-destined for either heaven of hell before the ‘foundation of the world’. Meaning that no one can be saved except his name is written in the beginning whether you are born again or not and whether you have been baptized or not. Also, no one can gain paradise except God wants (John 6 v 65), meaning that it is based on God’s decision and will save someone when he likes.

So let me have your explanation in addition to my questions

Peace

"Everyone who comes to Me (Jesus) and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. "But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great. . . Luke 6

No other religion professes a living and risen savior like Jesus Christ who offers salvation for the lost sinner and eternal life for the believer. . . .No man could create the life that Jesus lived. . .He is real and alive in the hearts and souls of those who have seen and experienced His blessed glory and spirit. . . .Amen

@luvinguy

Did you read my post up?

babs787:

@luvinguy

Did you read my post up?

I've got to admit, I didn't but I'm just here to spread the Good News

@LuvinGuy

Thanks for the Good News

You are welcome

Now back to the topic

The problem of the denial of the crucifixion as a historical reality. Now I want to look at it from the aspect of meaning. Both Jews and Christians are in agreement that the crucifixion happened. There was absolutely no disagreement and no confusion about this. The Qur'an is producing confusion where there was none before. The Qur'an denies the crucifixion but does not give any evidence for what happened. It does not give any explanation. The one and only Quranic passage on this issue reads:


4:157. That they said (in boast)
      "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of Allah";
      but they killed him not nor crucified him
      but so it was made to appear to them
      and those who differ therein are full of doubts
      with no (certain) knowledge but only conjecture to follow
      for of a surety they killed him not.
4:158. Nay Allah raised him up unto Himself;
      and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
4:159. And there is none of the People of the Book
      but must believe in him before his death;
      and on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness against them.

I can authoritatively state that the Qu'ran lacks merit and clarity in the simplest sense of the word!

Since I cannot see any evidence why God would be the author of the Qur'an I will assume in the following that Muhammad is this author. But it could be any other source other than God himself and the observations below would still make sense.

The one thing the Jews and Christians agree upon is the historical fact of the crucifixion. And this is what the Qur'an denies. But the Qur'an does not give any explanation or clarification as promised in Sura 16:64, nor is it confirming the earlier scriptures as mentioned in Sura 12:111. The Qur'an denies instead of confirming and is confusing instead of clarifying. And seemingly, in order to protect himself from difficult questions he couldn't answer, the author also inserted the phrase "and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no (certain) knowledge but only conjecture to follow" (this sounds very much unlike God to me) but then continues to claim "for of a surety they killed him not" as if repetition would make it any more impressive. If the author of the Qur'an is so sure about it why has he not disclosed some information as to give us certainty and clarity as the Qur'an promised to?


In Sura 4:157 we read:


That they [the Jews] said (in boast), "We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the messenger of Allah"; yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, , 

No Jew would ever boast that he killed the Messiah. This statement is a complete impossibility. The very reason that the Jews killed him was that they believed him NOT to be the Messiah, and the fact that they were able to crucify him, is sign to them that he could not have been the Messiah. All Jews look forward to the coming of the Messiah as the fulfillment of all their hopes. This verse again shows that Muhammad did not understand the controversy between Jews and Christians and especially did not know that "Messiah" is a title that has such a crucial significance and that it is not something like a surname for Jesus and especially that no Jew (if he has not become a Christian) would ever have called him the Messiah. And those Jews who have come to believe in Jesus and do call him Messiah are surely not those who would boast about having killed him. Any way you look at this, it shows the basic ignorance and confusion on this issue

I think the author (M'hamed) is as confused as his followers

@nossycheeks,

I will respond your post soon.

Cheers

4:157. That they said (in boast)
       "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of Allah";
       but they killed him not nor crucified him
       but so it was made to appear to them
       and those who differ therein are full of doubts

Hmmm. . . "But so it was made to appear to them"

#1. "Made to appear" - by WHO??

#2. "Made to appear" - which is the line often used by Muslims to argue that someone else was crucified instead of Jesus. Please, WHO WAS THAT SOMEONE ELSE?? What is his name?? Where did he come from?? And what happened to him afterwards??

stimulus:

Hmmm. . . "But so it was made to appear to them"

#1. "Made to appear" - by WHO??

#2. "Made to appear" - which is the line often used by Muslims to argue that someone else was crucified instead of Jesus. Please, WHO WAS THAT SOMEONE ELSE?? What is his name?? Where did he come from?? And what happened to him afterwards??

allah knows best

stimulus:

Hmmm. . . "But so it was made to appear to them"

#1. "Made to appear" - by WHO??

#2. "Made to appear" - which is the line often used by Muslims to argue that someone else was crucified instead of Jesus. Please, WHO WAS THAT SOMEONE ELSE?? What is his name?? Where did he come from?? And what happened to him afterwards??

Wey them?

stimulus:

Hmmm. . . "But so it was made to appear to them"

#1. "Made to appear" - by WHO??

#2. "Made to appear" - which is the line often used by Muslims to argue that someone else was crucified instead of Jesus. Please, WHO WAS THAT SOMEONE ELSE?? What is his name?? Where did he come from?? And what happened to him afterwards??

it is in the lost injil, if only they could find it.

davidylan:

it is in the lost injil, if only they could find it.

You always have a way to kill me with laff!!

I go come back ooo.

I no fit laugh sha, when you dey argue with a mallam, sofli sofli break the grammar otherwise, he no go understand.

let the alfa continue to twist the Bible to his favour until I come out with the satanic verses.