Dr Kitaun:

lol !!!

eldee:

You know what's really funny, at the end of last season . . . this same thing was happening on the old Gunners' Thread.
You were the one playing the new Debosky role . . . he was busy doing a Duduspace

This is dejavu

slimshay:

Suara and him mumuish Shawcross comments again. I guess the players pf teh EPL must be drugged to vote Verm into the team of the season.
Its the ARSENAL!!! Gunners never run, gunners been fighting all their lives. Na here we dey.

debosky:

Kit on the other hand likes wasting time discussing metaphysical bunkum like how Silvestre's former life as a tiger is giving us bad luck since Arsenal's karma is that of a lion.

I discuss facts and issues while Kit is always speaking like nostradamus high on ganja.

debosky:

I resent that - I have never done a Duduspace.

I've never been content with 4th, BUT given we had finally bought someone of some experience in Arshavin, I felt there was a chance Wenger was beginning to realise his flaws and correct them. My hope for this season was based on two clear indicators - a need to buy in the summer wisely (which didn't happen bar Vermaelen) .

debosky:


What prophecy? They will simply promote to meet the 8 man rule, but if they sell e.g. Belletti they can replace him with a foreigner as long as they've met the quota requirements. Unlike us, they will likely win a league and cup double this season and will be far better able to attract big talents than a club that perennially seems to be content with coming 4th. Nateevs has been screaming for those players to join the first team anyways, so its not really a surprise.

What you fail to realise is that trophies have continue to exert big pull as well, and the longer we fail to win, the lower that pull becomes. Even the ones we develop will inevitably be tempted elsewhere with our abysmal win rate.

The most crucial part is this - once EVERY club is forced to take on more youths, then our 'unique' attractiveness of giving youth a chance will be gone, in addition to the fact that the other teams (Chelski and United) continue to pay better wages AND win trophies. After that what will we be left with?

Oh I forgot - we will be 'sustainable'.

duduspace:

Give credit where it is due, I pointed it out on here that Chelsea and Manure cannot afford to continue to spend the way they have and the rule was one of the reasons I stated that anyway but even apart from the rule, Chelsea's moves in the transfer market at the beginning of this window had already pointed to the emerging trend in purchase of players. For example, since Manure has sold off CR7, they haven't breached the 20m ceiling or brought in any marquee player.

Yes Chelsea and the others will promote but do you really think the youth they promote are of the quality we promote? would you compare the big game experience the likes of Wilshere, Traore, Vela, Theo, Denilson and co have gained to these new lads being promoted into their squads? even despite those we have in house, we have another 15 U21 players out on loan gaining experience and making impact in the Championship and League 1 and foreign leagues.

I tell you this and I've followed youth football since the likes of Bendtner and Lupoli were tearing the reserves apart in 04/05, no club in the PL has the quality Arsenal have got coming through the ranks. In another club, someone like Wilshere would be in the reserves and not fighting for points week in week out. Someone like Eastmond will likely go on loan next season while one or both of JET and Lansbury will be brought back for squad depth with the experience they've gained.

Don't be deceived by Sturridge's goal against Stoke, it is much easier scoring those kinds of goals when yu're being brought on with no real pressure on you to deliver and with your team already 4-0 up and full of the likes of Drogba and Ballack who have been there numerous times before. The playing field is being levelled as we speak and I look forward to next season.

duduspace:

You misrepresent me Debo, nowhere have I ever been content with 4th, only that with what we've put in compared to the others, we're about where we should be.

Besides we aren't 4th by the way, as at the last time I looked at the table we were 3rd and I don't think I need to go to specsavers. 

Our system is one that requires considerable time to bear fruit and we didn't get the balance right this season with the injury jinx not helping matters in any way, going forwards is a different matter entirely, I won't be content with anything less than a top 2 finish next season and maybe one of the domestic cups. I will also look forward to a minimum quarter final UCL and possible semi final appearance dependng on who we draw.

duduspace:

Give credit where it is due, I pointed it out on here that Chelsea and Manure cannot afford to continue to spend the way they have and the rule was one of the reasons I stated that anyway but even apart from the rule, Chelsea's moves in the transfer market at the beginning of this window had already pointed to the emerging trend in purchase of players. For example, since Manure has sold off CR7, they haven't breached the 20m ceiling or brought in any marquee player.

debosky:

Bollocks dude - we won't know if any 'prophecy' has come true till after the summer. Utd still spent for next season in January, so what are you going on about? If Chelski wins the title, they will be fully justified in that they didn't need to buy to win. Chelski is not usually a big buyer in January anyways, so you can't tell much.

debosky:

Chelski had no need to buy, if they could go without Essien and Bosingwa virtually all season and still do this well, buying is not really their problem. They have sufficient experience and can afford to begin to blend, while we have no choice but to throw youngsters in the fire where their inevitable mistakes (with no one to learn from) lead to us dropping points like they are going out of business.

debosky:

The players simply have to be promoted to the SQUAD, they don't necessarily need to play. What you miss out is while we might arguably have 'better' youth to promote, they have an overwhelmingly better first team squad to blend with, and will likely progress faster than our youth.

debosky:

Good example - kindly tell us where Lupoli is 'tearing' up now. If you point to Wilshere, Chelski can point to Mancinenne and DiSanto as well, so again the gap isn't as big as you imagine. Eastmond will not go on loan - he's played EPL games while JET and Lansbury have barely done so.

debosky:

Indeed - how many goals have our 'young' players come on to score? The fact is, BECAUSE they have experience to learn from, those youth will develop faster than Arsenal players who have few or no one to look up to.

The playing field is being levelled indeed - Chelski barely bought last season, didn't bring anyone in January and had Bosingwa, Essien and others injured for virtually the whole season yet are 8 points ahead of us with a massively greater goal difference. If that is levelling I won't want to see the case where they actually get better than us.

debosky:

I don't know why Dudu likes imagining these 'ceilings'. Even without 'breaching' the ceiling, they've brought in Valencia, arguably better and more consistent than any Winger at Arsenal. They've spent £50m to secure their future and we're dilly dallying claiming we are sustainable and are the best.
I don't even know why it matters about a 'marquee' player - was CR7 'marquee' when he was bought?

Apart from Berbatov, who are the 'marquee' players they've bought (not loaned like Tevez) in the past 3 seasons?

Yet they have won 3 trophies on the bounce. Vidic didn't cost £10m, neither did Evra.

Nani is developing himself into a real classy player, and he didn't breach the imaginary £20m band either, neither did Gibson who is getting better by the day.

duduspace:

Stop mixing issues Debo, no one is talking of winning titles now, that is an issue we've flogged already. the issue right now is about spending. If Chelsea wins the title, yes they would have deserved it considering what they've spent in the past and it would be a deseved last hurrah for that team IMO. But can they go an spending as they have with Abramovic needing to write off another 500m in about 3 years time? I don't think so, infact I say a capital NO.

it wasn't looking like that however when they came 3rd after Liverpool in the league last season, fair enough, they didn't need to buy because what they needed was already in but wasn't what they needed already in when they still went ahead to shell out on Schevchenko? In my opinion, there is still a shift in spending, lets wait till summer and compare notes again, though I'm sure you still won't own up then.

True enough, they can be promoted into the squad without playing, but what if they have a lenghty injury list like we've had atimes this season with about 6-8 first teamers out for an extended period? won't these young players have to play? and this is something not totally unlikely for a squad with close to 50% of them being over 30.

In the 5 years between 2005 and now Cesc, Song, Denilson, Clichy, Bendtner have all made the transition from talented teenagers brought in to the club under 18 to first team members and others like Traore, Gibbs, Vela, Theo are poised to make that transition in the next few years.

What makes you think Eastmond won't go on loan? the fact that he's played first team football is no guarantee he won't go on loan. Lansbury is a highly rated one who has been going out on loan often and Arsene has said he should be competing for a first team place next season with the experience he's gained. With JET's stellar performances in Doncaster, he has also staked a claim for a shirt next season. The chances of Eastmond going out on loan next season are very high, I would rate those 2 ahead of him right now.

Lots of goals in fact, only that in the despondence of not winning trophies this is all soon forgotten. Vela got quite a number last season and Theo has gotten a good number even this season but people are quick to forget that Sturridge infact is only 6 months younger than Theo and Vela.
While Chelsea had their fair share of injuries, you can't compare it in any way to ours. By the time we played Wigan, the only first choice players (in their positions) on the pitch were the full backs and Diaby.

duduspace:

I'm not going into how good or how bad the players bought have been, but there has definitely been a shift in Manure's spending,  they bought Hargo for close to 20m and Carrick for close to 19m.

And please stop mentioning Gibson as someone who is getting better by the day, that Chap is the same age as Song and Fabregas but would you change him for any of those 2?

Nani and Anderson were bought for 15m each at 19 and 21 years old and have taken time to come good 2 years later, can Arsenal afford to have playing staff worth 30m warming the benches?

Its the strength in depth these teams have built up in the past they are still depending on, cue Schole's last minute header at City or Gigg's impressive season. We are building our strength in depth within our youth and it will definitely pay us going forwards, we will definitely make the breakthrough very soon.

duduspace:

I'm not going into how good or how bad the players bought have been, but there has definitely been a shift in Manure's spending,  they bought Hargo for close to 20m and Carrick for close to 19m. And please stop mentioning Gibson as someone who is getting better by the day, that Chap is the same age as Song and Fabregas but would you change him for any of those 2?

Nani and Anderson were bought for 15m each at 19 and 21 years old and have taken time to come good 2 years later, can Arsenal afford to have playing staff worth 30m warming the benches?

Its the strength in depth these teams have built up in the past they are still depending on, cue Schole's last minute header at City or Gigg's impressive season. We are building our strength in depth within our youth and it will definitely pay us going forwards, we will definitely make the breakthrough very soon.

duduspace:

Lots of goals in fact, only that in the despondence of not winning trophies this is all soon forgotten. Vela got quite a number last season and Theo has gotten a good number even this season but people are quick to forget that Sturridge infact is only 6 months younger than Theo and Vela.
While Chelsea had their fair share of injuries, you can't compare it in any way to ours. By the time we played Wigan, the only first choice players (in their positions) on the pitch were the full backs and Diaby.

Arsenal Team against Wigan

Lukasz Fabianski
Bacary Sagna
Sol Campbell
Mikael Silvestre
Gael Clichy
Craig Eastmond
Tomas Rosicky
Samir Nasri
Abou Diaby
Theo Walcott
Nicklas Bendtner

~Sauron~:

Carrick was bought for 18 million. . . .The only signing United copped in 2006/7.
It was in 2007/8 United bought Hargreaves - stop distorting the facts to suit your selfish wet dreams.
Hargo and Carrick were not bought in the same transfer windown.

~Sauron~:

The difference between Gibson and Cesc/Song is the lack of opportunities. . . . . .
Before Pique left United, many peops thunk he was average until they started seeing him doing the shifts at Barcelona.
Give Gibson match appearances in a run of 20 league games and he will show his worth. . . . .

~Sauron~:

The same Nani/Anderson that copped MOTM performances against Arsenal in their debut seasons?
Are you high on cheap drugs?

~Sauron~:

Who asked Wenger to sell good players like Gilberto, Pires and Ljunberg prematurely?

duduspace:

I never mentioned dates so there is nothing to dispute with you here, you only asked for marquee signings and I gave you (actually didn't see the 3 year limit) but even then we are in the 4th year and the last 3 years would be 06/07, 07/08, 08/09.

Now you are losing it Debo, even my manure friends here would gladly take any one of those two ahead of Gibson. Apart from the odd long ranger, there isn't much that guy offers. Pique only had to move cause of the sheer quality of Vidic and Rio ahead of him. I hope and pray for the days the likes of Gibson will get 20 league games run for manure cos that would herald the return of the PL to the emirates.

Almost any player can turn it on any given day, its the consistency that is elusive. Samir Nasri also turned it on against Manure last season. Those players have been bit part players and in no way first teamers at manure until this season.

The afore mentioned reasons, the shift towards a youth policy which you stubbornly refuse to see or admit.

biolabee:

I did not know when Nasri, Bendtner and Walcott were no more first choice players for Arsenal lets even excuse Rosicky
dudu stop spewing, the team has perfomed poorly compared to the last term though we increased in position with a more rabid pack of Sp*rs,Citeh and Villa on our tail like never before, and with the reorganisation of Liverpool on the ranks. There might be a major shakeup of the Top 4 next season
If you are talking of tweaking, the first team off the mark is ManU. This is a team that still is in the reckoning despite losing Tevez n CR7
They just need a GK, a striker and a creative midfielder and off they go
We all know what we need but will the man buy

~Sauron~:

There's no shift towards a useless youth policy. . . . .Stop shifting the posts.
Youth policy wouldn't have brought in Arshavin, Silvestre and Sol Campbell. . . . .unless you wanna claim here Silvestre is 19 and Campbell is 17.

duduspace:

Arshavin was brought in only when it was obvious Rosicky wasn't going to be back anytime soon, Silvestre and Sol were never bought to be first teamers. They were basically cheap experienced players brought in as stop gaps, only that one of them served that purpose very well while the other didn't and its no surprise where the one who didn't came from. Djorou would have been ahead of both of them if not for his extended time out due to injury.

biolabee:

Really dudu ask yourself one question

Has the youth policy really paid off, we ssupposedly disband the high wage earners but still our wages are still comparable to manu's now Cesc is the top dog with 110k and other pipes like denilson, walcott and co making like 50 or so while they shd be paid much less

~Sauron~:

There are millions of youth players in Europe who Wenger woulda brought in as stop-gaps. Why did he opt for Campbell/Silvestre if we are to believe in this your theory of 'Youth Policy'. Arshavin was 28 when he was brought in, why didn't Wenger buy Ben Arfa or any 22 yr-old to fill that role?

duduspace:

Why would you need youth to be stop gap for youth? what purpose exactly is a stop gap supposed to achieve? answer those questions and therein lies your answer.

duduspace:

If you consider the fact that the first generation of youth (since Arsene) that really started to make it into our first team  are still in their early 20s (even though Cesc is now a PL veteran, he is still only 22, the same age at which the likes of Gibson are just becoming first teamers) then there is still so much more to come from our youth policy. Just imagine the experience the likes of Bendtner, Denilson would have picked up by 25 or even the much maligned Theo (even though he does seem not to be growing much).

duduspace:

Why would you need youth to be stop gap for youth? what purpose exactly is a stop gap supposed to achieve? answer those questions and therein lies your answer.

debosky:

You cannot have your cake and eat it dudu.

That a stop gap was needed can only mean two things:

1. Wenger failed abysmally in holding on to experienced players like Gilberto and Pires, which necessitated bringing back oldies like Silvestre and Campbell. He failed to hold on to the ones that should've been kept, only resorting to buying back cheaper duds in the end.

2. Wenger's youth project FAILED, needing him to find a stop gap measure to remedy the sudden decline while he yet again started rebuilding what is doomed to fail.

Either way, the need for an IMPORTED stop gap measure shows Wenger's policies - either the one of not given over 30 players extended deals or his over reliance on youth have failed. This failure is something Dudu fails to recognise, only excusing it as if it was always intended to be part of the process.

How Wenger suddenly realised that we were a young team needing some experience while eagerly selling off Bertie, Kolo and others like they were going out of fashion is a clear testament to how his policies have failed.

duduspace:

Did you notice the caveat I put about it being (in their positions?) Bendtner is not first choice and Theo is definitely not first choice, Nasri is first choice but he definitely isn't first choice for the role he played. Stop this scare mongering about next season, even when we were in worse shape we didn't go out of the top 4, is it now that we have better strength in depth, with enough money to improve the squad or now that everyone is going the youth route that we will?.

2. Wenger's youth project FAILED, needing him to find a stop gap measure to remedy the sudden decline while he yet again started rebuilding what is doomed to fail.

debosky:

You cannot have your cake and eat it dudu.

That a stop gap was needed can only mean two things:

1. Wenger failed abysmally in holding on to experienced players like Gilberto and Pires, which necessitated bringing back oldies like Silvestre and Campbell. He failed to hold on to the ones that should've been kept, only resorting to buying back cheaper duds in the end.

2. Wenger's youth project FAILED, needing him to find a stop gap measure to remedy the sudden decline while he yet again started rebuilding what is doomed to fail.

Either way, the need for an IMPORTED stop gap measure shows Wenger's policies - either the one of not given over 30 players extended deals or his over reliance on youth have failed. This failure is something Dudu fails to recognise, only excusing it as if it was always intended to be part of the process.

How Wenger suddenly realised that we were a young team needing some experience while eagerly selling off Bertie, Kolo and others like they were going out of fashion is a clear testament to how his policies have failed.

duduspace:

I'm not trying to do anything fishy Debo, that the youth project has had HICCUPS I would admit,but that it has failed, DEFINITELY NOT, I would however not claim also that it is a success yet but it is something I believe has a very high chance of being successful given time. You see it as a policy that has failed but I see it as something on the threshold of success.

I must admit that the fact that it has been standing on the threshold of success for a while (when maybe it was a bit of overachievement to do this) is what makes it all the more frustrating for supporters and my acceptance of this reality is what you wrongly qualify as being satisfied with mediocrity.

As to the purchase of stop gap old CBs, I would just like to point out that we didn't sell any of our old CBs apart from Kolo Toure who was only sold last season (and considering his form at the time, the amount he went for and the replacement we brought in, I would have gladly offered to drive him to City myself).

Sol walked out on the club due to off field issues and no one had any control over that. In the areas we've sold old players (mostly MF and forward line Henry/Eduaro, Hleb/Arshavin, Ljunberg/Nasri), we've not bought anyone older than the player we've sold. Of the 2 CBs we've brought through our youth system in that time, one is out injured and the other refuses to accept a bit part due to his world cup aspirations and that is what necessitated the stop gap measures.