thoth:
Description of concepts such as Freewill does not lend itself to "black box" phenomenon whereby certain determinants just emerges from a theoretical black box(greater cause,God,Deity etc) rather its best understood if the world we live in is viewed as a finite machine, whereby the action of others influences the choice/cause of actions of succeeding actors.
So why do some people have stronger will than others one may still ask, the same reason why some people are taller due to genes, fair skinned, blue eyed, or violent due to environmental influences. I may assume you a civilized person and in my dealings with you , you might choose to be honest, if along the line that i decided to cheat or renegade on my agreements with you then your level of exposure,education and influence will determine whether you will choose to sue me to court or shoot me with a gun. These determinants are factors which shape the perception of our will, whether its strong in this scenario or weaker in relation to mine. I should also stress that such perception are wholly event based in the sense that your will might be stronger than mine this event but may prove far weaker in another scenario.
Such phenomena is a good example of Dynamic Systems and you can gain further understanding if you study Chaos theory to a light extent.

The problem with discussions such as this is that these concepts has been highly Theologized and Dogmatized by religious institutions which operate solely on "Faith Based Mechanisms" where potent inquiries are shunned and classified as heresy, thus analyzing Freewill from a religious viewpoint might seem awkward in the absence of any form of "Higher Cause"(God,Deity etc) to the uninformed.

Take a few minutes of your time and read about Game theory, its meaning and applications. i find it easier to comprehend and will answer most questions you have on the concept of Will and Supremacy of Will.

A greater cause does not necessarily mean a God or Diety. I personally do not believe in that (though I am open to the possibility).
A greater cause could be the society, the government, the laws of physics anything we can't control as an individual.

Game and Chaos theory are both in support my opinion in the issue

Game Theory says the outcome of a participant depends on the action of other participants.

Chaos Theory says a slightly small change in the condition can give rise to strikingly great consequence.


It appears we are on the same side here.

Everything you say seem to prove my point.

your point which is there is NO Destiny, right ?

Nipeks:



A greater cause does not necessarily mean a God or Diety. I personally do not believe in that (though I am open to the possibility).
A greater cause could be the society, the government, the laws of physics anything we can't control as an individual.

Game and Chaos theory are both in support my opinion in the issue

Game Theory says the outcome of a participant depends on the action of other participants.

Chaos Theory says a slightly small change in the condition can give rise to strikingly great consequence.


It appears we are on the same side here.

Everything you say seem to prove my point.

TinaAnita:


I never talked about dating but love. Let me repeat my comment, I said if someone is not destined to love you there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Now I understand you better

Nipeks:



Your initial response was not harsh at all.

You have agreed that you are not in control because you cannot control all eventualities.

It is easy to take credit after trying very hard and everything eventually fell into place.
Maybe you even pulled some strings yourself that contributed to everything falling into place.
But not everybody has the strength, opportunity, motivation e.t.c that you had. They did not choose not to have those advantages.
If those disadvantages are factors that determine their will power then they are not also in control of their will power.
But even will power is not enough. There are people who tried harder and pulled more strings than you but didn't succeed because of the situation beyond their control.

If you roll a dice 1 million times under the same condition (e.g the size and shape of the dice, the direction and speed of the dice, the motion of the hand rolling the dice etc.) you will also get the same result. The dice may think it's size and shape is a factor that influenced the outcome but it did not choose the cause of its size and shape, therefore, it did not choose the outcome.

Free Will is literally not free will.

I doubt the OP's idea of destiny is control or lack of control of the universe or all eventualities, the question is do you have a conscious hand in the going on of your life, ie are you just a spectator in the game that is YOUR life, has everything been pre-written/pre-destined or can you take the bull by the horn and change the course of your life - that is the argument,
The part highlighted, is just an appeal to circumstances, people move, get more strength, explore new opportunities, become more motivated, finally understand why they have been failing and learn from their failures, etc, people have arisen from far worse, its very easy to accept mediocrity especially when everywhere you turn and people around you are mediocre at best. Hence a man living in a face me i face you house for 10 years would likely remain there until he grows extremely tired of that 'destiny'. As the saying goes 'Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results'.
If you roll a dice a million times you won't get the same results, that is almost impossible, BUT you can anticipate the maximum combinations possible from rolling two dice which is 36 and every number in between.
That's why in an impartial court of law, your circumstances might appeal to the judge/jury's sympathies but it won't exonerate you because you always had FREE WILL, except of course you are totally bonkers, and lawyers and psychiatrists can prove your madness after which it's straight to the mad house.

hedonistic:
The idea that our destiny is in our own hands is quite romantic and appealing. But it is only half the story.

The problem with people is that many of us give ourselves too much credit when something goes in our favour... Oh, I worked hard; that's why I'm successful. What about others who worked even harder, but failed?

Unfortunately, the notion of cause and effect does not fully explain the human condition. Human agency is not as straightforward as it seems.

The sheer fact that you are able to find motivation to work hard, to take action, to be proactive.. is in itself a function of destiny. It is beyond you. Besides, the fact that your action yields the desired results is also a function of destiny, as numerous factors could have conspired to produce a different outcome.

This is golden. Time and chance happens to them all...

StaffofOrayan:



I doubt the OP's idea of destiny is control or lack of control of the universe or all eventualities, the question is do you have a conscious hand in the going on of your life, ie are you just a spectator in the game that is YOUR life, has everything been pre-written/pre-destined or can you take the bull by the horn and change the course of your life - that is the argument,
The part highlighted, is just an appeal to circumstances, people move, get more strength, explore new opportunities, become more motivated, finally understand why they have been failing and learn from their failures, etc, people have arisen from far worse, its very easy to accept mediocrity especially when everywhere you turn and people around you are mediocre at best. Hence a man living in a face me i face you house for 10 years would likely remain there until he grows extremely tired of that 'destiny'. As the saying goes 'Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results'.
If you roll a dice a million times you won't get the same results, that is almost impossible, BUT you can anticipate the maximum combinations possible from rolling two dice which is 36 and every number in between.
That's why in an impartial court of law, your circumstances might appeal to the judge/jury's sympathies but it won't exonerate you because you always had FREE WILL, except of course you are totally bonkers, and lawyers and psychiatrists can prove your madness after which it's straight to the mad house.

There is obviously difference between destiny and control. I am not saying they are the same.
However the two are connected. When people use the word destiny, what usually comes to mind is "God's perfect plan for everybody". I am not saying God or any Deity is responsible for everyone's future.

All I'm saying is that the future is fixed and control 8s the key to explaining that.

If you can't change the outcome of event irrespective of the cause, then the future is fixed.

And I have given several example that shows that thinking the outcome of an event is your doing is an illusion.

Let me rephrase the dice thing again.

If you roll the dice once and it falls to one. There are various conditions that caused it to fall to one (e.g shape and size of the dice, the wind speed and direction, the force, motion and direction that rolled the dice, the friction of the surface of where the dice was rolled e.t.c).
If all those conditions that caused the first outcome are kept, it will always result in the same outcome.
You can search for YouTube Videos. Some skillful gamblers don't even need all those conditions.

I understand your message that nobody should settle for less. But it doesn't matter. People who will settle for less will and people who won't won't.

You may argue that you are not a dice or a robot for that matter. But all those complex decisions you make are basically chemical reactions in your brain. We are chemically advanced robot. Want and fears is our zeros and ones. All our choices are based on wants and fears.

Nobody chooses what they want or fear.

Saying that human CHOICES are based on wants and fears really contradicts the notion of Predestination(the right term in this context)
For you to understand the absurdity of your claim I'll like you to answer this simple but illuminating question.

All Human CHOICES are based on wants and fear as opposed to what ?

I would like to explain that question further, if the plausibility of Predestination relies on "Wants and Fears" What would Free will rely on ?
The question aside, If the effect of our Wants and Fears results in a situation where we make choices, doesn't that still prove that the final outcome is not autonomous ? that such outcomes are a result of rational thoughts aimed at achieving a particularly desired objective. Mind you that individual objectives are not static hence Robert likes Goat meat while Patrick is a vegetarian. so facing the same situation Robert and Patrick will make totally different choices based on the aforementioned determinants(vegetarian versus Meat loving).
A reduction of your statement yields further to its self contradiction when we try to analyze the concept of Want, knowing fully well that OUR WANTS simply arises from our individual quirks and desires and by its nature not static. Being a war veteran i am not really afraid of gunshots, but my wife might faint at the sound of one, if i put her through basic military training those fears will subside to a manageable level. would you describe this conscious action of mine(putting her through military training) an example of Predestination or I influencing her and changing her Fears ?

Nipeks:


All our choices are based on wants and fears.

Nobody chooses what they want or fear.

Until the days of John the Baptist, the kingdom of God suffers violent, and the violent take it by force.. I was never created to be poor in life, if my parents are poor, my case is different.. I disagree with what will be will be. Jesus said, to you many doors is open, but there are many adversaries.. so u must push your way to the top..not relax at the bottom saying what will be will be..Holy Ghost fire!!!!!

THE PURPOSE OF GOD WILL STAND, NO MATTER WHAT...DON'T BE AFRAID, IT IS A GOOD PURPOSE...THE DEVIL SUCCEEDED IN THWARTING THE PURPOSE OF THE ALMIGHTY TEMPORARILY THROUGH ADAM BUT GOD RESTORED HIS PURPOSE THROUGH HIS SON CHRIST JESUS..WE ARE ALL IN THE PLAN OF GOD

thoth:
Saying that human CHOICES are based on wants and fears really contradicts the notion of Predestination(the right term in this context)
For you to understand the absurdity of your claim I'll like you to answer this simple but illuminating question.

All Human CHOICES are based on wants and fear as opposed to what ?

I would like to explain that question further, if the plausibility of Predestination relies on "Wants and Fears" What would Free will rely on ?
The question aside, If the effect of our Wants and Fears results in a situation where we make choices, doesn't that still prove that the final outcome is not autonomous ? that such outcomes are a result of rational thoughts aimed at achieving a particularly desired objective. Mind you that individual objectives are not static hence Robert likes Goat meat while Patrick is a vegetarian. so facing the same situation Robert and Patrick will make totally different choices based on the aforementioned determinants(vegetarian versus Meat loving).
A reduction of your statement yields further to its self contradiction when we try to analyze the concept of Want, knowing fully well that OUR WANTS simply arises from our individual quirks and desires and by its nature not static. Being a war veteran i am not really afraid of gunshots, but my wife might faint at the sound of one, if i put her through basic military training those fears will subside to a manageable level. would you describe this conscious action of mine(putting her through military training) an example of Predestination or I influencing her and changing her Fears ?

If free will really exists, it will not rely on anything. That will only nullify it as free will. But unfortunately, our choices rely on circumstances beyond our control.
That answers your question.

You wife did not will the fear out of herself, she relied on you. Key word - Relied.

Neuroscientist and physicists have carried out various experiments. Non of them proves that fee will exists. Some of the experimental observations are widely viewed as implying that free will does not exist or is an illusion.

Below is a quote from Wikipedia. Just saw this.

Science has contributed to the free will problem in at least three ways. First, physics has addressed the question whether nature is deterministic, which is viewed as crucial by incompatibilists (compatibilists, however, view it as irrelevant). Second, although free will can be defined in various ways, all of them involve aspects of the way people make decisions and initiate actions, which have been studied extensively by neuroscientists. Some of the experimental observations are widely viewed as implying that free will does not exist or is an illusion (but many philosophers see this as a misunderstanding). Third, psychologists have studied the beliefs that the majority of ordinary people hold about free will and its role in assigning moral responsibility.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will


You may not respect my views. But maybe you can trust Wikipedia.

prinzfavian:


Smiles, I wasn't being sarcastic..
I was sincerely apologizing, I didn't know your stance about God before chipping that in... So I was apologizing for being presumptious...
I do believe there is no such thing as destiny...
Everything that happens to us is as a result of our actions, which describes Freewill... But you claimed is an illusion, so I was just trying tell you its not... But if I may ask, what's your opinion about God?

My opinion about a supreme omnipotent being is irrelevant. I am as clueless as everybody else. The only difference is that I admit it.

I believe in destiny but it is influenced by certain choices we make. In other words, you can alter destiny.

tete7000:


I already told you the Bible emphasises prosperity; not wealth, not riches as the world wants it. 'Prosperity' is the word here. I didn't tell you that the righteous will not prosper here on earth. However, we need to find out the real meaning of prosperity. All the atheist rich people, are they really prospering? Can man prosper without God? Those are the questions that should engage your mind. When you find answers you will probably equally arrive at full meaning of destiny.

My gosh, how brainwashed we are! Forget all the preconditioning u received for a minute and listen to what u r saying. You no longer know what prosper means! Someone who is obviously blessed in this world is not prospering in this world, while someone obviously under punishment is!! Ask yourself for a second, would you be thinking like this if someone hadn't put it in your head before u knew enough to reject it as the nonsense it is.

tete7000:


I already told you the Bible emphasises prosperity; not wealth, not riches as the world wants it. 'Prosperity' is the word here. I didn't tell you that the righteous will not prosper here on earth. However, we need to find out the real meaning of prosperity. All the atheist rich people, are they really prospering? Can man prosper without God? Those are the questions that should engage your mind. When you find answers you will probably equally arrive at full meaning of destiny.

My gosh, how brainwashed we are! Forget all the preconditioning u received for a minute and listen to what u r saying. You no longer know what prosper means! Someone who is obviously blessed in this world is not prospering IN THIS WORLD, while someone obviously under punishment is!! Ask yourself for a second, would you be thinking like this if someone hadn't put it in your head before u knew enough to reject it as the nonsense it is.

Nipeks:



If free will really exists, it will not rely on anything. That will only nullify it as free will. But unfortunately, our choices rely on circumstances beyond our control.
That answers your question.

This shows that you don't understand the concept of freewill itself. Freewill can not exist in relation to a vacuum, Since Freewill is simple the assertion that human have a choice in their course of Actions. You will really need to comprehend this concept since that might be the reason you choose your stance.

You wife did not will the fear out of herself, she relied on you. Key word - Relied.

Please read the analogy again, you are missing the point there, I am not one of the determinants in that scenario, Her experience(military training) is , it simply means i am not a factor to the outcome, her past experiences is.

Neuroscientist and physicists have carried out various experiments. Non of them proves that fee will exists. Some of the experimental observations are widely viewed as implying that free will does not exist or is an illusion.

Below is a quote from Wikipedia. Just saw this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will


You may not respect my views. But maybe you can trust Wikipedia.

This article doesn't in any way disprove Freewill, it only states that certain groups among the scientific community are skeptical of it, while majority of the science community upholds it.
Those that are skeptical has been classified over and over by different groups as lacking understanding of the concept itself.

Research in Quantum physics has revealed that the human mind affects the outcome of our realities, the choices we make we realize according to the strength of our will.

I think you should really try to understand what freewill is all about.

WetinConsignMe:


My gosh, how brainwashed we are! Forget all the preconditioning u received for a minute and listen to what u r saying. You no longer know what prosper means! Someone who is obviously blessed in this world is not prospering IN THIS WORLD, while someone obviously under punishment is!! Ask yourself for a second, would you be thinking like this if someone hadn't put it in your head before u knew enough to reject it as the nonsense it is.

God has used the foolish things of this world to confound those who think they are wise.They look, they can't see; listen, they can't hear; they actually think they know when in the real sense they live and wallow in pitiable ignorance. The mystery is beyond their comprehension.Take care of yourself and what you think you know. I no get your time anymore. Bye!

Nipeks:


My opinion about a supreme omnipotent being is irrelevant. I am as clueless as everybody else. The only difference is that I admit it.

Hmmm, of course it is relevant...
Don't you think that one of the main factor of being clueless about God is the false, wrong, absurd and shameless way most religions of this world has portrayed him?
One is saying he is omnipotent.... How? He can't do all things, He can't lie neither can he make a mistake... So how then is he omnipotent?
They paint him as cruel by saying he will burn people in fire and yet he was greatly displeased with kings in the past that did the same thing by making their sons and daughters pass through fire, isn't that hypocritical?

They say he has predestined everything that happens in everyone's life.... And then we have, the rich, powerful, poor, sick, severely wretched people, mad men and women roaming the market places... And still the Bible say such a God isn't partial... How? In fact, it goes ahead to call him 'Love'... Really?

They say he is of 3 distinct personalities yet just 1 person.... Haa!, how can a father be his own son and also his own holy spirit?

So if you're clueless about such a God, I definitely understand.... And dismissing that such God exist is surely a more reasonable stand than trying to comprehend all those errors.

But really, God does exist and he is doing and will do everything he wills, to clear his name of all the misrepresentations by the religions of this world which isn't making innocent people grasp the true nature of him.

Thanks.

thoth:


This shows that you don't understand the concept of freewill itself. Freewill can not exist in relation to a vacuum, Since Freewill is simple the assertion that human have a choice in their course of Actions. You will really need to comprehend this concept since that might be the reason you choose your stance.

Please read the analogy again, you are missing the point there, I am not one of the determinants in that scenario, Her experience(military training) is , it simply means i am not a factor to the outcome, her past experiences is.

If you think I don't understand the concept of free will, that can only mean that your definition of free will is different from mine. My definition of free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded - Wikipedia.

Unimpeded means unrestricted, independent of any external factor, external factor includes reason because you cannot control reason, it controls you. That proves that All reasonable decisions are not free will.

This article doesn't in any way disprove Freewill, it only states that certain groups among the scientific community are skeptical of it, while majority of the science community upholds it.
Those that are skeptical has been classified over and over by different groups as lacking understanding of the concept itself.

Research in Quantum physics has revealed that the human mind affects the outcome of our realities, the choices we make we realize according to the strength of our will.

I think you should really try to understand what freewill is all about.

The article does not make any conclusion about free will but it made it clear that science frowns against it and I quoted a small section that summarized it.

Can you quote any part of the article that says "majority of the science community upholds it"? That is very dishonest of you. Just say you don't agree with science.

It's either that or your idea of free will is different.

prinzfavian:


Hmmm, of course it is relevant...
Don't you think that one of the main factor of being clueless about God is the false, wrong, absurd and shameless way most religions of this world has portrayed him?
One is saying he is omnipotent.... How? He can't do all things, He can't lie neither can he make a mistake... So how then is he omnipotent?
They paint him as cruel by saying he will burn people in fire and yet he was greatly displeased with kings in the past that did the same thing by making their sons and daughters pass through fire, isn't that hypocritical?

They say he has predestined everything that happens in everyone's life.... And then we have, the rich, powerful, poor, sick, severely wretched people, mad men and women roaming the market places... And still the Bible say such a God isn't partial... How? In fact, it goes ahead to call him 'Love'... Really?

They say he is of 3 distinct personalities yet just 1 person.... Haa!, how can a father be his own son and also his own holy spirit?

So if you're clueless about such a God, I definitely understand.... And dismissing that such God exist is surely a more reasonable stand than trying to comprehend all those errors.

But really, God does exist and he is doing and will do everything he wills, to clear his name of all the misrepresentations by the religions of this world which isn't making innocent people grasp the true nature of him.

Thanks.

Unfortunately, I cannot not just take your word for what it is. I am not capable of ignoring my reasons.

tete7000:


God has used the foolish things of this world to confound those who think they are wise.They look, they can't see; listen, they can't hear; they actually think they know when in the real sense they live and wallow in pitiable ignorance. The mystery is beyond their comprehension.Take care of yourself and what you think you know. I no get your time anymore. Bye!

It is one thing to lie to other people, but to lie to yourself? If u can't even tell the truth that someone who has prospered in this world has prospered in this world?
That's very bad