Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. - Religion (9) - Nairaland
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| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by DeepSight(m): 11:14am On Mar 08, 2010 |
In addition to the foregoing let me say that the minimum that the Christian dogmatist MUST UNCONDITIONALLY accept is that there are many contrary indications within the bible which the non-Christian must doubtless be struck by as standing firmly and obviously against the idea of the Trinity. If the Christian wishes to accept the Trinity, he should do so based on faith and not sell a lie by claiming that there are not eminently clear verses within scripture which emphatically negate the idea that Jesus is God. To claim that these verses do not exist is to be simply dishonest in an extreme degree which is hardly becoming for a Christian. Thus I cannot see the need for the rancour elicited from Christians on this Forum when these verses are pointed out. Does it annoy the Christian to be referred to things within his scripture that he does not like? If so, why? Why should anybody get upset simply because verses which obviously deny the Trinity are pointed out? I would rather have thought that it would behove the Christian to dig deep and seek to see why these seeming contradictions exist – and what can be gainfully absorbed from such. The attitude that returns insults and a circus of irrelevant vulgarities in return for objective reasoning and criticism is honestly and seriously to be deplored. It is worse when such behaviour is championed on account of the prevailing attitude of “Christian Solidarity” which is so nauseating on this Forum. Now look again at the undeniable - 1. Jesus categorically states the Father to be greater than him. Jn. 14:28. Why in heavens name would the Christian feel comfortable directly contradicting Jesus’ own words by insisting that they are equal? If at all the Christian feels no shame in blatantly calling Jesus a liar when he said this – at least the Christian should make an honest attempt to explain what that statement could have connoted IF NOT THAT HE IS CERTAINLY NOT EQUAL TO THE FATHER. Come on guys, the thing is written black and white in plain English, so its not easy to deceive the non-Christian by empty platitudes on this one! 2. He would not state that he worships God - in his words "my God and your God" Viaro attempted once again to belittle the words of Jesus by claiming that “That was not a statement of worship.” But that is beside the point – worship or not – God cannot be said to have a God! – Being God HE is the ultimate. If Jesus claimed to have a God then that positively and completely disqualifies him from being considered God! Aside this what is to be deduced from the act of going on his knees in prayer to God – if not worship? ? ? You see, this matter is downright comical. 3. He would not state clearly that as the son, there are things which remain unknown to him - God is omniscient, no? – Now this is one of the strongest planks and I am at a sincere loss as to how any Christain can validly ignore this. It just emphasizes what I have always said – namely that we have Christians like Viaro who have greater respect for their vocabulary than they do for Jesus own words – which are supposed to be their guiding light. He slaps Jesus this way and that every day, denigrating the man and dismissing his statements and yet calls himself a Christian. It is really difficult for me to comprehend such. Need I explain this one? God is omniscient. Jesus specifically states – “Of that day and hour no one knows – not the angels, nor the son but only the father. The inference is clear even to a toddler – namely that whereas God is omniscient, Jesus has positively asserted that he is NOT omniscient – unless of course we are ready to do unspeakable violence to the word “Omniscience.” Jesus states that he is NOT omniscient and as such he cannot be God. Insisting in the face of this alone, that Jesus is God can only smack of a cultish adherence of an obviously false and contradictory dogma that no sane person can rationalize. 4. He would not be "begotten" Again this is a very firm plank. I do not even believe that the Christian ignores this. God is eternal is the past – namely he has always existed – whereas Jesus is described as “the only begotten” son of God. It makes no difference if he is described as the “first begotten” – the fact simply remains that he was “begotten” and as such came into existence at a point. In no wise can he be said to Eternal in the past as God is: and therefore once again this is an iron-cast argument that shows that Jesus IS NOT God. It is ridiculous for anybody to suggest that he only became “begotten” after the resurrection because of course he is severally referred to as “begotten” even before the crucifixion. So in this there is positively no escape again – Jesus being begotten cannot be God. 5. He would not make the statement in Gethsemane evincing a possible dichotomy of wills within the Godhead ("Nevertheless not as i will but as THOU wilt"  - This statement also shows that he is NOT omnipotent as the Father is said to be.For if he were omnipotent; then his will should not be subordinated to the will of the Father. Again this is so simple and glaring that I remain astonished that peeps could se such clear subordination to a greater diety: and still insist that Jesus is himself that same diety. It is the greatest absurdity in the history of mankind and it begs belief that otherwise intelligent and supposedly educated persons would passionately subscribe to this, whilst denouncing what they see as the “absurdities” of other religions. 6. He would not speak of being forsaken by the Father: being God he would have known the WHOLE script and what it meant. This again seals the point. Now we may divide that statement into two parts - • “My God, my God” – which again shows that he has a God and – • “Why hast thou forsaken me” – which shows again that he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent as if he were the former, he would be aware of the whole script and as such know what it all meant – and if he were the latter, he would have had the power to avert it as he willed in Gethsemane. Now in all honesty, having a look at ALL the above, is there a Christian who can boldly assert that rejection of the belief that Jesus is God is not a position that can be validly taken by the non-Christian? Indeed, is it not clear that the Christian himself must reflect again on all these? For if you will spurn one ground above, what about the others? And by the time you hectically have to think up ways of spurning all the grounds set out above it should be clear to you that you are swimming against the tide and fighting vigorously to deny the words of the bible. In closing I will just say that I am at a loss to understand why given the foregoing, the Christian should imagine that someone like me who rejects the Trinity, is merely doing so to “heckle” or “mock” their religion – as it its blatantly clear that there are recondite issues here. Nuff said. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by InesQor(m): 11:19am On Mar 08, 2010 |
Deep sight, read my previous post and reply before I start responding to yours above. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by DeepSight(m): 11:20am On Mar 08, 2010 |
Ok. . .doing so, now. . .you can read mine in the meantime, and please with an open mind objectively. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by viaro: 11:51am On Mar 08, 2010 |
^^I was waiting for you to get done with your drama, but let me just throw in these bits: Deep Sight: DeepSight, this is not about 'viaro'. I know that all you have been attempting here is simply because I happen to have run out of trying to stomach your idiocy - sorry, it's hard for me to pretend not noticing when you display the arrogant hypocrite you are! What has what I believe have to do with you illiterate deism? Just because you have never once been able to impress anybody (not even yourself) on how you tried to lie your way through with your faceless OOI does not mean all of a sudden you should now base everything on 'viaro' on this subject. You have tried to force-read your deceit into my position previously, I corrected you and thought you would take care to be reasonable - but no, I often make the mistake of thinking there might be hope for conceited fellows like you. So, please enjoy your world: such duplicity is why I have become so very ashamed on your behalf to this very day. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by viaro: 11:52am On Mar 08, 2010 |
Deep Sight: Where have you ever tried reasoning at all? You vroom in here, LIED every so often and end up the idiot you have ever shown yourself until your desperation accentuates your illiteracy - and you ask if that was a reasoned approach? I only humoured you on that summary seeing that you had run out of steam and resorted to your endless repetitions since you have nothing to cover your lying spree. I am just so ashamed of having tried to see you at anytime as a genuine person. Jn 14:28 absolutely contradicts your assertion that the son is equal to the father. It does not - that is why I have often posted you John 5:23 and ancillary verses (Revelation 1:8-11 and 5:13) to see why it is not a contradiction. WHERE have you ever tried a "reasoned approach" to DISCUSS those verses? Instead of discussing them, look at the miserly excuse you tendered: that John 5:23 "is NOT topical"!! Are you thick or doubly dumb?!? You have forever scuttled round that issue and made your illiterate repetitions completely ignorant of those answers - and you come back asking for a "reasoned approach"? How about I say that your assertions on John 14:28 is also "NOT topical" here - would you not be the same consummate twerp who would scream that I was not following a "reasoned approach"? No, you don't discuss them - rather you totally ignore them, run from thread to thread and repost your idiocy all over the place and then wave the victim's card asking others for a "reasoned approach". Dummkopf. If you want a discussion, be willing to calmly address issues free of your drama. I have always been open to reason and never once been able to stomach your pretentions. Your response - you ignore it entirely and seek refuge in a verse in which he says he should be honoured as the father is. I did not ignore it entirely. Rather, John 5:23 is not the only verse I have posted in this and other threads showing the Deity of Christ. I obliged you a discourse here, and you never bothered with what I pointed out there. Neverminding that, I still tried to reason with you... until you completely lost all sanity and started messing up all over the place like a school drop-out! If you had sought to sanely discuss, what would have prevented you from considering the pointers to the Deity of Christ that have been posted? Why did you categorically ignore all those verses, just as karo93 tried to duck them and then scooted away from the same thread he proposed this argument? Let us see you face up to those verses and discuss them sanely and genuinely IF and only IF you actually want to seek a "reasoned approach", and not ignoring them with all your hypocritical theatricals. If your mother demands equal respect as you give your father, does that make her equal to him? Does that make her the head of the house? ? ? Do you have parents? What has brought anyone's mother or father into this? In ESSENCE, a man and woman are EQUAL - inasmuch as they are HUMAN BEINGS. One needs to understand the context and sphere of 'equality' and 'submission', and I also pointed out this issue when you broached the question of 'supremacy'. You have completely been ignoring the context, and that is why you keep running into this cowardly game you repeatedly play. In essential being, both the man and the woman are equal - and this is clear in the sense of their essence and nature: (a) in creation, they are equal - both the man and woman were called 'ADAM' (Gen. 5:2) (b) in marriage relationship, they are equal - they are ONE flesh (Gen. 2:24 and Eph. 5:31) (c) in redemption, they are equal - there is neither male nor female in Christ (Gal. 3:28) These are all spheres where 'equality' exists between man and woman - in their essential nature of being, a woman is as much a human being as is a man! She is not a 'less' human than the man, nor is he more of a sapiens than is the woman. Both of them exist in essence as human beings. So it is in the Godhead - Christ in ESSENCE is DEITY in the very same way as the Father in ESSENCE is DEITY. I have not ignored the issue of John 14:28 in anywise; but I have made clear that as far as their very nature is concerned, in essence Christ is in every sense 'God' as is the Father (which is not something that leads to tritheism). From MyJoe's excerpt, I highlighted the fact that theologians do not stretch the concept of the trinity in the Godhead to the extremes of fundamentalist twerps as you display of yourself - [list] For an adequate understanding of the trinitarian conception of God, the distinctions among the persons of the Trinity must not become so sharp that there seems to be a plurality of gods, nor may these distinctions be swallowed up in an undifferentiated monism.[/list] This is why neither you nor your fellows have ever once faced up to this point about the essential being of Christ which I have made clear on several occasions - for example in my reply to TrueSeeker here where this issue about "ESSENCE" was conspicuous. Besides, I have also discussed other points that you and your fellows use to deny the Deity of Christ, such as the term "begotten" (see this reply for example). But NO - you also categorically ignored that one as well - and then you come back accusing me of your insanity on "reasoned approach"? Your duplicity is what I am verily ashamed of on your behalf! |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by viaro: 12:01pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
Deep Sight: In essence, what is the nature of the "being" between any President and any Governor? Are they HUMAN BEINGS in their essence or not? The clear answer is no; thus your act of ABSOLUTELY IGNORING Jn 14:28 and seeking refuge in the weaker verse which says exactly nothing is at best comical because - You're making an absolute dunce of yourself by ignoring the fact of their ESSENCE!  Please scroll up and choose your poison - you often argue like a complete illiterate who has had to repeat classes until he was kicked outa school! Please come forward and argue the essence of Christ - then you will get really cleaned up from your mud.If you assert that this is not true in contradistinction to Jn 5:23 - THEN: I have explained in summary - AGAIN - above. Follow the links and see that it was not here I first articulated the question of ESSENCE. You have completely and constantly ignored the fact of this point, that is why you have run round in circles and grasping at thin air to circumvallate on John 14:28. If you want me to repeat my explanation on ESSENCE, then you confirm you have never once been reasonable! I have already shown above why Jn. 5:23 is NOT topical. A request to honour him as the Father is honoured does nothing to detract from the unequivocal declaration in Jn 14:28 regarding his subjugation to the Father. What a consummate dimwit you are!! First, you have NOT at anytime discussed the issue of John 5:23 - NOT ONCE. You only dismiss it with your hypocrisy and then come here to say that it is 'NOT topical'! You forget you're the very same idiot who said at one time that John 5:23 was "his delusions"? Second, to say that John 5:23 does not detract from John 14:28 - is that any different from my noting that what you have been arguing does not take anything away from the fact that Jesus Christ is "to receive equal worship as is given to the Father (John 5:23)"?!? Did I not make that point clear much earlier? Dude, even at your best, you the one sham of the decade who's Nairaland's most illiterate braincell! You ignore patent points that have been sorted out, come back repeating your decimal on non-issues, never once consider what others are saying ... and now you only display how hideously hypocritical you can afford to be in your conceit. Well done. The fact remains that you have NEVER even once offered an explanation of Jn:1428. Never! You simply IGNORE it and scamper off to Jn. 5:23 - shockingly forgetting that that either exposes a contradiction in the bible which you must resolve OR as i have asserted - shows up blank given that Jn 5:23 says exactly nothing! Look up again and swallow a rhino this time. Have I discussed the ESSENCE now or not? So please lucidly address this and stop amusing me with puerile boasts of "dealing" with anybody. Eh ... like you were 'somebody' before now? Oh please get lost - you're just a waste.This ain't your high-school play ground you know? I didn't drop outa school like you, so run along and your school pitch. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by InesQor(m): 12:01pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
Viaro, do you know that I haven't even followed this discussion in complete detail? If I had, I would have known you already mentioned the essence of Deity. Which was why I bothered to explain it! Na wa. LOL. In fact, I didn't bother responding to Deep Sight's most recent questions in #256 because understanding my post in #255 will explain everything: the essence of the discussion is in the ontological essence of Christ! Deep Sight, so you already knew this from viaro?  Why are you bringing it up then? I recall nuclearboy accusing you of arguing for the sake of argument, and I think I have been thoroughly convinced! |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by viaro: 12:11pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
InesQor: Initially, it was annoying (not frustrating) to see the way he hypocritically ignored the fact that I had discussed the ESSENCE of the Deity of Christ. This is not the first time DeepSight has displayed his theatricals and amazing vainglory in discussions. Deep Sight, [size=14pt]so you already knew this from viaro? Any wonder why I don't have the stomach to put up with his pretences anymore? Just roundly ignore the dead braincell. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by DeepSight(m): 12:30pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
InesQor: Note that (as you noted in your human example below) this does not make the woman the man or make the man the woman. They remain separate distinct beings occupying different roles. The honest fact remains that even is Jesus is said to have the same nature as God – this says exactly nothing because having the same nature as God is not being God. I state this with certainty because EVEN MERE MAN is said to be built in the God-Like nature – It is said that man is made “in the image of God.” However it remains clear that while we share certain attributes with God (such as the impulse to create for example, or government, or order etc) we do not share ALL his attributes and as such cannot be considered to be God. In this instance it is clear that Jesus even if he has the same nature with God, much as man is also said to have, cannot be called God because he does not have ALL the attributes of God – viz – he plainly admits that he had a beginning, that he is not omniscient. Thus you have to understand that this forms no basis whatsoever for asserting that any similarity in the nature takes away the fact that the Father is said to be greater and pre-eminent: which is in direct and irredeemable contrast to the doctrine of the Trinity which states them to be equal. The Greek word translated "greater" (meizon) does not mean greater in the sense of a higher type of being, but rather Nice to see that you concede that the Greek word indicates “larger, more relevant in position of authority. . .what else is to be understood by greater? Your very use of the phrase “more relevant in sense of position or authority” simple seals my point – for the doctrine of the Trinity claims perfect equality whereas your words negate that clearly. . , Comparing with John 13:16, 15:20 Jesus is saying that the Father is "greater" because the Father's position in Heaven is one of greater dignity and authority than the one the Son occupies on earth. This is why the disciples should rejoice, because he was returning to his exalted place from which he had stooped to conquer. This cannot be accepted as Jesus is still said to have a God EVEN AFTER he had risen to heaven – 1 Peter 1:3. Thus we can see that all these excuses about “he was on earth . . .etc” - are just that – excuses. In revelation it is severally indicated that he receives his authority “from the one who sits on the throne” . . .it is also said that he sits “at the right hand side” of that one. So who is “that one”, might I ask? There is only one humanity (Being) but many individuals (persons). Individuals share in the Being of humanity, and that does not mean that I am you, and you are me — we are different persons with the same single Being. We have various careers, various roles with various levels of authority, but if an alien from Mars relates to us, we are all humanity. THAT is our being, and none of us is less than any other. Great; this only affirms that as you have said – We have various careers, various roles with various levels of authority, – which emphatically shows us to be different beings with different scales or powers. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by InesQor(m): 12:45pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
[s]Clean up your post above, Deep Sight. The quote tags are all messed up.  [/s]Edit: You've done it. having the same nature as God is not being GodWho mentioned nature? Having the same essence as God is not being God? Nature is characteristic, but may not be all-encompassing. Essence is pure and untainted!So don't even talk about man being made in the image of God. Man does not have the essence of God which makes God God. Adam and Eve attempted to get it for themselves, but it didn't go down that way. Thus you have to understand that this forms no basis whatsoever for asserting that any similarity in the nature takes away the fact that the Father is said to be greater and pre-eminent: which is in direct and irredeemable contrast to the doctrine of the Trinity which states them to be equal.Did you not understand, or you are deliberately misconstruing the information? The Father is greater because the Son decided of his own accord to set aside some roles, thus deferring to the Father. But in absolute essence, they are still the same in BEING. If a rich prince decides to dress in rags and mix with the paupers, does that take away his royalty? apparently so, but not so in reality. (I am not referring to the Prince and Pauper classic where there was an exchange, cos in this case there was no exchange, no one replaces the Prince in the palace) If the whole process is a form of "contract" and it is going to terminate in one year, then IF he manages to survive the street life for that ONE YEAR, will he not return to royalty although he had been the prince all along? Of course he will not be able to enjoy the privileges of prince-hood in his contracted pauper state, but he is as much royalty as his FATHER the King is. However, insider information that only princes know, will help him out in his mission. He may also have a couple of trusted guides from the palace who watch his back at times, or provide accurate feedback between the palace and the village. When the commoners are to pay obeisance to the King, will the prince in disguise not do same? It does not make him less in ESSENCE, only in his current ROLE, because he CHOSE to be as such! With this simple example, you should understand the variance between essence and roles of being, I hope, if you are being true to your own understanding. Nice to see that you concede that the Greek word indicates “larger, more relevant in position of authority. . .what else is to be understood by greater? Your very use of the phrase “more relevant in sense of position or authority” simple seals my point – for the doctrine of the Trinity claims perfect equality whereas your words negate that clearly. . ,As for this and the rest of your post, see above. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by DeepSight(m): 12:45pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
viaro: Well sir: If you look at my posts above you will see that I have focused on the subject and not personalities. If i had to mention you inorder to contradict your statements, then my apologies. Frankly i am surprised that my consistent effort to keep the discourse clean and devoid of personal insults is never reciprocated and I sincerely beleive that it has come to it that further discourse with you is injurious your dignity and my dignty and both our sensibilities. I feel embarrased enough at the fact that some of your caustic and unnecessary insults have here and there compelled me to react similarly - for if there was anything i vowed when joining this forum, it was to keep decent. I am thus signing off you: I hope that the objective reader can see within my posts the sncere points i have tried to make. I will not be responding to any such posts from you in Future: unless there emerges some sincerity and civility to redeem what has frankly become an unfortunately and needlessly caustic relationship. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by InesQor(m): 12:59pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
And it seems my illustration of the ESSENCE of man and woman being the same was lost on you, because you mentioned the fact that man is also made in the image of God, and so could be seen in the ESSENCE of God. The Mona Lisa is the most famous iconic painting in the world. I can create an exact replica if I possess computer imaging devices of excellent resolution. That is an IMAGE of the Mona Lisa, it has the nature of Mona Lisa (triggering off the same sensations of awe, fame and beauty), but it is not of the essence of the Mona Lisa. WHY? Because it was not painted by Leonardo Da Vinci. Talking about Essence, the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medusa_%28Leonardo_da_Vinci%29]Medusa[/url] has a greater stand in the scheme of things than does MY Mona Lisa copy. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by Centkaycee(f): 1:11pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
FMK I pity you and your analogy, since you don't believe in d existence of God, I think what you need is a miracle, for God to touch your mouth mentality for you to alright. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by DeepSight(m): 1:21pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
InesQor: I cannot accept this talk about "Essence being the same" when we all know very well the "Essence of God" to include his permanence (Eternal in the past, uncreated, unchangeable) whereas Jesus was "begotten" and thus had a beginning. He is thus not of the "Essence" of God. Again unchangeability is part of the "essence" of God and Jesus DOES NOT have that as he is clearly described to go through several changing states in the process of his "work of redemption" - including at least one state of impurity whilst he supposedly "carried the sin of the world" - thereby necessitating the deduction not only of a changeable nature but also of a stained or impure nature at least at one point; all of these ideas are anathema to the "Essence" of God. Furthermore the very "essence of God" connotes omnipotence and omnipresence, both of which Christ denied having So this excuse about "the essence" . . .is just that. . , another excuse. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by DeepSight(m): 1:25pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
^^^ So in short Inesqor - 1. Jesus does not have the same essence as the Father as shown above AND - 2. Even if he did: that does not make him God anymore than I am you or you are me simply because we both have a human essence, no? Simple. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by InesQor(m): 1:27pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
1. What does it mean to say Jesus is Begotten? Explain and relate this to how you concluded that he cannot have the same essence of God. 2. Unchangeabliity is a part of the essence of God. What is change, Deep Sight? Please explain what you understand by change, using observational frames of reference. 3. Lastly, Furthermore the very "essence of God" connotes omnipotence and omnipresence, both of which Christ denied havingIn my illustration of the prince who chose to become a pauper, would he have held on to his royalty when the other villagers were paying obeisance? No, he would rather have indicated that he was unworthy to have the crown on his head. Christ never denied having omnipotence and omniscience in his ESSENCE, that is a function of his ROLE. It seems you are not getting this point, so I will drop it. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by InesQor(m): 1:30pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
Deep Sight:Nothing was relevantly and/or adequately "shown above", sorry. Jesus has the EXACT same essence as the Father. Deep Sight: We both have the same human essence, makes us human. The Son and the Father have the same divine essence makes them GOD. Mehn! You made more sense on the meta-ethics and philosophy thread than you are making here. Just look at the posts logically!! |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by viaro: 1:36pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
Deep Sight: You're an absolute dummkopf! YOU?!? Keep discourse . . clean?!?  Who was the consummate knucklehead by the username 'Deep Sight' that was mentioning 'viaro' and saying all these - Deep Sight: Which Christian in THIS THREAD has ever called Jesus a LIAR?!? Deep Sight:Where did I ever "slap Jesus this way and that" - and you idiot talk about "irrelevant vulgarities"?!? You were blind to not notice your own vulgarities, no? Deep Sight:Yes - that was so, soooo polite of you, DeepSight. That is why when I use such kinds of expressions to smart you up, you crawl back under cover of your illiterate mega-idiocy to wave a victim's card in our faces like you ever sought to be "clean" in the manner you discuss. Who was the twerp that referred to John 5:23 as "his delusions"?? You sat comfy in your bed-bug ridden mattress (between Nigeria and Dubai) insulting others, even Christ Himself in that manner, and you come back lying through your yellow teeth that you were seeking to keep discussions clean? I hear you. Dunce. Those are just samples from your recent post TODAY alone - nevermind if I have to go back and excerpt other acrid statements in your hypocritical "discourses". You still retain the top seat in being Nairaland's most illiterate braincell. If you want a discussion, you would know how to engage in one, instead of displaying your vainglory and then asking others to turn a blind eye to your retardation. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by viaro: 1:37pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
Deep Sight: (1) The man and woman are the same as far as essence and nature are concerned. It is not 'different roles' that determine the "essence" of any being, for we cannot confuse bewteen the nature of a Being with His engagements in any sphere. (2) Theologians do not stretch the distinctions in the Trinity to such extremes as to suggest tritheism: [list] For an adequate understanding of the trinitarian conception of God, the distinctions among the persons of the Trinity must not become so sharp that there seems to be a plurality of gods, nor may these distinctions be swallowed up in an undifferentiated monism.[/list] (3) 'Different roles' does not take anything from the fact of sameness of divine essence in the one Godhead. This is why the Shema is one mystery that even the best theological exposés may not adequately capture (Job 11:7 & 26:14). Deep Sight: Is having the same nature as a human being prove that such a being is not a human being? Is the essence of an angel prove that the angel is not an angel? Is Christ being God in essence 'prove' that He is not what He is - God? Your denials are sickening. I state this with certainty because EVEN MERE MAN is said to be built in the God-Like nature – It is said that man is made “in the image of God.” However it remains clear that while we share certain attributes with God (such as the impulse to create for example, or government, or order etc) we do not share ALL his attributes and as such cannot be considered to be God. (1) Man is never said anywhere to be a deity in essence. That he is made in the image of God does not mean that he is a 'created deity' in his essential being. (2) Man does not have the attribute of God to be a creator ex nihilo. Anyone could form a government without being a deity - for governments are not 'Deity' in essence. (3) The creation of man does not take anything away from the Creator who Himself is Deity - God. In this instance it is clear that Jesus even if he has the same nature with God, much as man is also said to have, cannot be called God because he does not have ALL the attributes of God – viz – he plainly admits that he had a beginning, that he is not omniscient. (1) Jesus nowhere claims to have had a beginning - please keep your lies to yourself! (2) Jesus is not said to be a created being as is man as far as divine essence is concerned. (3) Humanity and Deity are not the same; for man is essentially human, while Christ had subsisted before time and before ages as Deity - God. Thus you have to understand that this forms no basis whatsoever for asserting that any similarity in the nature takes away the fact that the Father is said to be greater and pre-eminent: which is in direct and irredeemable contrast to the doctrine of the Trinity which states them to be equal. (1) The 'forms' are not presented in Scripture on reductionistic terms - which si what you have done previously, and are now doing again. I noted much earlier that God cannot be reduced to man's fallable rationalism; and the 'similarity' that you claim here is a moot point. (2) The collective testimony of Scripture is that the Father and the Son are in essence Deity. The pronouncement of Christ that the Father is greater than He, does not rest on the question of "essential being" or divine ESSENCE. Nice to see that you concede that the Greek word indicates “larger, more relevant in position of authority. . .what else is to be understood by greater? Your very use of the phrase “more relevant in sense of position or authority” simple seals my point – for the doctrine of the Trinity claims perfect equality whereas your words negate that clearly. . , (1) Position of authority does not deny the divine essence of Christ as Deity. NOT ONCE. A position does not change the essential nature of any Being - for no position in life would change the essence of man from human into something else. So also, no position would change the essential nature of Christ from Deity to anything less than what He is in Himself. (2) That Christ became Man (John 1:14) does not negate the fact of His Deity - which is why both His Humanity and Deity are united in Him in perfect accord. (3) Following from (2) above^^, the question arises - what was the Son of God in His essence BEFORE the Incarnation - was He 'human' or Deity before the Incarnation? If He was not 'human' before the Incarnation, what was His essence? (4) The question of authority is another shining example that extends what I said earlier on supremacy and sovereignty. Christ the Son of God had "authority" over ALL CREATION - including angels who are described as 'Mighty', for they worshipped Him when He stepped into creation (Heb. 1:6). However, in His "authority", He humbled Himself to such a level as to be made "a little lower than the angels" - why? the Bible explains that it was on account of "the suffering of death" (Heb. 2:9). This is a classic example where the Sovereign One condescends to Humility without such display of His Humility taking anything away from His ESSENCE as Deity. This cannot be accepted as Jesus is still said to have a God EVEN AFTER he had risen to heaven – 1 Peter 1:3. But after His resurrection, was Jesus Christ not known as the Alpha and Omega in Revelation 1:8-11? The question rather is: WHAT was the Son of God BEFORE the Incarnation - mere man or Deity in ESSENCE? Thus we can see that all these excuses about “he was on earth . . .etc” - are just that – excuses. No, rather we can see how you cleverly duck germane issues so you can wave your excuses in our faces. In revelation it is severally indicated that he receives his authority “from the one who sits on the throne” . . .it is also said that he sits “at the right hand side” of that one. How does that affect the fact He did not "receive" His ESSENCE as the Alpha and Omega in the same Revelation? Great; this only affirms that as you have said – We have various careers, various roles with various levels of authority, – which emphatically shows us to be different beings with different scales or powers. Do such things as various careers, various roles and different scales of authority change any being from what they are in ESSENCE? Do you cease being "human" when you have no more authority, career or role in life? Do the roles played by anybody - ANY BEING - determine their ESSENCE? |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by Centkaycee(f): 1:39pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
Karo93, Be warned! do not offend the Holy Spirit nor blasphem Him. The sin against Him will never be forgiven you neither in this world nor the world to come. The Bible is never your watch Tower. The Relationship among GOD, JESUS & THE HOLY SPIRIT is not what you can jump into with your Jehova witness mentality & understanding. They are beyond YOU. Canality doesn't reveal it. DON'T DARE THE TRINITY. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by InesQor(m): 1:42pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
Biblical proof that the Son and the Father have the same ESSENCE. (Just one of many scriptures) Joh 14:7 If you had known Me [had learned to recognize Me], you would also have known My Father. From now on, you know Him and have seen Him. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by viaro: 1:49pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
@InesQor, InesQor: "I have also discussed other points that you and your fellows use to deny the Deity of Christ, such as the term "begotten" (see this reply for example). But NO - you also categorically ignored that one as well" ~~ post #260 You already know why he won't explain. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by InesQor(m): 1:58pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
 LOL viaro I get it now.  |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by viaro: 2:02pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
^^ I apologise - my browser is messing up my work, and in a bid to be coherent I've been having to come back and correct obvious typos and laughable mistakes here and there, haha. Happens often when I try to post hyperlinks. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by InesQor(m): 2:04pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
No viaro, it's all right. I understood you clearly, I looked through the posts where you discussed ESSENCE and the term "begotten". Post #260 or so. Thanks! |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by viaro: 2:20pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
^^ I understand, and thank goodness my reply didn't come across muddled for you. Here is something on that same question about "begotten" that I thought the deniers of Christ's Deity might consider - a few questions which I posted in another thread: [list](a) what is the meaning of "only begotten" in reference to Jesus Christ? (b) what is the meaning of "firstbegotten" in reference to Jesus Christ? (c) do you find anyone else described as "only begotten" in the same way as Jesus is? (d) do the terms "only begotten" and "firstbegotten" mean the same things to you? (e) when was Jesus Christ called "the only begotten" - before or after His resurrection?[/list] Some have assumed that the term "begotten" is indicative of Christ having been "created" by God. Regardless the explanations that have been proffered, the same arguments are still advanced by the same folks. This time around, perhaps it is best to now ask them to EXPLAIN and RELATE how that affects the essence of Christ - just as you proposed. The easiest thing under the sun to do is deny and deny and keep denying a simple fact, regardless how many times answers have been proffered. So, here is a point at which we should directly ask these deniers to explicate the very term they have been forever singing about as the mainstay of their arguments. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by DeepSight(m): 3:03pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
InesQor: @ Inesqor - I have a question for you. Do you remember the "breath of life" which God breathed into man, for man to "become a living soul." You remember? Yes. From where did this breath of life come? It came from God, yes? Yes. It forms the "spirit" and thus is the "essence" of man, yes? Yes. So the Essence of man came from the immaterial essence of God?, yes? Yes. Yet would it be correct to state that man is God? There. __________________________________________________________________________ One more example - You are the child of your father and thus have the same human essence as him, yes? Yes. So you are both human, yes? yes. Are you your father? No. __________________________________________________________________________ So please i am not sure you are going anywhere with this "essence" gist. If you will reflect on it you will see that it is neither here nor there because in truth EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS bears the essence and imprint of God, since everything issued from God. That does not make the toad in my backyard God. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by InesQor(m): 3:11pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
@Deep Sight: The Mona Lisa is the work of Da Vinci's hands, it has the imprints of his essence, but only within Da Vinci himself, is the ultimate essence that brought forth that art. That essence cannot be distilled away from Da Vinci. You may study Da Vinci and understand his work like the back of your hands, it does not make you Da Vinci, and you will never be. The creation is a product of the essence of Divinity, it is NOT the essence of Divinity in Himself. @viaro: Yes I would like to see those answers. In fact, I don dey tire for this long gist sef, my brother. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by DeepSight(m): 3:15pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
^^^ But a fellow human being clearly denying omniscience and omnipotence is of the essence of God? You make me tired. We are not going to convince each other. Let's leave it. Cheers. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by DeepSight(m): 3:19pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
^^^ While you are at it just go an reflect again exactly WHERE the breath of life comes from: if not from WITHIN God. It is his very essence that he breathes into us to animate us: Life. I'm tired. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by viaro: 3:38pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
InesQor: You know what? It's no longer a [b]d[/b]iscussion but now a [b]d[/b]rama all on its own. After all is said and done, should we be surprised that they would never attend the core issues pointing to the Deity of Christ? No. You can wait from now to another 'singularity' - don't expect them to provide any answers. NONE. |
| Re: Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. by viaro: 4:00pm On Mar 08, 2010 |
Deep Sight: 'There' what? Did anybody tell you that the created man was DEITY in ESSENCE? Do you know what "essence" is? The same Genesis from which you have tried to draw your logic also uses the very same expression (chay nephesh) for both man and animals - Gen. 1:21 (every 'living creature') and Gen. 2:7 (man became a 'living soul'). In no sense did creation ffrom God translate into DEITY in ESSENCE just because they all came from God. On the other hand, where did the Bible say that God created Christ and breathed into His nostrils so that Christ might become a "(chay nephesh)"? What kind of logic makes this kind of thin grasping for what is not there in the first place? __________________________________________________________________________ Deep Sight: And what does that 'prove'? Has anyone here said that Christ is the entirety of the Trinity in Himself? How does your simplistic logic (which is no logic at all) deny the fact of Christ Deity in His divine essence?? In the first place, Scripture does not tell us that the Father "sired" Christ in eternity past - so what analogy are you drawing here in your very weak attempt to deny the Deity of Christ? __________________________________________________________________________ Deep Sight: That is all the more reason you should pay some attention and go and study the meaning of "essence". No wonder you completely and categorically ignored it after I discussed it in some detail - perhaps indicating you can't handle something which is beyond you, no? Deep Sight: In that case, since everything issued from God and bear His imprint, that makes you DeepSight also DEITY in essence, yes? Dude, you just do not have the faintest clue what is meant by essence. It would have simply helped you if you refrain from arguing what you just have no knowledge about in the slightest. Please go and study the meaning of ESSENCE - then if you think you're up to the discussion, you can proceed from there. All these logical fallacies you propound all in your bid to deny the Deity of Christ are laughable at best.That does not make the toad in my backyard God. But you have said that "EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS bears the essence and imprint of God", no? Then you immediately deny the implication of your own statement?? Hahahaha ... !! Dude, please just zip it. You have never had the foggiest idea what you wanted to argue on this subject, so asserting something and denying it all at once is simply ... okay, laughable! |
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