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Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by joshnes(m): 6:26pm On Jan 04, 2018 |
Ferisidowu:clearly you don't get my point, you just asked the same question I asked. If one is getting in on grace alone and the other on grace-works, will they inherit the same in heaven? |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Nobody: 6:28pm On Jan 04, 2018 |
joshnes: alright so is it Grace +works? |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by joshnes(m): 6:32pm On Jan 04, 2018 |
Ferisidowu:I am asking him myself. |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Nobody: 6:33pm On Jan 04, 2018 |
joshnes:ok |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by joshnes(m): 6:35pm On Jan 04, 2018 |
Ferisidowu:but if you have anything to chip in, I will gladly welcome it. |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Nobody: 6:56pm On Jan 04, 2018 |
joshnes: it's Grace alone |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 9:20pm On Jan 04, 2018 |
joshnes: 1.2.who said so? 3. both with be in heaven with different levels of glory. |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 10:04pm On Jan 04, 2018 |
Ferisidowu:on this you can begin with the Calvinist doctrine of once saved always saved . Oh really, and you can condemn Calvinism ... Yet you claim we are justified by Grace according to God's mercy through the merits of Christ ..actually salvation by grace according to God's mercy through the merits of Christ received by faith in baptism is the historic Christian teaching, Luther simply added alone every where, Calvin mixed predestination into it and the Baptist removed baptism from it. 1. no 2. the Grace that justify is not known to all, it moves to believe. Lolz no wonder you condemn Calvinism, how can the people contemporary to Abraham have faith in the true God which they never knew, were they not idolatersagain arminianism is another invention. if you think God can't be resisted why does the Bible say in Acts 7:51 Stephen tells the Sanhedrin, "You always resist the Holy Spirit!" And what does this change, people contemporary to Abraham that were not given the Grace will never be justified, even if they have the law in their hearts ... The only means to justification is Christ JesusI guess next you'll tell me Abraham also accepted Jesus as personal Lord and saviour. God passes over sins committed in ignorance. you can't accuse people of the sin of unbelief if you already admitted that they were never preached to. Lolz now justification is by works, ryt, and also I understand this your point to mean that Christ isn't the ONLY WAY. Since those contemporary to Abraham can be justified by their works, then 1) it's useless that God called Abraham. you are arguing with yourself. I already told you justification by grace through faith. the verse I quoted is about judgement by works |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Nobody: 10:40pm On Jan 04, 2018 |
[quote author=Ubenedictus post=63874908] the ma man that is justified is already declared righteous, works does not make him righteous rather it is the sacrifice of Christ on the cross of Calvary. t he basis for judgement is works, not faith, that is the basis every one will be judged. God saves us by faith unto good works and will judge us on those works Works cannot condemn a bornagain christian because he has already been justified by God unless you want to tell me God will reverse what he has done. Works will condem unbelievers because their works proves who they really are. ( rotten sinner). Good works does not count in salvation. Matthew 25 A slothful servant is a servant that thinks he is doing something to appease the master because he taught th master was an hard man. That is a man who is not saved, a slave A servant can be casted out from his masters house but a son abides forever. John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. Thou oughtest therefore to have put my moneyI have posted my answer above. When the Son of man shall come in his glory,the sheep of Christ are not goats. Goats are those who are not bornagain. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, I have answered above. 2 Cor. 5:10 , “For we must all appear before the John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. According to the bible there are two resurrection on for the righteous and the other for the unrighteous. Jesus said those that believes in him will never be condemned. Good works is just the fruit of a saved man. Good works is not a requirement for salvation (heaven) It does not improve the grace of God. Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Grace doesn't need human contribution or improvement. It is the totality of the finished work of Christ on the cross of calvary. Nothing can be added or removed. It is perfect. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 1:49am On Jan 06, 2018 |
solite3: one of the lies inherent modern Calvinist teaching is the perchance for creating false dichotomy, you guys always manage to create an either or teaching and the teaching above is an example. now listen. Justification is not just a declaration, when God says something he does it, when God declares the believer justified he makes him truly just because God does not declare falsehood. when I became justified God didn't just proclaim me just, he washed away my sins, granted me the merits of Christ's death, the holy spirit, made me His son and in truth I became just. (this is the first difference BTW historic Christian teachings and the Protestant invention. the Protestants teach that when God justify a person he doesn't really make the person just instead God is only making a declaration). this righteousness is a lived reality, it isn't just a declaration it is a reality in the believer, God grants this righteousness to us by grace, crediting to our account the merits of Jesus and because righteousness is a reality not merely a declaration, the Bible clearly teaches that what we do in this body affect the righteousness we have received some like to think that righteousness is some fixed lump that a believer is given that make him always ok with God, no, no. righteousness is that grace not just by which we are declared just but by which we are actually and truly just. let me explain from scriptures. 1. we are righteous by grace through the merits of Jesus. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile. Romans 3:22 Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 2. after we have received this righteousness we must live for it. it is a lived reality. [b]“He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 1 Peter 2:24 3. to live righteously is the opposition of sinful deeds For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world. Titus 2:11-12 4. righteousness is not just what we are declared to be, it is both a gift, and a pattern of life that we must pursue. But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 5. such that he who practices righteousness is truly righteous Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7 6. he who commit sin has lost righteousness and now is in unrighteousness. However, if righteous people turn from their righteous behavior and start doing sinful things and act like other sinners, should they be allowed to live? No, of course not! All their righteous acts will be forgotten, and they will die for their sins. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of un righteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.[/b] I can go on and on but this is sufficient the point is made. the man who received righteousness by faith must continue in it by works for John says The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous and avoid sin which is opposed to and destroys righteousness. The believer who is made righteous by grace must live righteously by works and avoid sin that bring forth unrighteousness. |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 3:41am On Jan 06, 2018 |
this is what happen when people read invention of men into scriptures, they end up abusing scriptures just to satisfy their invention. solite3:1.yes works cannot justify but the Bible is clear that judgement is based on works and works can condemn. Romans 2:6-8 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE) who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. 2. The slothful servant is not the one trying to appease his Master, the slothful servant is one who doesn't WORK, sloth means unwillingness to work, stop trying to twist it. 3. the parable is clear, goats are those who didn't work even though they had the opportunity. there is no mention of born again there, that passage is clear. the goats are like the slothful servant who refused to work. |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Nuzo1(m): 7:09am On Jan 06, 2018 |
Salvation is a gift. It's been worked for. It's totally the work of Christ of which qualifies us for heaven. No extra work needed only if we believe. Believing involves contrition, confession and conviction. That's why a very sinful man at the death bed can make heaven if just believe. Working out our salvation is totally a different thing. It is what qualifies us for a reward on earth and most importantly in heaven. Paul kept emphasizing on working out ones salvation to Philippians who were already saved. He knew that as humans, they are likely to loose the free give of salvation if it's not continually oiled by good works. Nature abhors vacuum. A man at the death bed who just received Christ has no time to do good or bad works and thereby will easily make heaven. But a man who is fit and accepts Christ is at the danger of loosing his salvation if he does not do good work as empowered by the holy spirit. He will become complacent and will most likely to do bad works by going back to his adamic nature and thereby loosing his salvation. This is where "faith without work is dead" comes to play. That being said, the reward of man who received the free gift of salvation and stops there is far lower than the reward of a man who who received salvation and went ahead to do good works both on earth and in heaven. 1 Like |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 8:09am On Jan 06, 2018 |
solite3: all these simply ignore the fact that faith without works is totally dead and cannot save. Anyone who believes but will not work because he thinks works are unimportant is heading for ruin and eternal damnation because his faith alone will not save him, will not take him to heaven that is exactly how God made it. he justified us by grace through faith so that we may perform the good works he foreordained for us. he who will not work does not have saving faith and will certainly not make it to heaven. That is that importance of works. for those who claim it is not important to work James teaches faith without works is dead. Paul says though circumcision is unimportant keeping the commandments and a Working faith is important. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. gal 5:6 New International Version Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts. 2 core 7:19 and John tells us clearly that if your faith doesn't show forth by love then you are spiritually dead We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not, abideth in death. 1 John 3:14 anyone who told you that works are unimportant is lying to you and teaching you the invention of Calvin |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 8:40am On Jan 06, 2018 |
joshnes: you are the person who is creating this dichotomy, the Bible present heaven both as inheritance and reward. Romans 2:6-8 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE) who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. God repays (reward) with eternal life those who seek glory through good works. |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Nobody: 8:41am On Jan 06, 2018 |
Ubenedictus: lolz the righteousness the elect are justified with is only in Christ, it can't be passed to them, the righteousness they practice no matter how great it is can't justify them. though of a truth , the holy Spirit give them a better life, they not lawless ... anyone who wants the righteousness with which he needs to be justified in himself is trying to cast away Christ |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 10:28am On Jan 06, 2018 |
Nuzo1:I believe on that in bold we are in agreement. but I'll take you to task on something else you speak of works as something extra that is added... on this I disagree. works is not something extra, it is part and parcel of the salvation package, we are justified that we may perform the good works God has foreordained... it is not adding something extra, it is the very thing God expects of the justified |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 10:49am On Jan 06, 2018 |
Ferisidowu: and you make this submission without a single scripture that rebut what I have said. 1. The righteousness in which we are justified is truly Christ's righteousness, but it doesn't simply remain in Christ, it is GIVEN TO US, as grace so it is a lie when you say it can't be passed to us. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile. Romans 3:22 that is the simple truth, the righteousness is truly given to the believer and moreso that righteousness mean he will act rightly Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7 you can't assert anything to the contrary without contradicting scripture and as John says it isn't casting away Christ it is been righteous as he is. |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by joshnes(m): 1:04pm On Jan 06, 2018 |
Ubenedictus:Uben, your point is crystal clear and I agree with you. |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Nobody: 1:35pm On Jan 06, 2018 |
joshnes: then not everyone needs Jesus |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by joshnes(m): 1:39pm On Jan 06, 2018 |
Ferisidowu:can somebody lose their salvation? |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Nobody: 1:41pm On Jan 06, 2018 |
joshnes:it depends on what salvation is.. so to you, what's salvation? |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by joshnes(m): 1:50pm On Jan 06, 2018 |
Ferisidowu:total translation from darkness to light, by grace through faith. Whatever definition you have, I ask can a person lose it? |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Nobody: 1:57pm On Jan 06, 2018 |
joshnes: a person can lose his so called salvation... an elect can't lose his SALVATION |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by joshnes(m): 2:06pm On Jan 06, 2018 |
Ferisidowu:what is an elect's salvation? |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 10:29am On Jan 07, 2018 |
joshnes: my oga so why you just allow me dey sweat for nothing? heee! |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 10:43am On Jan 07, 2018 |
Ferisidowu:I didn't teach this, I have never taught this, and God willing I will never teach this. all who have entered heaven, are entering heaven and will ever enter heaven do so because of the death of Jesus Christ... where we disagree is how it happens, I believe all who received the gospel entered heaven by Grace through faith... I believe those who couldn't Hear the Gospel some may have been saved, again by God's mercy who because of Jesus did not imput past sin done in ignorance all according to grace in Christ. we probably disagree on the last part... I will discuss it you wish but I don't believe in salvation outside Jesus. |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by joshnes(m): 3:29pm On Jan 07, 2018 |
Ubenedictus:it wasn't in vain at all, your points made me go and do some mini studies and now I agree with you. |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 4:01pm On Jan 07, 2018 |
joshnes: thank God and thank you it is very rare today to find anyone who would do research on a matter he is arguing about... I have encountered cases instead where people argued ad infinitum until they almost reached insults. |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by joshnes(m): 4:03pm On Jan 07, 2018 |
Ubenedictus:definitely not me, you did well. |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by jwals: 5:28pm On Jan 07, 2018 |
Goshen360:Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Goshen360(m): 5:30pm On Jan 07, 2018 |
jwals: Your point for quoting me is...? |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by jwals: 5:45pm On Jan 07, 2018 |
Goshen360:The reason for quoting you, is that, I want to know if what you meant was that good works, is not a necessity after salvation? I know that we are justified by faith in christ and how can I show you my faith without works, |
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