Like it has been observed, in every busienss there are the good, the bad and the ugly.
I have shipped several high end vehicles to people I have never met.
I continue to receive orders via recommendations.
However, I understand why somebody would not want to do it,

Pre-order is based upon trust, and there have been several successful transactions here between buyers, and established and trusted Auto Dealers on Nairaland.

Seeing a car in person does not guarantee a problem-free deal. What's important here is doing your homework on the seller, before you part with your money. It's no different from buying on eBay, or other online shop. Not all eBayers or online sellers accept paypal, some accept Google Checkout, direct transfer, BACS etc. I have purchased items online for as long as I can remember, with good results. Not all people I traded with accept Paypal, I just do my due diligence, and all's well.

Listen the solution tomall of this is just exercising some due diligence while carrying out any transaction.The mode of trading "pre-ordering" is not peculiar to nairaland and it is legal.The risk are not higher or much different from the risk encountered in buying real estate in nigeria.The guys that are crying that they were duped by my rekoning are not serious.If you paid money into a bank account and then discovered you were hoodwinked, then naturally you should go back to that bank and intimate them on the situation and see what goes from there.

CHANCEMAN:

Listen the solution tomall of this is just exercising some due diligence while carrying out any transaction.The mode of trading "pre-ordering" is not peculiar to nairaland and it is legal.The risk are not higher or much different from the risk encountered in buying real estate in nigeria.The guys that are crying that they were duped by my rekoning are not serious.If you paid money into a bank account and then discovered you were hoodwinked, then naturally you should go back to that bank and intimate them on the situation and see what goes from there.

You make many strong points CHANCEMAN.

Siena:

Your lack of intelligence is almost frightening - what has your post got to do with this thread? Please, start your own thread, and quit being so ignorant!

@Siena
I think the guy is trying to refer people to a site where they can match names with faces - just in case there is an alledged fraud/fraudster. I dont think he owns or is advertising that website.

I understand, Onwan. But it's pretty annoying when people post unsolicited links within a serious thread, without any sort of explanation. These days, one can't be too careful, and no one knows who owns which site.

OK. I checked on his profile; his own website is: http://www.motortradernigeria.com its an autosales website. Very cool and organised website though.

Siena:

Your lack of intelligence is almost frightening - what has your post got to do with this thread? Please, start your own thread, and quit being so ignorant!

siena,
personally i just ignore any such post inviting people to click on this or that link. i think if we all do the same they will be forced to stop this unwarranted soliciting.

If this was a preemptive meeting to discuss the ramnification of the pre-order business, i'd understand the blaise blaise, lakadaisical response on the part of those involved but crikey . . .


Where is the clarion call to set the records straight? Where is the rallying and mobilisation call of the vigilante team to make sure this does not happen again in future, fingers crossed? Where is the protocol committee to oversee the setting up and monitoring of the modus operandi and code of conduct that needs to be adhered to in this section? Why oh why is the talks reverberating round "the buyers is/were to blame"? Don't people already know that car dealers, are arguably featured highest on ANY category of people to be least trusted hence the Caveat Emptor phrase? [s]Flame me

but you'd have to catch me first [/s]


Yes there are bad eggs amongst all groups of people, but if there was a code of conduct regarding this preorder ish FOR EXAMPLE - NEVER PAY MORE THAN 30% UPFRONT, EXPECT DELIVERY WITHIN 28 DAYS BAR DELAYS CAUSED BY "ACT OF GOD", WOULD RAWE45 HAD FORKED OUT OVER 66% UPFRONT AND THEN THE REMAINDER EVEN BEFORE THE CAR LANDED? WOULD THE DEALER HAD GOTTEN AWAY WITH NOT PROVIDING PICTURES AS ONWAN ^{THE KANGAROO COURT JUDGE} WAS ADMONISHING? WOULD HE STILL BE AWAITING THE CAR 35 DAYS AFTER HE WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE RECEIVED IT NA WA OH Wey dat Ziontrain when you need am sef, this would have been his forte

na wa o

apart from peeps like Emperoh who i can call at anytime of the day, Inspired (spoken to him b4), Jesoul and one other chap i cant remember, i wont trust my cash with anybody in the name of pre-order.

na wa o. so 2m don disappear?

Emperoh, abeg go and look at that fx45 on display on agariautos thread and make we talk later

I think we are laying too much emphasis on "buyer beware". Most of us here are internet veterans. It will be extremely difficult for a scammer to scam us out of one thousand not to talk of one million naira. So people like us are not the scammer's target.

The scammer's main targets are new internet users who are not yet aware that the internet is a jungle (new users are coming online everyday). Such people will most likely not know who is who in the auto section and may go for the dealer that offers the cheapest price.

A few years ago, Amazon was invaded by Asian scammers. Their method of operation is this: They will list a $5000 Plasma TV or some other expensive electronics for $1000. When you contact them to confirm that it is the real thing, they will tell you "yes". They will then tell you that they only accept payment via wire transfer or Western Union to avoid paying Amazon's 15% commission. Suprisingly, a lot of American and British citizens fell for this scam.

To stop such scammers, Amazon stopped everybody from being able to sell expensive electronics on their site. In order to sell electronics now, you must go through a high level of clearance before being approved.

It should be noted that Amazon was quick to act on the problem because in some cases, they were forced to refund the people that were scammed. Granted this is not the case on NL. That notwithstanding, the owners and admins should find a way to prevent scammers from getting a foot hold here.

In the Amazon example mentioned above, there are a few "RED FLAGS" that the buyers should have been aware of. Anyone asking you to pay them so they can "avoid paying the appropriate service fees" should have been avoided. If they are trying to circumvent Amazon, don't you think at some point they will try to circumvent you too? If buyers and sellers err on the side of caution, 9 times out of 10 they will be fine. Remember, most con artist will have something fishy about them or their business.

@ Pelpelly,

I didn't want to bore everybody with all the details. But in the Amazon case, the scammers operated in several ways. If you refuse to wire money to them, they will tell you to go ahead and pay them through Amazon. Once they have collected enough money, they will close that Amazon account and open a new one.

In fact this was the category that gave Amazon the most problem because under their insurance programme called "A-Z Guarantee" they are liable in such cases. But if you pay for a product outside the Amazon payment system, they will not refund you if a problem arises. The same thing applies to eBay.

I am not trying to cut buyers any slacks. We are only looking for ways to make this place un-attractive for scam artists.

I'm not sure where to start, but it suffices to say that I was probably the first dealer to offer the preorder service here on NL a couple of years ago.  It pains me immensely that some characters have tried to spoil this avenue for honest dealers.

Preorders are typically done by established sellers who know their onions as far as car import/export is concerned.

In addition to the BUYERS BEWARE phenomenon, the sellers also need to take some concrete steps in ensuring that the preorder mechanism continues to thrive on NL.  There have been suggestions that dealers/sellers be "certified" by the Admin after some sort of verification of sellers' credentials.  Some even suggested some sort of identification of certified sellers' userids. 

The seller certification idea is a good one, but it has a peculiar problem.  It requires actions including maintenance activities on the part of the Admin. These activities will invariably cost the Admin some time and money which none of the advocates of the certification idea is addressing. Who will pay for the NL staff that will maintain the certification process? Remember that NL is a free forum.

In as much as no one is funding the suggested certification of sellers and we have no indication that the Admin is ready to take on such a venture, we are left with the idea of self policing wherein:

[list]
[li]Every preorder Ad should contain seller pertinent verifiable details[/li]
[li]Link to successful pre-order sales[/li]
[li]Possible Link to Nigerian based lawyer that will handle agreements[/li]
[/list]

I invite more forumites to add more items to the list.  Hopefully this might help to reduce scams.  If a buyer decides to deal with a seller who does not provide verifiable information, then where the blame lies would be obvious, in the event of a scam.

Here's what I believe is the first NL preorder March 2008  https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=121200.msg2089244#msg2089244

Cheers,
J

@ Baba Jenju,

The seller certification idea is a good one, but it has a peculiar problem. It requires actions including maintenance activities on the part of the Admin. These activities will invariably cost the Admin some time and money which none of the advocates of the certification idea is addressing. Who will pay for the NL staff that will maintain the certification process? Remember that NL is a free forum.

If NL introduces a verification system, some dealers may not want to go through the rigours of getting verified. The numbers that agree may be small and manageable. More importantly, the admin will not go after dealers asking for information rather they will provide it to him.

The process is actually relatively simple. Having been an active participant in e-Commerce for about 10 years, here is what I know about the verification process:

Bank Account Verification: Case in Point - Paypal
If you wish to join Paypal, one of the information they ask for is your bank account. Once you provide it, they will send a random small amount of money (eg $0.97, $0.58 etc). They will then ask you how much money they sent to your account. If you give the correct answer, your Paypal account will be activated.

Address Verification: Case in Point - Amazon and Google Adsense
Address verification works the same way as account verification. If you wish to join Amazon or Google Adsense, they will ask for your address. Thereafter, they send a PIN to that address. Once you receive it, you come back to their site and enter the PIN to activate your account.

Clearly, the methods outlined above are highly automated. But we can achieve the same goals in a low tech way. There are less than 50 regular dealers in the auto section. Maybe 25 or less will agree to go through the verification process. Bearing that in mind, I will volunteer to be part of the verification team if implemented.

@Bizbooks,

I completely agree with you that a verification/certification system would be most beneficial and I too will participate, given the opportunity.

My suggestions above was made under the assumption that the Admin has not yet made any commitment to the said verification system. If he decides to implement verification, then my suggestions become invalid.

Cheers,
J

@ Baba Jenju,

I'm glad you read my post but it has now disappeared. I don't know what happened to it. Though I saved a copy, I will not re-post it since it may have violated some rule. One of the points I made there is that "I will volunteer to be part of the verification team if implemented".

chief jenju has well spoken.

don Baba Jenju,
I dey hail ooh
good to hear from you
HAKUNA MATATA
@topic

As long as there's nothing in place to checkmate this ugly trend, this site will ever be vulnerable, and it's only the Admin's policy can put this to an end.

it's more of a buyer beware market-if you ask me.

Igwe.:

[color=#006600] don Baba Jenju,
I dey hail ooh
good to here from you
HAKUNA MATATA

Igwe, me sef dey hail o. How una dey na? All is well on this end.   

@Bizbooks, if we were to assume that the Admin is not willing to implement a new policy unique to the Autosection vis-a-vis dealer certification/verification, what are your thoughts on how dealers can police themselves?  Could dealers of preordered vehicles agree to provide certain information with all their Ads? If so, what? If you and others have new and fresh ideas, lets hear them.

@George_D, I agree with you that the concept of BUYERS BEWARE is definitely a significant factor in curbing this scams.


Cheers,
J

@ Baba Jenju,

If we decide to do self policing, we may try a regional plan. By that I mean:
Instead of being certified by the NL admins, we will appoint regional certifiers for the US, UK, Lagos, Abuja and any other locations necessary. Each of these regional certifiers must be an established dealer.

If you wish to be a certified dealer, you submit the necessary documents to your regional certifier. The essence of the certification method is that it will weed out scammers. A scammer will think twice before providing information that may lead to his apprehension.

If one cries too much at a funeral he may be accused of knowing what killed the deceased. I have said enough on this topic and will stop now.

Maybe I should take you back to where this post started.Why should anyone pay for a good he or she has not seen except online without ensuring the safety of hi/her money when you can go to an auto shop in naija and DO CASH N CARRY? I lost five thousand dollars ($5000) two years ago to my own brother-in-law(I repeat brother-in-law) as my wifey's elder brother who resides in Chicago.It almost scattered for marriage and everybody blamed me for sending money to somebody I know very well who actually came down for my wedding from his base.My father in law actually told me that why didnt I go and buy my car rather than paying for a car I saw online through his disgraceful son.He promised to pay the money back but of course I cannot collect or ask him for it cos he is not the one that collected the dough.I have since bought two solid cars from cotonou afterwards without any form of regrets and I have vowed not to be involved in ANYTHING without seeing what am paying for.This is my own personal take and it is based on experience,if you need a car whether on NL or anywhere,go to where the car is parked,inspect your car(with or without mechanic) and bring your good home.It is even better to buy a lemon that you can still fix than pay for what you may never see at the end of the day as it is not possible to know a real deal from a fake.The ones that are claiming to be real, what if tomorrow they decide to change?What if they are just trying to gain peoples trust now and strike later?Am not casting aspersions,I said wHat if?CASH N CARRY is for me all the way, shikena!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice idea Biz brooks

Yes, Bizbooks makes more sense here.

Sweetie
if you want to make any snide remarks do so on your own.

Thanks

drhappy,
the same cotonou you went to buy a car is where people go and get swindled. whether online or not truth is that a dealer that wants to defraud people can still do so-unless the buyer is also smart enough to carry out due dilligence before commiting his money.

Due diligence is necessary for any form of transaction and business relationship. Buyers should also know that any deal that is too good to be true is exactly that: TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE!

I will narrate my experience here which I have refrained from doing until now.

I got in touch with PTC Consults and made enquiry for a car. We exchanged a lot of emails and phone calls. However, warning signals started flashing when he gave me a price which I was well aware was below the advertised cost for the particular car we were discussing. I drew his attention to this and he tried unsuccessfully to convince me that it would be possible for him to bring the particular car in at the cost he had given me. I was not convinced because he would have to spend over a million of his own money to get the car to my house. There are no such genuine businessmen as everyone wants to make profit without which they would not even be in the business.

What did I do? I gave him another option: If he could bring the car in at his own expense, without any deposit from me, he gets extra 300K over the agreed price! Of course he rejected the offer and tried several antics to get me to believe in him and transfer 50% of his price to him. That did not happen and the communications terminated at that.

So beware when someone gives you a price which is absolutely unrealistic! He has an ulterior motive and it does not take a genius to know what that motive would be.

I think dealers should really come together to sanitize the situation and have a failsafe method of certifying honest dealers among themselves.

I think the Mods here also need to take some of the blame. In every other forum i belong to, in any section where goods are sold, there's always a sticky post listing the dos and donts, giving helpful tips on how to avoid being scammed.

There is no such sticky post on Nairaland. And that's shocking.

This is a big lapse IMHO, and it needs to be fixed ASAP.

Also a referral system could be put in place to help identify the good guys.


I think BizBook's idea is sound. So if an untrusted guy puts up a new Auto post, the Mod could insert a one line post below his offer "Buyer discretion is advised. XXXX has not yet been certified by Nairaland"
That will encourage the salesman to get certified (or what you guys call it).

In the meantime, what do we do about the scam carried out by Ptconsults?

BizBooks:

@ Baba Jenju,

If NL introduces a verification system, some dealers may not want to go through the rigours of getting verified. The numbers that agree may be small and manageable. More importantly, the admin will not go after dealers asking for information rather they will provide it to him.

The process is actually relatively simple. Having been an active participant in e-Commerce for about 10 years, here is what I know about the verification process:

Bank Account Verification: Case in Point - Paypal
If you wish to join Paypal, one of the information they ask for is your bank account. Once you provide it, they will send a random small amount of money (eg $0.97, $0.58 etc). They will then ask you how much money they sent to your account. If you give the correct answer, your Paypal account will be activated.

Address Verification: Case in Point - Amazon and Google Adsense
Address verification works the same way as account verification. If you wish to join Amazon or Google Adsense, they will ask for your address. Thereafter, they send a PIN to that address. Once you receive it, you come back to their site and enter the PIN to activate your account.

Clearly, the methods outlined above are highly automated. But we can achieve the same goals in a low tech way. There are less than 50 regular dealers in the auto section. Maybe 25 or less will agree to go through the verification process. Bearing that in mind, I will volunteer to be part of the verification team if implemented.

@BizBooks,

You should also take in to consideration the Nigeria factors that would affect these verification steps, as there is no organization from the top a DL can be gotten in Nigeria for just 5k ( if the person needs just 1 )and that's practically all needed to open an account in most banks the Utility bills could be gotten easily.

The truth is it all lies with the Buyer although this will mean New sellers might have a hard time getting ground but I personally would say its the buyers duty to ensure his money is safe. Even if Its Pre-Order or buying at a car shop its the buyers duty to ensure he gets what he / she is paying for cause he / she will suffer / enjoy the aftermath

My 2 cents,