spoilt:

"Anecdote and placebo effect. Never have faith healing and prayer been shown to work in a controlled test" environment

@nferyn
what did you expect? for God to come down in the labs because the scientists wanted him to?

spoilt:

@nferyn
i believe in miracles, i have seen them happen. its okay if you don't believe. you're entiltled actually. but i know when something extra-ordinary happens to me and i can't ascribe it to man.

spoilt:

and oh, as for baal, he was shamed a long time ago.need i repeat the story?

dblock:

I feel great already knowing that if what you are saying is true, it would mean that we humans and animals alike live in a world that was created by Nobody for no reason but by accident. That every bit of detail on my body was created by accident and was created for no known purpose.

dblock:

That the fact that we can breath, and function for as long as 100years was just an accident and each and every part of our body is just randomly created for no reason.
The lithosphere is perfectly situated above Magma and the Hydrosphere perfectly functions along with the Hydrosphere by accident and was randomly created.

dblock:

Our very existence has no purpose, and our everyday endeavors are furtile for we shall be deceased and the only effect we shall have is that of our memory, destruction or creation and possible intellectual Input.
We are only a part of a Grand accident, and if life was to cease on this planet, there might be nowhere where there is life for a long period of time, unless of course there is another accident.
Your signature states that Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but the alternatives offered by modern physicists seem somewhat "Bogus to me"

dblock:

Christianity is a religion not a scientific discovery, Any lack of evidence that it may have act to it's disadvantage but doesn't necessarily disprove anything.

dblock:

For Christianity became of Age when Christ arrived on earth and Christs's existence could onlypossibly be recorded in books and in stories*(Which They were)*

dblock:

What sort of evidence do yoy require Nferyn?
Maybe some Video footage, in MP4, Mpeg4, MOv, WMA, 3gp, 3gp2 formats? ( don't you think those weren't invented yet)

dblock:

There are significant forces all around that are seperated from scientifical forces because no known explanation can correct them.

dblock:

Christianity has it's uncertainties, such as the books that were excluded from the bible, the Mary Magdalene conspiracy etc. But to say that the religion is a sham is a different story.

dblock:

I cannot prove that christianity is a true faith,

dblock:

but I can prove that science cannot explain Biology beyond classroom science and that Religion is Paramount

. . . imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.

I'll take you up on that challenge. Fire away.

spoilt:

@ nferyn

there is a God and the bible is his word to man.
No one has ever successfully refuted the Bible. Many mock the Bible but no one who has done in-depth research, honestly examining the evidence for the Bible's inspiration and truthfulness, has been able to disprove the Bible.

spoilt:

Who but God could produce such a book?

spoilt:

Hundreds of prophecies of future events were recorded in the Bible -- some of them centuries before fulfillment -- and not one detail of any of them has ever failed!

spoilt:

Could man -- especially dozens of men, writing in different countries and different times -- foretell the future so accurately? Never! Only God could do such a tremendous thing.

spoilt:

No one but God could reveal the future in such detail, often hundreds of years before the events occurred. Not only the future of cities, nations, and the world, but also concerning the future birth, ministry, death, and resurrection of Christ.

spoilt:

The chance that all these predictions could come true exactly as written is beyond most human's comprehension, giving to any honest enquirer undeniable proof that God inspired the writing of the prophecies in the Bible.

nferyn:

I could start with ripping apart the creation myth of Genesis and the idiocy of Noah's global flood if you indulge me, but then before I start, I would like to know whether or not you're willing to listen.

But, just in case you're not reading the Bible literally, what do you consider inspiration and truthfulness?
Different authors well versed in the practice of midrash
Midrash anyone?
Maybe you could give a specific example of fulfilled prophecy that isn't so incredibly vague that it could mean anything?
We first need to establish the value of these prophecies, before we can begin attributing it to God
Please read up on midrash, you'll understand that the prophecies foretold in the Torah concerning Jesus were a very common way of establishing authority within the Jewish community.
Begging the question, are we not? Foregive me that I won't take your word for it.

sage:

Nferyn

Many prophesies in the bible were foretold and written way b/4 it happened and it fulfilled.

This aint no joke. It screams inspiration.

Il come back and post some for you.

sage:

In the meantime get as much of accurate dates of the bible as you can. I want you to get to know the dates in which the bible books were written. Do all research neccesary. I don't want you to start arguing dates in a desperate bid to discredit clear prophesies that were fulfilled clearly hundreds of years after they were written.

sage:

If you do just that You are in for a surprise and a big one a that

dblock:

I'll go ahead and argue for the existence of God and thus that Christianity is pragmatic.

Findings to suggest the existence of God;

*The following findings question scientifically theories*


[li]Cosmological, Teleological and Ontological arguments are incomplete and are unexplained without an entity such as God[/li]
[li]Anthropic Arguments explain our existence but again is incomplete if a Deity such as God isn't interleaved into the equation[/li]

[li]Moral Arguments argue that the existence of objective morality depends on the existence of God.
[/li] (Thus implying that an orderly civilization is orderly for it's own sake if God didn't exist)

dblock:

God has intervened in history on numerous occasions, but God has never intervened unless it's part of the Grand Plan which is described in Great detail in the Bible.

The Bible points out that people like you(Nferyn) will argue against Christianity and lead people astray

dblock:

*It also foretells the destruction of civilization gradually

dblock:

*It foretells Natural disasters occurring

dblock:

*Incurable diseases

dblock:

You cannot disprove the existence of God for all that yo have pointed out were foretold in the Bible
You ask for evidence akin to scientifically evidence.

dblock:

The only things that you will find are those that happened historically in the time of Christ and before and spiritual intervention.

dblock:

Your story of the puddle explains in favour of atheism and science why we are not necessarily here for a purpose but does not take note that; If the puddle(Us) existed for no reason it would mean that the Universe existed for no reason, the variables existed for no reason and everything before esidted for no reason and thus it is more questionable than the existence of Santa Claus

dblock:

Here is a little story to make it easier to understand

If it is said that a Broom exists for no reason and that the wood that created the broom created it by a random equation

Then how could the wood also be created for no reason if it was used for the creation of the broom

dblock:

This^^^^ might be a little hard to grasp so I'll rephrase. The Big Bang is an accident as explained by science, but an accident occurs for no reason and it's re precautions were created for no reason but occurred because of the accident and nothing more. If we are created for no reason it would have to mean that the variables that created us were also created for no reason

dblock:

but if the variables were created for no reason and the subatomic particles that may have created the variables were also created for no initial reason then it would mean that the whole equation was nothing more than an accident that was also created for no reason and so on. This is sending signals to me that scientificla theories are only in the middle of a Book and that SCIENCE HAS PROVIDED ANY THEORY OF ANY SORT FOR PAGE 1. What came first?, nothing, what created nothing

dblock:

Another Accident

dblock:

I'll rather devote
my life to worshiping Santa Claus than to half explained questionable theories

nferyn:



. . . And I rather not waste my limited time worshiping anything at all. Life is a precious gift that's better not wasted on something idiotic like worshiping some imaginary being.

batu:

@All-the-resident-Atheists-in-the-House: babaearly, KAG, nferyn etc

Shalom! I have read all your arguements, and request for data of the efficacy of faith in Christ or existence of God. Now, here is one of the valid data from the only valid source; afterall logic suggests that a phenomenom operates according to a set of evidence.

Romans 1 vs 20-22:
(20): For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead (i.eDivinity); so that they are without excuse;
(21): Because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
(22): Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. (this is particularly poignant in this topic)

Now listen to the explanation of the verses:
God's Creation reveals two things about Him: His eternal power and Divinity. Creation reveals that God is powerful; hence man is obligated to Him and the fact that He is God.

Importantly and very relevant here is the phrase that "they are Without excuse" in verse 20: this means that no man or woman including Richard Dawkins, philosopher, atheist, secular humanist, Epicurian or Stoic etc, will be able to stand before God and say that he/she turned away from God because God did not give any light or evidence of His existence. ALL men/women have had the revelation of God from creation.

This Cosmological evidence for the existence of God from cause and effect is one of the logical arguements for the existence of God. As everything that exists must have an adequate cause; an all powerful and intelligent God is the ONLY adequate cause to explain the universe. The scriptures identifies that "cause" as the creative power of the Almighty God.(Ref: Genesis 1:1, Romans 1:19,20, Psalms 94:9)

Final word: It does not matter whether we, in our wisdom, believe in God or not; we are still going to be Judged by God. Additionally, it does not matter whether you believe in the scriptures or the Bible verses I quoted/referenced or not; we are all going to be judged by the very words of God in the Bible.
It is just like standing in path of a 40ft-high tidal wave and saying you do not believe in the wave or it's power; you are still going to be swept away whether you believe or not. Sounds like 'blind dogma' and rethorics to you(?),,,,,,,,,,well it might sound like that, but it's not! Peace.

nferyn:


A God of the Gaps anyone?

big_bumper:

And us Christians would rather neither waste our limited time worshipping Richard Dawkins, nor agencies in biological entities that have certain level of awareness nor methodological nasturalism.

end of

sage:

Hey Nferyn

Why i said you should get acquinted with those dates is because those prophesies were made, written and completed in advance and hundreds of years before. I know you would want to discredit the bible even in the face of truth.

sage:

For example, do you know when Jeruselem was destroyed by Babylonians and when Cyrus ruled in Medo-Persia and When the Bible book of Isiah was written and Completed?

sage:

I have many examples of bible prophecy that got fufilled hundreds of years after it was written. I know in a bid to discredit the truth you will start to argue that the only explanation would be that those bible passages must have been written hundreds of years after they were actually completed because you just wont believe that it happened just as it was prophesied.

sage:

But guess what? it did because the prophesies were inspired

drbelloim:

It is true that it is a sham, though this is but a difficult topic to speak about. in actual sense all these talks are about this being call "in the english translation" called Jesus.
Jesus is real he existed and lived for an appointred time and was taken up to heaven. he had some deciples that were to continue his message. now this is were the big question is,

What we have now as christianity (another purely English or British word) is what Jesus or the followers preached, because of the following
1. Jesus never met most of those that wrote the gospel we have today ( don't foeget that the Gospel according to Matthew was not written by the desciple Matthew, nor Mark by Mark and cetainly nor John by John. these writers accordingly in most cases never visite Jerusalem in all their lives.

2. there are so many instances were it was recorded thet Jesus went to so so place and he preached the gospel etc, in as much as he really did preached the gospel no one in actual sense has ever seen the gospel that he preached " the Gospel of Jesus" n any text form.

3. tha Bible as we have it today was NEVER seen by Jesus nor has he any approval for it, tha commandements of the old testament have been smashed by the famous "let him who is without sin cast the fast stone" statement, which in actual sense destroys his statement of " i came not to destroy the law but to fulfil"

4. now cames the creeds - , this was in the year 325 at the First Council of Nicaea, Alexandria etc, all meaning mixture of original practise with Idolatory, please refer - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

5. Church on sunday, no sabbath, differences in the number of books in catholic and protestan bibles ( which inevitably means one of them will go to hell according to the last verses of the book of Revelations for either adding (catholics) or reducing(protestants)

now comes the Jehova's witness, Ah.
6
7
there are so many things to say , think we will finissh it later.