Seun:
From the title of this thread, it looks as if Winner01 is conceding that his God doesn't have the ability to use evidence and reason to convince every atheist in the world that he actually exists. Apparently his God isn't clever enough to persuade rational skeptics. If Charles Darwin, a mere man, could convince the vast majority of skeptics that they are apes, why can't winner01's God merely convince them that He exists?

It's not why can't he?
It's "Why won't he"

He won't cos, he doesn't have to.

You think he reckons that much with fools?

Mind you, only fools and apes are convinced by Charles Darwin.

Any man who believes the proposition actually needs help with his mental faculty.

If you were not a disgrace to education,
The earth rotates to cause day and night,
The male reproductive organ is a perfect fit for the females,
The brain detects harmful substances from just smell and taste,
Evaporation exists to make for a perfect water cycle,
When plants eject Oxygen, animals take it in and vice versa,
There exists terminal Velocity in fluids that prevent raindrops from hitting humans with a destructive momentum,
The DNA contains one of the most complex codes,

These are few of the millions of things a rational person would consider and be more than convinced that there must be an author.

Yet you're there wallowing in foolishness saying you, and your family are monkeys.

Mental blindness is a disease of the worst order. Goodluck coping with it.

What is our world coming to? Has Christians read post No 360, we have an atheist preaching out of the bible .

Here we witness Budaatum standing on the atheist pulpit warning Christians to turn the other cheek and to be kind and loving as these atheist swine rob them of their precious pearls and mock, insult and ridicule their God and Jesus.

Budaatum strongly appeals to Christians to stand with their hands behind their backs while atheist trolls mock God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and by direct implication all Christians should surrender to evil.

What I see in post No 360 is well worn cheap psychology commonly used by atheists to prepare their targets for slaughter. Christians beware, satan can also read the bible, he can appear as light.

ScienceWatch:
What is our world coming to? Has Christians read post No 360, we have an atheist preaching out of the bible .

Here we witness Budaatum standing on the atheist pulpit warning Christians to turn the other cheek and to be kind and loving as these atheist swine rob them of their precious pearls and mock, insult and ridicule their God and Jesus.

Budaatum strongly appeals to Christians to stand with their hands behind their backs while atheist trolls mock God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and by direct implication all Christians should surrender to evil.

What I see in post No 360 is well worn cheap psychology commonly used by atheists to prepare their targets for slaughter. Christians beware, satan can also read the bible, he can appear as light.

Shame on you, where do you get the idea that satan can appear as light? Are the Christians you know so blind that they can't differentiate between darkness and light?

Buda is preaching absolutely nothing to you. Buda is not your Lord Jesus Christ nor did she write the Bible. Perhaps you might serve yourself better by actually reading it instead of relying on the twaddle preached to you by your mentor!

I, buda, categorically mock you, sc!

rekinomtla:


Christians that lie are bad christians, they suppose to not lie as they been commanded. Atheists have no such command hence why most lie without giving it a second thought.

Christians lie heavily more than the Atheists because Christians have already been promised that no matter how many times they lie, All they have to do is go inside their room and ask God for forgiveness n thus they become white as snow. Same goes with murder and stealing and etc

This is why Christians are very deadly people.

awesomeJ:

It's not why can't he?
It's "Why won't he"

He won't cos, he doesn't have to.

You think he reckons that much with fools?

Mind you, only fools and apes are convinced by Charles Darwin.

Any man who believes the proposition actually needs help with his mental faculty.

If you were not a disgrace to education,
The earth rotates to cause day and night,
The male reproductive organ is a perfect fit for the females,
The brain detects harmful substances from just smell and taste,
Evaporation exists to make for a perfect water cycle,
When plants eject Oxygen, animals take it in and vice versa,
There exists terminal Velocity in fluids that prevent raindrops from hitting humans with a destructive momentum,
The DNA contains one of the most complex codes,

These are few of the millions of things a rational person would consider and be more than convinced that there must be an author.

Yet you're there wallowing in foolishness saying you, and your family are monkeys.

Mental blindness is a disease of the worst order. Goodluck coping with it.

Even though am not an Atheist.



I KNOW THAT THERE'S NO CORE EVIDENCE THAT GOD EXISTS.

PrecisionFx:


Christians lie heavily more than the Atheists because Christians have already been promised that no matter how many times they lie, All they have to do is go inside their room and ask God for forgiveness n thus they become white as snow. Same goes with murder and stealing and etc

This is why Christians are very deadly people.

Those are the christians that become atheists. They eventually come to believe they just apes who invented morality. Thats why most atheists believe morality is subjective and is an invention of humanity. That the belief that murder, stealing etc is wrong is just an invention of soceity, in their reality there's nothing objectively wrong with murder, rape, pedophilia etc.

rekinomtla:


Those are the christians that become atheists. They eventually come to believe they just apes who invented morality. Thats why most atheists believe morality is subjective and is an invention of humanity. That the belief that murder, stealing etc is wrong is just an invention of soceity, in their reality there's nothing objectively wrong with murder, rape, pedophilia etc.

Don't be silly! What do you mean by "atheists believe that there's nothing wrong with murder, rape, paedophilia"? Are you suggesting that just because I am an atheist, and according to you, believe that morally is subjective, it's therefore ok for you to murder me, or rape me or screw my underage daughter, and that I should wait for society to decide it's not okay before I decide I'd rather you didn't?

You seriously need to have your head checked and stop typing words you don't really know the meaning of or haven't thought about at all!

budaatum:

Don't be silly! What do you mean by "atheists believe that there's nothing wrong with murder, rape, paedophilia"? Are you suggesting that just because I am an atheist, and according to you, believe that morally is subjective, it's therefore ok for you to murder me, or rape me or screw my underage daughter, and that I should wait for society to decide it's not okay before I decide I'd rather you didn't?

Stop being silly, I specifically said atheists believe there's nothing objectively wrong. You for some weird reason left out the word objective when you misquoted me so that you could twist my words to mean what you want it to mean. Nowhere did I say atheists are OK with criminals abusing their children. I said they see nothing objectively wrong with pedophilia or murder or rape or anything else for that matter.

You seriously need to have your head checked and stop typing words you don't really know the meaning of or haven't thought about at all!

Put your reading glasses on next time you before you attack strawmans.

ScienceWatch:
Good point. Charles Darwin was very convincing and so was Richard Dawkins when he convinced a gathering of atheists that they were all once fish.

What is this world coming to.

Atheism is adept at brainwashing gullible people.

Just look how atheism has convinced popular atheist author Dan Barker that something can come from nothing and that" through natural selection a car can turn into an airplane."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK2yNkTuJkY

so not only are we apes that came from fish but apparently our cars can evolve into airplanes thanks to natural selection.

PrecisionFx:



Nah, there is Nothing like bad Christians.

All Christians lie. .

))"Let the weak say I am strong"

Some even added "Let the poor say I am rich"

rekinomtla:


Those are the christians that become atheists. They eventually come to believe they just apes who invented morality. Thats why most atheists believe morality is subjective and is an invention of humanity. That the belief that murder, stealing etc is wrong is just an invention of soceity, in their reality there's nothing objectively wrong with murder, rape, pedophilia etc.

""Those are the christians""

They are Christians and their understanding about ultimate forgiveness was taught to them by the religion Christianity.. Simple.

"" atheists believe morality is subjective and is an invention of humanity""

Morality is an invention of man, Only a self inflicted blind man does not know or sees this. Morality differs from village to village, tribe to tribe, nation to nation.

For example it is an Abomination in Igbo culture for someone to marry his or her cousin, But in Fulani culture, it is quite normal.

Back in the days, It was normal in the old calabar (Ibibio and Efik tribes) to kill twins, but in those same time it was an Abomination to kill twins in Igbo land.


It is an Abomination for someone to marry their blood brother or sister in Nigeria, But in China it is normal to 2 siblings to get married and have children together.

In the past, Wen a man dies in Igbo land, And he has a wife n children, The wife isn't allowed to marry outside the family. One of the dead man's brother will marry the widow and she will stillgive birth to more legitimate children for his dead husband, It was a norm. But now it has become an Abomination.

The list of examples is endless.

Each people on earth make their rules, laws, They decide what to call good or evil.





"" in their reality there's nothing objectively wrong with murder, rape, pedophilia ""

It seems that u were an Atheist before.

hopefulLandlord:

))"Let the weak say I am strong"
Some even added "Let the poor say I am rich"

.

rekinomtla:


Those are the christians that become atheists. They eventually come to believe they just apes who invented morality. Thats why most atheists believe morality is subjective and is an invention of humanity. That the belief that murder, stealing etc is wrong is just an invention of soceity, in their reality there's nothing objectively wrong with murder, rape, pedophilia etc.

Your God ordered people to not only murder others but to carry out genocide according to the bible, he also ordered his chosen men to rape people in the bible, the Koran saw nothing wrong with Mohammed marrying a 9 years old child. So with God all these vices you listed were permissible.

PrecisionFx:


""Those are the christians""

They are Christians and their understanding about ultimate forgiveness was taught to them by the religion Christianity.. Simple.

"" atheists believe morality is subjective and is an invention of humanity""

Morality is an invention of man, Only a self inflicted blind man does not know or sees this. Morality differs from village to village, tribe to tribe, nation to nation.

For example it is an Abomination in Igbo culture for someone to marry his or her cousin, But in Fulani culture, it is quite normal.

Back in the days, It was normal in the old calabar (Ibibio and Efik tribes) to kill twins, but in those same time it was an Abomination to kill twins in Igbo land.


It is an Abomination for someone to marry their blood brother or sister in Nigeria, But in China it is normal to 2 siblings to get married and have children together.

In the past, Wen a man dies in Igbo land, And he has a wife n children, The wife isn't allowed to marry outside the family. One of the dead man's brother will marry the widow and she will stillgive birth to more legitimate children for his dead husband, It was a norm. But now it has become an Abomination.

The list of examples is endless.

Each people on earth make their rules, laws, They decide what to call good or evil.





"" in their reality there's nothing objectively wrong with murder, rape, pedophilia ""

It seems that u were an Atheist before.

Thanks for explaining why atheists and supposedly non-atheists like yourself believe morality is an invention and that "there's nothing objectively wrong with murder, rape, pedophilia etc."

dalaman:


Your God ordered people to not only murder others but to carry out genocide according to the bible, he also ordered his chosen men to rape people in the bible, the Koran saw nothing wrong with Mohammed marrying a 9 years old child. So with God all these vices you listed were permissible.

Why is it that every I mention what atheists believe about morality they get so defensive? Usually replying by confirming what I said about their beliefs about morality but at the same time trying to convince me that morality is all subjective?

winner01:
I read it and it makes sense. It will be your personal experience, it will be mocked and ridiculed. Your god would be called petty wanting to prove anything to you. he'll be called wicked for not proving to others. But I understand you.

Now try to understand that this thread is the only trying to prove that whatever evidence you provide (for those who ask you) can be rationalized or mocked if it can't be rationalized.

This is the point I have been trying to make,what serves as evidence to one person my seem foolish to the other so the only way to get around it is for "God" to reveal himself to everyone if that happens,no one needs to assume anything or convince anyone rather everyone will be saying the same thing,unless that happens you would always have atheists,agnostics and different faiths and even different denominations and tenets within the same fairh

rekinomtla:


Atheism is adept at brainwashing gullible people.

Just look how atheism has convinced popular atheist author Dan Barker that something can come from nothing and that" through natural selection a car can turn into an airplane."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK2yNkTuJkY

so not only are we apes that came from fish but apparently our cars can evolve into airplanes thanks to natural selection.

ROTFL ( rolling on the floor laughing)
What a MOCKERY !
When atheists mock God and Jesus, they end up mocking themselves for comic relief.
Can you see why atheists revival meetings and leadership conferences always draw tiny groups of followers, while Christian revival meetings overfill the worlds largest Olympic stadiums worldwide ?
Only the criminally minded would enjoy practising the satanic doctrines embedded in the horrific ATHEISTS TRAINING MANUAL. This manual effectively prepares the disciples mind for the practical devastation they will be called on to unleash on an unsuspecting world.
When I closely re-examine atheist Budaatum's preaching here to appeal to all Christians to surrender to the brutal and cowardly onslaught from atheist swine, the hairs raise on my neck as he uses Holy Scripture to deceive his chosen target into submission.
Budaatum's tactics is nothing new, these tactics have been used for thousands of years including the tactics mentioned above by the esteemed Rekinomtla.

CHRISTIANS ARE NOT PUSHOVERS, THEY HAVE SUPREME POWER BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUALY CONNECTED to the greatest spirit known to mankind.

rekinomtla:


Thanks for explaining why atheists and supposedly non-atheists like yourself believe morality is an invention and that "there's nothing objectively wrong with murder, rape, pedophilia etc."

He is an atheist who's only disguise is a different label to appease a deluded ego. If you study the two page Atheist Training Manual you will see why they are chronic liars.

rekinomtla:


Why is it that every I mention what atheists believe about morality they get so defensive? Usually replying by confirming what I said about their beliefs about morality but at the same time trying to convince me that morality is all subjective?

You've not show how morality is objective at all. You've only said it.

rekinomtla:


Stop being silly, I specifically said atheists believe there's nothing objectively wrong. You for some weird reason left out the word objective when you misquoted me so that you could twist my words to mean what you want it to mean. Nowhere did I say atheists are OK with criminals abusing their children. I said they see nothing objectively wrong with pedophilia or murder or rape or anything else for that matter.

Put your reading glasses on next time you before you attack strawmans.

"Nothing objectively wrong" ! Does that even mean anything?

Either way you wish put it. Pray tell where objectivity or subjectivity comes into you killing me, or raping me or my daughter and my not finding it wrong. If I don't like you doing those things to me, do you think I'd like to do them to you and find it okay, just because I am an atheist?

The point is that whether objectively or subjectively right or wrong, not many people, atheist or not, would like those things done to one, and people sure don't willy nilly go about doing them to others despite the news one hears of such doings!

I strongly advice that you go learn what is actually meant when morals are said to be objectively and subjectively derived instead of throwing words around in such a way that shows you are parroting what you've heard other equally ignorant people say.

dalaman:


You've not show how morality is objective at all. You've only said it.

It was never my intention to show morality was objective, I never even said it was in any of my posts here. I merely stated what some atheists believe about morality. So far all atheists here have agreed with me about what they believe about morals. They just seem to be bother about someone stating their position for some reason.

rekinomtla:


It was never my intention to show morality was objective, I never even said it was in any of my posts here. I merely stated what some atheists believe about morality. So far all atheists here have agreed with me about what they believe about morals. They just seem to be bother about someone stating their position for some reason.

I've shown you that morality is not objective, cos even with God slavery, genocide, incest etc were all allowed.

rekinomtla:


Why is it that every I mention what atheists believe about morality they get so defensive? Usually replying by confirming what I said about their beliefs about morality but at the same time trying to convince me that morality is all subjective?

Because you don't understand the words you yourself utter! All morality is determined by subjective human beings. This is the reason why even in the bible what is ok at some point in time is no more permissible now, and some things that aren't permissible now were permissible in the past. We may then objectify that morality, that is, make it absolute, but it does start off with subjective human beings!

Garry Goldberg says it better than I can so I'll just copy and paste perhaps that might help you understand. He is an atheist, mind.

An Essay On Objective Vs Subjective Morality

By Barry Goldberg

Morality — the system or method by which we determine whether actions are “good” or “bad” — can either be “objective” (a.k.a. “absolute”) or “subjective” (a.k.a. “relative”). Objective or absolute morality is morality based on universal principles that everybody agrees on and that do not change over time or from one culture to another, whereas subjective or relative morality is determined differently by different groups and is subject to change over time and in different places and cultures. Now, theists and atheists alike claim to be able to determine right from wrong, good from bad, but what type of morality can each group actually claim to have? Absolute or relative?

Let’s start with atheists. Now most atheists get their sense of “right” and “wrong” from the realization that other people are human beings the same as they are, and are therefore deserving of the exact same rights and respect as themselves. “People are people” may sound like a simple tautology, but it’s objectively true and it’s the core principle that provides atheists with the objective morality that lets them condemn slavery, murder, robbery, lying, etc. Now, this isn’t to say that all atheists are good people, since we all have free will and can decide whether to be good or bad, but at least atheists have something objective by which they can make value judgments in the first place.

What about theists? Well, they tend to rely more on wholly subjective morality to make value judgments for the following reasons:

Different theists believe in different Gods, each of which is said to have given different moral laws for us to follow. So, right there, theistic morality is wholly subjective based on which God you believe in.
Even within a single God belief (Christianity, say), there are tons and tons of different denominations and sects who all interpret the supposed “word of God” in different ways from a purely doctrinal standpoint. So, once again, even within the Christian faith, theistic morality is wholly subjective based on which particular sect or denomination you belong to.
Even within a single sect or denomination, it’s pretty much guaranteed that different preachers or even individual members will have their own specific interpretations as to just what their God wants them to do. Should you shun homosexuals or welcome them? Should you donate money to homeless people or is that just encouraging bad habits? Do women really need to be subject to their husbands’ will or not? Is it enough to just accept Jesus into your heart, or do you actually need to do good deeds and repent for your sins? Is it really harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, or is that just a metaphor? Does “turn the other cheek” mean you can’t own a gun for self-defense? Did God really just promise to “answer prayers” (and sometimes the answer is “no”) or did he actually promise to give “whatsoever we ask for in faith”? Is lusting after a woman in your heart really the same as committing adultery, or was Jesus just being metaphorical again? What’s the best way to “love thy neighbor as thyself” while still preventing transgender people from using the bathroom they feel most comfortable in? Is it OK to vote for somebody who claims to share your values if he talks about sexually assaulting women, mocks disabled people and lies all the time? What, actually, would Jesus do? And so on and so forth. Thus, theistic morality is wholly subjective based on the individual beliefs of each particular theist.

For theists that claim to get their morality from holy scriptures written thousands of years ago, many of the oldest commandments and moral codes from those books no longer apply today. The explanation for this is usually that those commandments were given for a specific group of people, that the culture and socio-economic conditions back then were different than they are today and/or that some sort of “new covenant” made those old commandments obsolete. It was OK to own slaves back then, but not today. It was commanded that disobedient children should be stoned to death back then, but we don’t need to follow that commandment today. Jews were required to keep kosher, but later Christians didn’t need to. All of which is to say that theistic morality can actually change over time and is wholly subjective based on the particular people to whom the moral commandments were given.
Now, keep in mind what I said earlier about atheists basing their morality on objective principles. Because these principles are objective, theists are capable of perceiving them as well. In fact, this is what allows, say, Christians to decide which parts of the Bible to follow in the first place and which parts should be ignored or reinterpreted away. The problem is, though, that many theists allow these objective moral principles to be overwhelmed by the teachings of their particular religion to the point where they are willing to discriminate against other people simply because this is what they have been taught is correct. Without the teachings of their religion they may never feel it right to, say, kill an infidel, or deny homosexuals the right to marry or treat other people as property. But because they have been indoctrinated to accept the relative morality provided by their religion, they end up chucking objective morality right out the window.

Now this isn’t to say that all theists are bad people or incapable of making moral judgments. After all, just because a moral principle is relative doesn’t mean it is wrong. But it does mean that their sense of right and wrong is at the whim of their religious indoctrination and this is why a lot of otherwise good people can be convinced to do some very bad things (or, as once put it, “With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”) In other words, without a source of objective morals to rely on, theists can only do what they are told is right, regardless of whether it actually is right.

rekinomtla:


Atheism is adept at brainwashing gullible people.

Just look how atheism has convinced popular atheist author Dan Barker that something can come from nothing and that" through natural selection a car can turn into an airplane."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK2yNkTuJkY

so not only are we apes that came from fish but apparently our cars can evolve into airplanes thanks to natural selection.

Have you heard about the Barber that said he can't believe there is a God?

The Barber :

There was a man who went to a barber shop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed. As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation. They talked about so many things and various subjects. When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said: “I don’t believe that God exists.” “Why do you say that?” asked the customer. “Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn’t exist. Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can’t imagine a loving a God who would allow all of these things.”

The customer thought for a moment, but didn’t respond because he didn’t want to start an argument. The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop. Just after he left the barber shop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard. He looked dirty and unkempt. The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber: “You know what? Barbers do not exist.”
"How can you say that?" asked the surprised barber. “I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!”
“No!” the customer exclaimed. “Barbers don't exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside.” “
The Barber said, "Ah, but barbers DO exist! What happens is, people do not come to me.”
“Exactly!”- affirmed the customer. “That’s the point! God, too, DOES exist! What happens, is, people don’t go to Him and do not look for him.

rekinomtla:


It was never my intention to show morality was objective, I never even said it was in any of my posts here. I merely stated what some atheists believe about morality. So far all atheists here have agreed with me about what they believe about morals. They just seem to be bother about someone stating their position for some reason.

You strawman it, to borrow your word rekinomtla. And its the misuse of it that's annoying. Couple that with the fact that it's part of some long held erroneous view of morality itself, we can't help but jump on you.

rekinomtla:


Thanks for explaining why atheists and supposedly non-atheists like yourself believe morality is an invention [s]and that "there's nothing objectively wrong with murder, rape, pedophilia etc."[/s]

See, here you go again. If I were to say morally was invented by God and handed to Moses, would I be so wrong?

Now go read what was handed to Moses and see how much of it we have discarded already! Does that not show that is is not absolute, but relative?

budaatum:

"Nothing objectively wrong" ! Does that even mean anything?

Either way you wish put it. Pray tell where objectivity or subjectivity comes into you killing me, or raping me or my daughter and my not finding it wrong. If I don't like you doing those things to me, do you think I'd like to do them to you and find it okay, just because I am an atheist?

The point is that whether objectively or subjectively right or wrong, not many people, atheist or not, would like those things done to one, and people sure don't willy nilly go about doing them to others despite the news one hears of such doings!

I strongly advice that you go learn what is actually meant when morals are said to be objectively and subjectively derived instead of throwing words around in such a way that shows you are parroting what you've heard other equally ignorant people say.

Go read my post again or just quote (or misquote like before) where I said atheist are ok with people abusing them or their children. I strongly advise you to stop tackling strawmans when replying to someone.

ScienceWatch:
He is an atheist who's only disguise is a different label to appease a deluded ego. If you study the two page Atheist Training Manual you will see why they are chronic liars.

Atheists do that, claim (lie) they not atheists so they can aviod any counter arguments or criticism theists present when refuting their misrepresentations of religion, science, morality etc.

budaatum:

Because you don't understand the words you yourself utter! All morality is determined by subjective human beings. This is the reason why even in the bible what is ok at some point in time is no more permissible now, and some things that aren't permissible now were permissible in the past. We may then objectify that morality, that is, make it absolute, but it does start off with subjective human beings!

Garry Goldberg says it better than I can so I'll just copy and paste perhaps that might help you understand. He is an atheist, mind.

Some of Gary Goldberg's arguments remind me of the tactics used by the Gay and Lesbian Movement to legitimize their immoral demands and their rights to marry in a Christian church. They used the same arguments to gain position as pastors to confuse and befuddle the sensibilities of entire congregations.

Only a madman can claim that the 10 Commandments are subjective morality and therefore subject to change at the whims of mere man.

I do think that your brief explanation made more sense than the mental gymnastics and copious ramblings of Gary Goldberg.

dalaman:


I've shown you that morality is not objective, cos even with God slavery, genocide, incest etc were all allowed.

I've already discussed this with you and other atheists before, I have no intention of repeating myself or trying to convince you morality is objective or that all your arguments for relativism, subjectivism (whatever you want to called it) is flawed and fallacious. I'm merely stating the atheist position on morality, which funny enough most atheist so far have agreed with.

Can’t we deal with the actual topic?

budaatum:

See, here you go again. If I were to say morally was invented by God and handed to Moses, would I be so wrong?

Now go read what was handed to Moses and see how much of it we have discarded already! Does that not show that is is not absolute, but relative?

I suggest you stop reading articles by atheist apologists such as Garry Goldberg. Even a Wikipedia page does better job than him. Like him you confusing objective morality with absolute morality.