budaatum:

I told you your sole intention on opening this thread was to "my god is better than yours", or didn't I? And I repeatedly said that it is difficult for you to accept evidence that opposes your position. You fail to accept any evidence that refutes your claim and have concluded your assertion is therefore valid. Kingebukasblog tried doing the same in a thread where he would be the defendant, judge and jury and we treated his stupidity with the scorn he deserved. Expect your thread to be treated the same way. Or read the counter narratives already presented to that claim. Those with eyes see.

I think you miss the point. I wasn't referring to my God or any god.

To make this clearer, I challenge you or any atheist here to provide even the smallest of evidences that any other country have democides that magnitude of atheistic countries that have ever existed. I appreciate any evidence provided.

budaatum:



You are incorrect in thinking religion shapes outlook. Your error stems from the biggest lie you Yahweists have bought into, that "God created you in it's own image". It is actually the other way round, your outlook defines your religion and builds your society.

Human societies have always created their gods in their own image, and according to their very own understanding. And religion is created to align you, the masses, to that created image of god. That's why some call it opium!

Europe was alway religious, winner, even now! Those who rule need religion to control their masses and would hardly abandon that control. But they allow their religions to evolve, which is why they progress. When their religious beliefs become rigid beliefs, and do not evolve over time, the dark ages is the result and death and decay sets in. That is the current situation in Nigeria, and which will only change when an reorientation of the contents in people's head occurs. A 4000-2000 year old understanding cannot be superior to current understanding. Societies that dwell in the past and refuse to evolve, die!

Please be aware that you are free to believe whatever you want to believe, and no one has a duty to educate you. That duty is your's and you don't have to take it on if you don't want to. You seem to not have sufficient knowledge of the history of certain aspects of development of societies and nations. If I'm not wrong, I think you already have some sociological knowledge. Though, I think it's rather of the basic sort, but it will be adequate for you to understand the sociological aspect of history, which I advise that you immerse your head in. It is my opinion that you are intelligent enough to have your eyes opened if you but want them to open. Though, I could be wrong.

Lol, naso. I'll create a thread on this soon, and as usual, back it with evidence.

hahn:


Where is the answer?

Johnydon would answer that better. He asked the question.

winner01:
I think you miss the point. I wasn't referring to my God or any god.

To make this clearer, I challenge you or any atheist here to provide even the smallest of evidences that any other country have democides that magnitude of atheistic countries that have ever existed. I appreciate any evidence provided.

Stop claiming one misses the point when one merely disagrees with you! I told you in the beginning that this thread was pointless since it was just another 'your god is better than everyone else's god' thread. You protested at the time, but here you are with your true colours exposed trying to engage me in such an argument! The reason I said it was pointless was that any evidence that either side provides would be called crap by the other. And trying to prove anything to a person who is willing to believe things based on their faith regardless of the evidence, is stupid.

Do you know how many people died in Latin America when the Spaniards landed there? Or would you claim the Spaniards did not go to Latin America in the name of God, or were not religious? How about the many people carried away as slaves from the coast of Africa by Christians? How about the numerous purges and crusades in Europe, specifically in the name of God? How about the human sacrifices in what became Latin America? You did after all claim you didn't mean your god, so do they count towards deaths caused by religion too? Lets also add deaths in China during the periods when Taoism and Confucianism was their religion, and the deaths caused during the Arabic slave trades, they after all did have a religion; and the numerous deaths during the expansion of the Roman Empire and those between what became the Greek states. They too had religions with gods, so shall we say religion or god killed people then too? How about the numerous deaths in even Nigeria during the wars between the Muslim south and the Southern pagans, or those amongst the Yorubas, who all had religion? Do those count? Or are the numbers not big enough for you? I bet you would claim those terrorists killing people all over the world today are Muslims, and that they are killing people in the name of Allah, but you would likely point out that those who kill in the name of God are not true God followers. Go to any prison in any nation today and count how many religious people you would find in jail for murdering someone. Would you not find more people who believe in a god in prison than atheists? Even a simple record of killings of other human beings done in any country on any day of the year would have been committed by religious people if only for the fact that religious people out number those who are not religious by a significant amount. Yet you are quick to believe what religious apologetics have presented to you are deaths caused by atheists because it suits the narrative you wish to believe!

Your claim that atheists nations have killed more people than religious ones is false and relies on spurious uneducated evidence. The truth is that people have instigated killings for their own selfish ends and blamed their gods or no-gods for those killings. A classical example of this exists in the Bible itself. Despite it being written that God told people to kill others, the truth is that no god told anyone anything of the sort and people have simply attempted to justify their own actions by claiming God told them to kill people. When Bush and Blair said God told them to invade Iraq, we treated them with the derision that they deserved and should treat such historical claims with the same derision that they deserve.

Go read some history winner, and stop believing things you have no evidence for.

Educate yourself by going though this List of wars by death toll.
Work out how many of the wars had atheists on either side. Then tell me which has religion as a reason for the wars, and the deaths.

This is how intelligent people reason, but discount for the fact that we count better in modern times.

Who Kills More, Religion or Atheism?
by Brian Dunning

Hide that Bible in your pocket as the guard hustles you down the snowy road on your way to eventual death in Stalin's Gulag, for today's subject is the debate over whether more people throughout history have been killed in the name of religion, or in the name of atheism.

Atheist authors like Christopher Hitchens, Michael Shermer, and Sam Harris are always debating religious authors like Dinesh D'Souza, William Dembski, and Alister McGrath about whether or not God exists, or whether or not religion is good for the world. And, as predictably as the sun rises, these debates nearly always devolve into the argument of which side is responsible for the greatest death toll throughout history. Which is a more terrible killer: religious fundamentalism, or the lack of religion?

Christians charge that the most killing in history has come from modern atheist regimes. Adolf Hitler led Germany during World War II when he executed six million Jews in the Holocaust, three million Poles, three million Russian prisoners of war, and as many as eight million others throughout Europe. Joseph Stalin was the General Secretary of the Soviet Union following the Russian Revolution until his death after World War II. Between 10 and 20 million Soviets and German prisoners of war died under his regime, depending on how many famine victims you count, from Gulags, execution, and forced resettlement. Mao Zedong, who led China for more than a quarter of a century following World War II, created the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution programs which collectively killed unknown tens of millions of Chinese, most of them in public executions and violent clashes. Pol Pot led the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia during the 1970's, when as many as 2 million Cambodians, or as much as 20% of the population, died from execution, disease and starvation.

History is full of uncounted massacres by armies carrying a religious banner, though most such episodes were in ancient times with much less efficient killing technology and microscopically smaller populations. The number of religious exterminations of entire villages throughout history is innumerable, though most had body counts only in the hundreds or thousands. Alexander the Great is estimated to have executed a million. 11th century Crusades killed half a million Jews and Muslims. Genghis Khan's massacres of entire populations of cities probably totaled a million. The Aztecs once slaughtered 100,000 prisoners over four days. An unknown number, probably in the millions, died in the Devil's Wind action in Colonial India. Up to four million Hindus, Sikhs, and Muslims died in post-Colonial India. The Ottoman Empire massacred two million Armenians over the years. Franco's Spanish Civil War killed a hundred thousand. A million have died in Rwanda, half a million in Darfur. And Christian vs. Muslim violence has obviously dominated our headlines for a decade, totaling somewhere in seven figures.

So who has been the worst throughout history: atheist regimes or religious regimes? Obviously the big numbers come from the 20th century superpowers (China, Russia, Germany) so the answer depends on how you classify those. And this is where the meat of these debates is usually found, splitting hairs on which regime is atheist, which is merely secular, which is non-Christian and thus fair game to be called atheist. Hitchens points out that Stalin's government had all the trappings of religion, including Orwell's totalitarian theocracy, and thus it's merely a play on words to say that it was not religious. Pol Pot was raised a Buddhist monk who grew up to execute Buddhist monks, along with anyone else he could lay his hands on. Whole books have been written on the occult underpinnings of Nazi Germany, the symbology of the Norse gods, to say nothing of the claims that Hitler was a Christian, Hitler was a Jew, and his own writings expressing the kinship he felt with the Muslims. A favorite counterpoint raised by Christian debaters is that these despots practiced Social Darwinism and were thus atheists by definition. In summary, the winner of these debates is the one who can convince the other that the big 20th century genocidal maniacs were motivated either by religion or by a desire to destroy religion. The entire debate is the logical fallacy of the excluded middle.

Here's the thing. If you write a book called God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything, you sell a lot of books. If you write a book called What's So Great About Christianity on the evils of atheism, you also sell a lot of books. If you say that neither extremist viewpoint makes any sense, you end up doing a podcast and working as a greeter at Wal-Mart directing customers to the section where they sell Hitchens and D'Souza books. The truth is less incisive, it's less inflammatory, it raises no ire, and it draws no audience.

And that truth, as I've said time and time again, is that people are people. No matter what segment of society you look at, you'll find good people and you'll find bad people. You'll even find, as has been said, that the line between good and evil cuts through every human heart. Certainly there are people in the news who kill in the name of religion, but just because they kill in the name of religion doesn't really mean they kill because of religion. The Islamic militants who cut off Nick Berg's head are not nice men who would have otherwise been his best friend, if it weren't for their religious convictions forcing them into this grievous act. They are base murderers, and they should be punished accordingly, I don't care whether they go to church or not. Killers don't really kill because of their religion. Neither does a lack of religious convictions cause one to run wild in the streets with a bloody axe and a torch. Religion is a convenient banner for many to carry, but there are plenty of other banners available as well, and if it wasn't religion, they'd do their deeds under some other justification, if they care to even have one. The real reason they do their evil deeds is that they're human. Humans are very smart, very capable; and when we want something, we generally find some way to get it, even if that means killing someone or committing genocide.

By doing this episode, I'm going to be called an apologist for atheist genocide. My dismissal of the entire argument as pointless and fallacious will be interpreted as a dodge from advocating a weak position. So go ahead and post that as a comment on Skeptoid.com, if you're still convinced that this is argument that can ever have a useful conclusion. I'm convinced that arguing either side is merely an opportunistic way to tingle sensitive nerves and sell a lot of books. And, I'm convinced that any discussion of the religious causes of genocide is a divisive distraction from the more worthwhile investigation into the true cultural and psychological causes. We are human beings, and we need to understand our human motivations.

So I am no longer going to participate in the childish debate of what religion has killed more people in history, because it doesn't matter. The way I see it, you might as well debate what color underpants are worn by the largest number of killers, and try to draw a causal relationship there as well. Religion does not cause you to kill people, and it certainly doesn't prevent you from killing people. Let's stop pretending that it does either.

budaatum:
This is how intelligent people reason, but discount for the fact that we count better in modern times.

EXCELLENT! Ride on my friend, let them know that religion has course so much Holocaust in times past until now,and that true Christians have remained TOTALLY neutral! The first attribute of REAL Christianity is neutrality during clashes so if you're an atheist and you believe in neutrality during wars then you're not too far away from REAL Christianity! The ONLY difference is "MIND CONTROL" all which atheists hated with a passion,but whoever is trying to reason with another person is all the same seizing the opportunity of turning the person away from his/her former thoughts and resolutions which is tantamount to MIND CONTROL!

budaatum:

Stop claiming one misses the point when one merely disagrees with you! I told you in the beginning that this thread was pointless since it was just another 'your god is better than everyone else's god thread. You protested at the time, but here you are with your true colours exposed trying to engage me in such an argument! The reason I said it was pointless was that any evidence that either side provides would be called crap by the other. And trying to prove anything to a person who is willing to believe things based on their faith regardless of the evidence, is stupid.

You missed the point and were talking about something else entirely. I'm not trying to prove my God to you, superiority or anything of sort. I'm simply trying to let you have a look at the facts. In my threads, I gave numbers, graphs and charts as well as references on democide caused by religion and democide caused by atheism. The evidences were not in favour of atheism even though atheism has had very little time in power. This is not a matter of sentiments or mere words. Give me evidence and lets see, let everyone see it. Create a thread for this and give valid evidences. I already did.

I got many of my evidences from STATISTICS OF DEMOCIDE for instance to create the threads below:
https://www.nairaland.com/2988881/atheism-terrorism-annihilation-quest-atheistic

https://www.nairaland.com/3232176/atheist-presidents-heads-state-quick

Except this, which I collated from the social media.
https://www.nairaland.com/3176513/atheist-murderers-past-present-murderous

budaatum:


Do you know how many people died in Latin America when the Spaniards landed there?

No Sir!

budaatum:

Or would you claim the Spaniards did not go to Latin America in the name of God, or were not religious?

Proof Sir!

budaatum:

How about the many people carried away as slaves from the coast of Africa by Christians?

About 10.5 million slaves according to Wikipedia, which dwarf in comparison to the 73 million lives lost at the hands of atheist Joseph Stalin.

Please note: The statistics did not say 10.5 million slaves lost their lives.

Please shed more light on this in your thread and do well to let us know how and those who began the movement for the abolishment of slave trade since slavery is recorded to have been practiced throughout human history.

budaatum:

How about the numerous purges and crusades in Europe, specifically in the name of God?

I know about the:
Christian crusades from 1095-1272 (Democide = 1000000)
Aztecs (Democide = 1000000)
Albigensian crusade from 1208-1249 (Democide= 200,000)
The Spanish inquisition 16th century to 18th century (Democide = 350,000)

If you know any other, please bring them forward in your new thread.

budaatum:

How about the human sacrifices in what became Latin America?

The witch hunts from the 15th century to the 17th century (Democide = 100,000)
as referenced in the statistics of Democide mentioned earlier.

If you know any others and have specific numbers, please state them in your new thread.

budaatum:

You did after all claim you didn't mean your god, so do they count towards deaths caused by religion too?

I'm giving you the chance to refute my threads with your facts. I want you to try to win this argument objectively and with your evidences. This is why I lumped all religion together. So in this case, its not just Christianity vs atheism, its religion vs atheism. This should be easy for you to refute easily with evidence .

budaatum:

Lets also add deaths in China during the periods when Taoism and Confucianism was their religion, and the deaths caused during the Arabic slave trades, they after all did have a religion; and the numerous deaths during the expansion of the Roman Empire and those between what became the Greek states. They too had religions with gods, so shall we say religion or god killed people then too?

Absolutely, you can add deaths during that period. More impotantly, you must add the political, economic or religious motivations for such deaths as I did HERE to make your thread more convincing.

budaatum:

How about the numerous deaths in even Nigeria during the wars between the Muslim south and the Southern pagans, or those amongst the Yorubas, who all had religion? Do those count? Or are the numbers not big enough for you?

I don't think those will count except we want to deviate from the argument of; "Comparing atheistic democides to religious Democides" to "comparing religious to the non religious". You have a chance of refuting the former (my argument). You have absolutely zero chance if refuting the latter. This is not to say that you can't give it a try.

budaatum:

I bet you would claim those terrorists killing people all over the world today are Muslims, and that they are killing people in the name of Allah, but you would likely point out that those who kill in the name of God are not true God followers.

Maybe not.

budaatum:

Go to any prison in any nation today and count how many religious people you would find in jail for murdering someone. Would you not find more people who believe in a god in prison than atheists?

Go to any country in the world today and count how many religious people you'll find. Except for countries that have suppressed the rights of their citizens, you are likely to find a religious majority in almost every country on earth.
More religious population = More religious good people, More religious criminals.

Again I ask, are you going to deviate from our argument of "comparing atheistic Democide to theistic Democide" or "comparing crimes from atheists to crimes from theists" because we both know that Albinos are less than 2% of Nigeria's population just like atheism is less than 4% of Nigeria's population. This scientifically translates normal/albino crime ratio to 9 : <1 just like the theist/atheist crime ratio will be 9 : <1.

Deviating from the point. When I was struggling with agnosticism, I remember sampling (in person) some motor park touts, prostitutes, cultists and others on the subject of God. I discovered that we might have more atheists in Nigeria than recorded. But this is subject for another day.

budaatum:
Even a simple record of killings of other human beings done in any country on any day of the year would have been committed by religious people if only for the fact that religious people out number those who are not religious by a significant amount.

Okay you seem to agree here that if atheists were 70% of the worlds population, then we would have more atheist criminals.

This means you still miss the point. My point was on atheistic democide compared to theistic democide. I don't know how else to simplify this to you.

budaatum:

Yet you are quick to believe what religious apologetics have presented to you are deaths caused by atheists because it suits the narrative you wish to believe!

The motivation for democide is important. I gave evidences of quotes from atheist leaders and constititions of atheistic countries to back my point.

I'd like you to create a thread and give similar evidences.

budaatum:

Your claim that atheists nations have killed more people than religious ones is false and relies on spurious uneducated evidence.

No it isn't false. Atheistic nations have really consciously killed more people than religious ones and I gave evidence in those threads. This is what is meant by democide. I gave evidence, you haven't given any counter evidence. You should create that thread.

budaatum:

The truth is that people have instigated killings for their own selfish ends and blamed their gods or no-gods for those killings.

True. But my point remains and history supports it that; Majority of atheist leaders who have found there way to the top, were extremely wild in their quest for a godless utopia often resulting to a frightening democide. I gave evidence for this in my threads.

budaatum:

A classical example of this exists in the Bible itself. Despite it being written that God told people to kill others, the truth is that no god told anyone anything of the sort and people have simply attempted to justify their own actions by claiming God told them to kill people.

The claims of the Israelites conquering nations in the Bible is a totally different argument that I've once addressed here. I will address it again when I choose to.

budaatum:

When Bush and Blair said God told them to invade Iraq, we treated them with the derision that they deserved and should treat such historical claims with the same derision that they deserve.

Bush and Blair would have been acting on obsolete laws and once again I'd address these narratives when I choose to.

budaatum:

Go read some history winner, and stop believing things you have no evidence for.

Educate me if you will. Educate others. Prove that my evidences hold no water. Create that thread.

budaatum:
Educate yourself by going though this List of wars by death toll.
Work out how many of the wars had atheists on either side. Then tell me which has religion as a reason for the wars, and the deaths.

I've gone through it before and I went through it again today.

You'll do well to classify which were religious wars and atheist wars because Wikipedia didn't.

budaatum:
This is how intelligent people reason, but discount for the fact that we count better in modern times.

Nice one by Brian Dunning who is "intelligent" only because he's atheist.

But as much as I'm tempted to, I won't reply Brian Dunning.

You type too many long articles and its tiring refuting obvious mistakes and sentiments.

Create that thread, and reference Brian Dunning and other authors. I'll take the pain to attend to it.

winner01:
deviate from the argument of; "Comparing atheistic democides to religious Democides" to "comparing religious to the non religious".

I'll make this one short. You might get my point. When you began this thread, I accused you of starting another "your god is better than my no-god" thread. You protested at the time, but are now asking me to compare what you call "atheistic democides" with "religious democides", a "your god is better than my no-god" argument, in the thread in which I accused you of doing exactly that!

In that initial post of mine, I went on to tell you the difficulty of either side accepting the other's evidence, and you predictably called that post "crap". Now you ask me for "crap" to refute your "crap"!

My response is that those who kill do not do so because of some god or no gods but because of their desire to fulfil their own selfish ends. Hitler is a classic example. He was dogmatic and set up of a personality cult with himself as the messianic figure who would save the starving Germans. He used every trick in the book, including condemning what he derisory called the "atheist communists", and whom he eradicated from Germany in his desire to acquire power. But to you, he is an atheist! And his atheism made him the idiot he is!

Sam Harris, whom I am certain you would not accept as being worthy of having his opinion considered, wrote that:

"The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship."

Note that he qualified "religious hero" with the word "cult", an admission that not all "religious hero worship" is cultish!

No winner, I refuse to compare diqs with you to find out which is bigger. I am an atheist. And if that makes you think I am going to kill more people than you would kill because you are a theist, then so be it. Continue to think so. I, buda, will live. But in case you care to know, my position is that when unevolved apes behave as asses, it has nothing to do with gods or the lack of gods since gods don't exist anyway. People are responsible for their own actions, even if they claim divine authority or if it is claimed for them or not.

I hope this is not too long for you.

winner01:
I've gone through it before and I went through it again today.

You'll do well to classify which were religious wars and atheist wars because Wikipedia didn't.

You wouldn't get it! You probably never would!

No war is purely fought for religious reasons! And when people claim religious intention for fighting wars, it is simply a cloak they use to hide their own motives of greed!

winner01:
Johnydon would answer that better. He asked the question.

How will you expect johnnydon22 to answer a question he asked you?

If you don't have an answer to the question let us know and stop wasting people's time

hopefulLandlord:


What if God actually exists but only atheists would be allowed into heaven? I find it bizarre how theists never thought about that possibility. like we die and God goes "HopefulLandlord, I exist but the test is to weed out those that would believe something on no evidence, you passed. you may pass"

Can you create a thread on this or should I go ahead to do so

winner01:

"Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." - The Gospel according to John

I thought u said u were not referring to the Christian god y are u quoting the bible ?

darkchild64:

Can you create a thread on this or should I go ahead to do so

You go ahead

budaatum:

I'll make this one short. You might get my point. When you began this thread, I accused you of starting another "your god is better than my no-god" thread. You protested at the time, but are now asking me to compare what you call "atheistic democides" with "religious democides", a "your god is better than my no-god" argument, in the thread in which I accused you of doing exactly that!

In that initial post of mine, I went on to tell you the difficulty of either side accepting the other's evidence, and you predictably called that post "crap". Now you ask me for "crap" to refute your "crap"!

My response is that those who kill do not do so because of some god or no gods but because of their desire to fulfil their own selfish ends. Hitler is a classic example. He was dogmatic and set up of a personality cult with himself as the messianic figure who would save the starving Germans. He used every trick in the book, including condemning what he derisory called the "atheist communists", and whom he eradicated from Germany in his desire to acquire power. But to you, he is an atheist! And his atheism made him the idiot he is!

Sam Harris, whom I am certain you would not accept as being worthy of having his opinion considered, wrote that:

"The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship."

Note that he qualified "religious hero" with the word "cult", an admission that not all "religious hero worship" is cultish!

No winner, I refuse to compare diqs with you to find out which is bigger. I am an atheist. And if that makes you think I am going to kill more people than you would kill because you are a theist, then so be it. Continue to think so. I, buda, will live. But in case you care to know, my position is that when unevolved apes behave as asses, it has nothing to do with gods or the lack of gods since gods don't exist anyway. People are responsible for their own actions, even if they claim divine authority or if it is claimed for them or not.

I hope this is not too long for you.

- My response is that those who kill do not do so because of some god or no gods but because of their desire to fulfil their own selfish ends

- Keep this energy when you see atheists say that religion is the biggest cause of violence throughout human history.

- I'm glad you now get the point.

hahn:


How will you expect johnnydon22 to answer a question he asked you?

If you don't have an answer to the question let us know and stop wasting people's time

How do you expect me to answer a faulty question. I proved the fault in this thread. If you still don't get it, then I can't help you.

winner01:


- My response is that those who kill do not do so because of some god or no gods but because of their desire to fulfil their own selfish ends

- Keep this energy when you see atheists say that religion is the biggest cause of violence throughout human history.

- I'm glad you now get the point.

I, now get the point? You funny winner. Did you not somewhere claim to have studied sociology? I expected you to at least have gotten this point from the start! It is the reason I engage with you at the level I do. Or am I wrong about your studies?

Anyone who says "religion is the biggest cause of violence throughout human history" is ignorant, if they truly don't know otherwise, or stupid, if not ignorant since they know better! And the fact that some people are stupid or ignorant is no reason for one to resort to equal stupidity and ignorance in refuting their false claims. It is hardly expected from a sociologist of graduate level, and much less so if the person has gone further in the study. It's even more stupid for an atheist, who in effect says there are no gods, to go on and claim gods, that don't exist, killed anyone!

The biggest cause of violence amongst humans is greed and dominance. And to whip up the support of people, sentiment is often used. Race, is a common tool, and has historically been the most used. Ethnicity is another (consider Nigerian politics, our civilian war and Rwandas, and 1930 Germany), as well as Ideology, which include religious and economic ideology (first and second world war, the subsequent Cold War, the crusades, current so called Islamic terrorism and Mao's cultural revolution.)

Those who want dominance may claim some god said they should go to war, or that some god or ideology (including religion and atheism) is what the fight is against, but they just use that to deceive the poor fools who's blood would be shed in the achievement of the selfish ends, or even what they think is an altruistic motive, of their leaders.

If you ever need help challenging this stupidity by atheists (or anyone), quote me and call on me to support you please.