Image123:

[. . .] parents are simply people who God has given us to take care of us.
[. . .]

So why did God say this then:
Matthew 15:4-5. For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
[quote][/quote]

I didn't imply that anyone should dishonour his father or mother or curse them. No one should dishonour/curse his pastor either. I said parents are simply . It's just a simple definition I'm giving. e.g apostle Paul was a 'father' to some people even though he wasn't 'married'.

REAL TRUTH:

  With all due respect,,am deeply sorry to say that I have to insult you for trying to insult peoples intelligent here

Fire!

,,I would you re a very silly

ouch!

This how you people go about breaking peoples home in the name of a God you don't,,Did you not read up where Ephe 6 Verese 2 to 3 says what should be to parents?

your problem is ignorance of scriptures. How long will you make your son a mummy's boy?. Timothy was raised in the word of Go. By his mum , but did she continue to dictate the course of his life. He submitted himself to his pastor, Paul , who guided him in Gods plan.

Why is it at Deeper Life Bible church they always insist on parental consent as against the penterascals doctrine that have brought confussion in christianity in nigeria,,,

it's not only deeper life. Every church recognize the honor for parents, and insist on their consent for marriage to be conducted. Nobody is against parental role . The thread is about who has the right pray over them . Man of God or parents.

I repeat again you re and must be very silly

and silly to make the above bolded statement,,,Can you smell the coffee that more and more people are becoming very aware and informed of the manipulation,deception and fraud your so called men of God re becoming these days? So I will allow the authority of the man of God "RUN FROM YOUR LIFE MINISTRY" to have authority over my son,,or I will allow your man of God that I will have to pay #200 for BAMITISM and where I will consider sunday service as ORDINARY service,,,
As Christian and as a person I have virtually no respect for any NIGERIAN PASTOR,,,except fro KUMUYI AND BAKARE,,,,

so who is collecting 200 for bamitism here? What kind of junk posting is this?

aletheia:

So why did God say this then:
Matthew 15:4-5. For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

Okija juju

Okija_juju:

Lets look at blessings in the bible with regards to parents
Talks about a father blessin his son. (Isaac was not a prophet)
Yet another instance of parental blessing

we should not arrogate to parents the role or responsible that is not theirs.  You respect , honour them by gifts(honorarium). Children are encouraged to obey the parents [b]in the lord.

Parents can only play pastoral role in the lives of the children if they have such calling.  That makes them the spiritual head over them . If you are born again , what dealings do you have with unsaved parents? They don't have any spiritual part to play in your life. You only have the responsibility of honouring them. This honour for parents has nothing to do with their status. That means , even if your mother were a witch , you must still honour her. But that doesnt give such parent spiritual headship over you

Parental authority is not forever , when you get to the age of accountability, you are responsible for you life. They are to raise the children to embrAce God. God becomes their father. The parents have succeeded as parents.

Matthew 23:9
9 And call no[ man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Luke 14:26
26 If any[ man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Joagbaje:

Parental authority is not forever , when you get to the age of accountability, you are responsible for you life. They are to raise the children to embrAce God. God becomes their father. The parents have succeeded as parents.
Matthew 23:9
9 And call no[ man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Luke 14:26
26 If any[ man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Mr Agbaje or Pastor Agbaje,,,either of two things would play here,,,its either the Bible is wrong/invalid or U re a false prophet wrongly interpreting the Bible,,,Look at the Bible referrences below and corrolate with ur above interpretation of the scripture you quoted above:

Ephesians 6: 2-3. Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
The scripture here did not define when a man ceases to be a son to his father or mother,,even African traditions teaches us to honour our parents,,how come a so called religion would teach us how its got to get to a point we have to disobey our parents,,,

Matthew 15:4-5. For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
If any man choses to HATE parents,,,such a automatically has cursed the parents,,,,this is one of the many reasons I have a big problem with Penterascals Religion in Nigeria,,,,God would definitely surprise all you home breakers and abusers of God's word,,,
What you guys do is to pick a theology illustration to back up your nefarious cum deluded intentions,,,,,

Oga joagbaje
'Parental authority is not forever', i don't know about that one o!

Hi @Joagbaje,

I actually started by asking you various questions - all detailed below - and I would appreciate answers. But in truth, I see your position as being based on the commandments and traditions of men, which have no basis in scripture or are at best woefully erroneouss misapplications of same.

You have made numerous assertions, based very much on what obtains in many "churches" today, but none of which you have supported scripturally.

As you can see from some posts, its a very emotive subject. Relationship are being strained and influenced, by this "nowhere to be found in scripture" (I speak of both the "role of pastor" as generally practiced and "pastoral authority" as typically proclaimed). How many wives have I heard answer their husbands (or worse still potential husbands) with "pastor says" regards their personal matters. Or children respond to their parents about other "superceding" parents in the Lord?

This mandate for "Pastors" to bless, curse, command is nowhere to be found in scripture. "The Head of every man" is Christ. That is sprititual headship. There is no longer an intermediary priesthood for believers. And there is no divine protocol that demands God always/only blesses via Pastors. Where do people get these notions?

Eldership authority is limited to church and church affairs, it is not a "whole of life" issue. Church and church affairs are a part of the Christian life - and not even the primary part of that. Marriage is a divine institution, but a civil matter. Church involvement is optional at best. Of course counsel and wisdom from Xtian elders is great, but not obligatory or mandated by scripture.


My questions;

Joagbaje:

Parental authority is not forever , when you get to the age of accountability, you are responsible for you life.

I agree with you here. Parental authority is not forever, but parental honour is. And the authority is still in place regards "family" as opposed to "personal" issues.

And that accountability you mentioned,  is to whom?

Joagbaje:

Okija jujuwe should not arrogate to parents the role or responsible that is not theirs.  You respect , honour them by gifts(honorarium). Children are encouraged to obey the parents in the lord.

Children are to honour, respect, submit to, obey and account to their parents. By the time a child is able to give "gifts" surely thats the point they are most likely to have reached the age of "accountability"?

^{Would it be wrong to suggest Honour is equated to cash in essence as it bolsters the notion that "double honour" for elders is also erroneously read to mean money by many?}

Joagbaje:

Parents can only play pastoral role in the lives of the children if they have such calling.  That makes them the spiritual head over them . If you are born again , what dealings do you have with unsaved parents? They don't have any spiritual part to play in your life. You only have the responsibility of honouring them. This honour for parents has nothing to do with their status. That means , even if your mother were a witch , you must still honour her. But that doesnt give such parent spiritual headship over you

What is spiritual headship sir? Who has spiritual headship?? Over whom? When??

Joagbaje:

[your problem is ignorance of scriptures. How long will you make your son a mummy's boy?. Timothy was raised in the word of Go. By his mum , but did she continue to dictate the course of his life. He submitted himself to his pastor, Paul , who guided him in Gods plan.

Timothy submitted himself to Paul in "church affairs" and Pauls guidance/authority started and ended in that sphere. There is no record showing he submitted his life affairs to Paul. So again, did Paul have "Spiritual Headship" or "Spiritual Authority" over Timothy? And who in turn acted in  a like capacity over Paul?

Joagbaje:

parental authority is not spiritual authority. But pastoral authority is spiritual. Marriage is a spiritual institution and not a social one. That is why we have the traditional one where the parents are honoured but, in church? It is the pastor that they are submitted to that has the power and anointing to bless them.

Please explain the difference between spiritual and non-spiritula authority sir, and particularly the dynamics of "Spiritual Authority"

Joagbaje:

Even the traditional wedding, parents that are unspiritual have nothing to impart to a saint.Theres exception for Christian parents who are spiritual. These are the first spiritual authority over the children. I asked in my first post. What blessing can a juju man pronounce on you?. All parents are not the same . Parents that are not spiritual have nothing to offer. The pastor is Gods representative to bless.

So all non-Christian marriages (before and after the advent of Christianity) are somehow missing any parental blessing?

More importantly the bolded part of your statement, could you show any sort of scritural attestation to support that assertion.

Joagbaje:

We can't deny the authority the parents have over the children, but at the same time , we must recognize , their authority has limits.
1. When they reach the age of accountability.
2. When the parents take a stand against the word of God.

Is there ever an age of accountability for a Christian, or must he/she always be under Pastors headship or authority?

Joagbaje:

When a man is born again, he's Gods property, there's God purpose to fulfil. The person that has spiritual authority to bless them is the pastor. The parents have parental authority for a period in their lives, but the pastors spiritual authority to bless supersedes the parental . If parents are not born again, they have no blessing to offer a Christian . Because there's a rule in blessing. You can't bless your senior! The lesser person is blessed by the greater person.

Heb 7:7
The less is blessed of the better.

If ones "Pastor" has a broken communion with God, how does that impact things? If the communion of a GO with say 5'000 churches, 10'000 sub-pastors and 2'000'000 members has broken communio, how are those under his "Spiritual Authority/headship" impacted?

nuclearboy:

[4] This pastoral "spiritual" authority - what happens to it where the pastor falls by the wayside? Is it transferred or kept "in holding" till another submission to another pastor. Like in the case of such as Jimmy Swarggart, perharps?

Joagbaje:

I don't know exactly what you mean by spiritual authority .
We have the believers authority, we have the authority of the word and the holyghost. And we have pastoral authority .
All has to do with spiritual authority.

Maybe you should simply state what you mean by "Spiritual Authority", and we'll take it from there.

Thanks
TV

Image123:

Oga joagbaje
'Parental authority is not forever', i don't know about that one o!

REAL TRUTH:

Mr Agbaje or Pastor Agbaje,,,either of two things would play here,,,its either the Bible is wrong/invalid or  U re a false prophet wrongly interpreting the Bible,,,Look at the Bible referrences below and corrolate with your above interpretation of the scripture you quoted above:

Ephesians  6: 2-3. Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
  The scripture here did not define when a man ceases to be a son to his father or mother,,even African traditions teaches us to honour our parents,,how come a so called religion would teach us how its got to get to a point we have to disobey our parents,,,

Matthew 15:4-5. For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
If any man choses to HATE parents,,,such a automatically has cursed the parents,,,,this is one of the many reasons I have a big problem with Penterascals Religion in Nigeria,,,,God would definitely surprise all you home breakers and abusers of God's word,,,
What you guys do is to pick a theology illustration to back up your nefarious come deluded intentions,,,,,

I did not say parents will sieze go be parents, if you look at my earlier post, my stand was clear. Fatherhood is forever.this is what I said : 

Joagbaje:

You respect , honour them by gifts(honorarium). Children are encouraged to obey the parents in the lord.
even if your mother were a witch , you must still honour her. But that doesnt give such parent spiritual headship over you

Fatherhood is forever but that doesn't mean that their authority over you is forever. Take a good example at the life of Jesus.

Matthew 12:47-50
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

I know we still have some men who at the age of fifty still tell their wife " mumsie says we should have a boy for her,"
Your parents are accountable to God for themselves, you are accountable to God for yourself. Some have so much family ties that won't allow them to serve God. Honor for God and his purpose supersedes family ties.

[b]Matthew 10:3[/b]7
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

^
I want to be very clear, i do hope that i'm the one without understanding of what you're saying here. Are you saying that there's a time when we're younger that we should obey our parents, but as we grow older they don't have any more authority for us to obey them as before or what? Accountability and authority aren't the same words, are they? I believe God should always supercede parents irrespective of our age, but it doesn't seem like that's what you're saying, is it?

ideally, it should be your parents.

but if you come from a dysfunctional family where blessings are rare while curses are abundant, then you bless yourself.


example: the story of jabez, sort of.
[s]
God gave everyone a mouth to plead their own case.[/s]

TV01:

This mandate for "Pastors" to bless, curse, command is nowhere to be found in scripture. "The Head of every man" is Christ. That is sprititual headship. There is no longer an intermediary priesthood for believers. And there is no divine protocol that demands God always/only blesses via Pastors. Where do people get these notions?

^Right! And well put.

Let one thing be made clear in this forum that it will a gross miss-placement and an abysmal gratification of ignorance for anyone to downplay on the credibility of the office of the "parent" to bless but be that as it may many of those who have stood out in the support for parents have not in anyway made any pleasant or gratifying remark to at least justify the office of the pastor, l hope this is not an attempt to discredit it.

because there are some people in this forum who have never said anything good about the office of the pastor and you wonder if they have pastors over them or the same Bible they claim to expain in the defence of their view points doesn't say anything about the place of the pastor in the life of the christian in the church.

newmi:

but be that as it may many of those who have stood out in the support for parents have not in anyway made any pleasant or gratifying remark to at least justify the office of the pastor, l hope this is not an attempt to discredit it.

The "office" of "Pastor" needs to be properly understood. What for the most part obtains in many churches in Nigeria/Black/Pentecostal churches is nowhere to be found in scripture. Not just discredit, but also dispel and disabuse (we call it "deliverance" in the trade  ). If you can find it - and hence "credit" it - in scripture please do so, and kindly share with us here.

newmi:

because there are some people in this forum who have never said anything good about the office of the pastor and you wonder if they have pastors over them or the same Bible they claim to expain in the defence of their view points doesn't say anything about the place of the pastor in the life of the christian in the church.

In a sense, but I don't think its in the way you are alluding too. But like I said - If you can find it - and hence "credit" it - in scripture please do so, and kindly share with us here.

Thanks
TV

Image123:

^
I want to be very clear, i do hope that i'm the one without understanding of what you're saying here. Are you saying that there's a time when we're younger that we should obey our parents, but as we grow older they don't have any more authority for us to obey them as before or what? Accountability and authority aren't the same words, are they? I believe God should always supercede parents irrespective of our age, but it doesn't seem like that's what you're saying, is it?

I agree with you, The will of God supersedes parents irrespective of our age. But a child may not know the will of God for the moment. Until he grows to an extent. Jesus was one of the few exceptional children that knew Gods will early at the age of 12 . But the issue is , many people called of God had to fight a fight of faith with their parents before they let go.
Many a times parents stand in the way of Gods will because they don't know when to stop interference.

Hi @Joagbaje,

I actually started by asking you various questions - all detailed below - and I would appreciate answers. But in truth, I see your position as being based on the commandments and traditions of men, which have no basis in scripture or are at best woefully erroneouss misapplications of same.

You have made numerous assertions, based very much on what obtains in many "churches" today, but none of which you have supported scripturally.

The fact that I didn't give scriptures for time sake didn't mean they are not scripturally based. All you need do us ask for the scriptural references.

As you can see from some posts, its a very emotive subject. Relationship are being strained and influenced, by this "nowhere to be found in scripture" (I speak of both the "role of pastor" as generally practiced and "pastoral authority" as typically proclaimed). How many wives have I heard answer their husbands (or worse still potential husbands) with "pastor says" regards their personal matters. Or children respond to their parents about other "superceding" parents in the Lord?

Nothing is wrong with that, so long as the "pastor says" is spiritual and scriptural.

This mandate for "Pastors" to bless, curse, command is nowhere to be found in scripture.

You may not use the word "mandate". But the anointing works both ways. The pastor has authority in his mouth. It can bless and destroy.

2 Corinthians 10:8
8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

1 Timothy 1:20
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

What do you say about Peter, when he sentenced annanias and sapphira to death.

There is authority in the church brother. That is why a minister must walk in love always, so that he can only bless .

"The Head of every man" is Christ. That is sprititual headship. There is no longer an intermediary priesthood for believers. And there is no divine protocol that demands God always/only blesses via Pastors. Where do people get these notions?

If you are correct , then there will be no need of submission .

Hebrews 13:17
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that[ is] unprofitable for you. 

Timothy submitted himself to Paul in "church affairs" and Pauls guidance/authority started and ended in that sphere. There is no record showing he submitted his life affairs to Paul. So again, did Paul have "Spiritual Headship" or "Spiritual Authority" over Timothy? And who in turn acted in  a like capacity over Paul?

There's no church affair, christ is your life. Why would he tell Timothy to take a little wine, for his health challenge, why nit send him back to mama. After all Timothy was a youth.Moses involvement with the church in the wilderness, was it only in worship?  He was involved with civil, criminal,spiritual matters. The church is a world on it's own. Jesus says if your brother offend you, take it to the church. The church is not a social gathering . It is the pillar of truth.

 

Eldership authority is limited to church and church affairs, it is not a "whole of life" issue. Church and church affairs are a part of the Christian life - and not even the primary part of that. Marriage is a divine institution, but a civil matter. Church involvement is optional at best. Of course counsel and wisdom from Xtian elders is great, but not obligatory or mandated by scripture.

Marriage for the Christian is not a civil matter. The mistake some people make is to divide the Christian life into two: 1. my Christian life , 2.my personal life. you have only one life. Christ is your life. And this life of christ ought to reflect in your job, marriage , business, ministry etc.
That's why The bible forbids Christian going to civil courts to judge matter. We need to understand the strength of pastoral ministry.

1 Corinthians 6:1-7

1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. 7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather[ suffer yourselves to] be defrauded?

I agree with you here. Parental authority is not forever, but parental honour is. And [b]the authority [/b]is still in place regards "family" as opposed to "personal" issues.

I Dont know what you mean by "still in place "  if my father makes decision about his property, it's his property. He has authority over his property .It doesn't suggest authority over me.

And that accountability you mentioned,  is to whom?

accountability to life, to God, to oneself etc. Taking responsibility for ones actions.

Would it be wrong to suggest Honour is equated to cash in essence as it bolsters the notion that "double honour" for elders is also erroneously read to mean money by many?

Honoring parents ( with gifts) is a divine law for longevity.( Mk 7:10,11)

What is spiritual headship sir? Who has spiritual headship?? Over whom? When?

Headship is leadership. Who you follow spiritually .

Please explain the difference between spiritual and non-spiritula authority sir, and particularly the dynamics of "Spiritual Authority"

Let's take Pastor Chris, for example. He started preaching the gospel from the age of about 12. He once said that those days when he goes on a fast, ( for soul winning)he locks his room to pray. The Mum complains to the father, the father comes and command him to open the door, and questions him for not eating, if he says he's fasting, he would still question the fasting by asking him , " what sin have you committed that you're fasting"?. By this the dad was bringing parental authority into spiritual authority. Jesus had to rebuke Mary too. Because parents even in their care don't know when to stop. You must take a stand. And with  pastoral guidance.

So all non-Christian marriages (before and after the advent of Christianity) are somehow missing any parental blessing?

Parental blessing has it's place especially if they are saved. But it cannot take the place of pastoral blessing . The pastor is the man God has anointed over them.

More importantly the bolded part of your statement,"The pastor is Gods representative to bless". could you show any sort of scritural attestation to support that assertion.

It may require a lot of explanation, maybe we spare it for another thread.But the first thing is to define the word " pastor"
It is not a title. He is a shepherd, guides, nutures,feeds, guards,etc. . It is an office and a calling. God has put authority in his mouth for the sheep. To edifying them.
   
2 Corinthians 10:8
8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification,[/quite]

[color=#990000]2[b] Timothy 1:6[/b]
6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

Is there ever an age of accountability for a Christian, or must he/she always be under Pastors headship or authority?

You don't graduate from pastoral leadership, a man that doesn't have a pastor over him is spiritually a vagabond. Except of course if his pastor dies and he becomes a pastor too. But one thing is clear, he had been raised by someone. As Paul raised Timothy . I'm not aware they set an expiry date for paul's leadership over Timothy.

If ones "Pastor" has a broken communion with God, how does that impact things? If the communion of a GO with say 5'000 churches, 10'000 sub-pastors and 2'000'000 members has broken communio, how are those under his "Spiritual Authority/headship" impacted?

Romans 11:29
29 For the gifts and calling of God[ are] without repentance.

The anointing to bless the sheep, is regardless of the disposition of the pastor . As long as he walks by faith .But a pastor can't break communion with God. It depends on what you mean by that. How can a man break communion with God ? If he cuts from God , he's no longer a Christian , not to talk about ministering to others.

[4] This pastoral "spiritual" authority - what happens to it where the pastor falls by the wayside? Is it transferred or kept "in holding" till another submission to another pastor. Like in the case of such as Jimmy Swarggart,

If a man falls into a sin, he repents and gets out of it. That will not hinder the move of God in his life, except the enemy overwhelms him not to forgive himself or with guilt. God doesn't take the gift from a man. Except if the man walks away from God. And automatically walks away from the anointing.

[/quote][quote]

Joagbaje:

That's If you are are unsaved.

parental authority is not spiritual authority. But pastoral authority is spiritual. Marriage is a spiritual institution and not a social one. That is why we have the traditional one where the parents are honoured but, in church? It is the pastor that they are submitted to that has the power and anointing to bless them.

The first bolded in nonsense.
@second bold. Are you telling me that Marriages done in the court or magistrate are not blessed of God?

Joagbaje:




We can't deny the authority the parents have over the children, but at the same time , we must recognize , their authority has limits.
1. When they reach the age of accountability.

When a man is born again, he's Gods property, there's God purpose to fulfil. The person that has spiritual authority to bless them is the pastor. The parents have parental authority for a period in their lives, but the pastors spiritual authority to bless supersedes the parental . If parents are not born again, they have no blessing to offer a Christian . Because there's a rule in blessing. You can't bless your senior! The lesser person is blessed by the greater person.

Heb 7:7
The less is blessed of the better.

What do you mean by "senior, lesser, greater"? In what sense are you applying these words? You cannot generalize the context of Heb. 7:7.

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons


Mathew 20: 12 says: These last have wrought but one hour, a[b]nd thou hast made them equal unto us[/b], which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

There verses teach us that God considers us all one. There scenerio in Heb 7:7 was not a man-man relationship but a God-man relationship.


Also can u support the first bolded with scriptures? Because As far as I know, Abraham's, Isaac's, Jacob's etc functions to their children did not EXPIRE at son age of accountability.

@agbaje

Parental authority is not forever , when you get to the age of accountability, you are responsible for you life. They are to raise the children to embrAce God. God becomes their father. The parents have succeeded as parents.

Matthew 23:9
9 And call no[ man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Luke 14:26
26 If any[ man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

LOL, Come on, Dont tell me you are taking all this verses Literarily to support that thing you wrote above

Joagbaje:


Many a times parents stand in the way of Gods will because they don't know when to stop interference.

And you think Pastors Dont?

you guys after put yourselves in the shoes of Pastor Joe, he has to defend the self imposed "authority" of his profession and his source of filthy lucre.

Joagbaje:



2 Corinthians 10:8
8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

1 Timothy 1:20
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

What do you say about Peter, when he sentenced annanias and sapphira to death.

There is authority in the church brother. That is why a minister must walk in love always, so that he can only bless .

Hehe. One interesting thing I see and read these days is a case where Everybody puts their self in the same position as the apostles. Everybody is like Paul and Peter. Everybody is saved!

@Toluxa1:

Bros, you're operating under a wonderful "anointing" O. If nuclearboy had tried to post the above, the armed forces, civil defence, OPC and Niger-Delta militants would be braying for my blood by now. Even "winches & winzads" would be angry now!

I remain grateful for people who speak truth and refute error.

Toluxa

toluxa1:

 parental authority is not spiritual authority. But pastoral authority is spiritual

The first bolded in nonsense.

We are dealing with adults,and not children under papa's care.By default, parents are supposed to be spiritual heads over the family in Israel, their case is different, because it was a nation under God. The headship in Israel were spiritual. Even the kingship. They were naturally spiritual head over the children. We are not under that system now. There is no national faith and national religion, this is personal relationship with God. If you have parents that are christians, they have something to impart if they bless you, but that doesn't give them authority over you as an adult. And they can't take the place of your pastor who is your spiritual head.

Are you telling me that Marriages done in the court or magistrate are not blessed of God?

They are recognised by  the government,by God , by demons , by angels, by the church. But the court has no power to bless marriage. If a Christian does that , he still needs to do marriage blessing or church blessing, to confer Gods blessing upon it.

Hi @Joagbaje, I trust all is well and thanks for your response. Given the nature of my connection right now, I will have to respond a bit at a time. Please bear with me.

I have a better understanding of your position. I daresay of lot of our points of difference are based on fundamental differences, so I'll do my best to approach the discussion at those ab initio points of difference.

Nothing is wrong with that, so long as the "pastor says" is spiritual and scriptural.

Probably firstly - and a topic touched on frequentlyt in NL Religion board discourse - is the whole position, role of "Pastor". The Church of Christ in gathering is "Shepherded" by a plurality of co-equal elders. The term shepherd, is synonymous with bishop, presbyter, elder and indeed pastor. Equal in authority, although they may differ in gifting, role etc. None has "the pre-eminence" by way of status. In a nutshell, there is no biblically I see no prescribed office of "The Pastor", as a sole/overall senior authority figure in a gathering of believers.

And I don't see how using the cloak of a supposed hgher authority - PAstor - to undermine spousal or parental authority - which is scripturally outlined, is not wrong.

You may not use the word "mandate". But the anointing works both ways. The pastor has authority in his mouth. It can bless and destroy.

The anointing is on all who are His. Nothing can be pronounced on a steadfast believer unless it is of The Lord. Even Balaam knew that. The authority is limited to church gatherings/affairs.

2 Corinthians 10:8
For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

- does not suggest that God gifted and authorised Paul to wilfully bless or curse. The charge and attendant authority/gifting/function are for edification and not destruction, which Paul plainly states

1 Timothy 1:20
Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

- What are you suggesting here? If the Lord sent Paul to edify per the above, would he unilaterally decide to destroy. This was to teach/scourge them, which every child of God is subject too. The destroyer is Gods tool. Otherwise deliver can only mean he left them to their choice, which was evil anyway

What do you say about Peter, when he sentenced annanias and sapphira to death.

That was a work of The Holy Spirit. The pronouncement may have come through Peter, but it was not his call.

There is authority in the church brother. That is why a minister must walk in love always, so that he can only bless.

In as much as love is a universal quality/attribute/action of the brethren, it is not specifically outlined oin the pastoral epistles as a requirement for elders. You are merely ad-libbing here.

TV wrote;

"The Head of every man" is Christ. That is sprititual headship. There is no longer an intermediary priesthood for believers. And there is no divine protocol that demands God always/only blesses via Pastors. Where do people get these notions?

Joagbaje replied;

If you are correct , then there will be no need of submission .

How did you deduce that? Submission in relationships, and sphere's is clearly outlined in the scripture.

Joagbaje:

Toluxa
We are dealing with adults,and not children under papa's care.By default, parents are supposed to be spiritual heads over the family in Israel, their case is different, because it was a nation under God. The headship in Israel were spiritual. Even the kingship. They were naturally spiritual head over the children. We are not under that system now. There is no national faith and national religion, this is personal relationship with God. If you have parents that are christians, they have something to impart if they bless you, but that doesn't give them authority over you as an adult. And they can't take the place of your pastor who is your spiritual head.
They are recognised by  the government,by God , by demons , by angels, by the church. But the court has no power to bless marriage. If a Christian does that , he still needs to do marriage blessing or church blessing, to confer Gods blessing upon it.

Just as many of the pastors in Nigeria have unknowingly developed a psychological problem,,,I can see clearly that you have also developed one( Pls bear with me that I ve to use dis language for U),,,In essence,,if truly all the marriages that were/are contracted in the church has got God's blessings,,,tell me why in some pastors are actually involved in divorce cases in Nigeria,,,also why is it non- Christians live a much more honorable and decent lifestyles than professed born-again tongue speaking christians in Nigeria,
Much more,,,I am using pastor Ighodalo's wedding as an illustration,,,Can we say his marriage has been blessed by God since it was conducted in a church? Knowing that those who blessed him in the church are now making a U-Turn thereby withdrawing the "the church blessings(curses)"
I have a feeling U are a pastor,,,and am not surprise at ur twisting of God's word. I am sure since you are internet savvy,,U must have heard of Rend. Jim Jones,,,At what point would you recommend that people should disregard their pastor authority?
As for me,,,No pastor,Bishop or whatever can have any authority over me that contradicts my parents,,I am a spirit being,,and am spiritual connected to my parents,,pastors these became pastors because of greed and an uncontrolled zeal,,,because U re a pastor,,,U must have authority over my families affairs? what if you are wrong like Revd Jim Jones? would you ever think I will listen to you if at all you re my pastor,,,You re living in a dream world,,,Many people are becoming very aware of the antics of these chalatans,,,who claimed to be annointed,,,

Hebrews 13:17
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that[ is] unprofitable for you.  

First note the "them" - as in plurality - and not "he".  Second, I could glibly quote scriptures which speak of "not lording it over the brethren", "all being brothers in the Lord", "humble, sacrificial shepherding" and many more, but let me ask that you dwell on the nature of Christian relationship and ask yourself if some a brethren are called to "rule" over others, and not just in church affairs, but over every aspect of their lives?

TV wrote;

Timothy submitted himself to Paul in "church affairs" and Pauls guidance/authority started and ended in that sphere. There is no record showing he submitted his life affairs to Paul. So again, did Paul have "Spiritual Headship" or "Spiritual Authority" over Timothy? And who in turn acted in  a like capacity over Paul?

Kindly respond to the question above

There's no church affair, christ is your life. Why would he tell Timothy to take a little wine, for his health challenge, why nit send him back to mama. After all Timothy was a youth.Moses involvement with the church in the wilderness, was it only in worship?  He was involved with civil, criminal,spiritual matters. The church is a world on it's own. Jesus says if your brother offend you, take it to the church. The church is not a social gathering . It is the pillar of truth.

Another fundamental difference here sir. Christ =/= Church. Church is a part of a Christians life, not the totality of it. And I go as far as to add not the primary or foremost part of the Christian life.

You confuse yourself? Christians can judge personal matters between each other, but can't give dietary advice?

If two Christians in community have a matter of contention, they should be satisfied for the ruling of an elder in the matter, or even to suffer loss. That does not mean the has "Spiritual Authority" over them, even if it means the parties in question are being submissive - per Hebrews quoted earlier.

Marriage for the Christian is not a civil matter. The mistake some people make is to divide the Christian life into two: 1. my Christian life , 2.my personal life. you have only one life. Christ is your life. And this life of christ ought to reflect in your job, marriage , business, ministry etc.
That's why The bible forbids Christian going to civil courts to judge matter. We need to understand the strength of pastoral ministry.

Marriage is a civil and a personal matter between believers or non-believers.

The mistake you are making is to equate church gatherings with the whole of life. A Christians faith is too colour everything he does in every sphere he operates in and Christ should always be in view, but youe so labelled "strength of pastoral ministry" does not stand scrutiny.

Does pastor follow you to work? And if he does, can he override your oga? ^{Not unless you are a full-time usher and your oga is a deacon.}
Does Pastor show up in tutorials and presume to teach class?

Even if you claim Pastoral ministry extends past church when its about welfare, please note that any brethren can attend to your wellbeing. And also note that ministry, is giving, hospitality and other such gifts/functions, which are not the preserve of elders/pastors

Funny, I think we agree pretty much on Parental Authority. In a nutshell my point is;

1. You are under parental authority until you leave home/marry/reach accountability - not always synonymous, or totally clear cut.
2. Your parents authority over you and accountability for your actions diminishes as does their responsibility towards you.
3. They are of course on hand to counsel, support etc, but they have no "rule" over your immediate family/life decisions or reponsibility, although they would be grieved if you erred
4. In extended family decisions, patriarchy still has the rule.

I also see clearly outlined in the bible how eldership, works along similar lines.

May I also add that I see "Church" as community. That does not really obtain in these times. People come from far and wide - drawn to a temple or person - to "worship" together and then disperse, so there is no real continuity. In that context I would expect eldership influence to be more far-reaching, more proximate, but is does not afford them "rule" over your existence.

But not to overly digress.