Janosky:

In many trinitarian Bible translations ,John 20:28 ends with exclamation (!).

You know it's an exclamation yet you're trying so hard to prove Thomas only called Jesus his God and not our God... isn't that stupidity

Besides, exclamation doesn't only mean the lies you people are claiming it to be always.

An exclamation is a sound, word, or sentence that is spoken suddenly, loudly, or emphatically and that expresses excitement, admiration, shock, or anger.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/exclamation

Even though exclamation was used by some versions doesn't erase the fact what Thomas said.

The scripture recorded "and Thomas said to him" which means Thomas directed his statement to Jesus and knew excertlly what he said.

Lastly, before you quote me, the person I replied said "Do you know what it means for someone to call another 'My God'? It means the person (called my God) received worship and prayers"

But after you erroneously jump into what doesn't concern you, you agreed Thomas called Jesus my God and that's only for Thomas and not us since he didn't say our God. You even went further to use "my president" as an example.

You can keep deny scripture and twist it but the door of salvation is still wide opened.

Shalom!

Agrogbeide:
herlecks don't tell me you didn't notice the above. Please explain.

Cc. Janosky, maximus99

Spiritual things are explained even from physical things. You yourself are a TRIPATITE being. You have Body, Soul and Spirit. These three exist and all together form the man.

And so, we were created in God's own image. There are many arithmetics that doesn't add up like you may think. You can't use science to explain divine principles. If you don't believe the Trinity, you unbelief does not hinder the work and workings of God.

herlecks:
Oh.. being not as a person.. Is that so?

Bring your words out of scripture, not those jargons your pastor taught you. If your argument is not based on scripture you speak falsehood.

As a person not in essence. Lies. But Jesus says the Father (Person) is His God (Essence). Ah! Jesus says His Father is supreme in every way, whether in person or in essence. He called the LORD GOD His Father to prove superiority of Person and also calls Him His God to prove superiority of Essence! How come you people claim they are equal in any way? You people would even say to the Lord Jesus to shut up, that He doesn't know himself, that you know Him better. The Lord Jesus knew hypocrites would come to twist God's word to their own destruction, so He often emphasizes "my God my God my Father my Father." What can be easier to understand than this? Who taught you people these nonsense you spew on net? Where is this in the scripture? Who is the Source of all things? Jesus says, "I have life because of my Father," meaning Jesus cannot exist without the Father Who is the Source of life, hypocrites say no, you have life because you are equal to the Father in essence. What is Person? What is essence? God is Spirit. That is the essence. Man has spirit, that makes him equal with God, right? of the same essence? Angels and demons are spirits too. Absolutely deluded folk and his pastor.

Folly. So Jesus is soul and Father Spirit? This is in fact demonic. Who taught you all these nonscriptural jargons? Were you never taught at Sundays school that God is Spirit? You want to add your little human soul to complete Him?

If Jesus has not another God, why does He always say "my God and my Father?" I thought essence was the same? The Father shouldn't be His God if they were equal in essence, right? Lest you don't know what essence is.

Was Jesus making jokes when He said He has a God and a Father? Oh! He was referring to? His other essence half in heaven?

Your standpoint is most erroneous here. Folks like you want to eradicate the Person of the Son, the Word of God who became flesh, and make Him in the most stupid way One with His Father, calling Him the Father. You are most confused or deceived in here, very confused. In truth, if anyone believes not the Son of God, he is none of his! If Jesus is equal to the Father, then you deny the Son of God, for He is Son, not Father. Whosoever denies the Son is condemned already because He believed not on the Son of God. So you all had better get it right in your minds, if you truly worship God or something you fabricate on your bed. Go study scripture afresh with all humility and simplicity of heart, maybe God will show you something besides the nonsense your pastor has fed you with.

These lying Pharisees rejected the words Jesus himself spoke to them in John 14:28, 20:17. 5:37. 6:46 &
Rev 3:5,12-14,21. Matt16:13-17.
Rather than listen to Jesus, they cherished the junk their pastors dish out to them.

Emusan:


You know it's an exclamation yet you're trying so hard to prove Thomas only called Jesus his God and not our God... isn't that stupidity

Besides, exclamation doesn't only mean the lies you people are claiming it to be always.

An exclamation is a sound, word, or sentence that is spoken suddenly, loudly, or emphatically and that expresses excitement, admiration, shock, or anger.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/exclamation

Even though exclamation was used by some versions doesn't erase the fact what Thomas said.

The scripture recorded "and Thomas said to him" which means Thomas directed his statement to Jesus and knew excertlly what he said.

Lastly, before you quote me, the person I replied said "Do you know what it means for someone to call another 'My God'? It means the person (called my God) received worship and prayers"

But after you erroneously jump into what doesn't concern you, you agreed Thomas called Jesus my God and that's only for Thomas and not us since he didn't say our God. You even went further to use "my president" as an example.


Shalom!

Janosky:


These lying Pharisees rejected the words Jesus himself spoke to them in John 14:28, 20:17. 5:37. 6:46 & 10:34-36. Rev 3:5,12-14,21 & Matt16:13-17.
Rather than listen to Jesus, they cherished the junk their pastors dish out to them.

The words Jesus spoke in the scriptures cited above are irrevocable, your buffoonish comments reflect what's in your unreceptive heart.

You're NOT a follower of Jesus, but a lying Pharisee pretending to be Christian.

Emusan, are you or Thomas more holier and perfect than Jesus?

Jesus says he himself has a God and Father he obeys, worships and is accountable to.
Pls swallow your pride and listen to Master Jesus.

God Almighty is greater than Jesus as He says, yet Jesus is God as well

Jesus accepts worship all through his time on earth and even on departure


Matthew 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Matthew 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Matthew 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 15:25
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Matthew 18:26
The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

On his departure~~~~Luke 24:52
And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

Angel worshipped
Hebrews 1:6-8 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

This not a coincidence~ when it got to the turn of an apostle, this is what happened~~

Acts 10:25-26 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.



He is not Angel
Hebrews 1 explains this and some part of charter 2.

God and Jesus are co-creator
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made

Hebrews 3:3-6 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


God Almighty is GOD
Jesus Christ is GOD
The Holy Spirit is GOD

GOD ALMIGHTY can be worshipped
JESUS Christ can be worshipped
The Holy Spirit not to be worshipped

God Almighty is Head and Superior
Jesus Christ is the son/body
The Holy Spirit helps a believer to know about God or is the spirit of God.

The bible has also foretell these times of separating the father and son~~

1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

They are inseparable

Isce:
God Almighty is greater than Jesus as He says, yet Jesus is God as well

Jesus accepts worship all through his time on earth and even on departure


Matthew 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Matthew 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Matthew 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 15:25
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Matthew 18:26
The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

On his departure~~~~Luke 24:52
And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

Angel worshipped
Hebrews 1:6-8 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

This not a coincidence~ when it got to the turn of an apostle, this is what happened~~

Acts 10:25-26 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.



He is not Angel
Hebrews 1 explains this and some part of charter 2.

God and Jesus are co-creator
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made

God Almighty is GOD
Jesus Christ is GOD
The Holy Spirit is GOD

GOD ALMIGHTY can be worshipped
JESUS Christ can be worshipped
The Holy Spirit not to be worshipped

God Almighty is Head and Superior
Jesus Christ is the son

You're still confused.
Read Rev:5,12-14,21& other verses in my preceding post.
Greek proskyneo rendered "worship" in Matt2:11, 8:2, etc , the word also mean bow down, prostrate, pay homage, do obeisance etc.
Don't let. KJV deceive you , those men who visited the baby Jesus paid. homage, not actually worship , Jesus says worship is meant for his Father and God. Matt4:10.
Context is key.

Janosky:

You're still confused.
Read Rev:5,12-14,21& other verses in my preceding post.
Greek proskyneo rendered "worship" in Matt2:11, 8:2, etc , the word also mean bow down, prostrate, pay homage, do obeisance etc.
Don't let. KJV deceive you , those men who visited the baby Jesus paid. homage, not actually worship , Jesus says worship is meant for his Father and God. Matt4:10.
Context is key.

These text are not intended to appeal to your position, like I said before, open a thread and I will bring gospel facts to you. You are confuse your self but never mind I understand your position.

Janosky:

You're still confused.
Read Rev:5,12-14,21& other verses in my preceding post.
Greek proskyneo rendered "worship" in Matt2:11, 8:2, etc , the word also mean bow down, prostrate, pay homage, do obeisance etc.
Don't let. KJV deceive you , those men who visited the baby Jesus paid. homage, not actually worship , Jesus says worship is meant for his Father and God. Matt4:10.
Context is key.

Let me put you through a test and see if you are not blind.

Bring scriptures of the Father testimony of the Son especially what he says about worship to his son.

KJV deceive me!!!
It is well.

Janosky:

You're still confused.
Read Rev:5,12-14,21& other verses in my preceding post.
Greek proskyneo rendered "worship" in Matt2:11, 8:2, etc , the word also mean bow down, prostrate, pay homage, do obeisance etc.
Don't let. KJV deceive you , those men who visited the baby Jesus paid. homage, not actually worship , Jesus says worship is meant for his Father and God. Matt4:10.
Context is key.

You think in your heart that I will be following your post. You are funny.
You are not the object here.

Nobody notices because when in a cult the leader is all knowing. If they say proskuneo means do obeisance to Jesus and the same word means to worship Jehovah then that is what they will believe.

Worship as applied to Jesus by the WT;

Matthew 2:2 Saying <lego>, Where <pou> is <esti> he that is born <tikto> King <basileus> of the Jews <Ioudaios>? for <gar> we have seen <eido> his <autos> star <aster> in <en> the east <anatole>, and <kai> are come <erchomai> to worship <proskuneo> him <autos>. KJ

NWT; 2 saying: “Where is the one born king of the Jews? For we saw his star [when we were] in the east, and we have come to do him obeisance.”

As applied to the Father;

KJ John 4:23 But <alla> the hour <hora> cometh <erchomai>, and <kai> now <nun> is <esti>, when <hote> the true <alethinos> worshippers <proskunetes> shall worship <proskuneo> the Father <pater> in <en> spirit <pneuma> and <kai> in truth <aletheia>: for <kai> <gar> the Father <pater> seeketh <zeteo> such <toioutos> to worship <proskuneo> him <autos>.

NWT John 4: 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him.

Worship Jesus ; Hebrews 1:6 And <de> again <palin>, when <hotan> he bringeth in <eisago> the firstbegotten <prototokos> into <eis> the world <oikoumene>, he saith <lego>, And <kai> let <proskuneo> all <pas> the angels <aggelos> of God <theos> worship <proskuneo> him <autos>.

NWT; Hebrews 1: 6 But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.”

They do this because it is what keeps millions of people blinded to who the Bible says Jesus really is. That way they can make people slaves to them instead of friends of Jesus.

Joshua 1:8
This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe[color=#550000][/color] to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

Isce:


Let me put you through a test and see if you are not blind.

Bring scriptures of the Father testimony of the Son especially what he says about worship to his son.

KJV deceive me!!!
It is well.

Isce:


Let me put you through a test and see if you are not blind.

Bring scriptures of the Father testimony of the Son especially what he says about worship to his son.

KJV deceive me!!!
It is well.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/Lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g4353
Proskyneo definition:
"In New Testament, by kneeling or prostration to do homage whether in order to express respect or to make supplication"
a) Of homage shown to men of superior rank.:Matt20:20.
Isce , did the mother of Zebedee's sons pay homage to Jesus ?
Your KJV deceived you that she "worshipped him"

KJV translated proskyneo 60 times as "worship".
That's very wrong and misleading to gullible folks like you.
Phil2:9,10 Jehovah "God exalted him ... that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow..." or pay homage , prostration to Jesus.
Therefore, to insert "worship" in hebrew 1:6 is criminal , misleading

Isce:
Nobody notices because when in a cult the leader is all knowing. If they say proskuneo means do obeisance to Jesus and the same word means to worship Jehovah then that is what they will believe.

Worship as applied to Jesus by the WT;

Matthew 2:2 Saying <lego>, Where <pou> is <esti> he that is born <tikto> King <basileus> of the Jews <Ioudaios>? for <gar> we have seen <eido> his <autos> star <aster> in <en> the east <anatole>, and <kai> are come <erchomai> to worship <proskuneo> him <autos>. KJ

NWT; 2 saying: “Where is the one born king of the Jews? For we saw his star [when we were] in the east, and we have come to do him obeisance.”

As applied to the Father;

KJ John 4:23 But <alla> the hour <hora> cometh <erchomai>, and <kai> now <nun> is <esti>, when <hote> the true <alethinos> worshippers <proskunetes> shall worship <proskuneo> the Father <pater> in <en> spirit <pneuma> and <kai> in truth <aletheia>: for <kai> <gar> the Father <pater> seeketh <zeteo> such <toioutos> to worship <proskuneo> him <autos>.

NWT John 4: 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him.

Worship Jesus ; Hebrews 1:6 And <de> again <palin>, when <hotan> he bringeth in <eisago> the firstbegotten <prototokos> into <eis> the world <oikoumene>, he saith <lego>, And <kai> let <proskuneo> all <pas> the angels <aggelos> of God <theos> worship <proskuneo> him <autos>.

NWT; Hebrews 1: 6 But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.”

They do this because it is what keeps millions of people blinded to who the Bible says Jesus really is. That way they can make people slaves to them instead of friends of Jesus.

.....

Isce:
. If they say proskuneo means do obeisance to Jesus and the same word means to worship Jehovah then that is what they will believe.



Matthew 2:2 Saying <lego>, Where <pou> is <esti> he that is born <tikto> King <basileus> of the Jews <Ioudaios>? for <gar> we have seen <eido> his <autos> star <aster> in <en> the east <anatole>, and <kai> are come <erchomai> to worship <proskuneo> him <autos>. KJ

NWT; 2 saying: “Where is the one born king of the Jews? For we saw his star [when we were] in the east, and we have come to do him obeisance.”

As applied to the Father;

KJ John 4:23 But <alla> the hour <hora> cometh <erchomai>, and <kai> now <nun> is <esti>, when <hote> the true <alethinos> worshippers <proskunetes> shall worship <proskuneo> the Father <pater> in <en> spirit <pneuma> and <kai> in truth <aletheia>: for <kai> <gar> the Father <pater> seeketh <zeteo> such <toioutos> to worship <proskuneo> him <autos>.

NWT John 4: 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him.

Worship Jesus ; Hebrews 1:6 And <de> again <palin>, when <hotan> he bringeth in <eisago> the firstbegotten <prototokos> into <eis> the world <oikoumene>, he saith <lego>, And <kai> let <proskuneo> all <pas> the angels <aggelos> of God <theos> worship <proskuneo> him <autos>.

NWT; Hebrews 1: 6 But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.”

.

Janosky:


https://www.blueletterbible.org/Lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g4353
Proskyneo definition:
"In New Testament, by kneeling or prostration to do homage whether in order to express respect or to make supplication"
a) Of homage shown to men of superior rank.:Matt20:20.
Isce , did the mother of Zebedee's sons pay homage to Jesus ?
Your KJV deceived you that she "worshipped him"

KJV translated proskyneo 60 times as "worship".
That's very wrong and misleading to gullible folks like you.
Phil2:9,10 Jehovah "God exalted him ... that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow..." or pay homage , prostration to Jesus.
Therefore, to insert "worship" in hebrew 1:6 is criminal , misleading

Lying Pharisee, wey deceive himself.
Jesus quoted Deu6:13 "thou shalt worship Jehovah thy God and only him shalt thou serve..." in Matt 4:10.

Jesus says worship exclusively belongs to his God and Father.

Phil 2:9,10 & Matt4:10 was meant to reset your Pharisee brain.

In Hebrew1:6, proskyneo there means 'obeisance' , that's what Jehovah is saying.

Jesus says you're lying (Matt4:10).

Nobody notices because when in a cult the leader is all knowing. If they say proskuneo means do obeisance to Jesus and the same word means to worship Jehovah then that is what they will believe.

Worship as applied to Jesus by the WT;

Matthew 2:2 Saying <lego>, Where <pou> is <esti> he that is born <tikto> King <basileus> of the Jews <Ioudaios>? for <gar> we have seen <eido> his <autos> star <aster> in <en> the east <anatole>, and <kai> are come <erchomai> to worship <proskuneo> him <autos>. KJ

NWT; 2 saying: “Where is the one born king of the Jews? For we saw his star [when we were] in the east, and we have come to do him obeisance.”

As applied to the Father;

KJ John 4:23 But <alla> the hour <hora> cometh <erchomai>, and <kai> now <nun> is <esti>, when <hote> the true <alethinos> worshippers <proskunetes> shall worship <proskuneo> the Father <pater> in <en> spirit <pneuma> and <kai> in truth <aletheia>: for <kai> <gar> the Father <pater> seeketh <zeteo> such <toioutos> to worship <proskuneo> him <autos>.

NWT John 4: 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him.

Worship Jesus ; Hebrews 1:6 And <de> again <palin>, when <hotan> he bringeth in <eisago> the firstbegotten <prototokos> into <eis> the world <oikoumene>, he saith <lego>, And <kai> let <proskuneo> all <pas> the angels <aggelos> of God <theos> worship <proskuneo> him <autos>.

NWT; Hebrews 1: 6 But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.”

They do this because it is what keeps millions of people blinded to who the Bible says Jesus really is. That way they can make people slaves to them instead of friends of Jesus.

The first fact is this: Jesus said to proskuneo no one but the Father. This is in Matthew 4 and Luke 4, parallel accounts of Jesus’ temptation in which Satan asks Jesus to bow down. The word used is proskuneo . We also see the angel in Revelation 19:10 and 22:9 saying, ” proskuneo no one but the Father.”

Second point, there are 22 references citing the Father receiving proskuneo .

Third point, we also see that Jesus received proskuneo (14 references).

Fourth point, 14 additional references indicate improper proskuneo of the devil, demons, idols or the beast of Revelation. In other words, people worshipping the devil, demons, idols, falling down before them, that was not right and it was clear from the context that it wasn’t right. And there are three other cases where men or angels are proskuneoed , worshipped. Cornelius fell down in Acts 10:25 and the Apostle John–surprisingly the beloved apostle himself–fell down before the angel of Revelation in 19:10, 22:8 and he was corrected for doing this.

The fifth fact is that we also see men receiving proskuneo , the point my caller was bringing up. One time the action was forced by God (Rev 3:9). The only other time was in Matthew’s Gospel (8:26), “The slave therefore falling down, prostrated himself [ proskuneo ] before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will repay you everything.'” This was the story Jesus told of the man who owed much and then was forgiven that debt after being threatened with being hauled off and thrown into the debtors’ prison.

proskuneo

The most important things about what I’ve done so far is that these five observations bring us to one simple conclusion and raise one simple question. The simple conclusion is that there is a type of proskuneo that is worship reserved to God alone, and there is a type of proskuneo that can be done with men–a bowing down, a courtesy, a sign of deference and respect, a tipping-the-hat, so to speak. In other words, sometimes it’s okay and sometimes it isn’t. What’s the difference?

Here’s the simple question: How would one distinguish between bowing low to a man in respect, which is allowed, and true worship, which is forbidden? Or more specific to our task, “Did people worship Jesus or did they merely bow low in respect?” To answer that we have to go back to the text.

As I looked at these texts, I realized something. There is a type of proskuneo that cannot be mistaken for mere courtesy. In Acts 10:25 Cornelius fell at Peter’s feet and proskuneo (“worshipped”) him. In Revelation 19:10 and 22:8 John fell at the angel’s feet twice and proskuneo (“worshipped”) him. Both Cornelius and John were seriously reprimanded. Why?

The reason they were reprimanded is that proskuneo is generally translated to bow down but–listen closely–if a person is already down, the addition of proskuneo must indicate worship. Cornelius didn’t fall at Peter’s feet and then bow down, he was already down. John didn’t fall down at the angel’s feet and then bow down, he was already down. They both fell down and worshipped. Ergo the strong words of correction: “Worship God, not me.”

Remember the words of the devil in the temptation in Matthew 4:9? “And he said to Him, ‘All these things will I give You, if You fall down and worship me.'” No possibility of mistaking that. Then Jesus said to him, “Begone, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.'”

There are six different references that include the phrase “falling down” with the worship of God. In fact, the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures in Revelation were always keeling over at the foot of the throne and worshipping ( proskuneo ) the Father (1 Cor 14:25, Rev 4:10, 5:14, 7:11, 11:16 and 19:4).

By the way, it isn’t just falling down and worshipping that’s condemned. There are twelve references where demons, idols or the beast of Revelation are merely proskuneo, worshipped (no reference to “falling down”) and it’s condemned. But the addition of the notion of falling down in other places merely makes the meaning impossible to miss in the context.

Does this happen with any mere man? Only once in Matthew 18:26, “The slave therefore falling down, proskuneo (“prostrated himself”) before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will repay you everything.'” Keep in mind, though no editorial comment is made whether this is right or wrong. And let’s face it, this guy is groveling for his life in the illustration that Jesus is giving. He may have been attempting to worship, we simply don’t know. This doesn’t tell us about the particular meaning of the word.

Now to the point of our study: what kind of proskuneo was given to Jesus?

The word proskuneo is used fourteen times of Jesus. There are six different times proskuneo is used of Jesus where it seems clear from the context that courtesy, respect or deference is in view. The leper came to Him and bowed down to Him, saying, “Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean.” In Matthew 9:18, “While He was saying these things to them, behold, there came a synagogue official and he bowed down before Him, saying, ‘My daughter has just died; but come and lay Your hand on her, and she will live.'” In Matthew 15:25, we see a Canaanite woman whose daughter was demon-possessed bowing down before Him and saying, “Lord, help me!” In Matthew 20:20 the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to Him on behalf of her sons, bowing down and making a request of Him. Nothing in the context indicates that anything other than deference or respect is going on.

There are two cases that are not clear. The demon possessed man from Gadarenes, Mark 5:6. And also Mark 15:19, the soldiers are bowing down and mocking Jesus. We don’t know if they are mocking deference or mocking worship. It just doesn’t say. So let’s just set those aside for the time being.

But what of the other eight references of proskuneo to Jesus? You tell me based on what we’ve already covered. Matthew 2:2, 8, 11, “‘Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him.’….[Herod says,] ‘Go and make careful search for the Child; and when you have found Him, report to me, that I too may come and worship Him.’….And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother and they fell down and worshiped Him….” Matthew 28:9, “And they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy and ran to report it to His disciples. And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.”

The Magi and the Christ child with the miraculous star overhead, the disciples with the risen Jesus, are not falling down and then bowing down; they’re already down. They are falling down and, as the New American Bible accurately translates it, worshipping Jesus Christ.

What of the other cases? Matthew 14:3, Peter gets out of the boat and walks on the water. Peter starts to sink, Jesus reaches out and saves him. And when they got into the boat the wind stopped. And those who were in the boat worshipped Him saying, ” You are certainly God’s Son!” These people are not just tipping their hats to an esteemed person. In Matthew 28:17 it says, “And when they saw Him, [the risen Jesus Christ whom they knew had been dead and was now alive] they worshipped Him.” And then in John 9:38 the man blind from birth is healed. He said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him. Hebrews 1:6, “And when He again brings the first-born into the world He says, ‘And let all the angels of God worship Him.'”

These verses show much more than mere respect, much more than deference, much more than courtesy. Jesus is being worshipped. Yes, there are times when the word proskuneo is used of Jesus and other men and it doesn’t refer to worship. The context tells us. We looked at the context and especially the use of the phrase “falling down and worshipping.” It seems hard to escape the conclusion that Jesus is being worshipped.

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Note that there is no justification for translating proskuneo as worship in contexts dealing with the Father and as obeisance in contexts dealing with Jesus. In both contexts worship is the clear and obvious meaning because Jesus is God! And He is better than the angels, who are called to worship Him as God!


Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE." (NASB: Lockman)

Greek: kai pros men tous aggelous legei, (3SPAI) O poion (PAPMSN) tous aggelous autou pneumata, kai tous leitourgous autou puros phoga;
ICB: This is what God said about the angels: "God makes his angels become like winds. He makes his servants become like flames of fire. (ICB: Nelson)
KJV: And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Phillips: This is what he says of the angels: 'Who makes his angels spirits and his ministers a flame of fire' (Phillips: Touchstone)
Wuest: And with reference to the angels He says, Who makes His angels spirits, and His servants a flame of fire. (Eerdmans)
Young's Literal: and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, 'Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;'

AND OF THE ANGELS HE SAYS "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE: kai pros men tous aggelous legei, (3SPAI) O poion (PAPMSN) tous aggelous autou pneumata, kai tous leitourgous autou puros phoga; : (Heb 1:14; 2Ki 2:11; 6:17; Ps 104:4; Isa 6:2;Ezek 1:13 14; Da 7:10; Zec 6:5)

Ps 104:4 is a song of creation (heavens, seas, earth, sun, moon, angels)...Thou hast made them all

Ps 104:4 He makes the winds His messengers, Flaming fire His ministers.

Spurgeon comments on Psalm 104:4 (note)

Who maketh his angels spirits; or wields, for the word means either. Angels are pure spirits, though they are permitted to assume a visible form when God desires us to see them. God is a spirit, and he is waited upon by spirits in his royal courts. Angels are like winds for mystery, force, and invisibility, and no doubt the winds themselves are often the angels or messengers of God. God who makes his angels to be as winds, can also make winds to be his angels, and they are constantly so in the economy of nature.

His ministers a flaming fire. Here, too, we may choose which we will of two meanings: God's ministers or servants he makes to be as swift, potent, and terrible as fire, and on the other hand he makes fire, that devouring element, to be his minister flaming forth upon his errands. That the passage refers to angels is clear from Hebrews 1:7; and it was most proper to mention them here in connection with light and the heavens, and immediately after the robes and paltree of the Great King. Should not the retinue of the Lord of Hosts be mentioned as well as his chariot? It would have been a flaw in the description of the universe had the angels not been alluded to, and this is the most appropriate place for their introduction. When we think of the extraordinary powers entrusted to angelic beings, and the mysterious glory of the seraphim and the four living creatures, we are led to reflect upon the glory of the Master whom they serve, and again we cry out with the psalmist, "O Lord, my God, thou art very great."

God calls his angels

"messengers swift as the wind, and servants made of flaming fire. (NLT)

Who makes His angels spirits (NKJV)

He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire (NIV)

Who is making His messengers spirits (YLT)

Makes (4160) (poieo) means to create and since Jesus is the Creator of all things (see note on Colossians 1:18), the angels were created by Him and therefore Jesus is better than the angels.

Some translators have read this statement as

God made the winds His messengers, and the fires His servants.

The inspired NT writer here quotes it properly

And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire

The angels are spiritual not physical beings though they can assume physical bodies on occasion. Angels are commonly associated in Scripture with the stars (which are "flaming fires" (Cp Jdg 5:20-note; Job 38:7; Isa 14:12,14 [which many feel describes Satan]; Rev 1:20-note; Re 12:3-9-note)

Spurgeon comments that...

Angels are servants and not kings, they fly upon the divine errands like flames of fire, but they do not sway a sceptre, neither have they a throne existing for ever and ever. Jesus is the anointed king, and though we share in the anointing yet is He far above us. Christ is infinitely greater than Christians. We are right glad to have it so.

PROSKYNEO-Always "Worship"?

At Matthew 2:11 the American Standard Version reads:

"And they[the 'magi']came into the house and saw the young child with Mary his mother: and they fell down and worshipped[Gk: PROSKYNEO]him;..."

In a footnote they add:

"³The Greek word denotes an act of reverence whether paid to a creature(see ch. 4:19, 18, 26), or to the Creator(see ch. 4:10)."

Also at this place Weymouth's translation reads: "..they prostrated themselves and did Him homage...".

Again, in a footnote, we can read: "[vv]8, 11. Do him homage] Or perhaps 'worship' See John ix. 38.n."

An accusation of the New World Translation usually reads:

"Matthew 2:11: "Bowed down and worshipped him" changed to "did obeisance to it". The JWs evade recognizing Jesus as worthy of worship as a divine being by altering the form of honor that he receives from men and angels. The Greek word proskuneo literally means "worship." The use of "obeisance" is a NWT adaptation. (Same revision found in Matt. 8:2; 9:18, 14:33; 15:25; 28:9, 17; *Mark 5:6(see remark * below); 15:19; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; Heb. 1:6.)"

Rendering PROSKYNEO as "obeisance" can hardly be termed a "NWT adaptation!

Vines Expository Dictionary says under this word:

"1.PROSKUNEO...,to make obeisance, do reverence to(from pros, towards, and kuneo, to kiss)is the most frequent word rendered to worship."

A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, by G.Abbott-Smith, 3rd edition, p.386 says:

"[pros-kuneo],..(< kuneo,to kiss),....to make obeisance, do reverance to, worship.

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, by William F.Arndt and F.Wilbur Gingrich, 1957, says on pages 723,724, under proskuneo:

"...used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person, and kissing his feet, the hem of his garment, the ground, etc, .....(fall down) worship, do obeisance to, prostrate oneself before, do reverence to, welcome respectfully.(see here Reinecker's Linguistic Key, p.2, where the above is quoted at Matthew 2:2)

"1 to human beings who, however, are to be recognised by this act as belonging to a supernatural realm...

"2 to God...a)of the God worshipped by monotheists...

"5)to Jesus, who is revered and worshipped as Messianic King and Divine Helper: Mt.2:2, 8, 11; 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; J 9:38.....-The risen Lord is esp.the object of worship: Mt.28:9,17; Lk 24:52..."

Lastly, The New Thayers Greek-Lexicon of the New Testament, Joseph Henry Thayer, p.548:

"[proskuneo]......to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence....hence in the N.T. by kneeling or prostration to do homage(to one)or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication...".

*Regarding Mark 5:6 where in the KJV we read "But when he[the demon-possessed man]saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him." Ralph Earle in his Word Meanings In The New Testament writes: "Worshipped It is true that proskyneo...means "to make obeisance, do reverence to, worship. The pertinent question remains: Would the demon-possessed man be worshipping Jesus, even though he called Him "Son of the Most High God"(NASB, NIV, RSV)? Probably "fell on his knees in front of him"(NIV) is a safer translation."-p.37, Hendrickson Publishers, 4th printing, June 2000.

We see here that _context_ can determine what kind of PROSKYNEO it is that is being rendered.

So "to do obeisance" is an acceptable rendition for PROSKYNEO. There is nothing in the word itself, when used in respect to Jesus, that it meant the worship of that one as God Almighty.

So that, while the New International Version says at Matthew 2:11:

"[the Magi] bowed down and worshipped him[the babe Jesus],"

the Revised English Bible (1990)reads here:

"they bowed low in homage to him."

Did the Magi do PROSKYNEO to the babe Jesus as to one born a King or as God Almighty? Surely it was the former. The word at Matthew 2:11 has the same sense of "worship" or "obeisance" that the Canaanites received from Abraham(Gen 23:7, 12.LXX),or that Esau received from his brother Jacob(Gen.33:3, 6, 7.LXX) and toward Daniel from King Nebuchadnezzar(Daniel 2:46,LXX). When we "bow down to," or do "worship"(PROSKYNEO) towards one that is not Jehovah God then that "worship" is different from that which we give to Him. But in the Bible the same word is used whether such "worship" is that directed toward God, or men, or angels(creatures).

The New World Translation is no more inconsistent in it's treatment of this word than the Revised English Bible.

Whilst the REV has "bowed down"[PROSKYNEO] at Matthew 2:11 in respect of the Magi towards Jesus, it renders PROSKYNEO at John 4:23,24 as "worship" when Jesus tells the Samaritan woman that :

"God is spirit,and those who worship[PROSKYNEO] him must worship[PROSKYNEO] in spirit and truth."

At Revelation 3:9 Jesus says, according to the King James Version:

"Behold, I will make them of the synogogue of Satan....behold, I will make them to come down and worship[PROSKYNEO] before thy feet."

Did Jesus mean to contradict himself here when earlier he had said that only God should be worshipped? (Matthew 4:10.) Of course not. It is simply that PROSKYNEO can be, as has already been shown, to have the sense of "bowing down" as to a superior or the giving of honour, respect. Hence, most modern Bible versions i.e. NIV, TEV, REB do not so render PROSKYNEO here, Rev.3:9, as "worship".

Therefore, at this point, we should be able to see that it would _not_ be inconsistent to render PROSKYNEO at times as "to do obeisance," or at times "worship".

The English word "worship" to a reader or the Bible _might_ lead them to think that that in itself is 'proof' that Jesus is God for only God should be "worshipped". They might consider when coming across "worship" toward Jesus(in any translation that does so)as "adoration paid to God."-The New Universal Dictionary. That is the first definition given. But not the only one. This same dictionary also defines the English word "worship" as "the quality of being worthy; honour, respect, reverence...submissive respect." Hence, even though a translator would choose to always translate PROSKYNEO as "worship" this would be no proof that Jesus is God and hence, consequently, the converse would also be true: That to render PROSKYNEO as "obeisance" when given to Jesus would not be "remov[ing] every reference to Jesus' being worshiped." What this means is that we must not read too much into translations that choose to translate PROSKYNEO as "worship" in reference to Jesus as if that then shows that Jesus, the Son, must be God. The Greek word itself does not show this. Hence, the translator's theology has a rightful role to play in the choice of the English rendering of PROSKYNEO.

Some would object to the New World Translation's position here because they believe that Jesus is God. But it has first to be accepted that the word PROSKYNEO can be rendered the way the NWT, and indeed others, have so done. And that it is wholly incorrect to call it a "NWT adaptation" or an "inconsistency"! But the question remains:

Why has the NWT rendered it as "obeisance" when it is used in reference to Jesus?

It would be best here to let The Watchtower magazine of November 15th, 1970 answer. It says, partly:

" While some translators use the word "worship" in the majority of cases where proskyneo describes persons' actions toward Jesus, the evidence does not warrant one's reading too much into this rendering. Rather, the circumstances that evoked the obeisance correspond very closely with those producing obeisance to the earlier prophets and kings. (Compare Matthew 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 20:20 with 1 Samuel 25:23, 24; 2 Samuel 14:4-7; 1 Kings 1:16; 2 Kings 4:36, 37.)

"The very expressions of those involved often reveal that, while they clearly recognized Jesus as God's representative, they rendered obeisance to him, not as to God or a deity, but as "God's Son," the foretold "Son of man," the Messiah with divine authority.- Matt. 14:32, 33; 28:5-10, 16-18; Luke 24:50-52; John 9:35, 38. While earlier prophets and also angels had accepted obeisance, Peter stopped Cornelius from rendering such to him. And the angel (or angels) of John's vision twice stopped John from doing so, referring to himself as a "fellow slave"and concluding with the exhortation to "worship God."-Acts 10:25, 26; Rev. 19:10; 22:8, 9.

"Evidently Christ's coming had brought in new relationships affecting standards of conduct toward others of God's servants. He taught his disciples that "one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers . . . your Leader is one, the Christ." (Matt. 23:8-12) For it was in him that the prophetic figures and types found their fulfillment, even as the angel told John that "the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying." (Rev. 19:10) Jesus was David's Lord, the greater than Solomon, the prophet greater than Moses. (Luke 20:41-43; Matt. 12:42; Acts 3:19-24) The obeisance rendered those men prefigured that due Christ. Peter therefore rightly refused to let Cornelius make too much of him. So, too, John, by virtue of having been declared righteous or justified by God as an anointed Christian, called to be a heavenly son of God and a member of his Son's kingdom, was in a different relationship to the angel(s) of the revelation than were the Israelites to whom angels earlier appeared. As the apostle Paul had written: "Do you not know that we shall judge angels?" (1 Cor. 6:3) The angel(s) evidently recognized this change of relationship when rejecting John's obeisance. On the other hand, Christ Jesus has been exalted by his Father to a position second only to God, so that "in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."- Phil. 2:9-11; compare Daniel 7:13, 14, 27."

One Catholic critic has recently stated:

"The point is that legitimate bibles use the word[proskyneo]consistently, and let the reader interpret its meaning - which can mean either our traditional use of the word today - being ‘adoration’ or simply just ‘obeisance’. My point is that the NWT should not impose its theology by dicing up ‘proskuneo’ between obeisance and worship - one to apply to Jesus and other creatures and the other to God. Translate the Greek word consistently, and then try and explain passages that appear to go against your interpretation. The Watchtower does the exact opposite. It imposes its theology on ‘proskuneo’ to take the ‘difficulty’ out of the interpretation. To me, that is an abomination"

He said this after quoting the Jerusalem Bible in passages in Matthew where proskyneo is used toward Jesus. But if this gentleman had checked this up with another Catholic translation the New American Bible of 1986 he might have been more restrained in his comments toward the WTB&TS and the New World Translation. In actual fact the New American Bible is not as consistent as he probably would like. Though the NAB does translate proskyneo as "homage" at Matthew 2:2,8,11; 8:2; 9:18: 14:33; 15:25; 18:26; 20:20; 28:9 it does not do so at Matthew 28:17. Would this critic call the NAB here at this place "an abomination" because of failing to be "consistent" with the other places it translates the word as "homage"? The Revised English Bible has done exactly the same. Another Bible translation that was also not "consistent" at Matthew 28:17 because it rendered proskyneo differently than the other places cited above? See also Barclay's translation. But going back to the New American Translation. If one looks up in how it has translated proskneo at Mark 5:6; Luke 24:52; John 9:38 we can see that it does not measure up to this critic level of consistency for in those places in Mark and Luke it is rendered as "prostrated" and "homage" respectively yet in John 9:38 as "worship." So when the critic says "The point is that legitimate bibles use the word[proskyneo]consistently, and let the reader interpret its meaning" has he not charged the Catholic New American Bible as one that is not "legitimate"? Does he feel that same way toward the New American Bible as he does toward the New World Translation : "To me, that is an abomination." Yet the New American Bible has the nihil obstat and imprimatuer of the Catholic Church. Has he not called an "abomination" that which has the witness of his own Catholic Church that it is a faithful translation of the Holy Word?

Of course, neither the New World Translation or any other Bible translation including the New American Bible "dices" up "'proskuneo’ between "obeisance" and "worship." Any glance at a good Greek lexicon as can be seen above will make that charge a lie.

Isce:
Note that there is no justification for translating proskuneo as worship in contexts dealing with the Father and as obeisance in contexts dealing with Jesus.

Isce:
PROSKYNEO-Always "Worship"?

At Matthew 2:11 the American Standard Version reads:

"And they[the 'magi']came into the house and saw the young child with Mary his mother: and they fell down and worshipped[Gk: PROSKYNEO]him;..."

In a footnote they add:

"³The Greek word denotes an act of reverence whether paid to a creature(see ch. 4:19, 18, 26), or to the Creator(see ch. 4:10)."

Also at this place Weymouth's translation reads: "..they prostrated themselves and did Him homage...".

Again, in a footnote, we can read: "[vv]8, 11. Do him homage] Or perhaps 'worship' See John ix. 38.n."

An accusation of the New World Translation usually reads:

"Matthew 2:11: "Bowed down and worshipped him" changed to "did obeisance to it". The JWs evade recognizing Jesus as worthy of worship as a divine being by altering the form of honor that he receives from men and angels. The Greek word proskuneo literally means "worship." The use of "obeisance" is a NWT adaptation. (Same revision found in Matt. 8:2; 9:18, 14:33; 15:25; 28:9, 17; *Mark 5:6(see remark * below); 15:19; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; Heb. 1:6.)"

Rendering PROSKYNEO as "obeisance" can hardly be termed a "NWT adaptation!

Vines Expository Dictionary says under this word:

"1.PROSKUNEO...,to make obeisance, do reverence to(from pros, towards, and kuneo, to kiss)is the most frequent word rendered to worship."

A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, by G.Abbott-Smith, 3rd edition, p.386 says:

"[pros-kuneo],..(< kuneo,to kiss),....to make obeisance, do reverance to, worship.

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, by William F.Arndt and F.Wilbur Gingrich, 1957, says on pages 723,724, under proskuneo:

"...used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person, and kissing his feet, the hem of his garment, the ground, etc, .....(fall down) worship, do obeisance to, prostrate oneself before, do reverence to, welcome respectfully.(see here Reinecker's Linguistic Key, p.2, where the above is quoted at Matthew 2:2)

"1 to human beings who, however, are to be recognised by this act as belonging to a supernatural realm...

"2 to God...a)of the God worshipped by monotheists...

"5)to Jesus, who is revered and worshipped as Messianic King and Divine Helper: Mt.2:2, 8, 11; 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; J 9:38.....-The risen Lord is esp.the object of worship: Mt.28:9,17; Lk 24:52..."

Lastly, The New Thayers Greek-Lexicon of the New Testament, Joseph Henry Thayer, p.548:

"[proskuneo]......to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence....hence in the N.T. by kneeling or prostration to do homage(to one)or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication...".

*Regarding Mark 5:6 where in the KJV we read "But when he[the demon-possessed man]saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him." Ralph Earle in his Word Meanings In The New Testament writes: "Worshipped It is true that proskyneo...means "to make obeisance, do reverence to, worship. The pertinent question remains: Would the demon-possessed man be worshipping Jesus, even though he called Him "Son of the Most High God"(NASB, NIV, RSV)? Probably "fell on his knees in front of him"(NIV) is a safer translation."-p.37, Hendrickson Publishers, 4th printing, June 2000.

We see here that _context_ can determine what kind of PROSKYNEO it is that is being rendered.

So "to do obeisance" is an acceptable rendition for PROSKYNEO. There is nothing in the word itself, when used in respect to Jesus, that it meant the worship of that one as God Almighty.

So that, while the New International Version says at Matthew 2:11:

"[the Magi] bowed down and worshipped him[the babe Jesus],"

the Revised English Bible (1990)reads here:

"they bowed low in homage to him."

Did the Magi do PROSKYNEO to the babe Jesus as to one born a King or as God Almighty? Surely it was the former. The word at Matthew 2:11 has the same sense of "worship" or "obeisance" that the Canaanites received from Abraham(Gen 23:7, 12.LXX),or that Esau received from his brother Jacob(Gen.33:3, 6, 7.LXX) and toward Daniel from King Nebuchadnezzar(Daniel 2:46,LXX). When we "bow down to," or do "worship"(PROSKYNEO) towards one that is not Jehovah God then that "worship" is different from that which we give to Him. But in the Bible the same word is used whether such "worship" is that directed toward God, or men, or angels(creatures).

The New World Translation is no more inconsistent in it's treatment of this word than the Revised English Bible.

Whilst the REV has "bowed down"[PROSKYNEO] at Matthew 2:11 in respect of the Magi towards Jesus, it renders PROSKYNEO at John 4:23,24 as "worship" when Jesus tells the Samaritan woman that :

"God is spirit,and those who worship[PROSKYNEO] him must worship[PROSKYNEO] in spirit and truth."

At Revelation 3:9 Jesus says, according to the King James Version:

"Behold, I will make them of the synogogue of Satan....behold, I will make them to come down and worship[PROSKYNEO] before thy feet."

Did Jesus mean to contradict himself here when earlier he had said that only God should be worshipped? (Matthew 4:10.) Of course not. It is simply that PROSKYNEO can be, as has already been shown, to have the sense of "bowing down" as to a superior or the giving of honour, respect. Hence, most modern Bible versions i.e. NIV, TEV, REB do not so render PROSKYNEO here, Rev.3:9, as "worship".

Therefore, at this point, we should be able to see that it would _not_ be inconsistent to render PROSKYNEO at times as "to do obeisance," or at times "worship".

The English word "worship" to a reader or the Bible _might_ lead them to think that that in itself is 'proof' that Jesus is God for only God should be "worshipped". They might consider when coming across "worship" toward Jesus(in any translation that does so)as "adoration paid to God."-The New Universal Dictionary. That is the first definition given. But not the only one. This same dictionary also defines the English word "worship" as "the quality of being worthy; honour, respect, reverence...submissive respect." Hence, even though a translator would choose to always translate PROSKYNEO as "worship" this would be no proof that Jesus is God and hence, consequently, the converse would also be true: That to render PROSKYNEO as "obeisance" when given to Jesus would not be "remov[ing] every reference to Jesus' being worshiped." What this means is that we must not read too much into translations that choose to translate PROSKYNEO as "worship" in reference to Jesus as if that then shows that Jesus, the Son, must be God. The Greek word itself does not show this. Hence, the translator's theology has a rightful role to play in the choice of the English rendering of PROSKYNEO.

Some would object to the New World Translation's position here because they believe that Jesus is God. But it has first to be accepted that the word PROSKYNEO can be rendered the way the NWT, and indeed others, have so done. And that it is wholly incorrect to call it a "NWT adaptation" or an "inconsistency"! But the question remains:

Why has the NWT rendered it as "obeisance" when it is used in reference to Jesus?

It would be best here to let The Watchtower magazine of November 15th, 1970 answer. It says, partly:

" While some translators use the word "worship" in the majority of cases where proskyneo describes persons' actions toward Jesus, the evidence does not warrant one's reading too much into this rendering. Rather, the circumstances that evoked the obeisance correspond very closely with those producing obeisance to the earlier prophets and kings. (Compare Matthew 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 20:20 with 1 Samuel 25:23, 24; 2 Samuel 14:4-7; 1 Kings 1:16; 2 Kings 4:36, 37.)

"The very expressions of those involved often reveal that, while they clearly recognized Jesus as God's representative, they rendered obeisance to him, not as to God or a deity, but as "God's Son," the foretold "Son of man," the Messiah with divine authority.- Matt. 14:32, 33; 28:5-10, 16-18; Luke 24:50-52; John 9:35, 38. While earlier prophets and also angels had accepted obeisance, Peter stopped Cornelius from rendering such to him. And the angel (or angels) of John's vision twice stopped John from doing so, referring to himself as a "fellow slave"and concluding with the exhortation to "worship God."-Acts 10:25, 26; Rev. 19:10; 22:8, 9.

"Evidently Christ's coming had brought in new relationships affecting standards of conduct toward others of God's servants. He taught his disciples that "one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers . . . your Leader is one, the Christ." (Matt. 23:8-12) For it was in him that the prophetic figures and types found their fulfillment, even as the angel told John that "the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying." (Rev. 19:10) Jesus was David's Lord, the greater than Solomon, the prophet greater than Moses. (Luke 20:41-43; Matt. 12:42; Acts 3:19-24) The obeisance rendered those men prefigured that due Christ. Peter therefore rightly refused to let Cornelius make too much of him. So, too, John, by virtue of having been declared righteous or justified by God as an anointed Christian, called to be a heavenly son of God and a member of his Son's kingdom, was in a different relationship to the angel(s) of the revelation than were the Israelites to whom angels earlier appeared. As the apostle Paul had written: "Do you not know that we shall judge angels?" (1 Cor. 6:3) The angel(s) evidently recognized this change of relationship when rejecting John's obeisance. On the other hand, Christ Jesus has been exalted by his Father to a position second only to God, so that "in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."- Phil. 2:9-11; compare Daniel 7:13, 14, 27."

One Catholic critic has recently stated:

"The point is that legitimate bibles use the word[proskyneo]consistently, and let the reader interpret its meaning - which can mean either our traditional use of the word today - being ‘adoration’ or simply just ‘obeisance’. My point is that the NWT should not impose its theology by dicing up ‘proskuneo’ between obeisance and worship - one to apply to Jesus and other creatures and the other to God. Translate the Greek word consistently, and then try and explain passages that appear to go against your interpretation. The Watchtower does the exact opposite. It imposes its theology on ‘proskuneo’ to take the ‘difficulty’ out of the interpretation. To me, that is an abomination"

He said this after quoting the Jerusalem Bible in passages in Matthew where proskyneo is used toward Jesus. But if this gentleman had checked this up with another Catholic translation the New American Bible of 1986 he might have been more restrained in his comments toward the WTB&TS and the New World Translation. In actual fact the New American Bible is not as consistent as he probably would like. Though the NAB does translate proskyneo as "homage" at Matthew 2:2,8,11; 8:2; 9:18: 14:33; 15:25; 18:26; 20:20; 28:9 it does not do so at Matthew 28:17. Would this critic call the NAB here at this place "an abomination" because of failing to be "consistent" with the other places it translates the word as "homage"? The Revised English Bible has done exactly the same. Another Bible translation that was also not "consistent" at Matthew 28:17 because it rendered proskyneo differently than the other places cited above? See also Barclay's translation. But going back to the New American Translation. If one looks up in how it has translated proskneo at Mark 5:6; Luke 24:52; John 9:38 we can see that it does not measure up to this critic level of consistency for in those places in Mark and Luke it is rendered as "prostrated" and "homage" respectively yet in John 9:38 as "worship." So when the critic says "The point is that legitimate bibles use the word[proskyneo]consistently, and let the reader interpret its meaning" has he not charged the Catholic New American Bible as one that is not "legitimate"? Does he feel that same way toward the New American Bible as he does toward the New World Translation : "To me, that is an abomination." Yet the New American Bible has the nihil obstat and imprimatuer of the Catholic Church. Has he not called an "abomination" that which has the witness of his own Catholic Church that it is a faithful translation of the Holy Word?

Of course, neither the New World Translation or any other Bible translation including the New American Bible "dices" up "'proskuneo’ between "obeisance" and "worship." Any glance at a good Greek lexicon as can be seen above will make that charge a lie.

Isce your 2nd post shows there is justification for translating proskuneo as worship in contexts dealing with the Father and as obeisance in contexts dealing with Jesus.
2nd post contradicts your first post . you're confused and lying.

Is there for you, not the host.

I may not read them but display your reference point. My stands are clear. I'm not here to win argument but to compare facts and spiritual truth, let all make their decision.

If you are carefully reading these facts, it is good, but without faith in these facts, you can never believe. So forget comparing facts with me, is no use, my stands are clear. Whether you say they are not correct or otherwise doesn't matter to me, is only your position as regards the subject and does not make them incorrect or correct. There are lots of opposing thought out there, you and I are not the originator. Is a matter of the proves upon which your faith is established.

Luke 7:22
Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

The only thing you have are criticism ~ pastorprenuer, info to keep you blind~~ When you are on this side and you are mightily used of God to do mighty things in the name of Jesus, receiving insight, devine revelation and word of knowledge, casting out devils, ~~~ these are experience your curiosity should provoke in you, not consulting books, leaders, college~~ with no testimony and proves. Convert your career from Saul to Paul, and swim in tangible proves.

1. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Well, it was God the Father (Gal 1:1; 1 Thess 1:10); it was also Jesus Himself (Jn 2:19; 10:17-18); and it was the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:11).

2. Who gave the new covenant? The Father (Jer 31:33-34); Jesus (Heb 8:1-13; 10:29; 12:24; 13:20); the Holy Spirit (Heb 10:15-17).

3. Who sanctifies believers? The Father (1 Thess 5:23); Jesus (Heb 13:12); the Holy Spirit (1 Pet 1:2).

4. Who is the creator? The Father (Gen 1:1; Is 44:24; Acts 17:24; Eph 3:9); Jesus (Jn 1:3; Col 1:16; Heb 1:8, 10); the Holy Spirit (Job 33:4).Job 33:4.

5. Who indwells believers? The Father (1 Cor 3:16a; 2 Cor 6:16; 1 Jn 3:24); Jesus (Jn 6:56; Rom 8:10; Eph 3:17); the Holy Spirit (Jn 14:16-17; Rom 8:9, 11; 1 Cor 3:16b). The Bible even describes this in terms of different combinations: Father and Son (Jn 14:23); Father and Holy Spirit (Eph 2:21-22; 1 Jn 3:24); Son and Holy Spirit (Gal 4:6).

What one Person does, the others also do in complete agreement and unity, and the Persons “interpenetrate” each other. Christian theology has 50 cent words for this: circumincession (Latin) or perichoresis (Greek).


Cumulative arguments based on scores of individual indications become very compelling: much as a large rope, consisting of many individual strands woven together is exceedingly strong. Such is the nature of biblical indications for the Holy Trinity. We find them at every turn. No one should be led astray to think that the Holy Trinity is not “biblical.” Having seen the many reasonable proofs, we believe in faith.

Isce:
1. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Well, it was God the Father (Gal 1:1; 1 Thess 1:10); it was also Jesus Himself (Jn 2:19; 10:17-18); and it was the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:11).

2. Who gave the new covenant? The Father (Jer 31:33-34); Jesus (Heb 8:1-13; 10:29; 12:24; 13:20); the Holy Spirit (Heb 10:15-17).

3. Who sanctifies believers? The Father (1 Thess 5:23); Jesus (Heb 13:12); the Holy Spirit (1 Pet 1:2).

4. Who is the creator? The Father (Gen 1:1; Is 44:24; Acts 17:24; Eph 3:9); Jesus (Jn 1:3; Col 1:16; Heb 1:8, 10); the Holy Spirit (Job 33:4).Job 33:4.

5. Who indwells believers? The Father (1 Cor 3:16a; 2 Cor 6:16; 1 Jn 3:24); Jesus (Jn 6:56; Rom 8:10; Eph 3:17); the Holy Spirit (Jn 14:16-17; Rom 8:9, 11; 1 Cor 3:16b). The Bible even describes this in terms of different combinations: Father and Son (Jn 14:23); Father and Holy Spirit (Eph 2:21-22; 1 Jn 3:24); Son and Holy Spirit (Gal 4:6).

What one Person does, the others also do in complete agreement and unity, and the Persons “interpenetrate” each other. Christian theology has 50 cent words for this: circumincession (Latin) or perichoresis (Greek).


Cumulative arguments based on scores of individual indications become very compelling: much as a large rope, consisting of many individual strands woven together is exceedingly strong. Such is the nature of biblical indications for the Holy Trinity. We find them at every turn. No one should be led astray to think that the Holy Trinity is not “biblical.” Having seen the many reasonable proofs, we believe in faith.

I am just smiling here right now. May God continue to grant you sound wisdom.
Leave Janosky, herlecks, maximus69 in their crib. They are scared of accepting this truth because they are long lost in error and it's a pinch to their ego and rubbish of the revelation they thought once came from God.
Thanks.
God bless.

Isce:
1. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Well, it was God the Father (Gal 1:1; 1 Thess 1:10); it was also Jesus Himself (Jn 2:19; 10:17-18); and it was the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:11).

2. Who gave the new covenant? The Father (Jer 31:33-34); Jesus (Heb 8:1-13; 10:29; 12:24; 13:20); the Holy Spirit (Heb 10:15-17).

3. Who sanctifies believers? The Father (1 Thess 5:23); Jesus (Heb 13:12); the Holy Spirit (1 Pet 1:2).

4. Who is the creator? The Father (Gen 1:1; Is 44:24; Acts 17:24; Eph 3:9); Jesus (Jn 1:3; Col 1:16; Heb 1:8, 10); the Holy Spirit (Job 33:4).Job 33:4.

5. Who indwells believers? The Father (1 Cor 3:16a; 2 Cor 6:16; 1 Jn 3:24); Jesus (Jn 6:56; Rom 8:10; Eph 3:17); the Holy Spirit (Jn 14:16-17; Rom 8:9, 11; 1 Cor 3:16b). The Bible even describes this in terms of different combinations: Father and Son (Jn 14:23); Father and Holy Spirit (Eph 2:21-22; 1 Jn 3:24); Son and Holy Spirit (Gal 4:6).


.

Lying Pharisee Isce, twists the truth.
*1) Jesus NEVER raised himself from death.
" I will raise it up" John2:19. I will money for a new car", LIARS is it proof that I'm a car owner?
John10:17,18 "This command I received from my Father". The Father's command resurrected Jesus.
Peter the eyewitness of Christ's resurrection said so.
"Peter said to them.... God raised Jesus from the dead" Acts 3:12,15.
** LIAR, holy spirit did not raise Jesus.
Rom8:11 "If the spirit of God who raised Jesus dwells in you,HE (God) WHO RAISED Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his spirit"

** "By his power God raised the lord from the dead,and he will raise us also" 1Cor6:14.
*Both 1Cor6:14 and Rom8:11 are complementary, nothing more to say.

Your 2 to 5 are more of an admixture of falsehood with snaky twists .

Guys have started again