TAO11:


I am not sure what answer you're referring to as I haven't answered the question he asked me recently ---- At this point, I think you're already drowning in confusion.

The only 500 years gap I see is between you on one hand and sanity on another hand.

João de Barros, Duarte Pacheco Percira, Manuel de Figueirdo, Dierick Ruiters, and Alonso de Sandoval all published in the early1500s and the 1600s about the Ogane who was an overlord to your kings.

All the following scholars, examining those early European writings, conlude unanimously that the Ogane is none other that the Ooni of Ife:

Stoll (1902), Roth (1903), Marquart (1913), Talbot (1926), Schurhammer (1928), P. Marti (1960), Mauny (1961), R. Bradbury (1964), I. Akinjogbin (1967), R. Law (1973), F. Willett (1973), A. Obayemi (1976), R. Horton (1979), R. Thompson, H. Drewal, S. Blier, S. Akintoye, et al.

But somehow for you, they all must be lying.

Name me one indigenous Yoruba tradition/account which says that Oduduwa is from Mecca or Egypt.

Your dumbness is clearly self-inflicted.

You haven't been able to answer the simple question because you are still putting together a lengthy fabrication as answer. That's what you normally do.

It's a well established fact that until recently when it became shameful for some Yoruba, all early Yoruba history traces the origins of various Yoruba tribes to the middle east.. Egypt, Iran, Mecca and even Ethiopia. Ijebu even claimed Jerusalem was Jebu-Salem and that queen of sheba was buried in Ijebu Ode.

Even RamesseslV alluded to the Yoruba middle east origin claim in his question.

You can argue with yourself that Yoruba didn't claim to be from Mecca, Egypt and the middle east.

You guys are still here on various threads arguing with yourselves about your origin.

samuk:


You haven't been able to answer the simple question because you are still putting together a lengthy fabrication as answer. That's what you normally do.

It's a well established fact that until recently when it became shameful for some Yoruba, all early Yoruba history traces the origins of various Yoruba tribes to the middle east.. Egypt, Iran, Mecca and even Ethiopia. Ijebu even claimed Jerusalem was Jebu-Salem and that queen of sheba was buried in Ijebu Ode.

Even RamesseslV alluded to the Eastern Yoruba origin in his question.

You can argue with yourself that Yoruba didn't claim to be from Mecca, Egypt and the middle east.

You guys are still here on various threads arguing with yourselves about your origin.

Me:
Name me one indigenous Yoruba tradition/account which says that Oduduwa is from Mecca or Egypt, et al.

Him:
It's a well established fact that until recently when it became shameful for some Yoruba, all early Yoruba history traces the origins of various Yoruba tribes to the middle east.. Egypt, Iran, Mecca and even Ethiopia. Ijebu even claimed Jerusalem was Jebu-Salem and that queen of sheba was buried in Ijebu Ode..

Me:
There seem to be no doubt that there is truly some 500 years gap between this boy and sanity.

Okay, I will repeat the request again, perhaps something 'touched' as usual the first time:

Name me one indigenous Yoruba tradition/account which says that Oduduwa is from Mecca or Egypt, et al.

And Finally, what has Reno Omokri's "Jebu-Salam" got to do with the Ijebu's account of themselves?? See desperation!

Anyways, I'm waiting for your second attempt.

samuk right now ---> see 1st attacment

OgboAto:


LOL the emboldened parts show the inadequacies exuded by the laymen who speak on matters of History. Why not face the discipline you had degrees in and leave History to Historians, eh?

Eye witness accounts are pitfalls laden, they're not ultimate and history does not regard it as such. The Historian is not just a story teller as you've made it seem, he's trained to employ and exhaust all sources when writing & to, from his background, detect gaps in accounts. Don't insult the craft some people have given their entire lives to. Do not shxt on the craft many in universities across the world labour daily to master. Rather, accept your own inadequacies in History stemming from your choice to study other disciplines. What you should do is focus on your craft, whatever discipline it was you went to school to study and contribute to or critique it.

Please are you an historian?

samuk:


A simple questions was asked about evidence to support the claim that Ife Bronzes were made in Ife and not brought by the people you claimed came from Egypt or Macca to colonised the people and land.

You have failed to produce any credible evidence to support the claims that the Bronzes dug up in Ife were made there by Ife people, you are asking me to provide evidence that Benin written history is 500 years older than Ife history that started in 1920.

Benin tell real history whilst you guys copy and paste stories that were written in 20th century.

If Benin tell you that they produce 20ft iron poles that houses oil lamps to light up the Palace and the square around the Palace 400 years ago, a precursor to modern Street lights and Benin being amongst the first few cities in world with semblance of Street lights, we back it up with an independent eyewitness written accounts that was written in that period, not some 1960 or 1980 fabrications.

The problem with Ife history is that everything about it is in myths. even between the period of 15th century onward when this part of Africa was almost open to the outside world and documents were written about european encounters with the native africans they met nothing came out of ife, ife was still unknown during this period but yet they claim it was overlord to the greatest kingdom at that time.

Ife claim to have brought the art of bronze making to benin but yet there's no evidence of bronze work ever been done there, even today bronze are not made in Ife. Ife is the only great (acclaimed) kingdom whose history is only narrated by archeological digs and hypotesis.

If Ife was actually a great kingdom, that greatness vanished long before the rise of Benin kingdom and it never influenced Benin in any way.

OgboAto:


You are not very smart. It is common knowledge that no one came from Mecca. The analysis and basis for all of those nonsense has been analyzed in journal articles, if only you'll read. It has been established no one migrated from Mecca/Sudan/Egypt. In addition, the production sites and tools of Ife arts have been uncovered and detailed in studies. Why are you getting involved in issues beyond your academic level? See the first two attached images.

Secondly, you're only deluding yourself with the street lamp fables that many of you vomit into each other's mouths. Bini was a place of filth and disgust to the Europeans. It was a run down place of slavery & endless ritual murders where decapitated human bodies and bones littered the streets in hundreds. You should be thankful for the punitive expedition, else your ancestors would have probably been murdered as votive to your deities. I've attached just two pages describing Bini's barbarity and dilapidated town but there's more if you want the truth about your town.

You are funny, and probably not smart.
you had earlier described some whitemen as racist because they claimed the works of Africans were made by ancient europeans but now accept the theory of a white man who seek to degrade an African civilization and reject the eye witness accounts of other white men who praised benin and described it as a civilized and well organized beautiful city.

Well there are multiple accounts written about Benin that says Benin was an organized and well planned city, and many Europeans lived in Benin and never wrote about what u just mentioned above.. U can out of jealousy quickly accept the racist accounts that suits ur purpose.

RamessesIV:


* Thanks

# I would love to seek your opinion since you have a vast knowledge and lots of resources on yoruba culture and i can trust you'll provide answer backed by evidence and not bigotry

(1) what do you think of the claims that the ife arts are not indigenous to ife,i read somewhere that there is little proof that it was produced in ife rather was brought by Arabs or lost knowledge from egypt linking the semetic/hamitic theory of yoruba civilization,

(2) a yoruba-claimed historian on twitter said that the art works were "too sophisticated" to produced by yorubas judging by the level of architecture,metallurgy(whatever that means) hence it must have been gotten from connection probably trade or contact with foreigners hence "Arabs" or Egypt

(3) or,some others claim it was the Benin since Benin still have the culture and knowledge on how theirs were produced and ife do not

(4) Am sorry to derail from the thread,but seeing that horse statue I thought i should ask,since you are one of the few here who tries to back up claims with evidence,and I would like the input of others also if they have necessary information. @macof

(And unlike also social medium nairaland has no "Dms',so thread would have to do).

* Sure, you are most welcome!

# Disclaimer: I do not have vast knowledge and resources oo.

(1). Regarding such claim as to the effect that the Ife artworks were not produced by the Ife people but rather brought from elsewhere:

(i) The first realization one should have about such claims is that even their amateurish proponents admit the existence of what they call "little proof" for the Ife artworks being indigenous; while they themselves, on the other hand, bring "zero proof" to substantiate their claim of outside origin.

In light of this contrast of their so-called "little" (for Ife) vs. "zero" (for foreign land), it becomes clear, therefore, that their view hinges on prejudice, dogma, faith, and belief than it may be thought to be rooted in reason.

(ii) Having realized that, what evidence then are there to have made art historians unanimously conclude today that the Ife artworks are indigenous?

(a) The evidence which, to me at least, is the most profound of all is the fact that a number of these artworks were discovered in situ in their manufacturing context.

In the context of the first archaeological excavation quest that led to the "discovery" of Ife artworks, Frank Willett writes as follows about some of the finds by Leo Frobenius:

"He soon obtained guides from the Oni to take him round Modakeke, which had been evacuated only the year before, but was already an over-grown ruin. He was conducted to a grove with monoliths and some unfinished figures; ...".

Reference:
Frank Willett, "Ife and Its Archaeology", The Journal of African History, Vol. 1, No. 2 (1960), p.236.

(b) Another fact which bolsters the argument for local production of the artworks is the textual evidence for the source of the raw materials (copper) used for the local production.

The copper source was found to be the Mali Empire. Evidence of the export of raw copper during the reign of Mali's famous monarch, Mansa Musa (1312 -1337) from Mali down south, is found in the early 1300s writings of the Arab trader Ibn Amir Adjib. Musa is said to have informed Ibn Amir Adjib as follows:

"There is nothing in all my empire which is such a large source of taxes as the import of this unworked copper. It comes from this mine and from no other. We send it to the land of the black pagans where we sell mithkal of it for for 2/3 of gold".

Reference:
D.T. Niane, Africa's Understanding of the Slave Trade: Oral Accounts, 1997, p.60., cited in S.P. Blier, Art and Risk in Ancient Yoruba: Ife History, Power, and Identity, c.1300, 2015, p.281.

Interestingly, written account exists showing that Ife particularly was in contact with the Mali Empire that early.

The Arabic writings of Ibn Battuta who visited the Mali Empire in the 1300s makes mention of a certain "great black 'pagan' power" (Sutton, 1981:138.) whose name he Arabicized as Yufi, and which he notes was in contact with the Mali Empire.

At this point, it is important that I mention that "Ife has been known by various names [even] in the wider southern Nigerian area over the course of its long history. In the Edo capital of Benin City, for example, Ife is referred to as Uhe. In the Itsekiri Yoruba area, this city is identified as Ufe." (S.P. Blier, 2015:5.).

In fact, one of the Landers, who in the mid-1800s alluded to this city, Anglicized its name in writting as Iffie. He writes:

"I met and purchased a very curious and singular kind of stone in the market. The natives informed us that it was dug from the earth, in a country called Iffie, which is stated to be "four moons" from Katunga, where, according to their tradition, their first parents were created, and from whence all Africa has been peopled."

Reference:
R. and J. Lander, Journal of an Expedition to explore the Course and Termination of the Niger (London, 1832), vol. I, p.180.

In the light of the above background on the variant articulations and transcriptions of the name "Ife", it is important that I sum it all up more specifically with a scholarly identification of Ibn Battuta's "Yufi".

In his "Ibn Battuta's Yufi -- Bronze and Gold in Mid-Iron Age Africa", J.E.G. Sutton summarized his conclusion, from evaluating the source materials and the available evidence, as follows:

"Yufi: Summary
Yufi, mentioned in the fourteenth century by ibn Battuta in both south-eastern and western Africa, represented two important kingdoms which he imagined were one and the same, owing to his contracted vision of the geography of black Africa. The south-eastern face of Yufi was Zimbabwe with its gold (connecting with Kilwa and the Indian Ocean trade). There has been more discussion of Yufi's western face which was in contact with Mali and located by ibn battuta towards the lower Niger. It is normally taken to mean Nufe (Nupe) on the supposition of a mislection of Arabic n as y. But a more faithful reading would be Ufe ("alternatively pronounced Ife"). This is acceptable geographically and fits nicely the political and economic realities of that time.

Reference:
J.E.G. Sutton, "Ibn Battuta's Yufi -- Bronze and Gold in Mid-Iron Age Africa", Transafrican Journal of History, Vol. 10, No 1/2 (1981), p.160.


(c) Some more corroborating evidence showing that the production of these Ife artworks was local rather than foreign lies in the sculptures themselves --- the human figures particularly.

Their production was clearly aimed at naturalism, considering the obvious concentration on the plastic qualities of the face.

In other words, they were meant to be an exact portrait of the individual they represented. In relation to this fact, Frank Willets notes that "The heads were serene, naturalistic portrait" (F. Willett, 1959:135)

In the light of these foregoing fact, even a cursory examination of such human figures from Ife shows clearly that not only are the human representations negroid (considering their facial phenotypes and facial striation), they also have no parallel in any other known art tradition in the world (considering their generally distinctive royal regalia).

(d) Although Frank Willet notes that these figures from Ife are "unlike any known African art" and "would stand comparison with anything which Ancient Egypt, Classical Greece and Rome, or Renaissance Europe had to offer"; he was quick to clarify that yet "no parallel to them [i.e. to these Ife figures] could be found in any of these [other] art traditions." (F. Willett, 1960:239).

This foregoing fact may, at face value, first give the impression that the Ife-style sculptural art tradition is an isolated art tradition in the history of the region to which Ife belongs (i.e. Yorubaland), new finds in the course of the twentieth century in other parts of Yorubaland, however, dissipates such isolationist tendency. S.A. Akintoye writes in relation to these latter finds as follows:

"Some survivals of the brass/bronze sculptural tradition have been discovered in modern Ile-Ife; and evidence has come to light that the art tradition existed in many other places in Yorubaland ("for instance in Owo, and in Obo-Aiyegunle in northern Ekiti, in Ijebu-Ode, etc")."

Reference:
S.A. Akintoye, A History of the Yoruba People, Amalion Publishing, 2010, p.79.

To summarize point (d):
* The Ife figures are like nothing in any other African art tradition

* The Ife figure would stand comparison with the best from Ancient Egypt, Classical Greece and Rome, or Renaissance Europe.

*Yet, the Ife figure have no parallels in the art tradition of Ancient Egypt, Classical Greece and Rome, or Renaissance Europe.

*However, the Ife figures have parallels in the art tradition of the region to which Ife itself belongs --- i.e. they have parallels in other parts of Yorubaland.

The obvious un-mistaking conclusion from the foregoing summary is that the Ife artworks are a part of the unique exclusive indigenous production of the Yoruba people.

(e) The first known instance of such claims (that the Ife artworks were not produced by the Yoruba people) was by the German ethnographer and archaeologist, Leo Frobenius who travelled to Ife in the year 1910.

Frobenius visited numerous sites, and conducted what became the first archaeological excavation to unearth Ife artworks. Frobenius uncovered an impressive collection of stone and terra-cotta artworks.

He was also shown "The Olokun Head" (not to be confused with "The Head of Ife") which he had heard about outside 'Nigeria' during the course of his travels through West Africa two years earlier.

The aesthetic appeal and technical sophistication of these artworks struck him and immediately caused him to realize that these works stand far above and beyond any known artwork from black Africa.

He was then forced to conclude, interestingly, that these works could not have been produced by "the negro". He had no other known reason for this conclusion than the bolded above.

However, unlike those amateurs whom you noted to have read from, he was adept enough as an expert to realize from his observations that those artworks were indeed produced locally. So, he deviced a different ingenious explanation with which to express his racist bigotry. He writes:

"Eloquent of a symmetry, a vitality, a delicacy of form directly reminiscent of Ancient Greece, and a proof that, once upon a time, a race far superior in strain to the negro, had settled here."

Reference:
L. Frobenius, The Voice of Africa, 1913, pp.88-89.

In fact, Leo Frobenius concluded on the basis of these artworks alone that Ife was indeed the remains of the lost legendary Greek civilization of Atlantis.

But how true is his claim that some autochthonous white had first lived in Ife before the "negro", and were responsible for creating these Ife artworks whose dates range from c.1000 CE onward??

Archaeological finds in different parts of Yorubaland have yielded valuable information about the early inhabitants of these regions. Henry J. Drewal writes in relation to some of these finds as follows:

"The prehistoric era at Ife is still unknown, but data from a Late Stone Age site at Iwo Eleru about 47miles from Ife contributes some collateral data. There human remains identified as Negroid, dating to 8000 B.C., were found.*"

Reference:
H.J. Drewal, "Ife: Origins of Art and Civilization," in Yoruba: Nine Centuries of African Art and Thought (NY: Center for African Art in Association with H.N. Abrams, 1989), p.45.

These collateral data shows therefore that the presence of negroids in Yorubaland is not some recent phenomenon (obviously).

This archaeological data thus obliterates Frobenius' racist suggestion that the white were the original Ife settlers before the blacks themselves. A ridiculous suggestion actually, but that's how powerful stereotypes can get.

During the second of such finds from Ife in the year 1938, Professor William Bascom (who also did some ethnographical field-work in Ife) writes in the same racist tone as Frobenius.

However, being an expert too, he also makes no mistake of attributing the origin of Ife artworks to some foreign land. He writes for The Illustrated London News as follows:

"How, in a comparatively obscure corner of this vast and backward continent could an art and a technique have flowered that take their stand beside the best ever evolved by the elaborate civilizations of Europe and Asia?"

Reference:
W.R. Bascom, The Illustrated London News (8 April 1939), p.592.

In the light of all the examined evidence, it becomes definitively clear that not only are the ideas of an outside origin (or white locals) unfounded and ridiculous; there is, in fact, strong contrary evidence affirming that the casting tradition of Ife is an indigenous Yoruba tradition.

cc: RamessesIV

(2) I am not sure what kind of historian in this age and time would hold such view as to the effect that the origin of the Ife artworks was rooted in some foreign land.

However, one can be sure --- given the above expositions --- that if such person truly made such statement (in our present time), then they can't possibly be a historian in any way, shape, or form.

Can you direct me to the relevant statements of this so-called historian? Thanks!

In fact, some of the alleged basis for their conclusion (i.e. architecture and iron working) are some of the wrongest examples to choose from.

For example, the Ita Ogun Esa "sun dial" menhir in Ife (see: S.P. Blier, Cosmic References in Ancient Ife, 2012, p.4.), and the Oranmiyan obelisk in Ife, among others, are some unique examples (if not the only examples) of such ancient surviving stone architectural feats in the whole of black Africa (with the exception of Ethiopia and Sudan).

Moreover, the Yorubas are one of the earliest groups in West Africa to have acquired the knowledge of iron mining and smelting. Archaeological evidence of early iron smelting has been found in different parts of Yorubaland.

For example, remains of iron production furnaces, kilns, and heaps of iron slag have been found in Ife-Ijumu and dated c.160 C.E. Another site has been found in an abandoned town near Moniya in Ibadan. Other sites include the ones in Isundurin, in Ilorin, Ife, and Idofin.

See: Bassey W. Andah: "Iron Age Beginnings in West Africa: Reflections and Suggestions," West African Journal of Archaeology, 9, 1979, 135-50.


(3) I do not see how a beginner in art history (let alone an art historian) could conceivably even hypothesize Benin Kingdom as the origin of the Ife artworks.

First of all, the Ife artworks as has been demonstrated already are an indigenous Yoruba tradition and are thus not possibly Bini in origin.

Secondly, and contrary to this claim of Benin origin; the Binis local tradition insists that Ife is the source of its art and technique of casting metal artifacts.

Incidentally, this Benin tradition too, therefore, confirms the earlier argument that the casting tradition of Ife was an indigenous one.

Moreover, J. A. Danford (1949) records this Benin tradition. He writes:

"According to tradition, Igueigha was the first brass smith to be sent from Ife. He was in consequence deified and is worshipped by the brass-smiths to this day."

Reference:
J.A. Danford, "Art in Nigeria", African Affairs, Vol. 48, No. 190, Oxford University Press on behalf of The Royal African Society, (Jan., 1949), pp.44.

Thirdly and most importantly, scientific dating techniques situate the beginning of the art tradition of Ife to some centuries before Benin's beginnings.

For example, Robin Horton cites a contrast of the range of these dates in his "Ancient Ife: A Reassessment" as follows:

"Along with the new iconographic findings, we have also acquired an impressive series of dates. Application of carbon-14 and thermoluminescence techniques to excavated materials has enabled us to assign approximate absolute dates to several major Ife settlement levels and to the terra-cotta and brass works associated with them. Dates for terra-cotta pieces range from c. A.D. 1000 onward; whilst dates for brass pieces range from c. A.D. 1275 to c. A.D. 1440. Application of these techniques to materials from Owo and Benin has also enabled us to assign dates to some of the "classical" terra-cotta and brass-work associated with these cities. Significantly, the Owo and Benin date-series begin slightly later than their Ife counterparts. One particularly interesting Benin date is for a brass piece previously assessed by Fagg and Dark as early on the ground of its Ife-type naturalism. Thermoluminescence tests give it a date of c. A.D. 1420 -- just what it should be on the premises adopted by these authors.*"

Reference:
Robin Horton, "Ancient Ife: A Reassessment", Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol. 9, No. 4 (JUNE 1979), pp.86-87.

In the light of these dating results, it seems, after all, that the Benin art traditions which claims Ife as the source of its technique has not lied.

cc: cc: RamessesIV

davidnazee:


You are funny, and probably not smart.
you had earlier described some whitemen as racist because they claimed the works of Africans were made by ancient europeans but now accept the theory of a white man who seek to degrade an African civilization and reject the eye witness accounts of other white men who praised benin and described it as a civilized and well organized beautiful city.

Well there are multiple accounts written about Benin that says Benin was an organized and well planned city, and many Europeans lived in Benin and never wrote about what u just mentioned above.. U can out of jealousy quickly accept the racist accounts that suits ur purpose.

1. It seems the inability to sensibly approach & react to issues is a quality naturally missing in the Bini. You couldn't see the post about European in the context of hamitic hypothesis and you also couldn't separate it from accounts localized to Africa? To help your slow mind, me writing to appropriate your fine clothes as mine is different from me writing to generally describe your wardrobe.

2. I'll give you this offer, provide screenshots of European accounts describing the broad streets and lamps of Bini and I'll provide you with accounts detailing the shabbiness, dilapidated, corrosive, disorganized and run-down plan of Bini. And the bonus, for each account you post, I'll reply with two accounts.

I am not jealous, it is in the past & what is there to be jealous of a 2 by 2 kingdom confined to the mercy of the Ijaw people in Edo state?
I just want to put an end to the mouth to mouth regurgitation of just one single account among you Bini people. Please take the offer, it might just be an opportunity for you to impress on the general public that Bini was a beauty to behold not a land of endless murder with rotten bodies & human bones lying across the streets.

Thanks i truly appreciate your answer,and how well organized and researched it is,I will take my time to go over it again since am doing a little research of mine

it was on twitter oh on a "Yoruba history" page if I have time I go back to the tweet and provide screenshots so you can see how common this belief is i even forgot one said Iran,one brought egypt arts and was comparing the similarities,i didn't want to sound bias(cause I am very skeptical) that's why I asked you a Yoruba to give your insights,thing is many people claim historian or seem to know history these days,anyways I appreciate the time and effort you put into replying my questions.

TAO11:
(2) I am not sure what kind of historian in this age and time would hold such view as to the effect that the origin of the Ife artworks was rooted in some foreign land.

However, one can be sure --- given the above expositions --- that if such person truly made such statement (in our present time), then they can't possibly be a historian in any way, shape, or form.

Can you direct me to the relevant statements of this so-called historian? Thanks!

In fact, some of the alleged basis for their conclusion (i.e. architecture and iron working) are some of the wrongest examples to choose from.

For example, the Ita Ogun Esa "sun dial" menhir in Ife (see: S.P. Blier, Cosmic References in Ancient Ife, 2012, p.4.), and the Oranmiyan obelisk in Ife, among others, are some unique examples (if not the only examples) of such ancient surviving stone architectural feats in the whole of black Africa (with the exception of Ethiopia and Sudan).

Moreover, the Yorubas are one of the earliest groups in West Africa to have acquired the knowledge of iron mining and smelting. Archaeological evidence of early iron smelting has been found in different parts of Yorubaland.

For example, remains of iron production furnaces, kilns, and heaps of iron slag have been found in Ife-Ijumu and dated c.160 C.E. Another site has been found in an abandoned town near Moniya in Ibadan. Other sites include the ones in Isundurin, in Ilorin, Ife, and Idofin.

See: Bassey W. Andah: "Iron Age Beginnings in West Africa: Reflections and Suggestions," West African Journal of Archaeology, 9, 1979, 135-50.


(3) I do not see how a beginner in art history (let alone an art historian) could conceivably hypothesize Benin Kingdom as the origin of the Ife artworks.

First of all, the Ife artworks as has been demonstrated already are an indigenous Yoruba tradition and are thus not possibly Bini in origin.

Secondly, and contrary to this claim of Benin origin; the Binis local tradition insists that Ife is the source of its art and technique of casting metal artifacts.

Incidentally, this Benin tradition too confirms the earlier argument that the casting tradition of Ife was an indigenous one.

Moreover, J. A. Danford (1949) records this Benin tradition. He writes:

"According to tradition, Igueigha was the first brass smith to be sent from Ife. He was in consequence deified and is worshipped by the brass-smiths to this day."

Reference:
J.A. Danford, "Art in Nigeria", African Affairs, Vol. 48, No. 190, Oxford University Press on behalf of The Royal African Society, (Jan., 1949), pp.44.

Thirdly and most importantly, scientific dating techniques situate the beginning of the art tradition of Ife to some centuries before Benin's beginnings.

For example, Robin Horton cites a contrast of the range of these dates in his "Ancient Ife: A Reassessment" as follows:

"Along with the new iconographic findings, we have also acquired an impressive series of dates. Application of carbon-14 and thermoluminescence techniques to excavated materials has enabled us to assign approximate absolute dates to several major Ife settlement levels and to the terra-cotta and brass works associated with them. Dates for terra-cotta pieces range from c. A.D. 1000 onward; whilst dates for brass pieces range from c. A.D. 1275 to c. A.D. 1440. Application of these techniques to materials from Owo and Benin has also enabled us to assign dates to some of the "classical" terra-cotta and brass-work associated with these cities. Significantly, the Owo and Benin date-series begin slightly later than their Ife counterparts. One particularly interesting Benin date is for a brass piece previously assessed by Fagg and Dark as early on the ground of its Ife-type naturalism. Thermoluminescence tests give it a date of c. A.D. 1420 -- just what it should be on the premises adopted by these authors.*"

Reference:
Robin Horton, "Ancient Ife: A Reassessment", Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol. 9, No. 4 (JUNE 1979), pp.86-87.

In the light of these dating results, it seems, after all, that the Benin art traditions which claims Ife as the source of its technique has not lied.

cc: cc: RamessesIV

RamessesIV:
Thanks i truly appreciate your answer,and how well organized and researched it is,I will take my time to go over it again since am doing a little research of mine

it was on twitter oh on a "Yoruba history" page if I have time I go back to the tweet and provide screenshots so you can see how common this belief is i even forgot one said Iran,one brought egypt arts and was comparing the similarities,i didn't want to sound bias(cause I am very skeptical) that's why I asked you a Yoruba to give your insights,thing is many people claim historian or seem to know history these days,anyways I appreciate the time and effort you put into replying my questions.

Sure, you're welcome!

Regarding the 'Twitter historian', my request to you to direct me to their statement was only rhetorical. I don't really mean to bother you.

I clearly wouldn't take such statement seriously for obvious reasons:

(i) There is overwhelming evidence (some of which I have presented) trashing such statement as false.

(ii) There is zero scholarly support for such statement, and I'm quite sure that the said individual didn't even bother pretending to be citing academia.


(iii) The nature of such statement is itself sufficient evidence against the credibility of such self-acclaimed Twitter historian.

Cheers!

RamessesIV:
Thanks i truly appreciate your answer,and how well organized and researched it is,I will take my time to go over it again since am doing a little research of mine

it was on twitter oh on a "Yoruba history" page if I have time I go back to the tweet and provide screenshots so you can see how common this belief is i even forgot one said Iran,one brought egypt arts and was comparing the similarities,i didn't want to sound bias(cause I am very skeptical) that's why I asked you a Yoruba to give your insights,thing is many people claim historian or seem to know history these days,anyways I appreciate the time and effort you put into replying my questions.

1. By the time Ife Bronzes were discovered, there were nothing written before then to say Ife ever engaged in Bronze casting. In fact it was a complete shock to those that discovered them.

2. Academic machinery was put in place to study them and claim them for Ife.

3. There is no evidence to support the claims that those artworks were made in Ife, that's why they were first ascribed to being brought to Ife from Egypt, Mecca or Iran. All these would have been unnecessary if Ife had even had an Oral history that said they once produced Bronzes. There were no oral history that was discounted by white racist or the Yoruba themselves that ascribed the origin of the Bronzes to the Middle east.

4. All the references that were supplied by TAO11 were all written after the Bronzes have be discovered to feel in the gabs in history. A bit like working backwards from the answer to the question. I suggest that all the so called scholarly works supplied by TAO11 are after thoughts by those Yoruba baised writers.

5. Some of Ife Bronze are said to have been dated to as far back as 13th century, if these artworks were made in Ife, how come there was nothing recorded in Yoruba history for almost 600 years before they were discovered by accident.

When you examine the references provided as scholarly work to answer a question, always be sceptical. TAO11 evidence were all written in the 1900s to describe artworks of 500 to 600 years old.

Whilst the best of science can tell you the technique that was used to produce those artworks, they can't be certain if they were made in Ife and if indeed they were made by Ife people.

If Ife had such artistic knowledge, I don't see why it wouldn't have existed till today, there was no earthquake and major pestilence recorded in history of Ife that wiped out the artists. Even war can't wipe out such knowledge and skill from society otherwise Benin would have seized from producing artworks after the British expedition of 1897 that completely burnt down the city.

If Benin could maintain her various artistic skills till today, I don't see why Ife artistic skills and knowledge should have gone into extinction considering the relationship between Benin and Ife according to Yoruba history.

There are no evidence to support those artworks being made by Ife people in Ife.

samuk:


[s]1. By the time Ife Bronzes were discovered, there were nothing written before then to say Ife ever engaged in Bronze casting. In fact it was a complete shock to those that discovered them.

2. Academic machinery was put in place to study them and claim them for Ife.

3. There is no evidence to support the claims that those artworks were made in Ife, that's why they were first ascribed to being brought to Ife from Egypt, Mecca or Iran. All these would have been unnecessary if Ife had even had an Oral history that said they once produced Bronzes. There were no oral history that was discounted by white racist or the Yoruba themselves that ascribed the origin of the Bronzes to the Middle east.

4. All the references that were supplied by TAO11 were all written after the Bronzes have be discovered to feel in the gabs in history. A bit like working backwards from the answer to the question. I suggest that all the so called scholarly works supplied by TAO11 are after thoughts by those Yoruba baised writers.

5. Some of Ife Bronze are said to have been dated to as far back as 13th century, if these artworks were made in Ife, how come there was nothing recorded in Yoruba history for almost 600 years before they were discovered by accident.

When you examine the references provided as scholarly work to answer a question, always be sceptical. TAO11 evidence were all written in the 1900s to describe artworks of 500 to 600 years old.

Whilst the best of science can tell you the technique that was used to produce those artworks, they can't be certain if they were made in Ife and if indeed they were made by Ife people.

If Ife had such artistic knowledge, I don't see why it wouldn't have existed till today, there was no earthquake and major pestilence recorded in history of Ife that wiped out the artists. Even war can't wipe out such knowledge and skill from society otherwise Benin would have seized from producing artworks after the British expedition of 1897 that completely burnt down the city.

If Benin could maintain her various artistic skills till today, I don't see why Ife artistic skills and knowledge should have gone into extinction considering the relationship between Benin and Ife according to Yoruba history.

There are no evidence to support those artworks being made by Ife people in Ife.[/s]

This one is still nursing his bigoted wound here!

You will be alright las las!

Sorry ehn!

@RamessesIV, I forgot to mention an interesting fact to you in my earlier reply:

A number of the Ife artworks were always in the custody of the palace (from generation to generation) since the time of their production.

They were not all "discovered" in an archaeological excavation context. Some of such works include:

(i) The Obalufon Head (see 1st attachment).

(ii) The Lajuwa Head (see 2nd attachment).

(iii) The Olokun Head which used to be buried at the Ebolokun grove, and then unearthed only to be reburied (and so forth) in connection to certain periodic rituals. (see 3rd attachment).

(iv) The finely carved quartz ritual stool given as a gift by the Ooni in 1895 to Sir Gilbert Carter.

It is one of the first Ife work to be seen outside of Africa as it entered the British Museum collections in 1896. (see 4th attachment)

Read up on these for verification.

Cheers!

Thanks for your contribution,tao11 gave good points and i am also personally doing my own research

Am still wondering why the skill of such artwork went away but this isn't new
In fact the whole racial debate on egypt is based on the fact that modern egyptians lack cultural links to ancient Egyptians so I think you also make a good point too.

samuk:


1. By the time Ife Bronzes were discovered, there were nothing written before then to say Ife ever engaged in Bronze casting. In fact it was a complete shock to those that discovered them.

2. Academic machinery was put in place to study them and claim them for Ife.

3. There is no evidence to support the claims that those artworks were made in Ife, that's why they were first ascribed to being brought to Ife from Egypt, Mecca or Iran. All these would have been unnecessary if Ife had even had an Oral history that said they once produced Bronzes. There were no oral history that was discounted by white racist or the Yoruba themselves that ascribed the origin of the Bronzes to the Middle east.

4. All the references that were supplied by TAO11 were all written after the Bronzes have be discovered to feel in the gabs in history. A bit like working backwards from the answer to the question. I suggest that all the so called scholarly works supplied by TAO11 are after thoughts by those Yoruba baised writers.

5. Some of Ife Bronze are said to have been dated to as far back as 13th century, if these artworks were made in Ife, how come there was nothing recorded in Yoruba history for almost 600 years before they were discovered by accident.

When you examine the references provided as scholarly work to answer a question, always be sceptical. TAO11 evidence were all written in the 1900s to describe artworks of 500 to 600 years old.

Whilst the best of science can tell you the technique that was used to produce those artworks, they can't be certain if they were made in Ife and if indeed they were made by Ife people.

If Ife had such artistic knowledge, I don't see why it wouldn't have existed till today, there was no earthquake and major pestilence recorded in history of Ife that wiped out the artists. Even war can't wipe out such knowledge and skill from society otherwise Benin would have seized from producing artworks after the British expedition of 1897 that completely burnt down the city.

If Benin could maintain her various artistic skills till today, I don't see why Ife artistic skills and knowledge should have gone into extinction considering the relationship between Benin and Ife according to Yoruba history.

There are no evidence to support those artworks being made by Ife people in Ife.

TAO11:


This one is nursing his bigoted wound here!

Sorry ehn!

It would have been shocking if your mouth was not opened from ear to ear.

What I wrote was not for your consumption but for those genuinely after real history and not fabrications.

You have presented your answer to RamessesIV and others silent readers who would have found the question interesting and was waiting for your reply.

I have produced a counter narrative to what you submitted, it's now left for those that ask the question and seek the answer to examine both points of views. That is the essence of debate. Not insults, when you feel your points and arguments have been defeated with a superior argument.

You will hardly find where I attack you personally from my reply because there was no need for the personal attacks as I believe my point of view was very sound in reasoning.

It's only those that have nothing concrete to say that quickly retort to insults to make up for their deficiencies in logical reasoning. Insults are far quicker from those that have very little thinking ability. Those with sound logical reasoning abilities will first examine what is being said before thinking about insults, in most cases insults hardly comes to mind. This is the difference between intellectuals and paper weights copy and paste people.

RamessesIV:
Thanks for your contribution,tao11 gave good points and i am also personally doing my own research

Am still wondering why the skill of such artwork went away but this isn't new
In fact the whole racial debate on egypt is based on the fact that modern egyptians lack cultural links to ancient Egyptians so I think you also make a good point too.

My point is that even if there was no written records of those Bronzes being made in Ife by Ife people because they didn't have written history, what happened to the Oral history, every Africa society that lacks written history have oral history.

If there was an oral history of Ife producing artworks in the past, it wouldn't have come as a surprise when they were discovered.

The fact that the Yorubas themselves were dumbfounded by the discovery and even went on to originally ascribed middle eastern origin to them call into question whether they were originally made in Ife by Ife people.

samuk:

[s]It would have been shocking if your mouth was not opened from ear to ear.

What I wrote was not for your consumption but for those genuinely after real history and not fabrications.

You have presented your answer to RamessesIV and others silent readers who would have found the question interesting and was waiting for your reply.

I have produced a counter narrative to what you submitted, it's now left for those that ask the question and seek the answer to examine both points of views. That is the essence of debate. Not insults, when you feel your points and arguments have been defeated with a superior argument.

You will hardly find where I attack you personally from my reply because there was no need for the personal attacks as I believe my point of view was very sound in reasoning.

It's only those that have nothing concrete to say that quickly retort to insults to make up for their deficiencies in logical reasoning. Insults are far quicker from those that have very little thinking ability. Those with sound logical reasoning abilities will first examine what is being said before thinking about insults, in most cases insults hardly comes to mind. This is the difference between intellectuals and paper weights copy and paste people.[/s]

Mr illiterate, go and lick your wound in peace and not involve me.

Go to your usual corner and cry yourself to stupor as always!

@RamessesIV

I feel obliged to correct a false impression which you may have been unfortunately led to beleive.

First of all, whenever the illiterate samuk addresses any statement (which are almost always false) to you, please type the following to him in response and notice what happens:

Can you provide me an evidence to substantiate this statement?

I can't remember him citing any reference for any statement he has ever made --- not even a newspaper reference.

Having said that, he has made a number of unfortunately false statement such as the following:

(1) He falsely stated that the bronze casting tradition is absent in the oral traditions of the Ife people.

(2) He falsely noted that the discovery of artwork in Ife came as a shocking surprise to the locals.

(3) He falsely noted that the Ife people themselves ascribe the production of the artworks to some Middle Easterns.

I can understand that you took his words for it because you wouldn't have any reason to doubt or distrust someone as a default.

However, what you did not know about this individual is that he is a sad bigoted mythomaniac --- especially when it concerns Ife and Yoruba as a whole.

Going forward, if you must type anything in response to any statement he makes, then such response should at least contain the following question:

"Can you provide me an evidence to substantiate this statement?"

Having said that, his statements which he tries hard to persuade you to believe (in the hope that evidence is not demanded) are not only hopelessly unfounded, but are also blatantly false.

Contrary to what he prays that you (and everyone else) should beleive, the Ife people have always being aware of the history of their sculptural art tradition (from time immemorial) long before the first archaeological excavation for artworks in Ife.

Recall that I noted in my first set of replies to you that Leo Frobenius had already heard about the Olokun artwork of the Ife people (during the course of his travels through West Africa) even before he visited Nigeria for the first time in 1910 for the first Ife art excavation.

To be emphatic, the Ife casting tradition is well known in the art tradition of the ancient Ife people. They see a number of these bronzes and terracotas everyday in their daily rituals.

In fact, they have a name for the Ife king who initiated and founded the sculptural art tradition in Ife.

His name is unanimously known in the traditions as Obalufon Alaiyemore --- popularly known in academia as Obalufon II.

In sum, a number of the Ife artworks were always in the custody of the palace (from generation to generation) since the time of their production.

They were not all "discovered" in the context of archaeological excavation. As such, the discovery did not conceivable come as any shock whatsoever to the Ife people.

Some of such works that were not discovered in the context of archaeological excavation include the following among others:

(i) The Obalufon Head (see 1st attachment).

(ii) The Lajuwa Head (see 2nd attachment).

(iii) The Olokun Head which used to be buried at the Ebolokun grove, and then unearthed only to be again reburied (and so forth) in connection to certain periodic rituals. (see 3rd attachment).

(iv) The finely carved quartz ritual stool given as a gift by the Ooni in 1895 to Sir Gilbert Carter. 

This quartz stool is one of the first Ife work to be seen outside of Africa as it entered the British Museum collections in 1896. (see 4th attachment)

Cheers!

1. If Ife had a thriving artistic culture, more than a handful of of artworks would have been discovered or dug up in Ife.

2. There would have been numerous artworks discovered and not only a handful.

3. The fact that only a handful of artworks were discovered in Ife to date also lead credence to the claim that they were brought into Ife and not made there.

4. In Benin for example, thousands of various artworks from, Bronzes, wood carvings, carvings on elephant tusks, Iron works etc were found in the Palace and they were not buried and forgotten underground.

5. The world is still looking for more than half the artworks that were stolen by Nazi Germany during the second world war. They were buried and hidden in various sites across Europe by German soldiers. When they are discovered in the future, it will be wrong to say they were made in their current hidden locations.

6. If Ife had a flourishing artistic tradition, it would have likely extended to other parts of Yoruba land that claimed Ife Origin and a remnant of it would have survived till date in whatever form.

7. Not only were there no oral tradition of Ife artworks being made in Ife before they were discovered by accident, the Yorubas themselves, originally claimed that they came from Egypt.

8. The so called later day scholarly works are afterthoughts.

9. Benin is the only place with concrete artistic tradition, skills and knowledge, in Benin, various artistic skills and knowledge flourished and still being practiced.

10. The Ife artworks could have been made in Benin and taken down to Ife. No any other Yoruba tribes can account for the presence of the artworks that were dug up in Ife.

samuk:
1. If Ife had a thriving artistic culture, more than a handful of of artworks would have been discovered or dug up in Ife.

2. There would have been numerous artworks discovered and not only a handful.

3. The fact that only a handful of artworks were discovered in Ife to date also lead credence to the claim that they were brought into Ife and not made there.

4. In Benin for example, thousands of various artworks from, Bronzes, wood carvings, carvings on elephant tusks, Iron works etc were found in the Palace and they were not buried and forgotten underground.

5. The world is still looking for more than half the artworks that were stolen by Nazi Germany during the second world war. They were buried and hidden in various sites across Europe by German soldiers. When they are discovered in the future, it will be wrong to say they were made in their current hidden locations.

6. If Ife had a flourishing artistic tradition, it would have likely extended to other parts of Yoruba land that claimed Ife Origin and a remnant of it would have survived till date in whatever form.

7. Not only were there no oral tradition of Ife artworks being made in Ife before they were discovered by accident, the Yorubas themselves, originally claimed that they came from Egypt.

8. The so called later day scholarly works are afterthoughts.

9. Benin is the only place with concrete artistic tradition, skills and knowledge, in Benin, various artistic skills and knowledge flourished and still being practiced.

10. The Ife artworks could have been made in Benin and taken down to Ife. No any other Yoruba tribes can account for the presence of the artworks that were dug up in Ife.

Not a single one of your 10 fallacies above was left unaddressed in my replies to RemessesIV.

I am not surprised that all your points are at variance with reality.

It is understandable since you do not read. You're a stark illiterate.

I busted all your lies, so it is understandable that you should be mad at me and pained by my answers!

TAO11:


Not a single one of your 10 fallacies is left unaddressed in my replies to RemessesIV.

I am not surprised that all your points are at variance with reality.

It is understandable, you don't read. I can also understand why your pained by my answers!

The total artworks that were discovered in Ife is less than what was being produced in Benin daily.

If Ife had a flourishing artistic knowledge and culture over a period of time, more artworks would have been found. This is one of the reasons people believe that they were not made in Ife by Ife people. They were taken to Ife and not made there.

samuk:


[s]The total artworks that were discovered in Ife is less than what was being produced in Benin daily.

If Ife had a flourishing artistic knowledge and culture over a period of time, more artworks would have been found. This is one of the reasons people believe that they were not made in Ife by Ife people. They were taken to Ife and not made there.[/s]

Why are you troubled??

You appear to be unconvinced of your own bigotry, hence your desperate validation seeking repititions.

In case you're thinking otherwise, your points rants are actually not in touch with reality.

I have thoroughly debunked all your repetitions long ago, and you know it --- hence your latest face-saving damge control.

It is unfortunate that you're an illiterate, otherwise you will have realized how far ago all your rants have been trashed.

It is my fervent prayer, however, that you do not resort to considering the image below.

TAO11:


Why are you troubled??

You appear to be unconvinced of your own bigotry and you're desperately looking for validation.

Your rants are not in touch with reality, and I have thoroughly debunked all your repetitions already.

It is only unfortunate that you're an illiterate otherwise you will have realized how far ago all your rants have been trashed.

It is my fervent prayer that you do not resort to considering the image below.

If you are convinced that you have debunked all the points I have raised about the origin of artworks that were found in Ife, then rest and stop replying. The reason you are so worked up and still replying is because you know your argument doesn't hold water and our silent readers can see through your lies.

How can people with a flourishing artistic culture, skills and knowledge only produce just a handful of artworks in their entire artistic history.

Those artworks were taken to Ife and they were not made there.

Those looking for the origin of the few artworks that were dug up in Ife should look towards Benin.

samuk:


[s]If you are convinced that you have debunked all the points I have raised about the artworks that were found in Ife, then rest and stop replying. The reason who are still replying is because you know your argument doesn't hold water and our silent readers can see through your lies.

How can people with a flourishing artistic culture, skills and knowledge only produce just a handful of artworks in their entire artistic history.

Those artworks were taken to Ife and they were not made there.

Those looking for the origin of the artworks that were dug up in Ife should look towards Benin.[/s]

I decide when to stop flogging you, so stop begging me to stop.

I know you're rattled by the fact that I exposed your illiteracy, as well as your hopelesness as regards substantiating your lies with evidence.

Just like every other statements you've made before, the above too are unsubstantiable.

And the reason is simple, lies can not be substantiated.

Your rants therefore remain as trashed and debunked in my original answers.

Sweet!

TAO11:


I decide when to stop flogging you, so stop begging me to stop.

I know you're rattled by the fact that I exposed your illiteracy, as well as your hopelesness as regards substantiating your lies with evidence.

Just like every other statements you've made before, the above too are unsubstantiable.

And the reason is simple, lies can not be substantiated.

Your rants therefore remain as trashed and debunked in my original answers.

Sweet!

When I write to debunk your trash, I don't have you in mind but the readers.

Besides your insults and photos are becoming stalled, boring and repetitive, you should make some improvements, I am sure you can copy new ones from the internet. It shouldn't be only fabricated history you should be copying and pasting.

samuk:

[s]When I write to debunk your trash, I don't have you in mind but the readers.

Besides your insults and photos are becoming stalled, boring and repetitive, you should make some improvements, I am sure you can copy new ones from the internet. It shouldn't be only fabricated history you should be copying and pasting.[/s]

Except that you're not known (by anyone, at anytime) as someone who produces evidence to substantiate his lies.

And the reason is simple, basic, and straighdorward. Lies can't be substantiated.

As such, all your bold lies and twistings remain as already debunked and trashed in my answers --- starting with the first of them in reply to Ramesses' question to me.

Again, it is my fervent prayer that you do not consider the noose ---> see 1st attachment.

samuk right now ----> see 2nd attachment.

Thanks for this,I didn't take his word per say,just unlike the benins i have never heard of ife bronze culture in modern times,I was just wondering why it didn't survive till modern times(or if it did and I am unaware of then is my bad)

Was it due to loss of power of ife

Famine,disease,war

Colonization

Christianity and rise of islam

Take example we know for sure egyptian culture when to decline not due to invasion or population change as widely claimed,but first spread of christianity before it was finally killed out by arab conquest.

TAO11:
@RamessesIV

I feel obliged to correct a false impression which you may have been unfortunately led to beleive.

First of all, whenever the illiterate samuk addresses any statement (which are almost always false) to you, please type the following to him in response and notice what happens:

Can you provide me an evidence to substantiate this statement?

I can't remember him citing any reference for any statement he has ever made --- not even a newspaper reference.

Having said that, he has made a number of unfortunately false statement such as the following:

(1) He falsely stated that the bronze casting tradition is absent in the oral traditions of the Ife people.

(2) He falsely noted that the discovery of artwork in Ife came as a shocking surprise to the locals.

(3) He falsely noted that the Ife people themselves ascribe the production of the artworks to some Middle Easterns.

I can understand that you took his words for it because you wouldn't have any reason to doubt or distrust someone as a default.

However, what you did not know about this individual is that he is a sad bigoted mythomaniac --- especially when it concerns Ife and Yoruba as a whole.

Going forward, if you must type anything in response to any statement he makes, then such response should at least contain the following question:

"Can you provide me an evidence to substantiate this statement?"

Having said that, his statements which he tries hard to persuade you to believe (in the hope that evidence is not demanded) are not only hopelessly unfounded, but are also blatantly false.

Contrary to what he prays that you (and everyone else) should beleive, the Ife people have always being aware of the history of their sculptural art tradition (from time immemorial) long before the first archaeological excavation for artworks in Ife.

Recall that I noted in my first set of replies to you that Leo Frobenius had already heard about the Olokun artwork of the Ife people (during the course of his travels through West Africa) even before he visited Nigeria for the first time in 1910 for the first Ife art excavation.

To be emphatic, the Ife casting tradition is well known in the art tradition of the ancient Ife people. They see a number of these bronzes and terracotas everyday in their daily rituals.

In fact, they have a name for the Ife king who initiated and founded the sculptural art tradition in Ife.

His name is unanimously known in the traditions as Obalufon Alaiyemore --- popularly known in academia as Obalufon II.

In sum, a number of the Ife artworks were always in the custody of the palace (from generation to generation) since the time of their production.

They were not all "discovered" in the context of archaeological excavation. As such, the discovery did not conceivable come as any shock whatsoever to the Ife people.

Some of such works that were not discovered in the context of archaeological excavation include the following among others:

(i) The Obalufon Head (see 1st attachment).

(ii) The Lajuwa Head (see 2nd attachment).

(iii) The Olokun Head which used to be buried at the Ebolokun grove, and then unearthed only to be again reburied (and so forth) in connection to certain periodic rituals. (see 3rd attachment).

(iv) The finely carved quartz ritual stool given as a gift by the Ooni in 1895 to Sir Gilbert Carter. 

This quartz stool is one of the first Ife work to be seen outside of Africa as it entered the British Museum collections in 1896. (see 4th attachment)

Cheers!

TAO11:


Not a single one of your 10 fallacies above was left unaddressed in my replies to RemessesIV.

I am not surprised that all your points are at variance with reality.

It is understandable since you do not read. You're a stark illiterate.

I busted all your lies, so it is understandable that you should be mad at me and pained by my answers!

How many bronze casting sites or pits were discovered in Ife? was any ancient bronze casting sites found in Ife?

RamessesIV:


Thanks for this,I didn't take his word per say,just unlike the benins i have never heard of ife bronze culture in modern times,I was just wondering why it didn't survive till modern times(or if it did and I am unaware of then is my bad)

Was it due to loss of power of ife

Famine,disease,war

Colonization

Christianity and rise of islam

Take example we know for sure egyptian culture when to decline not due to invasion or population change as widely claimed,but first spread of christianity before it was finally killed out by arab conquest.

Oh, now I get!

Regarding why we see a discontinued production in modern Ife, in contrast to some continued production in modern Benin Kingdom:

The answers to this lies in an interplay of two important factors, namely: timeline and power.

Earlier on, I alluded to the scientific dating techniques which situates the beginning of the casting tradition of Ife to some centuries before Benin's beginnings. To quote the precise words again, R. Horton writes:

"Along with the new iconographic findings, we have also acquired an impressive series of dates. Application of carbon-14 and thermoluminescence techniques to excavated materials has enabled us to assign approximate absolute dates to several major Ife settlement levels and to the terra-cotta and brass works associated with them. Dates for terra-cotta pieces range from c. A.D. 1000 onward; whilst dates for brass pieces range from c. A.D. 1275 to c. A.D. 1440. Application of these techniques to materials from Owo and Benin has also enabled us to assign dates to some of the "classical" terra-cotta and brass-work associated with these cities. Significantly, the Owo and Benin date-series begin slightly later than their Ife counterparts. One particularly interesting Benin date is for a brass piece previously assessed by Fagg and Dark as early on the ground of its Ife-type naturalism. Thermoluminescence tests give it a date of c. A.D. 1420 -- just what it should be on the premises adopted by these authors.*"

Reference:
Robin Horton, "Ancient Ife: A Reassessment", Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol. 9, No. 4 (JUNE 1979), pp.86-87.

It becomes clear from the foregoing that Benin's metal casting tradition begins towards the end-date obtainable for the Ife works in the early 1400s.

This relatively newcomer-casting tradition of Benin then continues till the arrival of the Portugues in c.1480 and beyond.

It is import to notice that, interestingly, the beginnings of the metal casting tradition in Benin almost perfectly coincides with the gradual rise of Benin Kingdom as a power during the reign of Ewuare1.

This intersection of the casting tradition with the rise of Benin Kingdom as a power serves to bolster the tradition until the fall of the kingdom in 1897.

Although, some volume of production may have survived in modern times even after the fall in 1897, these relatively tiny modern production volume cannot conceivable be comparable to the obvious massive production volume when the Kingdom was a power.

The decline must have been gradual, and there is no reason to think that the gradual decline has ceased in modern times.

In all, the beginning of the tradition in Benin, as well as the rise and fall the Benin Kingdom, is closer to our modern times.

In contrast to Benin, Ife emerged as a power in the West Africa region from c.900AD up to c.14550AD when it fell. In relation to this R. Horton writes:

"Phase 2. (900 A.D.-1450 A.D.)
Ife emerged as a power in the region after the main wave of Yoruba expansion and cultural differentiation."

Reference:
Ibid., p.140.

Just as in the newcomer-Benin's case, Ife's art tradition spanning (1000AD to 1440AD) coincides almost perfectly with its rise as a power. It becomes obvious then that its fall plays a roll in the gradual decline of its art tradition, obviously.

In fact, the factors responsible for its fall, are such peculiar factors as to necessitate the termination of its rich casting tradition.

Interestingly and 'luckily' for Benin Kingdom, such are not the same factors that led to Benin's fall.

Some of these factors are discussed under R. Horton's "phase 3 summary" as follows:

"Phase 3. (1450 A.D.-1650 A.D.)
Two outlying Ife provincial centres, Benin and Oyo, developed new trade routes linking seaboard, forest and savanna. These routes by-passed Ife to the east and the west. Early on, they provided alternative avenues for the traditional goods of the old central route. Later, they provided avenues for inland transportation of the important new supplies of cheap copper and iron brought to the coast by European merchants, thus giving Benin and Oyo rather than Ife first access to these vital commodities. In addition, Oyo, apparently borrowing the idea from its northern neighbours, developed a powerful cavalry force which enabled it to dominate the area between the forest and the Niger. These commercial and military developments tipped the balance of wealth and power away from Ife and toward Benin and Oyo. Both of the latter became independent of Ife. And as they started to overshadow the former metropolis, they drew much of its population away from it. Inspired by their example and encouraged by the dwindling power of Ife, other newly prosperous provincial centres followed them into independence ; and they too became magnets for the city's population. Ife was left small, poor, militarily weak and culturally impoverished."

Reference:
Ibid., p.141.

In all, the beginning of the art tradition in Ife as well as the rise and fall of Ife is much more father away from our modern times than Benin's.

davidnazee:



How many bronze casting sites or pits were discovered in Ife? was any ancient bronze casting sites found in Ife?

LOL several too numerous to count.
However, to continue to give the thread a feel of claims based in research [as Lady TAO has strictly been doing], I provided screenshots of the sites where some of the old arts were made but your brother Samluk or whatever ignored it all together.

Thanks for your reply,as usual well written and organized,I just wish some people will learn to reply me without being rude like well educated human beings

TAO11:


Oh, now I get!

Regarding why we see a discontinued production in modern Ife, in contrast to some continue production in modern Benin Kingdom:

The answers to this lies in an interplay of two important factors, namely: timeline and power.


Earlier on, I alluded to the scientific dating techniques which situates the beginning of the casting tradition of Ife to some centuries before Benin's beginnings. To quote the precise words again, R. Horton writes:

"Along with the new iconographic findings, we have also acquired an impressive series of dates. Application of carbon-14 and thermoluminescence techniques to excavated materials has enabled us to assign approximate absolute dates to several major Ife settlement levels and to the terra-cotta and brass works associated with them. Dates for terra-cotta pieces range from c. A.D. 1000 onward; whilst dates for brass pieces range from c. A.D. 1275 to c. A.D. 1440. Application of these techniques to materials from Owo and Benin has also enabled us to assign dates to some of the "classical" terra-cotta and brass-work associated with these cities. Significantly, the Owo and Benin date-series begin slightly later than their Ife counterparts. One particularly interesting Benin date is for a brass piece previously assessed by Fagg and Dark as early on the ground of its Ife-type naturalism. Thermoluminescence tests give it a date of c. A.D. 1420 -- just what it should be on the premises adopted by these authors.*"

Reference:
Robin Horton, "Ancient Ife: A Reassessment", Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol. 9, No. 4 (JUNE 1979), pp.86-87.

It becomes clear from the foregoing that Benin metal casting tradition begins towards the end-date obtainable for the Ife works in the early 1400s. This relatively newcomer casting tradition of Benin then continues till the arrival of the Portugues in c.1480 and beyond.

It is import to notice that, interestingly, the beginnings of the metal casting tradition Benin almost coincides perfectly with the gradual rise of Benin Kingdom as a power during the reign of Ewuare1.

This intersection of the casting tradition with the rise of Benin Kingdom as a power serves to bolster the tradition till the fall of the kingdom in 1897. Although, some volume of production may have survive in modern times even after the fall in 1897, these volume of production can not possibly be comparable to the volume of production when the kingdom was at its height.

In all, the beginning of the tradition in Benin as well as the rise and fall the Benin Kingdom is closer to our modern times.


In contrast to Benin, Ife emerged as a power in the West Africa region from c.900AD up to c.14550AD when it fell. In relation to this R. Horton writes:

"Phase 2. (900 A.D.-1450 A.D.)
Ife emerged as a power in the region after the main wave of Yoruba expansion and cultural differentiation."

Reference:
Ibid., p.140.

Just like in the latter Benin case, Ife's art tradition spanning (1000AD to 1440AD) coincides almost perfectly with its rise as a power. It becomes obvious then that its fall plays a roll in the gradual decline of its art tradition obviously.

In fact, the factors responsible for its fall, are such peculiar factors as to necessitate the termination of its rich casting tradition. Interestingly and luckily for Benin Kingdom, such are not the same factors that led to Benin's fall.

Some of these factors are discussed under R. Horton's "phase 3 summary" as follows:

"Phase 3. (1450 A.D.-1650 A.D.)
Two outlying Ife provincial centres, Benin and Oyo, developed new trade routes linking seaboard, forest and savanna. These routes by-passed Ife to the east and the west. Early on, they provided alternative avenues for the traditional goods of the old central route. Later, they provided avenues for inland transportation of the important new supplies of cheap copper and iron brought to the coast by European merchants, thus giving Benin and Oyo rather than Ife first access to these vital commodities. In addition, Oyo, apparently borrowing the idea from its northern neighbours, developed a powerful cavalry force which enabled it to dominate the area between the forest and the Niger. These commercial and military developments tipped the balance of wealth and power away from Ife and toward Benin and Oyo. Both of the latter became independent of Ife. And as they started to overshadow the former metropolis, they drew much of its population away from it. Inspired by their example and encouraged by the dwindling power of Ife, other newly prosperous provincial centres followed them into independence ; and they too became magnets for the city's population. Ife was left small, poor, militarily weak and culturally impoverished."

Reference:
Ibid., p.141.

In all, the beginning of the tradition in Ife as well as the rise and fall Ife is father away from our modern times than Benin's.

OgboAto:


LOL several too numerous to count.
However, to continue to give the thread a feel of claims based in research [as Lady TAO has strictly been doing], I provided screenshots of the sites where some of the old arts were made but your brother Samluk or whatever ignored it all together.

One day we will read here on Nairaland that the autopsy report on some Bini corpse shows bigotry to be the cause of their death.

Just watch out!