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Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor - Culture (2) - Nairaland

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The Name Lagos, Was Called Ekonunuame By The Benins / Why Onitsha Is Not An Igboland, It Belongs To Benins / Benins Are The Owners Of Ogboni Confraternity and olokun worship (2) (3) (4)

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Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 12:09pm On Aug 06, 2019
geosegun:
The above summarized it all. Another knock out from @TAO11. What a well seasoned scholarly person you are...Respect.

I wonder why some people will be comfortable to lie and distort history because of their inferiority complex. What's the big deal if one city rules over the other...? For the records, Britain was enslaved by Roman's, the now mighty US was ruled by small highland Britain for almost 400 years and brought about her civilisation and heaven did not fall. Even Britain, the US and some rest of old powers are confidence to include these in there national histories. They ve accepted who they are and have moved on and hence, great people now.

But nay, our people will distort histories and think they are doing themselves a tribal service? Not knowing that it was a great disservice to generations yet unborn, as no one will ever take you/them serious in any way. This act of historical distortions is a national disgrace. This has to stop.

Thank you bro.

Please assist humanity by sharing those posts widely. Our people should know the truth.

cheesy

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Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Nobody: 6:10pm On Aug 06, 2019
TAO11:


Smiles...

Your amateurish and interestingly lame defense (or "arguments" as you may like to call it) reminds me of the act of throwing anything and everything (in the hope that something sticks) without minding the obvious mutual contradiction flooding the statements been thrown around.


Your argument, in a nutshell, is as follows:

Premise 1: Ile-Ife was founded by a prince of Benin kingdom (or Igodomigodo) whose name is Ekaladerhan.

Premise 2: One of the sons of this Ekaladerhan sometime later went to become the king back at home --- that is; back in Benin kingdom.

Conclusion 3: Hence, Benin kingdom pays homage to Ile-Ife, but not the other way round.


The obvious inherent blatant contradiction in the foregoing "argument" of yours is a clear testament to the fact that reality and fiction shouldn't mix.

Any desperate attempt to mix fact and fiction as a singularity is like a patchwork whose seems would always be obvious.


Not only does the seams of your patchwork still get palpably perceptible, but there is also actually no scholarly support for the Apocryphal and pseudohistorical narrative that a certain Benin prince Ekaladerhan became king at Ile-Ife.


I have cited you a reference to Benin's earliest and classical historical account in the works of Chief Jacob Uwadiae Egharevba (who is the leading and most respected indigenous Edo historian dead or alive anywhere in the world) where it is stated that the prince Ekalderhan having been exiled to Ughoton lived and died there.


I have cited you the work of Dmitri M. Bondarenko, a world-renowned expert of Benin History and a leading academic (if not the world's present leading academic alive) in the field of Benin Studies.

I have adduced his statement to the effect that such account of a Benin prince Ekaladerhan becoming king at Ife is Apocryohal, unauthentic, and pseudohistorical.

And he continued to show that the motive behind this forgery in the 1970s (contrary to the classical Bini account that had held sway since 1933) is the desperation by a handful of Binis to ground the idea of an exceptional antiquity for the Binis thereby laying a claim to Benin's exclusive part in the sociopolitical life of independent Nigeria.


So far, it is very unfortunate and shocking that you've not been able to adduce even a single shred of scholarly statement or evidence to support your wishful claim that your prince Ekaladerhan became king at Ile-Ife.

All you've presented so far is your own words --- in other words, your personal wish. Yet you apparently strongly insist that your wish must be trusted over and above the submission of the leading experts of Benin History. Isn't that interesting? cheesy


Having demonstrated from scholarly evidence that the idea of a certain prince Ekaladerhan becoming king at Ife is simply a figment of the wild and ambitious imaginations of the fabricators, we are, therefore, not left with many factual options but one.


And the fact thus remains that Oranmiyan, a full-fledged Ife prince, sojourned on an expedition to a relatively backward Igodomigodo land; scrapped its indigenous "Ogiso" dynasty; introduced a foreign monarchy viz. "Oba"; and then made this newer monarchy into an Ife Yoruba blood-line dynasty till date.

Provide me one --- just one --- scholarly evidence from anywhere in the world which disputes the foregoing facts.

And if you can not find any contrary scholarly evidence (you obviously can not), then you should have to explain how Oranmiyan's establishment of an Ife-Yoruba dynasty in a foreign land is not one and the same thing as establishing an Ife colony there.

**In light of the fact of the already dismissed fictional and self-contradictory idea that a Benin prince founded Ife; your admittance of the fact that the kings of Benin kingdom PAID HOMAGE to Ile-Ife therefore remains a testament to what it is --- that is, a testament to the fact of Ife's imperial influence and domination over a foreign country, viz. Igodomigodo.


Furthermore, it amazes me that you also (like in the above case) admitted the fact that Ife exercised a spiritual Overlordship over Benin kingdom; but yet you seem to be trivializing that fact. cheesy

Please inform me, what other kinds of influence and overlordship can be greater than a spiritual and religious allegiance to a theocratic monarchy such as that of ancient Ife?

Did you know before now that the Ooni of Ife was literally regarded, in Benin kingdom, as God Almighty in human flesh? cheesy

Yes, the Ooni of Ife was actually referred to, in Benin kingdom, by the epithet "Oghene". Yes, "Oghene".

Refer to: Omo N'Oba N'Edo Erediauwa's "The Benin-Ife Connection (2004)". A source which I believe you would trust. cheesy


It is for this reason that Omo N'Oba Erediauwa could have made a statement along the following lines:

The "land of Edo ... was founded by the first Oba of Benin who was the youngest son of the Supreme God."

[Oba of Benin, quoted in Eweka 1992:2 and cited in Roger Blench & Matthew Spriggs, Archaeology and Language I: Theoretical and Methodological Orientations, 2004, p. 314.]

Isn't Oranmiyan truly thought, in Benin traditions, to be the youngest son of the Ooni of Ife? cheesy


Also, refer, for more details, to the attached screenshot (which from my experience, Nairaland does not allow me to post as a comment) on the overlordship and suzerainty of the Ooni of Ife over Benin kingdom.


Regarding your latest point on the language evidence, you seem to be gradually seeing the light. cheesy

You noted that "language is not the only factor for dominance".

And this is precisely my point which I have consistently and repeatedly defended.

Yes, language is just one evidence of the suzerainty of Ile-Ife over Benin kingdom, and as it is obvious I have since added more evidence. cheesy


Furthermore, regarding your remark that "Lagos was colonized by Oba Orosghene ...", this remark actually contains certain inaccuracies and assumption that need to be pointed out.

First, on the inaccuracies: The region in question is not Lagos per se but actually a section of Lagos known today as Lagos Island. Also, the king of Benin kingdom in question is not Oba Oroghene as you presumed, but Oba Orhogbua --- even according to the erudite Benin historian J. U. Egharevba.

Second, on the assumption: Your remark that Lagos Island was "colonized" by Benin kingdom actually assumes that this Benin account is actually identical to, and uniform in all respects with, the account held by the autochthonous people of the region, i.e. the Aworis. Your assumption here is terribly mistaken and actually false.


The Bini and the Awori accounts actually differ in a number of important respects:

While the Bini account lay claim to an outright conquest, the Awori account describes many indecisive conflicts and skirmishes between the indigenous Awori population on one hand; and the non-Awori resident population (which comprises largely of the Bini traders, but also includes others like the Ijebu, the Ilaje, the Ikale, the Owo, the Egba, the Egbado, the Aja, and the Ijaw traders) on the other hand.

The Awori account notes that these conflicts and skirmishes endured and escalated so badly as to almost completely cripple trading activities. The Benin resident population was therefore so affected that it could not make its due remittances back home to the Oba of Benin.

So, this shortage of remittances from its Benin subjects residing in faraway Lagos Island attracted the attention of the government of Benin kingdom. The intervention thus necessitated the need to find a lasting solution to the incessant conflicts between the indigenous population and the non-Awori resident population of different trading groups.

It was, however, eventually resolved that an ultimate settlement would involve permitting the non-Awori resident population to have some representation and hence participation in the government of the island which had been administered theretofore solely by the Olofin and his enclave of Awori chiefs.

This arrangement, therefore, gave a platform to Asheru --- a Benin man who had been the leader and voice for the non-Awori resident population of traders --- to participate in the governance of the island alongside the indigenous people.

But unfortunately, the new arrangement proved to be ineffective in putting a final stop to the conflicts, and Asheru was soon afterwards killed in one of the clashes/skirmishes that ensued in the course of time.

A certain Awori prince named Aṣipa who is described in same Awori account as an Isheri chief of Ife royal descent (and who obviously shared some of the sentiments of the resident alien population) graciously led the party that conveyed Asheru's body to Benin.

Aṣipa --- with the support of his loyalists which largely consist of the resident alien population --- eventually became the new dynastic king of the island to whom the line of Lagos Island kings till date is traced as their progenitor.


Refer to: S. Adebanji Akintoye, A History of the Yoruba People, Amalion Publishing, 2010, pp. 221-222:

An outstanding, audacious, and refreshing scholarly comprehensive research work of about thirty-two years, by a Professor of African and Yoruba History who has been in the frontline of African and Yoruba history studies for over four decades in different Nigerian and U.S. prestigious and foremost universities.

This authoritative work enjoyed the inputs and reviews of an enclave of world-renowned historians of African and Yoruba History such as: J. F. Ade Ajayi (Emeritus Professor of History, University of Ibadan, Nigeria); Elisee Soumonni (Retired Professor of African History and Archaeology, National University of Benin, Benin Republic); Robin C. C. Law (Professor of African History, Stirling University, Scotland); Toyin Falola (the Frances Higginbotham Nalle Centennial Professor of History, University of Texas, U.S.); Funso Afolayan (Associate Professor of History and African Studies, University of New Hampshire, Durham); and Adebayo Oyebade (Professor of History, Tennessee State University, Nashville).


The foregoing account is the standard Awori account of the relationship between "Oko" (i.e. the earlier Yoruba name of the region which became phono-semantically matched into the Edo word "Èkó" which in turn proves, with time, to be more dominant through Benin's popularity and influence among the alien resident population) and Benin kingdom.


This Awori account is obviously and clearly in sharp contrast to the Benin account.

If I am, however, faced with the option of adopting the most logical and consistent of these two accounts (as I am now faced with), then I am inclined to upholding the Awori account, not merely for being a Yoruba myself, but for the fact that only the Awori account explains the historical absence of any adoption of Edo language alongside Yoruba language on the island (or in any part of Lagos for that matter) --- a phenomenon which would have been present had Benin kingdom truly "colonized" Lagos as the Benin account claims.

Be humble, cheers! cool

U obviously seem to know more than me on this subjects, so at this point I need not prove my points any further.
Cause it seems u are looking for an excuse to display ur knowledge of history.

But take a while to think,.
What does the superiority of the Ooni over the Oba add to u,
Why must we as Nigerians allow, division and tribalism limit our country.

Btw u are one knowledgeable Lady ,cheers I submit to ur proofs,

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Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 7:13pm On Aug 06, 2019
Chidorx60:


U obviously seem to know more than me on this subjects, so at this point I need not prove my points any further.
Cause it seems u are looking for an excuse to display ur knowledge of history.

But take a while to think,.
What does the superiority of the Ooni over the Oba add to u,
Why must we as Nigerians allow, division and tribalism limit our country.

Btw u are one knowledgeable Lady , cheers I submit to ur proofs,

Firstly, I like to commend you by admitting that there can not be a greater level of sincerity, humility, and humanity than is seen above in the fact of your setting aside false preconceived notions for evidence, for proof, and for ratiocination.

I salute your uncommon courage and honesty to have let gone of conjectures and pseudo-historical narratives which many whom I have engaged before always hold on firmly to even in the light of facts to the contrary.

They often erroneously conflate such blind dogmatism with tribal loyalty.


Having said that, contrary to what you seem to think, my motive for presenting these facts is not merely to show my self or what not.

No! My presentation of facts, if you notice, is in response and in reaction to widespread misinformation and miseducation among folks on this platform.

While the suzerainty of ancient Ile-Ife over ancient Benin is actually in itself not my business; I personally consider it a disservice and an act of grave irresponsibility to keep mute when misinformation is being peddled right under my nose, even when I am convinced of being in possession of the facts which would correct such misinformation.

And I don't have to be a Yoruba to correct these misinformation on Yoruba-Benin relationship (particularly the Ife and the Lagos cases). You too should join in going forward, I pray thee.

Yes, we must unite as Nigerians, but I believe strongly that such unity is not mutually exclusive to standing for what is true and correcting misinformation.

In fact, such unity would only be superficial and short-lived if we all fold our arms and allow fake news become the order of the day.

I humbly ask that you also join in on this noble quest of setting the record straight among our Benin folks.

Regards!

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Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Astark: 5:43am On Aug 07, 2019
I don't even read the gibberish that this clown is right. She's trying to uplift ile Ife and ooni image by saying Benin were under them.

Let it be known that Benin were never under anybody, Yoruba were nobody's before their "oduduwa " came from Benin.

We don't see ile ice or the ooni in high esteem, they are one of the many kingdoms that the British gave power and fame.
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 6:16am On Aug 07, 2019
Astark:
I don't even read the gibberish that this clown is right. She's trying to uplift ile Ife and ooni image by saying Benin were under them.

Let it be known that Benin were never under anybody, Yoruba were nobody's before their "oduduwa " came from Benin.

We don't see ile ice or the ooni in high esteem, they are one of the many kingdoms that the British gave power and fame.

Lol!

You already confirmed the reason why you know nothing.

You admitted unequivocally that:

You "don't even read".

So, what can I do? cheesy


However, I advice that you talk to someone from Benin who reads.


Chidorx60 is from Benin kingdom, he reads, he now knows, and he's now become liberated.

Talk to him, you may also become liberated. Who knows? cheesy

Cheers!

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Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Astark: 6:23am On Aug 07, 2019
TAO11:


Lol!

You already confirmed the reason why you know nothing.

You admitted unequivocally that:

You "don't even read".

So, what can I do? cheesy


However, I advice that you talk to someone from Benin who reads.


Chidorx60 is from Benin kingdom, he reads, he now knows, and he's now liberated.

Talk to him.

Cheers!
lmao, I won't be surprise if you're the same person replying yourself and liking your comment
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 6:27am On Aug 07, 2019
Astark:
lmao, I won't be surprise if you're the same person replying yourself and liking your comment


Perhaps! cheesy cheesy

However, what is more important is that you cultivate a reading habit.

Readers are leaders!

Cheers.

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Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Astark: 6:29am On Aug 07, 2019
TAO11:



Perhaps cheesy cheesy

However, what is more important is that you cultivate a reading habit.

Readers are leaders!

Cheers.
I love to read but not the gibberish you wrote. You try so hard in downplaying Benin kingdom and the oba of Benin while giving ile ife and ooni high status.

No Edo or edoid person will ever take you serious
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 6:33am On Aug 07, 2019
Astark:
I love to read but not the gibberish you wrote. You try so hard in downplaying Benin kingdom and the oba of Benin while giving ile ife and ooni high status.

No Edo or edoid person will ever take you serious

Do you want to debate the scholarly submissions?

If yes, then channel this same energy into engaging the references and arguments I have submitted.

But if no (or if you're incapacitated), then take a deep loud breath, accept what just hit you in good faith, and then move on with your strong and thick ignorance.

Cheers!


And BTW, I am shocked as to how you know what the contents of other people's arguments (not their conclusions --- their arguments) are without having to read it.

I'm scared of you. cheesy

Like some people would say: "I fear who no fear you oo" cheesy grin

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Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 6:40am On Aug 07, 2019
Astark:
I love to read but not the gibberish you wrote. You try so hard in downplaying Benin kingdom and the oba of Benin while giving ile ife and ooni high status.

No Edo or edoid person will ever take you serious

No, I tried so hard to suppress falsehood and misinformation. And I've been very successful all along. cheesy grin


It's a pity that inferiority complex has gripped you very strongly and very badly. embarassed embarassed

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Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by geosegun(m): 2:13pm On Aug 07, 2019
TAO11:


No, I tried so hard to suppress falsehood and misinformation. And I've been very successful all along. cheesy grin


It's a pity that inferiority complex has gripped you very strongly and very badly. embarassed embarassed

Well articulated. I can attest to this %100.

1 Like

Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 2:24pm On Aug 07, 2019
geosegun:


Well articulated. I can attest to this %100.

Thanks bro!

The young man I replied last is still basking in the euphoria of gross and undiluted ignorance.

Will he ever realize at all that he has been lied to in the Bini accounts, let alone realize how greatly he has been lied to and deceived ? cheesy

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Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Toluobaeko11: 11:11pm On Aug 07, 2019
I don't know why it's hard for some people to leave our Oduduwa for us. Our Oduduwa used a chain to descend from heaven, that is our own history. Benin prince was banished to forest, that is your own history.
I don't know why our history of Oduduwa is giving some people headache. The Greeks and Romans are holding tight to their history about Zeus, Hercules. We Christian believed Jesus was born without sexual contact, walk on water, and rose from dead after 3 days, no one can blame us for what we choose to believe. I'm not saying the story of your Prince wandering in the forest is not true, because it's your story and no one is arguing it with you. Don't just try do edit our own history for us. By the way, I am a descendant of great Oduduwa and I'm standing by what my father passed down to me as it was passed down to him by his father, and his father through his grandfather.

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Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 2:49am On Aug 08, 2019
Toluobaeko11:
I don't know why it's hard for some people to leave our Oduduwa for us. Our Oduduwa used a chain to descend from heaven, that is our own history. Benin prince was banished to forest, that is your own history.
I don't know why our history of Oduduwa is giving some people headache. The Greeks and Romans are holding tight to their history about Zeus, Hercules. We Christian believed Jesus was born without sexual contact, walk on water, and rose from dead after 3 days, no one can blame us for what we choose to believe. I'm not saying the story of your Prince wandering in the forest is not true, because it's your story and no one is arguing it with you. Don't just try do edit our own history for us. By the way, I am a descendant of great Oduduwa and I'm standing by what my father passed down to me as it was passed down to him by his father, and his father through his grandfather.

Nice submission bro!

But I have a question:

Do you really think that the man Oduduwa actually came down literally from the sky?
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Toluobaeko11: 6:25am On Aug 08, 2019
TAO11:


Nice submission bro!

But I have a question:

Do you really think that the man Oduduwa actually came down literally from the sky?

Every culture and civilizations on planet earth have what they believed in, even though it may sound foolish to other people, but it doesn't change the fact they believed in it. YES! I believed Oduduwa came from the sky, and I'll pass it to my unborn generation as it was passed down to me.

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Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 7:16am On Aug 08, 2019
Toluobaeko11:

Every culture and civilizations on planet earth have what they believed in, even though it may sound foolish to other people, but it doesn't change the fact they believed in it. YES! I believed Oduduwa came from the sky, and I'll pass it to my unborn generation as it was passed down to me.

Okay, and thanks so much for replying.

Moreover, let me quickly say that, from your reply, two things becomes very obvious as the reasons why you "believe" what you "believe":


(1) It has been passed down to you (and of course to me) through the generations before us.

(2) There are other ancient cultures, religions, and civilizations all over the world who also "believe" in similar fantastic stories even up till this moment.

Let me know if you "believe" what you "believe" for more other reasons.

Having said that, I like to know if you've ever possible entertained the thoughts that:

(1) The simple fact that a story (any story at all --- even believable ones) has been passed down to us over the generations does not in itself make the story a historical truth or reality.

(2) The fact that "others" do something similar does not in itself constitute a proof that my doing something similar means I'm accurate.

Have you considered these contentions before? Or should I say: doesn't the foregoing contentions make sense to you?

Let's discuss!
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by ikyTech(m): 7:27am On Aug 08, 2019
Well said my friend
Toluobaeko11:
I don't know why it's hard for some people to leave our Oduduwa for us. Our Oduduwa used a chain to descend from heaven, that is our own history. Benin prince was banished to forest, that is your own history.
I don't know why our history of Oduduwa is giving some people headache. The Greeks and Romans are holding tight to their history about Zeus, Hercules. We Christian believed Jesus was born without sexual contact, walk on water, and rose from dead after 3 days, no one can blame us for what we choose to believe. I'm not saying the story of your Prince wandering in the forest is not true, because it's your story and no one is arguing it with you. Don't just try do edit our own history for us. By the way, I am a descendant of great Oduduwa and I'm standing by what my father passed down to me as it was passed down to him by his father, and his father through his grandfather.
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Toluobaeko11: 7:48am On Aug 08, 2019
TAO11:


Okay, and thanks so much for replying.

Moreover, let me quickly say that, from your reply, two things becomes very obvious as the reasons why you "believe" what you "believe":


(1) It has been passed down to you (and of course to me) through the generations before us.

(2) There are other ancient cultures, religions, and civilizations all over the world who also "believe" in similar fantastic stories even up till this moment.

Let me know if you "believe" what you "believe" for more other reasons.

Having said that, I like to know if you've ever possible entertained the thoughts that:

(1) The simple fact that a story (any story at all --- even believable ones) has been passed down to us over the generations does not in itself make the story a historical truth or reality.

(2) The fact that "others" do something similar does not in itself constitute a proof that my doing something similar means I'm accurate.

Have you considered these contentions before? Or should I say: doesn't the foregoing contentions make sense to you?

Let's discuss!
Well.....this is not about Yoruba history alone, every civilization has their own mystical history which no one can take away from them, even the Bible history/stories we Christians sticks to is mystical also. All these mystical history of different civilizations may not be completely true(FACT), but people still believe in it even though it's Metaphysical.
All history about every tribe, culture, tradition, civilization, etc, are all mystical in nature, all what we believed about religion, be it Christianity, Islam, or Traditional are all mystical. I'm not saying all these are %100 accurate, but some things cannot be changed no matter how hard we try too.
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 8:21am On Aug 08, 2019
Toluobaeko11:

Well.....this is not about Yoruba history alone, every civilization has their own mystical history which no one can take away from them, even the Bible history/stories we Christians sticks to is mystical also. All these mystical history of different civilizations may not be completely true(FACT), but people still believe in it even though it's Metaphysical
All history about every tribe, culture, tradition, civilization, etc, are all mystical in nature, all what we believed about religion, be it Christianity, Islam, or Traditional are all mystical. I'm not saying all these are %100 accurate, but some things cannot be changed no matter how hard we try too.

Thank you bro!

But I noticed bro that you appear to be waivering between two mutually exclusive thoughts.


You appear one one hand to be willing to concede that the story of the man Oduduwa literally dropping from the sky could not possibly have been "completely true" (or factual).

While you also on the other hand seem to want to (at the same time) hold on to the story as true, just because other people ("even the Bible" ) have some similar fantastic stories and lots of people do not contest these stories.

May be the story is true and may be it is not, but my argument is simply that we need to stop saying that it is TRUE just BECAUSE other cultures, religions, and civilizations also have similar fantastic stories which many people accept as true.

And also to stop saying that it is TRUE just BECAUSE it has been so passed down to us.

No, these two do not in any way constitute evidence upon which to really accept the story (or any story for that matter) as TRUE.

If the story is indeed true, then it should be because available EVIDENCE says so.

But unfortunately or fortunately, available EVIDENCE as examined by scholars of Yoruba History as shown demonstrably that that story, as it is, is actually not the case.

I hope to share some light below, in due course, on why this foregoing contrary conclusion is the case.

Cheers!
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by MetaPhysical: 10:37am On Aug 08, 2019
TAO11:


Thank you bro!

But I noticed bro that you appear to be waivering between two mutually exclusive thoughts.


You appear one one hand to be willing to concede that the story of the man Oduduwa literally dropping from the sky could not possibly have been "completely true" (or factual).

While you also on the other hand seem to want to (at the same time) hold on to the story as true, just because other people ("even the Bible" ) have some similar fantastic stories and lots of people do not contest these stories.

May be the story is true and may be it is not, but my argument is simply that we need to stop saying that it is TRUE just BECAUSE other cultures, religions, and civilizations also have similar fantastic stories which many people accept as true.

And also to stop saying that it is TRUE just BECAUSE it has been so passed down to us.

No, these two do not in any way constitute evidence upon which to really accept the story (or any story for that matter) as TRUE.

If the story is indeed true, then it should be because available EVIDENCE says so.

But unfortunately or fortunately, available EVIDENCE as examined by scholars of Yoruba History as shown demonstrably that that story, as it is, is actually not the case.

I hope to share some light below, in due course, on why this foregoing contrary conclusion is the case.

Cheers!

The story of Oduduwa descending from sky into a premordial orbit and creating elements out of there stands as is passed through oral history and recorded traditions. It possesses same historical value and validity as parallels that are the cultural histories of civilizations around the world. They are all without exception a body of traditional, historical, cultural and phenomenal knowledge, whether in Yoruba, in Egypt, in Mesopotamia, in Babylon, in Assyria, or wherever else they manifest as peoples history.

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Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by lawani: 1:51pm On Aug 08, 2019
Toluobaeko11:

Every culture and civilizations on planet earth have what they believed in, even though it may sound foolish to other people, but it doesn't change the fact they believed in it. YES! I believed Oduduwa came from the sky, and I'll pass it to my unborn generation as it was passed down to me.
all orisas originally landed from space but as an ife chief told me, there are two oduduwas, one came from mecca and the earliest landed from space.
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 7:03pm On Aug 08, 2019
... If the story is indeed true, then it should be because available EVIDENCE says so.

But unfortunately or fortunately, available EVIDENCE as examined by scholars of Yoruba History as shown demonstrably that that story, as it is, is actually not the case.

I hope to share some light below, in due course, on why this foregoing contrary conclusion is the case.

Cheers!

As promised!:

My objective is to "investigate" the veracity of the Yoruba story that the man Oduduwa did indeed literally drop from the sky.

A fair investigation of the veracity of this story would obviously then begin by taking this story (as it is presented in the strongly held body of Yoruba traditions) as the null hypothesis which is to be rejected or not depending on where present available incontrovertible evidence swings it.


This story; that the man Oduduwa literally dropped from the sky to create the earth's crust, starting from Ile-Ife, and to become the progenitor of the Yoruba people and humankind altogether; belongs to a larger body of story with which ancient Yoruba people (just as other ancient people on the planet) have always attempted to ingeniously explain the origins and early beginnings of things.

Having said that, it is very crucial at this point that I should mention that different variants of this story abound as is common with orally literate people. In fact, there is an earlier variant of this story which is crucially different from the variant being considered here as the earliest known historical tradition of the Yoruba people shows.

An early body of Yoruba tradition known as Ìkẹ́du is described, for instance, in the joint work of Toyin Falola (the Frances Higginbotham Nalle Centennial Professor of Yoruba and African History, University of Texas) and Bukola A. Oyeniyi (Professor of Yoruba and African History at Missouri State University) as "an ancient school for the teaching of Ife history".

Refer to: Toyin Falola & Bukola A. Oyeniyi, Africa in Focus: Nigeria, ABC-CLIO, LLC, 2015, p. 27.


This earliest of Ife traditions also touched on the story of creation and of origins. This tradition contains a variant which (like other variants) also claims that God sent down some heavenly beings to create solid land, plant life, etc.

What is conspicuous about the account of this particular tradition is the absence of names of familiar and prominent personages like Oduduwa, Obatala, Ọrẹ (or Ọrẹlúẹrẹ), etc. which are present in the other later variants of this Yoruba story.

This account from Ìkẹ́du tradition notes that God sent a personage (who is his "servant" and whose name is given in this tradition as "Oko") to go with some aides and establish a home for humankind on earth.

This group (i.e. Oko and his aides) is said to have arrived, from heaven, at a place simply called --- in this tradition as --- "Ooyelagbo". But as their number increased with the resultant effect being land shortages, Oko prayed to God. And in answer to Oko's prayers, God ordered the primordial water to recede, and the dry land which appeared was named --- according to this tradition --- "Ife".

Refer to: ibid.

This foregoing account of creation as per Ìkẹ́du tradition (as well as other subsequent variants) are well known among scholars of Yoruba History as folklores --- known in Yoruba as ìtàn àròbájọ.

Professor Moses Mabayoje noted, in an interview, that he taught this (i.e. Yoruba Folklores) at Rutgam University, United States; for seven years. He added that the Yoruba accounts of creation (even the Ìkẹ́du account as early as it is) are no more than hyperbolic re-tellings (i.e. "àsọdùn" ) of very ancient real Yoruba histories which the early Yoruba people had lost at some point in time.

However, I should quickly add that mythology experts have cautioned against outright dismissals of myths, lengends, and folklores; noting that while it is true that many myths are based purely and entirely on fiction, others are based on fact. They noted that very often, there is a kernel of historical fact that has later snowballed, been exaggerated, been modified, or been distorted over time to form the myth or folklore.

In other words, the foregoing Yoruba account of creation, even as it is, does contain some grains or atoms of an actual historical reality of the early Yoruba people.

It is along this same line that the erudite and prominent historian of African and Yoruba History, Professor S. Adebanji Akintoye has written in his authoritative "A History of the Yoruba People" that a number of historical facts (two of which is relevant to my comment) become obvious from this account of creation.

(1) He writes that:

"To the historian, discerning the meanings and implications of these myths is important. Of the implications, the most obvious would seem to be that the Yoruba people believe that they originated in their present homeland and have always lived there."

He then concluded, in the light of "available archaeological evidence" (which indicates that the earliest humans spread out from the area of the Rift Valley in Eastern Africa between one and three million years ago), that this Yoruba belief (discerned from the folklore) can only mean that:

The "Yoruba people have lived so long in their present homeland that they can no longer remember originally coming into it from elsewhere."

And he further buttressed this foregoing conclusion with the fact that "available archaeological evidence (indeed) strongly indicates that the Yoruba are one of the oldest peoples in the tropical forests of the West African region."

In fact, the "human bones found at Iwo Eleru, dated to about 7000 BC, are the oldest human remains found yet in the whole of West Africa."

Refer to: S. Adebanji Akintoye, A History of the Yoruba People, Amalion Publishing, 2010, pp. 2, 4, and 7.


Having just shown from other harder evidence than folklores (i.e. from available archaeological evidence) that the earliest humans did not originate in the present homeland of the Yoruba people, but in the vast country comprising Eastern Africa.

And having earlier shown from the earliest known creation account of the Yoruba people (i.e. Ìkẹ́du tradition) that the names of prominent personages like Oduduwa, Obatala, Ọrẹ (or Ọrẹlúẹrẹ), etc. did not feature in the supposed creation.

It is, therefore, slowly but surely becoming clear and obvious that the names of personages such as Oduduwa, Obatala, Ọrẹ (or Ọrẹlúẹrẹ), etc. (as seen in other variants of the story) are later introduction into a remix of an already existing folklore.

Who then are these persons? And why did their names come to be later featured in an already existing ancient Yoruba creation story?


(2) If anything is at present unanimously agreed by scholars of Yoruba History, then it is the fact that Oduduwa, Obatala, and many others are not mythical heavenly beings but real human beings, born and raised in Ile-Ife, in a known historical timeline.

It is for this reason among other earlier submissions that the erudite scholar S. Adebanji Akintoye (among others) have discerned another fact and implication from the Yoruba creation account which featured the names of Oduduwa, Obatala, etc. He writes:

"As for the introduction of the names of Obatala and Oduduwa into these creation myths, there seems no doubt that what we have here is a conflation of very ancient myths with later known facts at some point in Yoruba history. As will be seen in subsequent chapters, Obatala and Oduduwa were not mythical, heavenly beings; they were humans --- humans who played very significant roles in a great era of Yoruba history. Without doubt, what happened was that the contemporaries or successors of Obatala and Oduduwa added these two names to myths that had existed probably very long before their time, in an attempt to accord Oduduwa in particular the very high position he deserved in the transformation of Yoruba civilization in the most significant era in early Yoruba history."

Refer to: S. Adebanji Akintoye, A History of the Yoruba People, Amalion Publishing, 2010, p. 3.



My personal additional concluding corroborative remark is that if Oduduwa had truly featured so early in Yoruba history as the popular Yoruba creation accounts claim, then the worship of Oduduwa (as a deity in a Yoruba shrine) would have been very much more widespread in all of Yoruba lands, than it has obviously almost always been restricted to Ile-Ife.

What do you think?

Cheers!

Cc:
Toluobaeko11
MetaPhysical
lawani
geosegun

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Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by MetaPhysical: 3:58am On Aug 09, 2019
^^^
I will give you something to research for cevidence.

Few grains of sand has no significant weight value. But when you scoop up a bowl full the weight of sand suddenly becomes a significant material. We should have knowledge of such a constant part of our daily living. We walk on it daily, use it to cover seed in the ground which grows to become crop, we use it cover our remains after death....and many other uses. So, where did all the sand on earth come from? Can you tell?
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 6:20am On Aug 09, 2019
MetaPhysical:
^^^
I will give you something to research for cevidence.

Few grains of sand has no significant weight value. But when you scoop up a bowl full the weight of sand suddenly becomes a significant material. We should have knowledge of such a constant part of our daily living. We walk on it daily, use it to cover seed in the ground which grows to become crop, we use it cover our remains after death....and many other uses. So, where did all the sand on earth come from? Can you tell?

Brother:

Frankly speaking, I'm not quite clear how your question here (about sand) addresses any of the above incontrovertible evidences (i.e. the ikedu tradition account, the archaeological evidence, and the historical evidence) that I have adduced to enable me reach the conclusion that the man Oduduwa didn't drop from the sky.

But in case you would be demonstrating how the answer to your question would tie in, then consider the following link which contains a quite clear scientific (and verifiable) explanation of what sand is, and where it comes from:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fikk3xQsT_Q

Cheers!

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Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by nisai: 9:31am On Aug 09, 2019
TAO11:



Perhaps! cheesy cheesy

However, what is more important is that you cultivate a reading habit.

Readers are leaders!

Cheers.
I concur. I do not know if you have some books (pdf) that may interest me? I need to catch up sister.
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by nisai: 9:37am On Aug 09, 2019
geosegun:


Well articulated. I can attest to this %100.

Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by MetaPhysical: 11:55am On Aug 09, 2019
TAO11:


Brother:

Frankly speaking, I'm not quite clear how your question here (about sand) addresses any of the above incontrovertible evidences (i.e. the ikedu tradition account, the archaeological evidence, and the historical evidence) that I have adduced to enable me reach the conclusion that the man Oduduwa didn't drop from the sky.

But in case you would be demonstrating how the answer to your question would tie in, then consider the following link which contains a quite clear scientific (and verifiable) explanation of what sand is, and where it comes from:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fikk3xQsT_Q

Cheers!

I believe in my first response two or three days ago I stated the position that some phenomenons in life are just what they are and serve as articles of faith for people who hold belief in them. Not every area of human endeavor need an evidence or a inquisition and we must not dismiss such areas we fail to match evidence as untruthful or non relevant. They are safe harbors for a tradition and its culture. Leave people to their belief.

There are many cultures who believe in earth and worship it. So my question to you on sand is very related in terms of your goal to match a tangible belief to its intangible root. It is deducible.

If you can match evidence of source to the sand material then you can match evidence of truthfullness in Oduduwa's descent. Recall that Oduduwas is reputed to have brought with him a shellfull of sand. Or did you forget that?

We dont have Oduduwa to query for where he came from....but we have sand everywjere and can inquire its root.

Your return that you did not see how the two relate or that you do not understand me exposes your lack of depth in the broad angle of encounters of the subject of Oduduwa. Try harder.
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by gregyboy(m): 12:22pm On Aug 09, 2019
TAO11:


I know you must have skipped a heartbeat when you saw my comment, because I have already beaten you black and blue on another topic from where you quietly escaped to this one without uttering a word.

Now to your idiotic comment as it is typical of you:

Nigeria was a colony of Britain, hence Nigerians speak English language alongside our indigenous languages.

Tell us which of your fictitious and imaginary so-called "Benin kingdom colonies" speak Edo language alongside its own language(s). Bring your PROOF!! cheesy grin

Nay! On the contrary, Benin kingdom was a colony of Ife as we've seen many evidence of that. One of the most prominent of the evidence been that Yoruba language was spoken alongside Edo language in Benin kingdom. I have demonstrated this above with historical evidence.

The Yorubas emancipated your ancestors from the dungeon and shackles of Igodomigodo. We scrapped your archaic monarchy called Ogiso, we introduced a relatively "modern" monarchy to you, called Oba. We introduced the concept of crown to you, and much more.

I wonder what your degenarating condition would have been today had the light from Ife not shone on your ancestors and liberated them from the shackles and savagery of Igodomigodo.

You're only seeking relevance for your pathetic and frustrated soul, and you do so with lies, after which you always quietly exit when given the adequate harsh and embarrassing treatment which you deserve and always seek. grin

Lastly, it is only fair that I should assist your case by mentioning to you how urgently you need to see a psychiatrist.

It is obvious from my exchange with you that you're battling delusion of grandeur. I pray that you find help before you're consumed by it.


Mind you, I'm still waiting for you on the other post from where you ran down here.

There is a home-work which you haven't submitted, a home-work from which you fled.

Till then,

Cheers! cheesy

There is nothing original to the yorubas....in history most of the yoruba culture today 40% were influence by the northerners 30% from edos 20% from the britsh if you like disprove i will then elaborate for your understanding....

On the aspect of speaking yoruba in the palace will be correct the benins was an empire comparising of different ethnic group such as igbos who was once the military commander in edo, obaseki whos origin could be trace to ondo,
Itsekiris,ijaws,kogis so they were many speakers of tgis various dialect in edo but benin was the majour language

On the other hand Oduduwa sculpture is seen to be wearing a rounded bead on his neck and also hand beads which are is an unusual culture for the yorubas coincidenterly benins claims they lost a prince lets assume benins never found this prince but with this description of oduduwas sculpture wont it be save in a sane clime to believe the benins are correct unlike the story of oduduwa from mecca ....lol

The word oba was popularise to the yorubas by the british because of similarities they found
between some yoruba's monarch and the benin monarchs so they decide to ascribe the Benin title oba to describe all yoruba monarchs still the yorubas never gave up thier original title but instead are making tautology by calling themselves oba(king) and thier original title which also means king to adress themselves
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 2:33pm On Aug 09, 2019
MetaPhysical:


I believe in my first response two or three days ago I stated the position that some phenomenons in life are just what they are and serve as articles of faith for people who hold belief in them. Not every area of human endeavor need an evidence or a inquisition and we must not dismiss such areas we fail to match evidence as untruthful or non relevant. They are safe harbors for a tradition and its culture. Leave people to their belief.

There are many cultures who believe in earth and worship it. So my question to you on sand is very related in terms of your goal to match a tangible belief to its intangible root. It is deducible.

If you can match evidence of source to the sand material then you can match evidence of truthfullness in Oduduwa's descent. Recall that Oduduwas is reputed to have brought with him a shellfull of sand. Or did you forget that?

We dont have Oduduwa to query for where he came from....but we have sand everywjere and can inquire its root.

Your return that you did not see how the two relate or that you do not understand me exposes your lack of depth in the broad angle of encounters of the subject of Oduduwa. Try harder.


First, I like to quickly caution that I hate that this discussion should degenerate into an exchange of subtle aggression.

Let's leave it purely at what it should be: An intellectual exchange. And let's not feel troubled or confronted by a different view especially when such views are backed by evidence, by proof, and by reason.

Having said that, I would say that in exchanges like this, the discussants are often discussing different things without them even realizing it until they stop and think, and define their terms clearly.

This is precisely the case here in my exchange with you:

Notice that in my exchange with Toluobaeko11 which you've joined, we obviously hold opposing views. But our opposing views was on the question:

Is it true that the man Oduduwa actually literally drop from the sky?

In response to this question, he seemed to be defending the positive, while I have affirmed the opposite.

A careful contrast of this and my exchange with you shows quite clearly that what you're discussing is not one and the same thing as what I was addressing.

Neither have you affirmed (with evidence or not) that the man Oduduwa literally dropped from the sky; nor have you denied it (with evidence or not) --- And this is the precise question Tolu and I apparently "chose" to discuss.

What your argument or discussion here centers on is quite different and distinct on a very closer look:

You appear to be discussing the question of whether the story should be examined and investigated academically at all, or not. And you seem to be defending the negative.

Well, if you really want to have this different discussion, then you may first consider the fact that it is not really a discussion between you and me per se, but a discussion between you and all the Yoruba and non-Yoruba historians of Yoruba History who have begun their study of Yoruba History with an examination of the strongly held body of Yoruba folklores, and who have discerned that these folklores actually have other meanings and implications just as I have demonstrated.

But even if someone personally choose to want to hold on to the Yoruba creation and origins mythology without questioning (lest the uncomfortable answers would be revealed to them); it is important that I reiterate the following:

(1) There are significantly different variants of the Yoruba creation and origins mythology.


(2) The earliest known body of traditions of the early Yoruba people is (according to the historians of Yoruba History) the Ìkẹ́du tradition.

(3) The earliest variant of the Yoruba creation and origins mythology is therefore as described in the Ìkẹ́du tradition.


(4) The Yoruba creation and origins account as per Ìkẹ́du tradition makes no mention of Oduduwa, Obatala, Oreluere, et al.

(5) Neither does this earliest variant of the Yoruba creation and origins account make any mention of lumps of sand, a white hen, a pigeon, a black cat, a snail, palm kernels, 21 iron pieces, a spider's web, or a golden interlocking chain, etc.

(6) This earliest account simply mentioned a certain personage named "Oko" who came, on God's command, to the island named "Ooyelagbo"; and who simply prayed to God that the primordial water should recede, thus creating the dry land named "Ife" from which the Yoruba people and hence humanity spread out.

Why not believe and hold on to what is earlier and thus closer to being true than later variants which obviously are redactions of earlier accounts?


Lastly, I would quickly touch on your remark that:

"We dont have Oduduwa to query for where he came from....but we have sand everywjere and can inquire its root"

I would say that objective and verifiable inquiries of the historicity of ancient personages actually do not involve ressurecting them (from the dead) for interrogation.

No! It rather involves collecting all the available corpus of traditions (oral or/and written, to the extent that is practicable) and then critiquing these in the light of incontrovertible historical and archaeological evidence.

This is the approach adopted by Professor Sophie Oluwole in her inquiry into the historicity of "Orunmila". She collected diverse traditions about him discussing with several top-most Yoruba Babalawos.

And she examined and critiqued the corpus of traditions in the light of available incontrovertible evidence, sifting the wheat from the chaff; thus coming to situate him in a historical timeline as an ancient sage and philosopher who hailed from Ile-Ife.

This is about the standard methodology, and the leading historians of Yoruba History have always adopted this methodology.

The prevailing conclusion in present time (using this methodology) about the personage named "Oduduwa" (and daring to inquire the rational behind the classical Johnsonian hypothesis, which has been accepted without hesitation, question, or scrutiny until deep into the twentieth century, i.e., the 1900s) is that "Oduduwa" is actually a real human being, born and raised in Ife, and situated in about the late 10th century CE. (i.e. about late 900s C.E.)

I advice every Yoruba person who would read a book on Yoruba History to get a copy of S. Adebanji Akintoye's "A History of the Yoruba People". It's a must read.


It is an outstanding, audacious, and refreshing scholarly comprehensive research work of about thirty-two years, by a Professor of African and Yoruba History who has been in the frontline of African and Yoruba history studies for over four decades in different Nigerian and U.S. prestigious and foremost universities.

It enjoyed the inputs and reviews of a galaxy of world-renowned historians of African and Yoruba History such as: J. F. Ade Ajayi (Emeritus Professor of History, University of Ibadan, Nigeria); Elisee Soumonni (Retired Professor of African History and Archaeology, National University of Benin, Benin Republic); Robin C. C. Law (Professor of African History, Stirling University, Scotland); Toyin Falola (the Frances Higginbotham Nalle Centennial Professor of History, University of Texas, U.S.); Funso Afolayan (Associate Professor of History and African Studies, University of New Hampshire, Durham); and Adebayo Oyebade (Professor of History, Tennessee State University, Nashville).

This is not a paid advert tho! cheesy

Cheers!

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Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 3:12pm On Aug 09, 2019
gregyboy:


There is nothing original to the yorubas....in history most of the yoruba culture today 40% were influence by the northerners 30% from edos 20% from the britsh if you like disprove i will then elaborate for your understanding....

On the aspect of speaking yoruba in the palace will be correct the benins was an empire comparising of different ethnic group such as igbos who was once the military commander in edo, obaseki whos origin could be trace to ondo,
Itsekiris,ijaws,kogis so they were many speakers of tgis various dialect in edo but benin was the majour language

On the other hand Oduduwa sculpture is seen to be wearing a rounded bead on his neck and also hand beads which are is an unusual culture for the yorubas coincidenterly benins claims they lost a prince lets assume benins never found this prince but with this description of oduduwas sculpture wont it be save in a sane clime to believe the benins are correct unlike the story of oduduwa from mecca ....lol

The word oba was popularise to the yorubas by the british because of similarities they found
between some yoruba's monarch and the benin monarchs so they decide to ascribe the Benin title oba to describe all yoruba monarchs still the yorubas never gave up thier original title but instead are making tautology by calling themselves oba(king) and thier original title which also means king to adress themselves

Lol!

I advice that you should change your moniker to "AWellKnownLiar".

And that's because I have exposed you again and again severally for what you are.

I have before now beaten you black and blue on all of these claims on another thread from where you quietly exited without uttering a word till date, after much beaten.

But to expose you here one more time:

The dead and buried hypothesis which you're trying to resuscitate is the self-contradictory idea that your exiled prince Ekaladerhan is one and the same person as the Yoruba's Oduduwa.

Let's see how well the so-called evidence with which you want to defend this fiction would fare:

(1) Your thesis is that Ekaladerhan is Oduduwa.

And your so-called evidence is that Ife bronze/brass sculptures show Yoruba kings dressed in a beaded regalia that appears to you to belong to the Binis.

Hence these Yoruba kings (or one of them) is Oduduwa and hence, he is your Edo prince Ekaladerhan.


The Real Evidence:

(a) Premise 1:
Benin traditions, supported by scholarly academic testimony, claims that the use of beads was introduced into Benin kingdom during the reign of Oba Ewuare 1.

(b) Premise 2:
Benin tradition makes it incontrovertible clear that prince Ekaladerhan lived some three hundred years before Oba Ewuare 1.

(c) Conclusion:
Your prince Ekaladerhan, therefore, never dressed in a beaded regalia; hence he could not possibly have been the one represented by any the Ife bronze/brass sculptures of kings in elaborate beaded regalia.


Another Real Evidence:

(a) Premise 1:
Benin traditions, supported by scholarly academic testimony, claims that the use of beads was introduced into Benin kingdom during the reign of Oba Ewuare 1.

(b) Premise 2:
Obe Ewuare 1 reigned in Benin, just before the coming of the Portuguese. He reigned from 1440 to 1473 even according to Benin chronology of kings.

(c) Premise 3:
Ile-Ife already had a bubbling industry of beads production (i.e. dichroic glass beads, called "segi" or "akori" and coral tubular beads called "iyun" ) from as early as the 12th century CE, i.e., 1100s (or possibly centuries earlier)

(d) Conclusion:
Not only are the Ife bronze/brass castings not representative of Ekaladerhan (or any Bini); they clearly are representative of Yoruba kings from the early evidence of beads production in Ife.


Another Real Evidence:

(a) Premise 1:
Benin traditions, supported by scholarly academic testimony, claims that the use of beads was introduced into Benin kingdom during the reign of Oba Ewuare 1.

(b) Premise 2:
Obe Ewuare 1 reigned in Benin, just before the coming of the Portuguese. He reigned from 1440 to 1473 even according to Benin chronology of kings.

(c) Premise 2:
Many of the Ife bronze/brass sculptures showing the kings dressed in elaborate beaded regalia have been dated by archaeologists (after been excavated from Ile-Ife) to latest of early 14th century; i.e. early 1300s.

(d) Conclusion:
The Ife bronze/sculptures representing the kings dressed in elaborate beaded regalia we're produced a century before the knowledge and use of beads in Benin kingdom.


Another Real Evidence:

(a) Premise 1:
Many of the Ife bronze/brass sculptures of kings dressed in elaborate beaded regalia shows the kings to be having the Ife ethnic facial vertical markings which is alien to Edo culture.

(b) Premise2:
There are real photographs even in modern times of Yorubas with such ethnic facial vertical markings (alien to Edo culture).

(c) Conclusion:
Such ethnic facial marking is, therefore, a Yoruba cultural reality; and thus the kings (dressed in the elaborate beaded regalia) represented by the Ife bronze/brass sculpture bearing this ethnic facial marking are Ife-Yorubas (and not Binis).


I think the foregoing is clear enough to any sane mind that the beaded regalia (of rounded beaded necklaces on longer beaded ones) depicted by the Ife bronze/brass sculptures of Ife kings; are of Ife origin, and are later introduced into Bini culture during Eware's reign or later on.

Lastly, on your absurd claim on the word "Oba", the following is my argument which I have already presented to you before and which you had dared not to challenge:

"I asked you a very important question on the etymological derivation of the word "Oba" in Edo language.

I noted that IF the word "Oba" (for "King" ) was always part of Edo lexicon, then the word (i.e. "Oba" ) must not only have an etymological derivation from Edo language, but the root word from which the word "Oba" is to be derived must also make it signify "King" or "Ruler"

And the rambling you gave as explanation failed miserably and woefully.

The word "Oba" in Edo language is said to be derived from the root word "Ba". This Edo root word clearly means: "Shine" or "Brighten", such that the derived form "Oba" then means: "That which shines" or "That which brightens."

This is not the same as the word: "Ruler" or "King" by any stretch of the imagination.


On the other hand; the word "Oba" (for "King" ) comes from the Yoruba language. It comes from the root word "Ba" (as seen in the phrase: "Oba Ba Lori Ohun Gbo-gbo"--- meaning, "King rules over everything" )

"Ba" clearly means "Rule", "Preside", or "Dominate", such that the derived form "Oba" then means: "One who rules", "One who presides", or "One who dominates".

This is clearly one and the same as the word: "Ruler" or "King".




Anyone interested in seeing the details of where I have since exposed and disgraced this boy before now should follow the detailed exchange between us (from where he ran away never to return till this moment) at the following link:

https://www.nairaland.com/5233907/yoruba-descendants-brazil-cerebrate-obaluwaye/12#80726459

The link also contains the detailed evidence to each of my premises here.

gregboy please note that you haven't submitted the homework I gave you from which you fled.

Cheers!

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Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by MetaPhysical: 3:27pm On Aug 09, 2019
First, the video you shared of where sand came from is not a serious submission to reference. Thats too casual an explanation for origin of sand, given that when we wake from sleep there is even traceable particles of sand left on the sheets for someone hundreds of miles away from the beach. But lets even leave that to the side.

This discussion of finding truth in Oduduwa's descent is what, as I said earlier, a belief tradition. I will give a couple of belief traditions that are similar.

A child was born of a virgin
A man's wooden rod turned to serpent
A man was swallowed by whale but lived
A man was thrown into fire and not burnt
A man died on earth & ascended heaven
A man descended from heaven to earth

All these are parallels but each one is a contradiction to logic. Are they true? Is there evidence to support their truth? Yet every year people worship based on these myths....and will vontinue to do so into eternity.


Humanity and advanced civilizations have exended vast knowledge inquiring about mysteries of life and discovering their beginnings or even the truthfullness behind them....yet we have not discarded the belief of a wood that turned to snake and devoured other snakes. Nor have we stopped to honor and revere a man that survived many days in the belly of a fish that swallowed him.

The belief that Oduduwa descended from heaven lives on as a MYTH.
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 3:54pm On Aug 09, 2019
MetaPhysical:
First, the video you shared of where sand came from is not a serious submission to reference. Thats too casual an explanation for origin of sand, given that when we wake from sleep there is even traceable particles of sand left on the sheets for someone hundreds of miles away from the beach. But lets even leave that to the side.

This discussion of finding truth in Oduduwa's descent is what, as I said earlier, a belief tradition. I will give a couple of belief traditions that are similar.

A child was born of a virgin
A man's wooden rod turned to serpent
A man was swallowed by whale but lived
A man was thrown into fire and not burnt
A man died on earth & ascended heaven
A man descended from heaven to earth

All these are parallels but each one is a contradiction to logic. Are they true? Is there evidence to support their truth? Yet every year people worship based on these myths....and will vontinue to do so into eternity.


Humanity and advanced civilizations have exended vast knowledge inquiring about mysteries of life and discovering their beginnings or even the truthfullness behind them....yet we have not discarded the belief of a wood that turned to snake and devoured other snakes. Nor have we stopped to honor and revere a man that survived many days in the belly of a fish that swallowed him.

The belief that Oduduwa descended from heaven lives on as a MYTH.


I'm glad you eventually got my point.


modified:

Just to add a few clarifying words on the "similar" traditions you have submitted:

If these traditions are false, that in no way constitutes evidence that the Yoruba creation story is also false.

And if on the other hand they are true, that also in no way constitutes evidence that the Yoruba creation story is true.


The Yoruba creation story must be either true or false for reasons other than those.

But regardless of which it is, the Yoruba creation story (regardless of the version) obviously belongs to the larger body of Yoruba mythology with which historians of Yoruba History, by default, begin a study of the history of the Yorubas.

But we must learn not to confuse our myths with our history

Cheers!

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