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Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor - Culture (3) - Nairaland

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The Name Lagos, Was Called Ekonunuame By The Benins / Why Onitsha Is Not An Igboland, It Belongs To Benins / Benins Are The Owners Of Ogboni Confraternity and olokun worship (2) (3) (4)

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Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by gregyboy(m): 4:25pm On Aug 09, 2019
TAO11:


Lol!

I advice that you should change your moniker to "WellKnownLiar".

And that's because I have exposed you again and again severally for what you are.

I have before now beaten you black and blue on all of these claims on another thread from where you quietly exited without uttering a word till date, after much beaten.

But to expose you here one more time:

The dead and buried hypothesis which you're trying to resuscitate is the self-contradictory idea that your exiled prince Ekaladerhan is one and the same person as the Yoruba's Oduduwa.

Let's see how well the so-called evidence with which you want to defend this fiction would fare:

(1) Your thesis is that Ekaladerhan is Oduduwa.

And your so-called evidence is that Ife bronze/brass sculptures show Yoruba kings dressed in a beaded regalia that appears to you to belong to the Binis.

Hence these Yoruba kings (or one of them) is Oduduwa and hence, he is your Edo prince Ekaladerhan.


The Real Evidence:

(a) Premise 1:
Benin traditions, supported by scholarly academic testimony, claims that the use of beads was introduced into Benin kingdom during the reign of Oba Ewuare 1.

(b) Premise 2:
Benin tradition makes it incontrovertible clear that prince Ekaladerhan lived some three hundred years before Oba Ewuare 1.

(c) Conclusion:
Your prince Ekaladerhan, therefore, never dressed in a beaded regalia; hence he could not possibly have been the one represented by any the Ife bronze/brass sculptures of kings in elaborate beaded regalia.


Another Real Evidence:

(a) Premise 1:
Benin traditions, supported by scholarly academic testimony, claims that the use of beads was introduced into Benin kingdom during the reign of Oba Ewuare 1.

(b) Premise 2:
Obe Ewuare 1 reigned in Benin, just before the coming of the Portuguese. He reigned from 1440 to 1473 even according to Benin chronology of kings.

(c) Premise 3:
Ile-Ife already had a bubbling industry of beads production[ (i.e. dichroic glass beads, called "segi" or "akori" and coral tubular beads called "iyun"wink from as early as the 12th century CE, i.e., 1100s (or possibly centuries earlier)

(d) Conclusion:
Not only are the Ife bronze/brass castings not representative of Ekaladerhan (or any Bini); they clearly are representative of Yoruba kings from the early evidence of beads production in Ife.


Another Real Evidence:

(a) Premise 1:
Benin traditions, supported by scholarly academic testimony, claims that the use of beads was introduced into Benin kingdom during the reign of Oba Ewuare 1.

(b) Premise 2:
Obe Ewuare 1 reigned in Benin, just before the coming of the Portuguese. He reigned from 1440 to 1473 even according to Benin chronology of kings.

(c) Premise 2:
Many of the Ife bronze/brass sculptures showing the kings dressed in elaborate beaded regalia have been dated by archaeologists (after been excavated from Ile-Ife) to latest of early 14th century; i.e. early 1300s.

(d) Conclusion:
The Ife bronze/sculptures representing the kings dressed in elaborate beaded regalia we're produced a century before the knowledge and use of beads in Benin kingdom.


Another Real Evidence:

(a) Premise 1:
Many of the Ife bronze/brass sculptures of kings dressed in elaborate beaded regalia shows the kings to be having the Ife ethnic facial vertical markings which is alien to Edo culture.

(b) Premise2:
There are real photographs even in modern times of Yorubas with such ethnic facial vertical markings (alien to Edo culture).

(c) Conclusion:
Such ethnic facial marking is therefore a Yoruba cultural reality, and thus the kings (dressed in elaborate beaded regalia) represented by the Ife bronze/brass sculpture bearing thic etnic marking are Ife-Yorubas (and not Bini).


I think the foregoing is clear enough to any sane mind that the beaded regalia (of rounded beaded necklaces on longer beaded necklaces) depicted by the Ife bronze/brass sculptures of Ife kings; are of Ife origin and are later introduced into Bini culture during Eware's reign or later on.


Ife never produced beads ...they all got thier beeds from the north in exchange of goods

Saying ewuare brought beeds to benin thats wrong ...collecting beeds from mermaid (B.S)
You believing that scrap makes me wonder you believe the b.s of oduduwa falling from the sky

Ivie : popular red or pinkish in colour was introduce by the pourtuguese this beeds cant be found in any local river but rather in the sea so i wonder how ewuare got to the sea when he had no boat
Ekan on the other hand is a more tiny beeds very tiny and reddish in colur it is a beed won by the benins before the birth of ewaure ...it is the beads edo wore that made the Portuguese offer coral beeds as gratitude to the oba if they never saw ekan beeds with the benin people i wonder why they will just imagine to bring beads to Benin at the first journey

Ewuares only made laws to guide the use of ekan before is death
When you check the images of all kings in benin
You will find beeds in all thier necks are you going to dispute that .
another yoruba site claims yorubas introduce beeds to benins i guess you should have also posted that too

I wouldnt post links i really dont have times for that perhaps most links are means to gather knowledge they are Actually not too correct ....so i prefer not to post. But keep posting am entertained
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Mancala: 5:09pm On Aug 09, 2019
Don't mean to derail the thread but thought this would be a good place to ask a question I've had at the back of my mind since I visited the British Museum. The figure of a king riding a horse (wearing beads?) has disinct tribal marks. Has anyone figured out which part of Nigeria is associated with this type of facial scarification? I did a quick search somtime ago but thought I should put the question to the experts on this thread. Thanks in anticipation of your responses.

Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by geosegun(m): 5:43pm On Aug 09, 2019
Mancala:
Don't mean to derail the thread but thought this would be a good place to ask a question I've had at the back of my mind since I visited the British Museum. The figure of a king riding a horse (wearing beads?) has disinct tribal marks. Has anyone figured out which part of Nigeria is associated with this type of facial scarification? I did a quick search somtime ago but thought I should put the question to the experts on this thread. Thanks in anticipation of your responses.

Those facial scarifications are common among the Tiv/Tapa/Igala people. Mainly of Tapa/Tiv people, I think.

1 Like

Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 6:28pm On Aug 09, 2019
gregyboy:


Ife never produced beads ...they all got thier beeds from the north in exchange of goods

Saying ewuare brought beeds to benin thats wrong ...collecting beeds from mermaid (B.S)
You believing that scrap makes me wonder you believe the b.s of oduduwa falling from the sky

Ivie : popular red or pinkish in colour was introduce by the pourtuguese this beeds cant be found in any local river but rather in the sea so i wonder how ewuare got to the sea when he had no boat
Ekan on the other hand is a more tiny beeds very tiny and reddish in colur it is a beed won by the benins before the birth of ewaure ...it is the beads edo wore that made the Portuguese offer coral beeds as gratitude to the oba if they never saw ekan beeds with the benin people i wonder why they will just imagine to bring beads to Benin at the first journey

Ewuares only made laws to guide the use of ekan before is death
When you check the images of all kings in benin
You will find beeds in all thier necks are you going to dispute that .
another yoruba site claims yorubas introduce beeds to benins i guess you should have also posted that too

I wouldnt post links i really dont have times for that perhaps most links are means to gather knowledge they are Actually not too correct ....so i prefer not to post. But keep posting am entertained

You're only exposing yourself more, by thinking that you will cover up a smaller hole by digging a bigger one. cheesy

Your Bini tradition claims that it was Ewuare1 (who lived and died before the first Portuguese delegation came to Benin kingdom) that introduced beads to Benin kingdom. Whether he truly got them from a sea deity or not is not my business, that is for the Edos to reconcile.

No problem if you really want to disown your Bini tradition. But claiming that it was the Portuguese (who arrived after Ewuare1 had died in 1473) that introduced beads to Benin kingdom even makes your case worse.

This is because the gap between beads production in Ife and the use of beads in Benin gets wider.

And in case you had thought I won't be able to re-post the evidence of beads production in Ife, then here we go:

"The Yoruba people have, in fact, been producing beads in Ile-Ife since as early as the 12th century --- that is, since as early as the 1100s. --- that is, some 300 years before the Portuguese would according to you introduce its use to Benin kingdom.

Refer to the academic paper at the following link for enlightenment:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281149310_Glass_Beads_from_Igbo-Olokun_Ile-Ife_Chemical_Composition_Production_and_Regional_Interaction

It contains the scholarly academic paper entitled:

"Glass Beads from Igbo-Olokun, Ile-Ife: Chemical Composition, Production, and Regional Interaction",

The paper was presented at an annual conference of the Society for American Archaeology."

And it states clearly in the Abstract, and I quote here:

"The site of Igbo Olokun in the city of Ife, in southwestern Nigeria has been identified as a primary glass and glass beads production center dating to the “Classic” period (12th-15th c.)"



Having said that, if you're really desperate to claim that some kind of beads were already in use in Benin kingdom prior to Ewuare1); then do so by the adducing evidence. Don't just simply submit a wishful thinking or your personal word-of-mouth.

Stop giving excuses like:

Although I have time to argue with you, I don't have time to provide evidence for whatever bogus statement I make.

Does such an idea even make sense to you?

If you have the time to make any claim, then you should have the time to defend it with scholarly academic evidence.

Provide the evidence for your imagination.


And regarding your claim that some drawings of pre-Ewuare1 kings of Benin (such as is shown in the following link) show the use of beads:

https://www.edoworld.net/Obas.html

This is the lamest argument I have ever heard. If you really believe this desperate face-saving claim you just made; then you probably believe that Jesus Christ is an American/European just because drawings portray him as such.

Address my arguments (earlier ones and this one, if you believe you can), and if you can't, then simply move on with your delusion.

Bye!


Modified:

You're a shameless liar!

Both Ivie and Ekan are coral beads even according to your Edo website shown below.

In case you want to stick to your Benin tradition, then your Edo website says it was Oba Ewuare in the 1400's A.D. who brought them (i.e coral beads) to Benin kingdom.

But in case you hate to stick to Benin traditions, then even your Edo website below says that coral beads are mined from bushlike formations in oceans, such as the Mediterranean sea and the sea of Japan.

http://www.edofolks.com/html/pub8.htm

But in any case, the keyword is "coral beads". And that comprises of both Ivie and Ekan. Stop pretending like "coral beads" refer only to "Ivie". Your Edo website has already exposed you on that.

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Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 6:34pm On Aug 09, 2019
Mancala:
Don't mean to derail the thread but thought this would be a good place to ask a question I've had at the back of my mind since I visited the British Museum. The figure of a king riding a horse (wearing beads?) has disinct tribal marks. Has anyone figured out which part of Nigeria is associated with this type of facial scarification? I did a quick search somtime ago but thought I should put the question to the experts on this thread. Thanks in anticipation of your responses.

That bronze sculpture is not of a king.

There is more than one of such bronze/brass sculpture (they are termed: "the horse and the horse rider" ), and they are unanimously interpreted by experts as representing Igala/Yagba messengers from Ife bringing the knowledge of bronze/brass casting to Benin kingdom on the request of Oba Oguola to his overlord, the Ooni of Ife.

Refer to the following British Museum/BBC documentary on Benin castings. Refer specifically to time stamp 48:00 to 48:22 :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQY_Jd--pwI&t=2070s


See also:

Suzanne Preston Blier, "Art in Ancient Ife, Birthplace of the Yoruba", African Arts, Winter 2012, Vol. 45 (4), p. 77

https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/blier/files/blier.pdf

It reads:

"Several Florescence Era Ife terracotta heads (roughly 5 percent of the whole) display three elliptical “cat whisker” facial marks at the corners of the mouth (Fig. 25) similar to those associated with more recent northeastern Yagba Yoruba, a group who later came under Nupe rule. In one such sculpture, the marks extend into the cheeks in a manner consistent with later Yoruba abaja facial markings, indicating an historic connection between the two. According to Andrew Apter (p.c.), a group of Yagba Yoruba occupy an Ife ward where the Iyagba dialect is still sometimes spoken. Most historic Yagba communities are found in the Ekiti Yoruba region where early iron working sites have been found (Obayemi 1992:73, 74). It is possible that Ife’s Yagba population was involved in complementary iron-working and smelting activities at this center. This tradition also offers interesting insight into Benin figures holding blacksmith tools with three similar facial marks, works
said to depict messengers from Ife."



Cheers!

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Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Nobody: 8:32pm On Aug 09, 2019
Mancala:
Don't mean to derail the thread but thought this would be a good place to ask a question I've had at the back of my mind since I visited the British Museum. The figure of a king riding a horse (wearing beads?) has disinct tribal marks. Has anyone figured out which part of Nigeria is associated with this type of facial scarification? I did a quick search somtime ago but thought I should put the question to the experts on this thread. Thanks in anticipation of your responses.

This is not the right place to ask questions. The Yoruba on this forum are politicizing everything in order to make their tribe look good. That statue has nothing to do with the Yoruba. It was taken by British soldiers from the palace of the Oba of Benin. You are going to have to do your own research and perhaps get in contact with the British museum or Oba's palace. Don't listen to the guy above, he is a known liar and ethnic biggot claiming Edo heritage as Yoruba belongings.

2 Likes

Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Mancala: 8:37pm On Aug 09, 2019
TAO11:


That bronze sculpture is not of a king.

There is more than one of such bronze/brass sculpture (they are termed: "the horse and the horse rider" ), and they are unanimously interpreted by experts as representing Igala/Yagba messengers from Ife bringing the knowledge of bronze/brass casting to Benin kingdom on the request of Oba Oguola to his overlord, the Ooni of Ife.

Refer to the following British Museum/BBC documentary on Benin castings. Refer specifically to time stamp 48:00 to 48:22 :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQY_Jd--pwI&t=2070s


See also:

Suzanne Preston Blier, "Art in Ancient Ife, Birthplace of the Yoruba", African Arts, Winter 2012, Vol. 45 (4), p. 77

https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/blier/files/blier.pdf

It reads:

"Several Florescence Era Ife terracotta heads (roughly 5 percent of the whole) display three elliptical “cat whisker” facial marks at the corners of the mouth (Fig. 25) similar to those associated with more
recent northeastern Yagba Yoruba, a group who later came under Nupe rule In one such sculpture, the marks extend into the cheeks in a manner consistent with later Yoruba abaja facial markings, indicating an historic connection between the two. According to Andrew Apter (p.c.), a group of Yagba Yoruba occupy an Ife ward where the Iyagba dialect is still sometimes spoken. Most historic Yagba communities are found in the Ekiti Yoruba region where early iron working sites have been found (Obayemi 1992:73, 74).19 It is possible that Ife’s Yagba population was involved in complementary iron-working and smelting activities at this center. This tradition also offers interesting insight into Benin figures holding blacksmith tools with three similar facial marks, works
said to depict messengers from Ife."



Cheers!

Thanks for enlightening me. This question has been at the back of my mind for a while after visiting the British Museum as an adult after a long hiatus from my visits as a child. I conducted a cursory investigation immediately after and found the Yagba connection to the tribal marks linking to the Ebira people but left it at that. I never knew there were indigenous populations in Ife and Ekiti. Most interesting and engaging stuff. I plan to go back to the museum for a less rushed visit ......my companions on the last visit were more intersted in making it to the cafe on time for high tea grin

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Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Nobody: 8:42pm On Aug 09, 2019
Mancala:


Thanks for enlightening me. This question has been at the back of my mind for a while after visiting the British Museum as an adult after a long hiatus from my visits as a child. I conducted a cursory investigation immediately after and found the Yagba connection to the tribal marks linking to the Ebira people but left it at that. I never knew there were indigenous populations in Ife and Ekiti. Most interesting and engaging stuff. I plan to go back to the museum for a less rushed visit ......my companions on the last visit were more intersted in making it to the cafe on time for high tea grin
my friend you are thanking him while he is misleading you. First of all, the statue has nothing to do with ife or Yoruba. And the Oba of Benin was an emperor leading an empire while ife was a small village. It is totally ridiculous to claim the ooni of ife were the overlord of the Oba of Benin. The Oba of Benin was the overlord. There was nobody above the Oba of Benin.
Given the ease with which you believe the Yoruba liar and your total absence of scepticism I can only wonder, are you Yoruba ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh2Tac1gNPU

1 Like

Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Nobody: 8:47pm On Aug 09, 2019
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Mancala: 9:31pm On Aug 09, 2019
I have no horse in this race. I am only trying to answer a question that has been at the back of my mind for a while after seeing the tribal marks on the horseman. I went back and examined the pictures I took (literally hundreds of them) and found one with the museums description of the horeman. If you enlarge the picture, you will see the museums description at the bottom. I quote "This figure has been interpreted in several ways: as a smith bringing the skill of brasscasting from Ife, as a chief from the north and as Oba Oranmiyan, a founder of the present dynasty"

Seeing the elaborate headdress, I thought it was more likely to be a King or some high chief and wondered what was the connection with the "whiskers" like scarifications to either Benin or Ife? The anwers provided have satisfied my intellectual curiosity.

2 Likes

Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Nobody: 9:40pm On Aug 09, 2019
Mancala:
I have no horse in this race. I am only trying to answer a question that has been at the back of my mind for a while after seeing the tribal marks on the horseman. I went back and examined the pictures I took (literally hundreds of them) and found one with the museums description of the horeman. If you enlarge the picture, you will see the museums description at the bottom. I quote "This figure has been interpreted in several ways: as a smith bringing the skill of brasscasting from Ife, as a chief from the north and as Oba Oranmiyan, a founder of the present dynasty"

Seeing the elaborate headdress, I thought it was more likely to be a King or some high chief and wondered what was the connection with the "whiskers" like scarifications to either Benin or Ife? The anwers provided have satisfied my intellectual curiosity.
you know nothing the guy tells you is true, yet you claim he satisfied your intellectual curiosity. Well I guess you are certainly not an intellectual. You only play being intellectual. You do have a dog in this fight. You are most likely a Yoruba denying it right now like you guys do when you want to sound credible. The only people claiming the statue has anything to do with ife are the Yoruba jealous people whom after sighting all the British took from the palace of the Oba of Benin, started trying to claim those treasures as linked to Yoruba. The only people who chose to focus on this one Benin bronze among the more than 7000 are the Yoruba, because their jealous ancestors from the colonial era claimed it were linked to Yoruba.
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Nobody: 9:42pm On Aug 09, 2019
This is one of the reasons Nigeria will never move forward, the likes of the Yoruba are too comfortable living a lie. There is no other people on this earth which is so hell bent on claiming an other people's heritage. What kind of low self esteem is eating you Yoruba up ?
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 9:56pm On Aug 09, 2019
Mancala:
I have no horse in this race. I am only trying to answer a question that has been at the back of my mind for a while after seeing the tribal marks on the horseman. I went back and examined the pictures I took (literally hundreds of them) and found one with the museums description of the horeman. If you enlarge the picture, you will see the museums description at the bottom. I quote "This figure has been interpreted in several ways: as a smith bringing the skill of brasscasting from Ife, as a chief from the north and as Oba Oranmiyan, a founder of the present dynasty"

Seeing the elaborate headdress, I thought it was more likely to be a King or some high chief and wondered what was the connection with the "whiskers" like scarifications to either Benin or Ife? The anwers provided have satisfied my intellectual curiosity.

I am glad that you are wiser to know that evidence supercedes word-of-mouth.

Let whoever think that the foregoing bronze casting represents other than messengers from Ife bringing the knowledge of metal casting to Benin kingdom produce their evidence and not just word-of-mouth or distractions to other issues.

Cc:
prolog3111

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Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Nobody: 9:58pm On Aug 09, 2019
TAO11:


I am glad that you are wiser to know that evidence supercedes word of mouth.

Let whoever think that the foregoing bronze casting represents other than messengers from Ife bringing the knowledge of metal casting to Benin kingdom produce their evidence and not just word of mouth or distractions to other issues.

Cc:
prolog3111
and what "evidence" did you bring ? A small village with no architecture teaching an advanced empire how to cast metal ? Give me a break.
An illiterate doesn't teach physics to a Nobel price winning physicist
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Nobody: 10:04pm On Aug 09, 2019
To every Nigerian, it is time to stop confusing made up stories, myths with actual history. Oduduwa never existed, oranmiyan never existed. I'm tired of these made up stories. The earliest records of west Africa which were made in the 15th century after Christ show the Oba of Benin as leading a large empire named Benin Kingdom whose capital is called Benin city. There is no record of any relations between Benin Kingdom and ife. Before the arrival of the British, ife was a small village with almost no architecture, an insignificant little village with no army and no architecture.
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 10:15pm On Aug 09, 2019
prolog3111:
and what "evidence" did you bring? A small village with no architecture teaching an advanced empire how to cast metal? Give me a break.
An illiterate doesn't teach physics to a Nobel price winning physicist

Firstly, be reminded that your boldened statement above is your own personal word-of-mouth. Adduce your evidence for it if you wish to be taken seriously.



Secondly, since you just pretended to be blind earlier to the evidence, then here we go one more time with the evidence:


"Refer to the following Yoruba women documentary British Museum/BBC documentary on Benin castings. Refer specifically to time stamp 48:00 to 48:22 :



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQY_Jd--pwI&t=2070s


See also: 

TAO11 Suzanne Preston Blier, "Art in Ancient Ife, Birthplace of the Yoruba", African Arts, Winter 2012, Vol. 45 (4), p. 77

https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/blier/files/blier.pdf

Where it reads:

"Several Florescence Era Ife terracotta heads (roughly 5 percent of the whole) display three elliptical “cat whisker” facial marks at the corners of the mouth (Fig. 25) similar to those associated with more 
recent northeastern Yagba Yoruba, a group who later came under Nupe rule In one such sculpture, the marks extend into the cheeks in a manner consistent with later Yoruba abaja facial markings, indicating an historic connection between the two. According to Andrew Apter (p.c.), a group of Yagba Yoruba occupy an Ife ward where the Iyagba dialect is still sometimes spoken. Most historic Yagba communities are found in the Ekiti Yoruba region where early iron working sites have been found (Obayemi 1992:73, 74).19 It is possible that Ife’s Yagba population was involved in complementary iron-working and smelting activities at this center. This tradition also offers interesting insight into Benin figures holding blacksmith tools with three similar facial marks, works said to depict messengers from Ife."



In case you can't take the foregoing as evidence, then let me know what you really want as evidence.

Stop fighting with reality!
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by geosegun(m): 10:20pm On Aug 09, 2019
prolog3111:
and what "evidence" did you bring ? A small village with no architecture teaching an advanced empire how to cast metal ? Give me a break.
An illiterate doesn't teach physics to a Nobel price winning physicist

Stop calling Benin an empire. It is a younger and much more recent Kingdom compare to others and it owes her civilisation to that to Ife. So stop peddling lies all over the place. We know the truth.

2 Likes

Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 10:25pm On Aug 09, 2019
prolog3111:
To every day Nigerian, it is time to stop confusing made up stories, myths with actual history.Oduduwa never existed, oranmiyan never existed. I'm tired of these made up stories.



The earliest records of west Africa which were made in the 15th century after Christ show the Oba of Benin as leading a large empire named Benin Kingdom whose capital is called Benin city. There is no record of any relations between Benin Kingdom and ife.

[s]Before the arrival of the British, ife was a small village with almost no architecture, an insignificant little village with no army and no architecture.[/s]

Regarding your first boldened claim above, I'd simply ask that you produce your evidence so as to be taken seriously. Otherwise people will start seeing you for whom you really are, i.e., a Looney.

The same thing applies to your crossed out statement.

Regarding the italicized part of your argument (including the second boldened part), then consider the attached screenshot. cheesy


Having said that, I'd like to ask you not to run away from defending your statement about the bronze/beas casting under discussion. Tell us what the casting of "the horse and horse rider" represents if not messenger from Ife bringing the knowledge of metal casting techniques to Benin kingdom cheesy

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Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Nobody: 10:32pm On Aug 09, 2019
TAO11:


Firstly, be reminded that your boldened statement above is your own personal word-of-mouth. Adduce your evidence for it if you wish to be taken seriously.



Secondly, since you just pretended to be blind earlier to the evidence, then here we go one more time with the evidence:


"Refer to the following Yoruba women documentary British Museum/BBC documentary on Benin castings. Refer specifically to time stamp 48:00 to 48:22 :



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQY_Jd--pwI&t=2070s


See also: 

TAO11 Suzanne Preston Blier, "Art in Ancient Ife, Birthplace of the Yoruba", African Arts, Winter 2012, Vol. 45 (4), p. 77

https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/blier/files/blier.pdf

Where it reads:

"Several Florescence Era Ife terracotta heads (roughly 5 percent of the whole) display three elliptical “cat whisker” facial marks at the corners of the mouth (Fig. 25) similar to those associated with more 
recent northeastern Yagba Yoruba, a group who later came under Nupe rule In one such sculpture, the marks extend into the cheeks in a manner consistent with later Yoruba abaja facial markings, indicating an historic connection between the two. According to Andrew Apter (p.c.), a group of Yagba Yoruba occupy an Ife ward where the Iyagba dialect is still sometimes spoken. Most historic Yagba communities are found in the Ekiti Yoruba region where early iron working sites have been found (Obayemi 1992:73, 74).19 It is possible that Ife’s Yagba population was involved in complementary iron-working and smelting activities at this center. This tradition also offers interesting insight into Benin figures holding blacksmith tools with three similar facial marks, works said to depict messengers from Ife."



In case you can't take the foregoing as evidence, then let me know what you really want as evidence.

Stop fighting with reality!

You apparently don't know what the word evidence means. But let us go into the video which you provided and the quote of preston Blair.

1) there is actually no proof in the video. If you thought the British accent of some of the people talking would impress me, then think again.

2) the video is heavilly doctored. It is a bunch of videos assembled together, the different sources are not clear, nor are their motives and their paymasters.

3) Preston Blair didn't study Benin, she only studied yoruba art. All her sources are Yoruba.

It is amazing how desperate you are at claiming the heritage of an entirely different people ! Didn't your ancestors live anything behind ? You low self esteem bitch !

2 Likes

Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 10:32pm On Aug 09, 2019
It's pretty easy to catch a liar (especially a Bini e-liar), just ask them to produce the evidence for what they just said.

You will see confusion everywhere. grin

1 Like

Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Nobody: 10:37pm On Aug 09, 2019
TAO11:
It's pretty easy to catch a liar (especially a Bini e-liar), just ask them to produce the evidence for what they just said.

You will see confusion everywhere. grin
Funny since you are yet to provide any evidence for your claims. I recall that an other Edo had debunked your earlier quotes of Preston Blair which you were using as "evidence". And then instead of admitting that you are full of shi.it, you just erazed your "evidence".
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Mancala: 10:42pm On Aug 09, 2019
TAO11:


I am glad that you are wiser to know that evidence supercedes word-of-mouth.

Let whoever think that the foregoing bronze casting represents other than messengers from Ife bringing the knowledge of metal casting to Benin kingdom produce their evidence and not just word of mouth or distractions to other issues.

Cc:
prolog3111

I noticed in the documentary you provided, the mention of a huge bronze bird on the roof of the Oba of Benins palace in a bronze sculpture. This is strikingly similar to the bird on the head of the horseman. Would you happen to know the significance of this bird?
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Nobody: 10:53pm On Aug 09, 2019
Mancala:


I noticed in the documentary you provided, the mention of a huge bronze bird on the roof of the Oba of Benins palace in a bronze sculpture. This is strikingly similar to the bird on the head of the horseman. Would you happen to know the significance of this bird?
you've got to be kidding me, look, I get that you are a Yoruba. But how logical is it for you to be asking a yoruba guy questions about Benin bronze while you could actually ask the museum or an actual Edo ? What is it with you people's constant quest for a Yoruba spin on Benin history?
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 10:57pm On Aug 09, 2019
prolog3111:


You apparently don't know what the word evidence means. But let us go into the video which you provided and the quote of preston Blair.

1) there is actually no proof in the video. If you thought the British accent of some of the people talking would impress me, then think again.

2) the video is heavilly doctored. It is a bunch of videos assembled together, thecdifferent sources are not clear, no are their motives and their paymasters.

3) Preston Blair didn't study Benin, she only studied yoruba art. All her sources are Yoruba.

It is amazing how desperate you are at claiming the heritage of an entirely different people ! Didn't your ancestors live anything behind ? You low self esteem bitch !

Your poor face-saving come-back is at best laughable. cheesy

Your first disgracefully poor excuse is that we can't accept one video made up of many videos. Oluwa oo!

Okay simply consider the one video (of the many videos) which relates to the current discussion. There you'd find the scholarly attestation.

What kind of lame excuse would inferiority complex not make you run to?

Oh I see, those British scholars are puppets of the Yorubas, hence the reason they connived with the Yorubas to marginalize you.

Inferiority complex is a bitch!


Anyway, there is no escaping for you even with this lame excuse. See why:

The British severely marginalized Bini kingdom in the year 1897.

The same British became the puppet of the Yorubas in 2019. [Acording to a renowned dumb "scholar" of Bini ancestry namely prolog3111].

Does that not tell our dumb "scholar" that the puppet of my puppet is my slave?

Are you not back to what you're running from even with dumb excuses?

Regarding your made-up statement that Suzanne Preston Blier ONLY studied Yoruba Art and not Bini Art:

Well, I have joy to tell you that she is a Havard Professor of African Art.

I wonder if Bini Art is among African Art. Is it?

See her details below:

https://scholar.harvard.edu/blier/biocv

Youre a renowned liar!

Don't forget to provide your evidence for your claim that the casting IS NOT of messengers from Ife bringing the knowledge of bronze casting to Benin kingdom.

1 Like

Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Nobody: 10:58pm On Aug 09, 2019
geosegun:


Stop calling Benin an empire. It is a younger and much more recent Kingdom compare to others and it owes her civilisation to that to Ife. So stop peddling lies all over the place. We know the truth.
prolog3111:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh2Tac1gNPU
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b77595185.r=Benin?rk=21459;2

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b7759521n.r=Benin?rk=21459;2

An other map of Benin made in the 17th century once again:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b530530714.r=Benin?rk=214593;2

An other map of Benin from the 17th century:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8595583b.r=Benin?rk=193134;0

This one date to the 19th century:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8469390z/f1.item
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Nobody: 11:03pm On Aug 09, 2019
TAO11:


Your poor face-saving come-back is at best laughable. cheesy

Your first disgracefully poor excuse is that we can't accept one video made up of many videos. Oluwa oo!

Okay simply consider the one video (of the many videos) which relates to the current discussion. There you'd find the scholarly attestation.

What kind of lame excuse would inferiority complex not make you run to?

Oh I see, those British scholars are puppets of the Yorubas, hence the reason they combined with the Binis to marginalize you.

Inferiority complex is a bitch!


Anyways, there us no escaping for you even with this lame excuse. See why:

The British severely marginalized Bini kingdom in the year 1897.

The same British became the puppet of the Yorubas in 2019. [Acording to a renowned dumb "scholar" of Bini ancestry namely prolog3111].

Does that not tell our dumb "scholar" that the puppet of my puppet is my slave?

Are you not back to what you're running from with dumb excuses?

Regarding your made-up statement that Suzanne Preston Blier ONLY studied Yoruba Art and not Bini Art:

Well, I have joy to tell you that she is a Havard Professor of African Art.

I wonder if Bini Art is among African Art. Is it?

See her details below:

https://scholar.harvard.edu/blier/biocv

I see having a British accent is synonymous to being a British scholar to you. Well I disagree on that.
Also it seems you are extremely dumb. If Preston Blair specializes on Yoruba art, she would still be referred to as African art professor. For example, I am a specialist in Geometry, yet I am not referred to as "specialist in geometry" instead I am referred to as mathematician eventhough I know nothing about Rieman's Zeta function or tropical geometry or probsbility theory...Besides she is not a proper historian, she deals with art, Yoruba art.
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 11:20pm On Aug 09, 2019
prolog3111:
I see having a British accent is synonymous to being a British scholar to you. Well I disagree on that.
Also it seems you are extremely dumb. If Preston Blair specializes on Yoruba art, she would still be referred to as African art professor. For example, I am a specialist in Geometry, yet I am not referred to as "specialist in geometry" instead I am referred to as mathematician eventhough I know nothing about Rieman's Zeta function or tropical geometry or probsbility theory...Besides she is not a proper historian, she deals with art, Yoruba art.

I guess the accent of the scholars in the video you shared is Edo accent.

Now, British scholars must have Edo accent, right? okay! grin

Show me the evidence for your claim that she "DID NOT study Benin Art", yet she is a Professor of African Art.

I'm sha waiting for the evidence for this new face-saving claim.


Don't forget to provide your evidence for your claim that the casting IS NOT of a messenger from Ife bringing the knowledge of bronze casting to Benin kingdom.
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Nobody: 11:33pm On Aug 09, 2019
TAO11:


I guess the accent of the scholars in the video you shared is Edo accent.

Now, British scholars must have Edo accent, right? okay! grin

Show me the evidence for your claim that she "DID NOT study Benin Art", yet she is a Professor of African Art.

I'm sha waiting for the evidence for this new face-saving claim.


Don't forget to provide your evidence for your claim that the casting IS NOT of a messenger from Ife bringing the knowledge of bronze casting to Benin kingdom.
Thanks for this comment, I believe every unsuspecting person who read this comment now understands how dumb you are and the low self esteem that drives you. Imagine a guy looking at my watch and telling me to prove to the police that I didn't take it from his home ? Or imagine a police man locking me up until I prove that I have never committed a crime. This is how dumb you are. Don't mention me anymore, I can't continue talking to dumb people.
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 11:37pm On Aug 09, 2019
prolog3111:
I see having a British accent is synonymous to being a British scholar to you. Well I disagree on that.
Also it seems you are extremely dumb. If Preston Blair specializes on Yoruba art, she would still be referred to as African art professor. For example, I am a specialist in Geometry, yet I am not referred to as "specialist in geometry" instead I am referred to as mathematician eventhough I know nothing about Rieman's Zeta function or tropical geometry or probsbility theory...Besides she is not a proper historian, she deals with art, Yoruba art.

She is a Professor of "African art and architecture in both the History of Art and Architecture and African and African American Studies Departments."

"A historian of African Art and architecture", and that's the specific topic here under discussion.

That's her specialization as a "historian".

Refer to the Havard link I shared with you for verification and for more details of her biography.




Please I'm waiting for your evidence that "she did not study Benin art"


I'm also waiting for you to provide evidence for your claim that the casting IS NOT of a messenger from Ife bringing the knowledge of bronze casting to Benin kingdom.
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by TAO11(f): 11:38pm On Aug 09, 2019
prolog3111:
Thanks for this comment, I believe every unsuspecting person who read this comment now understands how dumb you are and the low self esteem that drives you. Imagine a guy looking at my watch and telling me to prove to the police that I didn't take it from his home ? Or imagine a police man locking me up until I prove that I have never committed a crime. This is how dumb you are. Don't mention me anymore, I can't continue talking to dumb people.


No, I made my claim of what the art represents and I fulfilled my burden by providing incontrovertible evidence which you're still struggling to deny.

You, on the other had, not only asked for evidence (which was provided anyway), but you also DENIED my interpretation.


Your denying it is itself an active claim, and you should provide your evidence. cheesy


I know you hate to hear the statement:

"Provide your evidence".

It throws liars (including you) off!
Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by Mancala: 11:43pm On Aug 09, 2019
prolog3111:
you've got to be kidding me, look, I get that you are a Yoruba. But how logical is it for you to be asking a yoruba guy questions about Benin bronze while you could actually ask the museum or an actual Edo ? What is it with you people's constant quest for a Yoruba spin on Benin history?

Sir, this is a public forum and all are welcome to respond to any and every post. I state once again that I am here only to seek answers to observations that seemed out of place to me on a figure in the British museum. If you have answers to any of my questions, please feel free to post them. I will be most grateful for any knowledge you can impart and so would other readers of the discourse. My first question was seeking information on the origins of the cat whiskers like scarifications on the face of the sculpture and what they had to do with either Benin or Ife culture. Second, I am curious to know the significance of the bird atop the head of the horseman which is also found on the rooftop of a bronze sculpture of the Oba of Benins palace.
As a side note, I have no idea why you are so fixated on my ethnicity and why you make bold assertions about it, knowing absolutely nothing about me. I refuse to engage on that level as sufficient unto the day are the evils thereof!

2 Likes

Re: Benins Were The First Educated Nigerians. Dr Okafor by geosegun(m): 12:03am On Aug 10, 2019
prolog3111:


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b77595185.r=Benin?rk=21459;2

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b7759521n.r=Benin?rk=21459;2

An other map of Benin made in the 17th century once again:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b530530714.r=Benin?rk=214593;2

An other map of Benin from the 17th century:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8595583b.r=Benin?rk=193134;0

This one date to the 19th century:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8469390z/f1.item

Those early drawn maps are not to scale, bro. I am a Geologist, if you care to know and I understand a bit of cartography. Even maps made in the 60s are not accurate talkless of those of centuries ago. Stop deceiving yourself bro.

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