Chidorx60:
TAO11 I respect u for your vast knowledge in history and your diligence in proving the truth,but at times in doing that you still endulge in great falsification.


(1) Wait do you want to say that ewaure nogidiigans conquer of more that 200 towns was as a result of influence of the yorubas

(2) Do you now want to say that when Esigie,Ozoual, down to ovamrnwen controlled the trade of Akure,ijaw,idah(kogil) was as a result of help from the Yorubas,

(3) Benin kingdom saw Ife as a religious ally and relative and never as a head, a single regiment of Benin would have crushed Ife to dust,it was their ties that kept them alive.

(4) Edo conquered Lagos ,Infact go and argue with the Aleko of a Eko, I'm sure u know better than him on his own ancestry.

(5) Or that Edo was never once the greatest Empire in Black Africa.

[s]Infact kukuma say that the Yoruba's colonized Britain ,
Rubbish of the highest order.[/s]


(6) And if you must reply don't come and write nonsense epistles that people hardly read,just summarize and let's read your sense OK.

Thanks for appreciating my so-called "vast knowledge in history" and my "diligence".

But I would advice that you do not allow emotions get the better part of you, because I had known you to be someone who bows to facts.

Should I remind you that you failed to provide even one shred of evidence to substantiate even one of the quite many grandiose claims you've made for Benin kingdom? Please look into that.

Should I also remind you that for each claim I make I adduce a fair supporting evidence which you did not even bother to specifically engage?

If you really believe that I indulge in a so-called "great falsification", then prove it by engaging the specific evidences I have adduced. I challenge you!

Normally, I should have ignored your claims here and dismiss them as baseless because they are wishful and unsubstantiated. I would, anyway, say one or two things about them.

But I advice that you make it a habit to always substantiate all your claims going forward, so that we can have a more scholarly exchange.

(1) I am not sure what 200 towns you noted that the Binis conquered, neither do I remember saying, at anytime, that EVERYTHING the Binis achieved was through some direct help from the Yorubas.
Please clear these up for me.

(2) Where did you get all these false grandoise ideas from that certain kings of Benin kingdom controlled the trade of Akure?

It baffles me greatly whenever I notice how misinformation and distortions have become so preponderant and ingested that people submit them ignorantly and boldly.

This popular notion that Benin kingdom controlled the trade of certain Eastern Frontier Yoruba communities is false and must be corrected as a matter of urgency.

The historical reality which has been spinned and modified over time by some Binis is that one of the oldest and busiest trade routes in Yorubaland passed through the Eastern Frontier Yoruba communities.

This trade route carried commercial activities between all parts of Yorubaland, Benin, and the country of the Edo-related people such as the Akoko-Edo, Afenmai and Ishan, as well as some other neighbouring peoples.

A large body of Bini traders later came to be proactive, in seizing the business opportunities of the commercial activities fluorishing within the Yoruba interior, by immigrating and establishing "foreign" traders settlements within the Eastern Frontier Yoruba communities.

These Bini immigrant traders settlements have their Bini heads (known by the titles Olotu-Ekiran, or Olotu-Ado, or sometimes Balekale in larger settlements) through whom each Bini immigrant traders settlements transmit their tributes back home to their king --- the Oba of Benin.

These remittances back home to the Benin government from its trading subjects living far away from home in Yorubaland should not be conflated with a Benin control of Yoruba trade. No, it is a Benin control of Benin trade.

(3) You were either being merely ashamed or being outrightly dishonest when you wrote that Benin kingdom saw Ife as a religious ALLY and never as a head.

The incontrovertible historical fact (which no quantum of emotion can alter) remains that:

(i) The Ooni of Ife was NOT merely a religious ALLY to Benin kingdom (whatever that means); he was, in fact, an OVERLORD to whom Benin kingdom owed SPIRITUAL ALLEIGANCE.

Refer to: Attached screenshots below for details and references.

(ii) The Ooni of Ife was considered in Benin kingdom to be God Almighty in human flesh. Yes, Benin kingdom regarded the Ooni of Ife as "OGHENE".

Refer to: "Benin-Ife Connection (2004)" by Omo N'Oba Erediauwa.

(iii) The Ooni of Ife was SUZERAIN over Benin kingdom.

Refer to: Attached screenshots below for details and references.

Ile-Ife was clearly (from evidence) suzerain, imperial, and divine over Benin kingdom.


(4) Regarding Lagos Island, your claim of conquest is false and pseudo-historical, and I have once demonstrated that to you with evidence, and to which you had no counter-argument.

Moreover, no Aleko Eleko ever said, at anytime, that Lagos Island was conquered by the Binis.

Refer to the following link here for a refresher of my evidence-based argument showing that the relationship between Lagos Island and Benin kingdom was never one of a conquest:
https://www.nairaland.com/5333966/history-been-taken-us-benin#81142807


(5) Was Benin kingdom one of the most influential and pronounced kingdoms in the west coast of Africa (particularly the eastern portion of this west coast)?

The answer is a capital YES!

But was Benin kingdom, at any point in the course of history, the greatest kingdom or empire in black Africa?

The answer is a capital NO! Such a claim is the result of a crazy and outlandish exaggeration.

Provide your evidence if you insist on your position.


(6) I hope my reply here did not touch on any point which you didn't raise.

Moreover, I am glad to tell you that many people read my comments. I know this from their positive feedback which is often characterized by their mention that my comments is distinctive in that it is always backed up with authoritative references.

TAO11:


Regarding your first attached screenshot specifically, with which you also seem to want to promote the false notion that bronze/brass casting was not taught to the Binis by the Ifes (even when Bini traditions strongly insist on that when the Europeans inquired).


I like to enlighten you first that contrary to what the wordings in the body of this first attachment says, no historian of Ife and Benin Art has ever stated that the craft of casting was introduced to Benin by Ife in "the 14th century".

(i) Rather, experts of Ife and Benin Arts have stated clearly that the craft was introduced to Benin by Ife during the reign of Oba Oguola (1280 - 1295) --- that is, in the 13th century.

This foregoing is some indication that the content of this first attachment (especially this bit which tries to dispel an established historical fact which is corroborated by a strongly held body of Benin tradition) is quite dubious and unauthentic.

(ii) Another fact which establishes and confirms the dubiousness and unauthenticity of this first attachment is the fact that another copy of it exists with exactly same two embedded documents, exactly same signatories and signatures, exactly same dates, and exactly same locations. But with the crucial difference being that there is a significant difference between the main content/body of the one you've attached and the one I've attached below.

This is a clear and obvious evidence of some foul play, especially with the strange attempt to dispel the established historical fact of how the Binis were civilized into the craft of bronze/brass casting by the Ifes.


The historical fact thus remains (as has been shown earlier on the authority of The British Museum and from the words of Margaret Plass of the University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, and on the authority of William B. Fagg) that:

"... the early Oba Oguola --- supposed to have reigned about A.D. 1280 --- applied to his spiritual Overlord, the Ooni of Ife, for the services of a bronze founder to teach his people to make the memorial bronzes formerly imported from Ife, that they might be made in Benin."

Refer to: Margaret Plass, The Art of Benin: An Evaluation Based on Discussions with William Fagg, Deputy Keeper of Ethnography in the British Museum.

See here for the details: https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/the-art-of-benin/

You known people claim shit like the popular quote you post ....
That benin agreed to fact that beeds were introduced to edos by the yorubas from ife ...which i brought a counter claim against that it could that quote was a blackmail....

But i want you to prove me wrong with no just mere claims but fact that ife brought art to edo or we could create a newtopic for that if you insist...sir...

And again that saying the oba of benin burying thier predecessor head at ife would also be adressed too but not now “urhun oba ado" the yorubas happened to call the burial site..makes me wonder that only the ekiti nd ondo hapoen to call edo (ado) the only time ife and benin had contact was during when edo was known as igodomigo around 900ad after oduduwa hapoen to have left to ife so how come ife get to know us as edo ewuare gave the name "edo"

So many questions for you if you decide to answer me with mere statement and links not fact i will simply not go beyond here ....

gregyboy:



[s]You known people claim shit like the popular quote you post ....[/s]

That benin agreed to fact that beeds were introduced to edos by the yorubas from ife ... which i brought a counter claim against [s]that it could that quote was a blackmail....[/s]

But i want you to prove me wrong with no just mere claims but fact that ife brought art to Edo or we could create a newtopic for that if you insist...sir...


And again that saying the oba of benin burying thier predecessor head at ife would also be adressed too but not now “urhun oba ado" the yorubas happened to call the burial site..makes me wonder that only the ekiti nd ondo hapoen to call edo (ado) [s]the only time ife and benin had contact was during when edo was known as igodomigo around 900ad[/s] after oduduwa hapoen to have left to ife so how come ife get to know us as Edo[/s] ewuare gave the name "edo"

[s]So, many questions for you if you decide to answer me with mere statement and links not fact i will simply not go beyond here ....[/s]

FACT: The art and craft of bronze/brass casting was introduced to Benin kingdom from Ife.

Is this my personal claim which I simply made up?

No, this is the unanimous submission of the experts, scholars, and academia who have studied the History of Ife and Benin Arts almost all their lives.

Moreover, in response to the repeated inquiry from the first Europeans about the source of the casting techniques of the Binis, the Binis insisted, based on their own tradition, that it was taught to them by casters from the sacred city of Ife.

I have provided you with these unanimous scholarly submission numerous times in the words of Margaret Plass, William B. Fagg, and The British Museum.

Take it up with these expert sources if you truly believe that they've made those scholarly submissions because they are all Yoruba women, men, and organizations.

Moreover, I have already advised that you go to bronze casters street there in Benin to inquire about Igueigha --- the god (stationed at Chief Ine's place) whom the Binis worshiped till date, and who was said to have come from Ife when he led the delegation of bronze casters to Benin to civilize them into the science and art of casting.

Are you scared to go make inquiry?

And I am yet to see you put forward any self-consistent contrary expert submission.


Regarding the burial of Benin-Obas' exhumed heads at "Oru Oba Ado" site in Ile-Ife, I have challenged you severally to refute this historical fact.

This fact, as I have shown with evidence many weeks ago, was admitted by Chief J. U. Egharevba; was acknowledged by Professor R. E. Bradbury based on his discussions with "the Edos"; and was confirmed by the archaeological find of Frank Willett during his 1961-2 excavation of Orun Oba Ado site.

Moreover, where did you get the idea from that the name "Ado" (for Benin) is a Yoruba mispronunciation of "Edo"? Who said that?

Also, from where did you get the idea that it was ONLY the Ekitis and the Ondos who call Benin "Ado"?

Provide your evidence for these two claims, otherwise I may be forced to conclude that these are yet some other examples of your bold lies.


Anyways, to expose your bold lies as I am used to doing, consider the following testimony of Professor Isidore Okpewho where he alluded to some details of the Benin-Ijo connection in his "Once Upon a Kingdom: Myth, Hegemony, and Identity":

" To be sure, Benin continues to be evoked as a large mythical setting for Ijo stories. In his introductory essay to The Ozidi Saga, Clark-Bekederemo makes the following observation on the attitude of the various narrators he has recorded to the setting of the story:

In the Okabu text the stress is on Orua, or Oruabou, that is, the city seen as a state set in some remote time and place, although within the present boundaries of Tarakiri Clan. Both Afoluwa and Erivini make no such insistence on the Ijo setting of the story, being content to use Ado, the other name for Benin City, the conventional setting for Ijo tales and fables."

Refer to: Isidore Okpewho, "Once Upon a Kingdom: Myth, Hegemony, and Identity", 1998, p. 19.


From the foregoing, it becomes clear, therefore, that the principal city in Igodomigodo land was also known as "Ado" even by the Edos themselves, not only at Ile-Ife.

samuk:


Earlier Itsekiris nobility that were exposed to western education were all Benin princes. The entire Itsekiris nobility including the monarch are all Benin descendants.

Don't talk like a child. History only said Ginuwa and some slaves came over to Warri area and Itsekiris on ground made him their king. The Olu Atuwatse was the son of one of our kings not a Bini person like Ginuwa. Don't twist and distort history to prove your point.

DonCandido:


The British monarchy is of German origin, the British Royal House is British and their subjects are Britons.

The first Nigerian ethnic group to be exposed to Western Education are the Itshekiris. A Yoruboid group.

The good doctor is wrong in his conclusion.

The tribe isn't spelt as pronounced. It's spelt Itsékiri. There's no 'h'

A BINI MAN WAS THE FIRST NIGERIAN GRADUATE Let us go further; who was the first known Nigerian graduate? As this issue has generated so much controversy, it is important that I deal with it comprehensively and provide a clear evidence to substantiate my research. Readers, again kindly google the name: Olu Atuwatse (Dom Domingo). Olu Atuwatse was the crown prince of the Bini Empire who was sent to Portugal in 1601 for advanced studies by his father, the reigning Oba. He graduated from the University of Coimbra in 1611. He is the first person to obtain a European university degree. He later married the daughter of a Portuguese noble, Dona Feirs. Their son Antonio Domingo referred to in Benin History as the Golden Skinned king, succeeded him to the throne in 1643. Antonio Domingo, a Christian who wanted to spread Christianity throughout the Empire wrote the Pope in 1652 asking for Missionary assistance. This is the oldest letter written in Nigeria. I think this lays to rest which ethnic national produced the first educated Nigerians. If required, I would provide other historical research to substantiate my position further. I ask my Yoruba brothers to provide the same. -" - details

bacie:

A BINI MAN WAS THE FIRST NIGERIAN GRADUATE
Let us go further; who was the first known Nigerian
graduate? As this issue has generated so much
controversy, it is important that I deal with it
comprehensively and provide a clear evidence to
substantiate my research. Readers, again kindly google
the name: Olu Atuwatse (Dom Domingo). Olu Atuwatse
was the crown prince of the Bini Empire who was sent to
Portugal in 1601 for advanced studies by his father, the
reigning Oba. He graduated from the University of
Coimbra in 1611. He is the first person to obtain a
European university degree. He later married the
daughter of a Portuguese noble, Dona Feirs. Their son
Antonio Domingo referred to in Benin History as the
Golden Skinned king, succeeded him to the throne in
1643.
Antonio Domingo, a Christian who wanted to spread
Christianity throughout the Empire wrote the Pope in
1652 asking for Missionary assistance. This is the oldest
letter written in Nigeria. I think this lays to rest which
ethnic national produced the first educated
Nigerians. If required, I would provide other historical
research to substantiate my position further. I ask my
Yoruba brothers to provide the same. -" - details

Yes, however that name is a Yoruba name. Which brings to conclusion that the Royal stool in Benin is pure Yoruba by blood and in DNA. Hence the first to be educated. No wonder the Yorubas penchant and crave for education no be here. It's in the DNA; @greyboy come and proof me wrong. All your falsification have been laid bare, here.

TAO11:


FACT: The art and craft of bronze/brass casting was introduced to Benin kingdom from Ife.

Is this my personal claim which I simply made up?

No, this is the unanimous submission of the experts, scholars, and academia who have studied the History of Ife and Benin Arts almost all their lives.

Moreover, in response to the repeated inquiry from the first Europeans about the source of the casting techniques of the Binis, the Binis insisted, based on their own tradition, that it was taught to them by casters from the sacred city of Ife.

I have provided you with these unanimous scholarly submission numerous times in the words of Margaret Plass, William B. Fagg, and The British Museum.

Take it up with these expert sources if you truly believe that they've made those scholarly submissions because they are all Yoruba women, men, and organizations.

Moreover, I have already advised that you go to bronze casters street there in Benin to inquire about Igueigha --- the god (stationed at Chief Ine's place) whom the Binis worshiped till date, and who was said to have come from Ife when he led the delegation of bronze casters to Benin to civilize them into the science and art of casting.

Are you scared to go make inquiry?

And I am yet to see you put forward any self-consistent contrary expert submission.


Regarding the burial of Benin-Obas' exhumed heads at "Oru Oba Ado" site in Ile-Ife, I have challenged you severally to refute this historical fact.

This fact, as I have shown with evidence many weeks ago, was admitted by Chief J. U. Egharevba; was acknowledged by Professor R. E. Bradbury based on his discussions with "the Edos"; and was confirmed by the archaeological find of Frank Willett during his 1961-2 excavation of Orun Oba Ado site.

Moreover, where did you get the idea from that the name "Ado" (for Benin) is a Yoruba mispronunciation of "Edo"? Who said that?

Also, from where did you get the idea that it was ONLY the Ekitis and the Ondos who call Benin "Ado"?

Provide your evidence for these two claims, otherwise I may be forced to conclude that these are yet some other examples of your bold lies.


Anyways, to expose your bold lies as I am used to doing, consider the following testimony of Professor Isidore Okpewho where he alluded to some details of the Benin-Ijo connection in his "Once Upon a Kingdom: Myth, Hegemony, and Identity":

" To be sure, Benin continues to be evoked as a large mythical setting for Ijo stories. In his introductory essay to The Ozidi Saga, Clark-Bekederemo makes the following observation on the attitude of the various narrators he has recorded to the setting of the story:

In the Okabu text the stress is on Orua, or Oruabou, that is, the city seen as a state set in some remote time and place, although within the present boundaries of Tarakiri Clan. Both Afoluwa and Erivini make no such insistence on the Ijo setting of the story, being content to use Ado, the former name of Benin City, the conventional setting for Ijo tales and fables."

Refer to: Isidore Okpewho, "Once Upon a Kingdom: Myth, Hegemony, and Identity", 1998, p. 19.


From the foregoing, it becomes clear, therefore, that the principal city of Ubinu land used to be known as "Ado" even at home, not only at Ile-Ife.

I would stop answering soon you keep posting claim mere claims fable's of lies then you keep bringing reference of mere claims ....

If it was true the bini claimed this artwork was from ife how come.there is a counter claim that says otherwise from edo website that should make you review the statment of the earlier quotation .....i told you to give me factual proves
Even with older sculpture works as proves but no you insist on giving mere claims and i don't buy to that ...mere claims with foreign reference works are disproved everyday when needs to disprove existing knowledge arises comes

I can also claim ife works were benin works of art and go on net and make several claims to it and even edit refernce to it ...

Yoruba should keep thier mouth shut when they lay claims to anything because thier history was never documented in any form ...going through the past oni of ife before the arrival of benin you would see that they lacked date and time of thier reign thier kings the yoruba history is full of claims
the artworks of ife we cant even trace to the people that made it at ife ....

No sign that this artworks where made in ife but you could still trace benin art works to igun
There is a research am currently doing to trace where ife art work came from either benin republic or from bini edo state....

You cant claim ife introduce art works to bini when the oldest art works of ife predate 14c just as the edo art works of sculptures that have benn found

Please this may be the last mention i will give you since you rather come with claims and not fact ....and yes the works you posted were referenced by white renowed scholar( does that make them correct) yes or no ?.
even some of this white scholars disproved the fact that benin art works were introduced by ife to bini ....the two art works are very distinct

The ife art works were naturalistic you will feel it was made on the face of the people of those sculpture but the benin art is less of it but of historical and predated more in the 15c 18c when the empire grew

TAO11:


Thanks for appreciating my so-called "vast knowledge of history" and my "diligence".

But I would advice that you do not allow emotions get the better part of you, because I had known you to be someone who bow to facts.

Should I remind you that you failed to provide even one shred of evidence to substantiate even one of the grandiose claims you've made for Benin kingdom? Please look into that.

Should I also remind you that for each claim I make I adduce a fair supporting evidence which you did not even bother to specifically engage?

If you really believe that I indulge in a so-called "great falsification", then prove it by engaging the specific evidences I have adduced. I challenge you!

Normally, I should have ignored your claims here and dismiss them as baseless because they are wishful and unsubstantiated. I would, anyway, say one or two things about them.

But I advice that you make it a habit to substantiate all your claims going forward, so that we can have a more scholarly exchange.

(1) I am not sure what 200 towns you noted that the Binis conquered, neither do I remember saying, at anytime, that EVERYTHING the Binis achieved was through some direct help from the Yorubas.
Please clear these up for me.

(2) Where did you get all these false grandoise ideas from that certain kings of Benin kingdom controlled the trade of Akure?

It baffles me greatly whenever I notice how misinformation and distortions have become so preponderant and ingested that people submit them ignorantly and boldly.

This popular notion that Benin kingdom controlled the trade of certain Eastern Frontier Yoruba communities is false and must be corrected as a matter of urgency.

The historical reality which has been spinned and modified over time by some Binis is that one of the oldest and busiest trade routes in Yorubaland passed through the Eastern Frontier Yoruba communities.

This trade route carried commercial activities between all parts of Yorubaland, Benin, and the country of the Edo-related people such as the Akoko-Edo, Afenmai and Ishan, as well as some other neighbouring peoples.

A large body of Bini traders later came to be proactive, in seizing the business opportunities of the commercial activities fluorishing within the Yoruba interior, by immigrating and establishing "foreign" traders settlements within the Eastern Frontier Yoruba communities.

These Bini immigrant traders settlements have their Bini heads (known by the titles Olotu-Ekiran, or Olotu-Ado, or sometimes Balekale in larger settlements) through whom each Bini immigrant traders settlements transmit their tributes back home to their king --- the Oba of Benin.

These remittances back home to the Benin government from its trading subjects living far away from home in Yorubaland should not be conflated with a Benin control of Yoruba trade. No, it is a Benin control of Benin trade.

(3) You were either being merely ashamed or being outrightly dishonest when you wrote that Benin kingdom saw Ife as a religious ALLY and never as a head.

The incontrovertible historical fact (which no quantum of emotion can alter) remains that:

(i) The Ooni of Ife was NOT merely a religious ALLY to Benin kingdom (whatever that means); he was, in fact, an OVERLORD to whom Benin kingdom owed SPIRITUAL ALLEIGANCE.

Refer to: Attached screenshots below for details and references.

(ii) The Ooni of Ife was considered in Benin kingdom to be God Almighty in human flesh. Yes, Benin kingdom regarded the Ooni of Ife as "OGHENE".

Refer to: "Benin-Ife Connection (2004)" by Omo N'Oba Erediauwa.

(iii) The Ooni of Ife was SUZERAIN over Benin kingdom.

Refer to: Attached screenshots below for details and references.

Ile-Ife was clearly (from evidence) suzerain and imperial over Benin kingdom.


(4) Regarding Lagos Island, your claim of conquest is false and pseudo-historical, and I have once demonstrated that to you with evidence, and to which you had no counter-argument.

Moreover, no Aleko Eleko ever said, at anytime, that Lagos Island was conquered by the Binis.

Refer to the following link here for a refresher of my evidence-based argument showing that the relationship between Lagos Island and Benin kingdom was never one of a conquest:
https://www.nairaland.com/5333966/history-been-taken-us-benin#81142807


(5) Was Benin kingdom one of the most influential and pronounced kingdoms in the west coast of Africa (particularly the eastern portion of this west coast)?

The answer is a capital YES!

But was Benin kingdom, at any point in the course of history, the greatest kingdom or empire in the whole of black Africa?

The answer is a capital NO! Such a claim is the result of a crazy and outlandish exaggeration.

Provide your evidence if you insist on your position.


(6) I hope my reply here did not touch on any point which you didn't raise.

Moreover, I am glad to tell you that many people read my comments. I know this from their positive feedback which is often characterized by their mention that my comments is distinctive in that it is always backed up with authoritative references.

Please post the links to were you got those reference from including that of the sincreen shot oghene” i guess i have disproved such nams never occured in history

In benin we dont know oghene ...

Please post links to everything you quoted there

Datazone:

The tribe isn't spelt as pronounced. It's spelt Itsékiri. There's no 'h'

Thanks for the correction but I wrote in English. The suggested vowel is NOT part of English language.

Hope you are not asking me to learn the Ishekiri vowels before commenting on the tribe?

DonCandido:


Thanks for the correction but I wrote in English. The suggested vowel is NOT part of English language.

Hope you are not asking me to learn the Ishekiri vowels before commenting on the tribe?

You can write it as Itsekiri. You need not write the é sound. Stop trying to be smart with me. Thanks

gregyboy:




Please post the links to were you got those reference from including that of the sincreen shot oghene” i guess i have disproved such nams never occured in history

In benin we dont know oghene ...

Please post links to everything you quoted there

Regarding links to my screenshot references here, I am not sure why you once insisted, on one hand, that links amount to nothing; but you now, on another hand, appear to be demanding links as the be all and end all.

No, you're wrong in both instances even with your contradiction. Links are not unimportant if the statements they go to are authoritative. Also, links are just one alternative to providing references, there are other alternatives.

So, as regards the historical facts that the Ooni of was suzerain over Benin kingdom, and that Benin kingdom owed him spiritual alleigance; the relevant questions you should be considering are as follows:

(i) Did I really quote the actual words of the scholars?

And the answer is: Yes!

(ii) Did I provide a detailed referencing (including authors' name, work title, year of publication, and page number) as to how anyone may verify those scholarly statements?

And the answer again is: Yes!

In the light of the foregoing, I advice then that you get your lazy ass to work and find the books yourself, rather than shirking and asking others to find them for you.

And regarding the word "Oghene" as used by the Binis in reference to the Ooni, I am very disappointed in you for considering the late Omo N'Oba N'Edo Uku Akpolokpolo Erediauwa I as a bastard because he admitted this fact in his "The Benin-Ife Connection (2004)".

Or did you (as usual) not bother to check the work?

Datazone:

You can write it as Itsekiri. You need not write the é sound. Stop trying to be smart with me. Thanks

I have subtly tried to point out to you how RIDICULOUS your recourse to SEMANTICS on an issue which has now become CLEARER you know silch about.

Please cease and desist from patronising me with such pendantic nonsense at once!

Kindly seek a CLEARER understanding of the term, its etymology, written form and usage before displaying your idiocy online.

"Stop trying to be smart with me"!!!

WHO GIVES A RATS ARSE WHO YOU ARE!!!

WHAT is YOU?

BIKO, TAKE A HIKE FROM MY MENTIONS!

ITK.

TAO11:


Regarding links to my screenshot references here, I am not sure why you once insisted, on one hand, that links amount to nothing; but you now, on another hand, appear to be demanding links as the be all and end all.

No, you're wrong in both instances even with your contradiction. Links are not unimportant if the statements they go to are authoritative. Also, links are just one alternative to providing references, there are other alternatives.

So, as regards the historical facts that the Ooni of was suzerain over Benin kingdom, and that Benin kingdom owed him spiritual alleigance; the relevant questions you should be considering are as follows:

(i) Did I really quote the actual words of the scholars?

And the answer is: Yes!

(ii) Did I provide a detailed referencing (including authors' name, work title, year of publication, and page number) as to how anyone may verify those scholarly statements?

And the answer again is: Yes!

In the light of the foregoing, I advice then that you get your lazy ass to work and find the books yourself, rather than shirking and asking others to find them for you.

And regarding the word "Oghene" as used by the Binis in reference to the Ooni, I am very disappointed in you for considering the late Omo N'Oba N'Edo Uku Akpolokpolo Erediauwa I as a bastard because he admiting this fact in his "The Benin-Ife Connection (2004)".

Or did you (as usual) not bother to check the work?

Can you post the page if you have read the book...hmmm a joker ...i used to take you serious at the beginning but just as your other brothers you spill claims with no fact....

I advice you you shouldnt argue for the yorubas please stop it your tribe laxk anyform of documentation of history ....yes it is sad ..but it is true.. Take a chill as for me i will never take you serious again

gregyboy:



[s]I would stop answering soon you keep posting claim mere claims fable's of lies then you keep bringing reference of mere claims ....

If it was true the bini claimed this artwork was from ife how come.there is a counter claim that says otherwise from edo website that should make you review the statment of the earlier quotation .....i told you to give me factual proves
Even with older sculpture works as proves but no you insist on giving mere claims and i don't buy to that ...mere claims with foreign reference works are disproved everyday when needs to disprove existing knowledge arises comes

I can also claim ife works were benin works of art and go on net and make several claims to it and even edit refernce to it ...

Yoruba should keep thier mouth shut when they lay claims to anything because thier history was never documented in any form ...going through the past oni of ife before the arrival of benin you would see that they lacked date and time of thier reign thier kings the yoruba history is full of claims
the artworks of ife we cant even trace to the people that made it at ife ....

No sign that this artworks where made in ife but you could still trace benin art works to igun
There is a research am currently doing to trace where ife art work came from either benin republic or from bini edo state....

You cant claim ife introduce art works to bini when the oldest art works of ife predate 14c just as the edo art works of sculptures that have benn found

Please this may be the last mention i will give you since you rather come with claims and not fact ....and yes the works you posted were referenced by white renowed scholar( does that make them correct) yes or no ?.
even some of this white scholars disproved the fact that benin art works were introduced by ife to bini ....the two art works are very distinct

The ife art works were naturalistic you will feel it was made on the face of the people of those sculpture but the benin art is less of it but of historical and predated more in the 15c 18c when the empire grew[/s]

If I have achieved anything at all since I began educating you, then it is that I was able to demonstrate the extent of your dumbness and the thickness of your ignorance.

But to avoid relenting from educating you even more, I would add the following words:

Statements attributable to you and you alone (among other laypersons and non-authoritative sources like yourself) are nothing more than mere made-up claims.

On the other hand, statements attributable unanimously to the world's leading experts, scholars, and academics in the relevant field of inquiry is not a mere claim but an incontrovertible factual submission.

Did you get that?

Furthermore, the fact that the Binis of old (who insisted to the Europeans that their tradition told them that casting knowledge was brought to them by casters from Ife) did not have to deal with inferiority complex does not guarantee that every Bini person of present time (like yourself and your so-called "edo website" ) would also not have to.

In fact, the fact that you've consistently tried without let to rubbish the strong body of Benin traditions on beads' use and on sculpture casting (although only to repeatedly fail) is itself a strong evidence of the fact that you've been tightly gripped and badly drenched by inferiority complex.

Moreover, you keep lying that the Yorubas never documented their own history but that the Binis did.

Now, I strongly suspect that you're a mythomaniac because I have refuted and shamed you on this sometimes before when I noted that the earliest indigenous documentation of anything about about Benin history, culture, and civilization wasn't penned down until in the year 1933.

While on the other hand, the Yorubas have been documenting their own history since the 1800s, first by Samuel Ajayi Crowther, and then by Sir Moses Lijadu, and later by Samuel Johnson.

Your inferiority complex which causes you to lie unrepentantly and unrelentingly is obviously of an unimaginably high magnitude.

Lastly, the Ife Art works (which have been said, for example by Frank Willett to be outstanding and incomparable to any other "negro" Art) predates the Benin Art works by centuries. Let me know if you have any contention on this.

gregyboy:


Can you post the page if you have read the book...hmmm a joker ...i used to take you serious at the beginning but just as your other brothers you spill claims with no fact....

I advice you you shouldnt argue for the yorubas please stop it your tribe laxk anyform of documentation of history ....yes it is sad ..but it is true.. Take a chill as for me i will never take you serious again

Stop begging me to work for you.

Get your lazy ass to work using the detailed references I have already provided.

The internet with its vast online resources is waiting for you to get some education.

Take the step, don't shirk, be bold.

TAO11:


Stop begging me to work for you.

Get your lazy ass to work using the detailed references I have already provided.

The internet with its vast online resources is waiting for you to get some education.

Take the step, don't shirk, be bold.

I think people viewing this post alread saw my counter claims to this particular issue were i had a screenshot of wikepedia site even posted the links for everyone to see your deception
Never mind our arguments ends here

TAO11:


If I have achieved anything at all since I began educating you, then it is that I was able to demonstrate the extent of your dumbness and the thickness of your ignorance.

But to avoid relenting from educating you even more, I would add the following words:

Statements attributable to you and you alone (among other laypersons and non-authoritative sources like yourself) are nothing more than mere made-up claims.

On the other hand, statements attributable unanimously to the world's leading experts, scholars, and academics in the relevant field of inquiry is not a mere claim but an incontrovertible factual submission.

Did you get that?

Furthermore, the fact that the Binis of old (who insisted to the Europeans that their tradition told them that casting knowledge was brought to them by casters from Ife) did not have to deal with inferiority complex does not guarantee that every Bini person of present time (like yourself and your so-called "edo website" ) would also not have to.

In fact, the fact that you've consistently tried without let to rubbish the strong body of Benin traditions on beads' use and on sculpture casting (although only to repeatedly fail) is itself a strong evidence of the fact that you've been tightly gripped and badly drenched by inferiority complex.

Moreover, you keep lying that the Yorubas never documented their own history but that the Binis did.

Now, I strongly suspect that you're a mythomaniac because I have refuted and shamed you on this sometimes before when I noted that the earliest indigenous documentation of anything about about history, culture, and civilization wasn't penned down until in the year 1933.

While on the other hand, the Yorubas have been documenting their own history since the 1800s, first by Samuel Ajayi Crowther, and then by Sir Moses Lijadu, and later by Samuel Johnson.

Your inferiority complex which causes you to lie unrepentantly and unrelentingly is obviously of an unimaginably high magnitude.

Lastly, the Ife Art works (which have been said, for example by Frank Willett to be outstanding and incomparable to any other "negro" Art) predates the Benin Art works by centuries. Let me know if you have any intention on this.

Lol he says yorubas documented at 1800s haha a tribe more than 50 million is this what you guys could bring to debate the binis

Northerners had written document since 18c the binis didnt have wriiteen document but they had artworks of documentation since 12c ....all the the kings in benin where dated when they died ....

We cant even find the centre of ife art works in ife but just come to benin the grid system the Portuguese documented can still be found till now .....
Just they there they sleep ontop lies

If i was you i will quit arguing for the yorubas because all thier histories are claims no documentation for back up if ife art works wasn't found in the late 20c no one would have known they did art works .....

The benin writters like egharrvba were quick to judge when he saw ife art works dated earlier than the benin art work little did he know that older artworks in benins will be found

gregyboy:



I think people viewing this post alread saw my counter claims to this particular issue were i had a screenshot of wikepedia site even posted the links for everyone to see your deception
Never mind our arguments ends here

And then, as usual, you finally ran away after running out of lies to tell.

Moreover, there was never a time in the course of all my exchange with you where you've ever uttered even one word (falsehood or truth) in reply to the historical fact that the Ooni of Ife was suzerain, imperial, and divine over Benin kingdom.

The most you did on this specific issue was your complain that I should not simply provide you with the detailed references to the quoted scholarly submissions; but that I should also help you with finding the books, perhaps because you are too lazy, broke, or technically challenged to find the books yourself.

So, your spin that you attached a Wikipedia screenshot (smh) and "links" (what link?) addressing this issue is yet another example of your white lies.

Your Wikipedia screenshot simply mentioned that bronze/brass casting in Benin kingdom can be traced to the 13th century. And this, as I have shown, agrees with the Benin tradition and historical fact that bronze/brass casting was introduced into Benin kingdom from Ife during the reign of Oba Oguola of Benin kingdom (1280 - 1295).

In sum, no fictitious people (not even your fellow Binis) viewing this saw you post anything (falsehood or truth) in response to the historical fact that the Ooni of Ife was suzerain, imperial, and divine over Benin kingdom.

Deal with the detailed references to the quotes as I have provided them, and stop chickening out. Or have you already done so?

DonCandido:


I have subtly tried to point out to you how RIDICULOUS your recourse to SEMANTICS on an issue which has now become CLEARER you know silch about.

Please cease and desist from patronising me with such pendantic nonsense at once!

Kindly seek a CLEARER understanding of the term, its etymology, written form and usage before displaying your idiocy online.

"Stop trying to be smart with me"!!!

WHO GIVES A RATS ARSE WHO YOU ARE!!!

WHAT is YOU?

BIKO, TAKE A HIKE FROM MY MENTIONS!

ITK.

Shut up your dirty mouth. Yoruba is actually spelt Yóruba, yet we ignore the ó and write it properly. When it comes to another tribe you wanna play secondary school logic. With all your needless mix of vocabulary you still didn't make sense.

gregyboy:



(1) Lol he says yorubas documented at 1800s haha a tribe more than 50 million is this what you guys could bring to debate the binis

(2) Northerners had written document since 18c the binis didnt have wriiteen document but they had artworks of documentation since 12c ....all the the kings in benin where dated when they died ....

(3) We cant even find the centre of ife art works in ife but just come to benin the grid system the Portuguese documented can still be found till now .....
Just they there they sleep ontop lies

(4) If i was you i will quit arguing for the yorubas because all thier histories are claims no documentation for back up if ife art works wasn't found in the late 20c no one would have known they did art works .....

(5) The benin writters like egharrvba were quick to judge when he saw ife art works dated earlier than the benin art work little did he know that older artworks in benins will be found.

I advice that you submit yourself to the nearest psychiatric hospital and be chained down in one of their wards before you finally loose your mind completely, because you already lie uncontrollably.

(1) You had lied that the Binis documented their history in writing before the Yorubas did.

I shamed you with facts by showing that the Binis earliest written account of their own history, language, culture, or even civilization wasn't until the year 1933, while the Yorubas had theirs dating to the 1800s.

Yet in your deluded twisted tiny mind, the 1900s is earlier than the 1800s. Smdh!


(2) And somehow miraculously the debate had to be against the Northerners and no longer against the Binis. I really hope that I am not responsible for what you're currently going through.

Moreover, I'm not sure how low you can't go just to deceive your fellow unsuspecting gullible Binis into thinking that some Benin artworks date to the 12th century (i.e., the 1100s).

For the record, no Benin artwork is known to date to the 12th century. I challenge you to substantiate your lie.

You really need to stop lying to make Benin appear great. It shatters your ego and self-esteem even more, despite the fact that you think it will help it.


(3) Who are the "we" who can't find the center of Ife artworks??

I'm quite sure that here you're referring to yourself among other roaming and fleeing scavenging lun@tics like your poor sorry self.

(4) And where did you get the idea from that it was not until when archaeological excavations were conducted in Ife that it came to be known that the ancient Ifes had artworks??

Your problem is that you know only very little (if you know at all) and for that reason you are always quick to conclude that there is only very little to know.

To educate you on this, as I am always used to doing:

The first archaeological excavation for artworks in Ife was conducted in the year 1910 by the lead archaeologist Leo Frobenius who, before setting out at all for Africa in 1910, had learnt (and was excited) about a superb bronze head known as the Olokun Head.

He had learnt that this superb bronze head was in possession of the Yoruba people of Ife in south western Nigeria, and the head was shown to him when he arrived at Ife.

Also, read up on the History of the Obalufon Mask and the Lajuwa Head which have also being in possession of the kings of Ife since the respective times of their manufacture.


(5) On this last point, it has become clear enough that this gregyboy is officially sick. He lies without remourse.

What Benin artwork was older than the earliest dated Ife artworks, when in fact the oldest known Benin artworks (some one, two or three or thereabout of them) date to the 1300s while relatively many Ife artworks date to the 1200s and others to centuries earlier??

How ever it may swing in the future, no Benin artwork may ever be found to predate the 1200s (or even date to the 1200s) because Oguola, whose reign it was during when the craft was introduced to Benin from Ife, reigned in the late 1200s (i.e. 1280-1295).

Datazone:

Shut up your dirty mouth. Yoruba is actually spelt Yóruba, yet we ignore the ó and write it properly. When it comes to another tribe you wanna play secondary school logic. With all your needless mix of vocabulary you still didn't make sense.

With your comments above as premises, I have reached a DETERMINATION that YOU are a raving LUN@TIC!

Good grief! I have been exchanging words with
a m@d Nlander!!!

These bini people really looking for enemies up and down and they just might get one out of the Yoruba if they continue with this attitude and will need to be taught a lesson so they can shut up. Tiny insignificant people really becoming pests to everyone

DonCandido:


With your comments above as premises, I have reached a DETERMINATION that YOU are a raving LUN@TIC!

Good grief! I have been exchanging words with
a m@d Nlander!!!

If truly you've been exchanging words with one, is it safe to say you were mad all along?

TAO11:


I advice that you submit yourself to the nearest psychiatric hospital and be chained down in one of their wards before you finally loose your mind completely, because you already lie uncontrollably.

(1) You had lied that the Binis documented their history in writing before the Yorubas did.

I shamed you with facts by showing that the Binis earliest written account of their own history, language, culture, or even civilization wasn't until the year 1933, while the Yorubas had theirs dating to the 1800s.

Yet in your deluded twisted tiny mind, the 1900s is earlier than the 1800s. Smdh!


(2) And somehow miraculously the debate had to be against the Northerners and no longer against the Binis. I really hope that I am not responsible for what you're currently going through.

Moreover, I'm not sure how low you can't go just to deceive your fellow unsuspecting gullible Binis into thinking that some Benin artworks date to the 12th century (i.e., the 1100s).

For the record, no Benin artwork is known to date to the 12th century. I challenge you to substantiate your lie.

You really need to stop lying to make Benin appear great. It shatters your ego and self-esteem even more, despite the fact that you think it will help it.


(3) Who are the "we" who can't find the center of Ife artworks??

I'm quite sure that here you're referring to yourself among other roaming and fleeing scavenging lun@tics like your poor sorry self.

(4) And where did you get the idea from that it was not until when archaeological excavations were conducted in Ife that it came to be known that the ancient Ifes had artworks??

Your problem is that you know only very little (if you know at all) and for that reason you are always quick to conclude that there is only very little to know.

To educate you on this, as I am always used to doing:

The first archaeological excavation for artworks in Ife was conducted in the year 1910 by the lead archaeologist Leo Frobenius who, before setting out at all for Africa, had learnt (and was excited) about a superb bronze head known as the Olokun Head.

He had learnt that this superb bronze head was in possession of the Yoruba people of Ife in south western Nigeria, and the head was shown to him when he arrived at Ife.

Also, read up on the History of the Obalufon Mask and the Lajuwa Head which have also being in possession of the kings of Ife since the respective times of their manufacture.


(5) On this last point, it has become clear enough that this gregyboy is officially sick. He lies without remourse.

What Benin artwork was older than the earliest dated Ife artworks, when in fact the oldest known Benin artworks (some one, two or three or thereabout of them) date to the 1300s while relatively many Ife artworks date to the 1200s and others to centuries earlier??

How ever it may swing in the future, no Benin artwork may ever be found to predate the 1200s (or even date to the 1200s) because Oguola, whose reign it was during when the craft was introduced to Benin from Ife, reigned in the late 1200s (i.e. 1280-1295).

Post the art works of ife art with proves that date at the 12c please not with mere claims post links to were you got you findings from including references and even approved stamp if any....

If you come with mere write up full of claims just know your people will be ashamed of you....


Can you come with the links to the answered question on no4

Again ife has no centre of its artwork origination
The sculpturist who made the ife art qorks cant be traced in ife no evidence that the ife art works were made in ife ....
If your going to debate on this.particular question please i neeed more than interment prove to make it aimpler internet proves could be pardon but it ahould be convincible enough i need image as proves names and links not quote"

gregyboy:



(1) Post the art works of ife art with proves that date at the 12c please not with mere claims post links to were you got you findings from including references and even approved stamp if any....

If you come with mere write up full of claims just know your people will be ashamed of you....


(2) Can you come with the links to the answered question on no4

(3) Again ife has no centre of its artwork origination
The sculpturist who made the ife art qorks cant be traced in ife no evidence that the ife art works were made in ife ....
If your going to debate on this.particular question please i neeed more than interment prove to make it aimpler internet proves could be pardon but it ahould be convincible enough i need image as proves names and links not quote"

(1) Oh ye dummy, I am only obliged to substantiate my own claims and not yours.

You need to prove your own lie that Benin kingdom has artworks dating to the 12th century (i.e., the 1100s).
Produce the proof for your own lie, I can't wait no more.

For the record again, the few OLDEST known Benin artworks date to the earliest of the 14th century (i.e., the 1300s).


Moreover, my own claim which I am obliged to defend now with expert, scholarly, academic evidence is that "many Ife artworks date to the 1200s and others to centuries earlier", thus making Ife artworks earlier than the oldest known Benin artworks dating to the 1300s.


Firstly, in a peer-reviewed journal article published in the prestigious "The Journal of African History" under the title "Review: Brass Casting and Its Antecedents in West Africa", it becomes clear that "the results of thermoluminescence dating ... obtained by Willett and Fleming" for some "Ita Yemoo (Ife) figures" date to circa year 1275, and some others from the same site to latest of circa 1440.

Refer to the first attached screenshot of the relevant page from:

Merrick Posnansky: "Review: Brass Casting and Its Antecedents in West Africa", The Journal of African History, Vol. 18, No. 2 (1977), p. 296.


Furthermore, in another peer-reviewed journal article published in the same prestigious "The Journal of African History" under the title "A New Survey of Radiocarbon and Thermoluminescence Dates for West Africa", it becomes clear that certain Ife figures have been dated to circa year 1150, and to circa year 1060.

Refer to the second attached screenshot of the relevant page from:

D. Calvocoressi & Nicholas David: "A New Survey of Radiocarbon and Thermoluminescence Dates for West Africa", The Journal of African History, Vol. 20, No. 1 (1979), p. 18.


It becomes clear, therefore from the foregoing, that Ife artworks date not just to the 1200s, but farther to the 1000s (and perhaps even much farther).


(2) Regarding my earlier reply to your lie that Ife artworks were unknown until the Europeans' 20th-century excavation. I had noted that, prior to the first archaeological excavation conducted in Ife in 1910, it was already known that the ancient Ife people had artworks.

To substantiate my statement, I made reference to three artworks namely: the Olokun Head, the Obalufon mask, and the Lajuwa head.

I am disappointed that even with my mention of these names, you still had no clue about anything whatsoever that these heads relate to, yet you want to have a discussion on Ife Art. Really?


But even as ignorant as I knew you to be, I expected that would have been proactive and simply do the obvious. But since you lack the initiative I would say, going forward, you should always do the work yourself (rather than requesting for help to be spoonfed) by typing those names viz. the Olokun Head, the Obalufon mask, and the Lajuwa head into an internet search engine known as "Google". This "Google" then provides you with a number of options from which you can then make a choice depending on the authority, detail, etc. of the information provided.

So that you know when "Google" comes up, it looks something like is seen in the third screenshot below.


However, choosing on my own volition to spoonfeed you at this time, consider the following information on the Head of Olokun, showing that it was already known as an Ife Art even before the first archaeological excavation conducted in Ife in the 20th century.


The following words are from a joint publication by experts at The British Museum entitled "The Olokun Head Reconsidered":

"... the ‘Olokun’ head ("figs. 1 & 2" ) was first shown to the German ethnographer and traveller, Leo Frobenius on his arrival in Ife in 1910 ..."

This shows definitively that this head was already well-known by the natives particularly (and as will be seen by West Africans more generally) even before Leo Frobenius will conduct the first archaeological excavation in Ife in the year 1910.

Moreover, the publication continues:

"In the course of his travels through West Africa in 1908 L. Frobenius heard frequent stories of a wonderful statue of the god Olokun located in Ife ... Medieval Ife had been an important city state in West Africa which flourished as a commercial, political and spiritual centre with access to lucrative trade networks ("Johnson 1921" ). L. Frobenius travelled to Ife in 1910, visited numerous sites and started excavating and uncovering an impressive collection of stone and terracotta art works. After repeated enquiries about the statue, he was taken out to the Ebolokun, an extensive grove dedicated to Olokun, the god of wealth and the sea, and shown not a statue but a brass head. In Frobenius’ words ("Frobenius 1913: 98" ) ‘Before us stood a head of marvellous beauty, wonderfully cast in antique bronze, true to life, encrusted with a patina of ­glorious dark green’."

Refer here for details: https://journals.openedition.org/aaa/266#quotation

The authors include: Paul T. Craddock, Janet Ambers, Maickel van Bellegem, Caroline R. Cartwright, Julie Hudson, and Susan La Niece et Michela Spataro.


It becomes clear, therefore from the foregoing, that not only were ancient Ife artworks well known in Ife and Yorubaland, they were also well-known in the West African region more generally, even prior to their discovery by the Europeans.


Furthermore, refer to page 4 and page 5 of the publication of The University of Iowa Stanley Museum of Art (found here https://africa.uima.uiowa.edu/chapters/ancient-africa/ife/?start=0) showing respectively that the Lajuwa head and the Obalufon mask have always been kept in the king's palace.


(3) Regarding your last claims here, I must say that it is very obvious that you sound pained and frustrated. However, I leave it to you to prove your claim since it is you who made the claims rather than begin to refute you when you yourself haven't shown any intention of seriousness by attempting to bring forward anything that even remotely looks like an evidence or proof for the claims.


To close out on this, I like to very quickly remind you of my opening requests as well as issue new requests to you in relation to your claims:

(a) Provide evidence for your lie that some Benin artworks have been dated to the 12th century (i.e., the 1100s), or even to the 13th century (i.e., the 1200s).

(b) Provide me evidence for your lie that Ile-Ife had no centre of production of artworks.

(c) Provide me evidence for your idiotic lie that there is no evidence that the Ife arts are Ife arts.

(d) Provide me evidence for your implicit claim that one artist made all the Ife arts spanning many centuries.

(e) Provide me evidence for your idiotic implicit claim that there is no known name to which any Ife artwork may be traced.

(f) Provide me evidence for the name of the artist who made the Benin artworks (in case you truly believe that one artist made them).

TAO11:


(1) Oh ye dummy, I am only obliged to substantiate my own claims and not yours.

You need to prove your own lie that Benin kingdom has artworks dating to the 12th century (i.e., the 1100s)".
Produce the proof for your own lie, I can't wait no more.

For the record again, the few OLDEST known Benin artworks date to the earliest of the 14th century (i.e., the 1300s).


Moreover, my own claim which I am obliged to defend now with expert, scholarly, academic evidence is that "many Ife artworks date to the 1200s and others to centuries earlier", thus making Ife artworks earlier than the oldest known Benin artworks dating to the 1300s.


Firstly, in a peer-reviewed journal article published in the prestigious "The Journal of African History" under the title "Review: Brass Casting and Its Antecedents in West Africa", it becomes clear that "the results of thermoluminescence dating ... obtained by Willett and Fleming" for some "Ita Yemoo (Ife) figures" date to circa year 1275, and some others from the same site to latest of circa 1440.

Refer to the first attached screenshot of the relevant page from:

Merrick Posnansky: "Review: Brass Casting and Its Antecedents in West Africa", The Journal of African History, Vol. 18, No. 2 (1977), p. 296.


Furthermore, in another peer-reviewed journal article published in the same prestigious "The Journal of African History" under the title "A New Survey of Radiocarbon and Thermoluminescence Dates for West Africa", it becomes clear that certain Ife figures have been dated to circa year 1150, and to circa year 1060.

Refer to the second attached screenshot of the relevant page from:

D. Calvocoressi & Nicholas David: "A New Survey of Radiocarbon and Thermoluminescence Dates for West Africa", The Journal of African History, Vol. 20, No. 1 (1979), p. 18.


It becomes clear, therefore from the foregoing, that Ife artworks date not just to the 1200s, but farther to the 1000s (and perhaps even much farther).


(2) Regarding my earlier reply to your lie that Ife artworks were unknown until the Europeans' 20th-century excavation. I had noted that, prior to the first archaeological excavation conducted in Ife in 1910, it was already known that the ancient Ife people had artworks.

To substantiate my statement, I made reference to three artworks namely: the Olokun Head, the Obalufon mask, and the Lajuwa head.

I am disappointed that even with my mention of these names, you still had no clue about anything whatsoever that these heads relate to, yet you want to have a discussion on Ife Art. Really?


But even as ignorant as I knew you to be, I expected that would have been proactive and simply do the obvious. But since you lack the initiative I would say, going forward, you should always do the work yourself (rather than requesting for help to be spoonfed) by typing those names viz. the Olokun Head, the Obalufon mask, and the Lajuwa head into an internet search engine known as "Google". This "Google" then provides you with a number of options from which you can then make a choice depending on the authority, detail, etc. of the information provided.

So that you know when "Google" comes up, it looks something like is seen in the third screenshot below.


However, choosing on my own volition to spoonfeed you at this time, consider the following information on the Head of Olokun, showing that it was already known as an Ife Art even before the first archaeological excavation conducted in Ife in the 20th century.


The following words are from a joint publication by experts at The British Museum's entitled "The Olokun Head Reconsidered":

"... the ‘Olokun’ head ("figs. 1 & 2" ) was first shown to the German ethnographer and traveller, Leo Frobenius on his arrival in Ife in 1910 ..."

This shows definitively that this head was already well-known by the natives particularly (and as will be seen by West Africans more generally) even before Leo Frobenius will conduct the first archaeological excavation in Ife in the year 1910.

Moreover, the publication continues:

"In the course of his travels through West Africa in 1908 L. Frobenius heard frequent stories of a wonderful statue of the god Olokun located in Ife ... Medieval Ife had been an important city state in West Africa which flourished as a commercial, political and spiritual centre with access to lucrative trade networks ("Johnson 1921" ). L. Frobenius travelled to Ife in 1910, visited numerous sites and started excavating and uncovering an impressive collection of stone and terracotta art works. After repeated enquiries about the statue, he was taken out to the Ebolokun, an extensive grove dedicated to Olokun, the god of wealth and the sea, and shown not a statue but a brass head. In Frobenius’ words ("Frobenius 1913: 98" ) ‘Before us stood a head of marvellous beauty, wonderfully cast in antique bronze, true to life, encrusted with a patina of ­glorious dark green’."

Refer here for details: https://journals.openedition.org/aaa/266#quotation

The authors include: Paul T. Craddock, Janet Ambers, Maickel van Bellegem, Caroline R. Cartwright, Julie Hudson, and Susan La Niece et Michela Spataro.


It becomes clear, therefore from the foregoing, that not only were ancient Ife artworks well known in Ife and Yorubaland, they are also well-known in the West African region more generally, even prior to their discovery by the Europeans.


Furthermore, refer to page 4 and page 5 of the publication of The University of Iowa Stanley Museum of Art (found here https://africa.uima.uiowa.edu/chapters/ancient-africa/ife/?start=0) showing respectively that the Lajuwa head and the Obalufon mask have always been kept in the king's palace.


(3) Regarding your last claims here, I must say that it is very obvious that you sound pained and frustrated. However, I leave it to you to prove your claim since it is you who made the claims rather than begin to refute you when you yourself haven't shown any intention of seriousness by attempting to bring forward anything that even remotely looks like an evidence or proof for the claims.


To close out on this, I like to very quickly remind of my opening request as well as issue new request to you in relation to your claims:

(a) Provide evidence for your lie that some Benin artworks have been dated to the 12th century (i.e., the 1100s), or even to the 13th century (i.e., the 1200s).

(b) Provide me evidence for your lie that Ile-Ife had no centre of production of artworks.

(c) Provide me evidence for your idiotic lie that there is no evidence that the Ife arts are Ife arts.

(d) Provide me evidence for your implicit claim that one artist made all the Ife arts spanning many centuries.

(e) Provide me evidence for your idiotic implicit claim that there is no known name to which any Ife artwork may be traced.

(f) Provide me evidence for the name of the artist who made the Benin artworks (in case you truly believe that one artist made them).

I know you wont be able to defend it nevertheless if i begin to defend the claims
that benin art date to the 12c i would only come out with mere claims from different scholars with no sculpture to prove it ....and thats what you have been giving me mere claims of scholars record not fact not evidence if i am to go that road just as you i will be an hypocrite of my own judgement
The oldest sculpture found in benin date 14c just thesame as ife oldest artwork this lives me a question which is oldest
Mind you don't come here and write ife terracotta works they are pure works of assumptions

I read trough the links thanks i want you to that often but you dont when you intend hiding the truth....

You were correct on the fact that ife knew some(not all as some were seen by Chance) of the location of their art works
Just as the olokon head and i got to read that the ooni and the custodian of the olokon shrine
Sold this art work to the German man who did the excavation it took the help of the britsh to return it ....haha

Little wonder why igbos and hausas refers to yorubas as slaves


Note if you can answer my previous question dont quote me anymore and mind you dont go around saying you defeated me and i ran


Regarding the second link it state that the sculpture rep a king of 11c or 12c which means it was not certain it was an account told by someone no research was done to determine the exact years of the artwork...

Did you see that approval i screenshot for you with stamp was there anything like 12 to 15c dont give me that please give me real date

I just left because you wont answer the question untill then

gregyboy:


I know you wont be able to defend it nevertheless if i begin to defend the claims
that benin art date to the 12c i would only come out with mere claims from different scholars with no sculpture to prove it ....and thats what you have been giving me mere claims of scholars record not fact not evidence if i am to go that road just as you i will be an hypocrite of my own judgement
The oldest sculpture found in benin date 14c just thesame as ife oldest artwork this lives me a question which is oldest
Mind you don't come here and write ife terracotta works they are pure works of assumptions

I read trough the links thanks i want you to that often but you dont when you intend hiding the truth....

You were correct on the fact that ife knew some(not all as some were seen by Chance) of the location of their art works
Just as the olokon head and i got to read that the ooni and the custodian of the olokon shrine
Sold this art work to the German man who did the excavation it took the help of the britsh to return it ....haha

Little wonder why igbos and hausas refers to yorubas as slaves


Note if you can answer my previous question dont quote me anymore and mind you dont go around saying you defeated me and i ran


Regarding the second link it state that the sculpture rep a king of 11c or 12c which means it was not certain it was an account told by someone no research was done to determine the exact years of the artwork...

Did you see that approval i screenshot for you with stamp was there anything like 12 to 15c dont give me that please give me real date

I just left because you wont answer the question untill then

. Wtf.. Is this all the response you have to that beautiful post?


I was actually blown away with "with stamp was there"
what exactly is the cause of the complete intellectual deficiency of this Bini people

gregyboy:


(1) I know you wont be able to defend it nevertheless if i begin to defend the claims that benin art date to the 12c.

(2) I would only come out with mere claims from different scholars with no sculpture to prove it ....and thats what you have been giving me mere claims of scholars record not fact not evidence if i am to go that road just as you i will be an hypocrite of my own judgement


(3) The oldest sculpture found in benin date 14c just thesame as ife oldest artwork this lives me a question which is oldest

(4) Mind you don't come here and write ife terracotta works they are pure works of assumptions


(5) I read trough the links thanks i want you to that often but you dont when you intend hiding the truth....

(6) You were correct on the fact that ife knew some (not all as some were seen by Chance) of the location of their art works


(7) Just as the olokon head and i got to read that the ooni and the custodian of the olokon shrine
Sold this art work to the German man who did the excavation it took the help of the britsh to return it ....haha

(8 ) Little wonder why igbos and hausas refers to yorubas as slaves.


(9) Note if you can answer my previous question dont quote me anymore


(10) and mind you dont go around saying you defeated me and i ran


(11) Regarding the second link it state that the sculpture rep a king of 11c or 12c which means [s]it was not certain it was an account told by someone no research was done to determine the exact years of the artwork ... Did you see that approval i screenshot for you with stamp was there anything like 12 to 15c dont give me that please give me real date.[/s]

(12) I just left because you wont answer the question untill then.

(1) Regardless of whatever you think you "know" in advance, I am not obliged to prove your own claims for you.

So, whether you are able or unable to defend your claims has nothing to do with me defending them for you.

Defend your claims, as highlighted for you from (a) to (f), because you made them.


(2) It is a contradiction to remark that a dating result is scholarly but yet a mere claim. You have to make up your mind. It is either scholarly (i.e., a redoubtable evidence) or a mere claim (attributable only to laypersons like yourself), but not possibly both.

So, like I have schooled you before now, a statement is a mere claim when it is attributable only to lay persons like yourself.

Thus, it is not a picture which necessarily makes a statement become factual, rather it is the authority/competence of the source to which the statement is attributable.

In sum, provide your evidence how ever you want to, provided the "evidence" is attributable to expert, scholarly, academic sources.


(3) You have just taken your first step towards truth by now admitting unequivocally that the oldest sculpture found in Benin kingdom dates to the 14th century.

In other words, you've just admitted that you've been lying all along when you've been claiming that Benin kingdom has artworks dating to the 12th century.

However, you still habour a significant chunk of dishonesty (even in the presence of evidence) when you added that the oldest Ife artworks also date to the 14th century. Lol!

Your foregoing additional remark here is a clear laughable reflection of your bitterness and disappointment. It is obviously a we are going down together attitude.

Your additional remark here is obviously false and unfounded because the first screenshot I had attached shows the results thermoluminescence tests (obtained by Willett and Flemming), dating a number of Ita Yemoo (Ife) sculptures to circa year 1275.

Refer, one more time, to the first attached screenshot: Merrick Posnansky: "Review: Brass Casting and Its Antecedents in West Africa", The Journal of African History, Vol. 18, No. 2 (1977), p. 296.


Also, the second attached screenshot shows that a number of terracotta figures, from shrines in Ife, dates to circa year 1150 as well as to circa year 1060.

Refer, one more time, to the second attached screenshot: D. Calvocoressi & Nicholas David: "A New Survey of Radiocarbon and Thermoluminescence Dates for West Africa", The Journal of African History, Vol. 20, No. 1 (1979), p. 18.


I can only imagine how bitter and frustrated you must be feeling at this juncture.


(4) Here, I am not sure what language you're typing in when you noted that "terracotta works" means "pure works of assumptions".

Do you mind typing in English language?


(5) I do not require that you should thank me for spoon-feeding you, instead I really want you to reflect over your technological challenge and incompetence which is so bad that struggle to use "Google" (if you ever had any clue what that was).

Moreover, it is my prerogative to decide whether or not I would spoon-feed you whenever you beg to be spoon-fed.

What is necessary is that I provide detailed, sufficient, and relevant expert, scholarly, academic references in whatever manner I see fit. This I have consistently and repeatedly done.


(6) As I have shown with evidence, not merely did modern Ife people (or even West Africans more generally) know the "location" of those Ife ancient artworks (before others were excavated in the 20th century by the Europeans); the locals actually know what these artworks physically looked like and felt like, because it was always in their custody.

The Olokun head was in the Ebolokun grove, , while the the Obalufon mask and the Lajuwa head was in the custody of the Ooni at the palace.


Refer, one more time, to: "The Olokun Head Reconsidered" --- A publication of The British Museum cited in my earlier comment.


Refer, one more time, to: Page 4 and page 5 of the following publication of The University of Iowa Stanley Museum of Art found here: https://africa.uima.uiowa.edu/chapters/ancient-africa/ife/?start=0 for details of the foregoing information on the Obalufon mask and the Lajuwa head.

I am not sure how you do not see that the foregoing facts (even with your partial admittance) exposes your lie that it wasn't until the 20th century archaeological excavations that ancient artworks came to be known in Ife.


(7) Firstly, no German man excavated the Olokun head, you should go back to class.

Secondly, I would rather be an "owner" who willingly and freely chooses to sell whatever portion of what he owns (at a price determined under the fair invisible forces of demand and supply), than to be an owner who loses all he owns to daylight robbery under his nose, while he nurses the wounds of a punitive massacre; got expelled from his own residence; and continues to beg for the return of all he owns even up to more than one century later.

The latter "owner" sounds somehow like Benin kingdom and its government at the end of the 19th century, or is it?


(8 ) I am not sure why you tried to save-face and distract by attempting to drag the Igbos and the Hausas in as a substitute for the Binis.

No, I think the Binis should be able to debate the Yorubas as well ass defend their own claims without needing any help from the Igbos and the Hausas.

Moreover, that you or anyone merely make a claim is not one and the same thing as proving the claim. Quickly appreciate the difference between these two.


(9) What you've tagged as "questions" are actually not put forward as questions but as claims. The following are your precise words (with correction to your typos):

"Ife has no centre of its artwork origination. The sculptor who made the Ife artworks can't be traced. There is no no evidence that the ife art works were made in life."

It therefore becomes clear that what you put forward we're not question but loads of claims.

And as common sense should by now have informed you that it is you from who I should be demanding evidence for your claims and not the other way round.

So, defend your claims, as I had already highlighted them for you from points (a) to (f), because you made them.


(10) Okay, I "promise" not to expose you that you ran away after you became well exposed for the liar and ignoramus that you are.

I would kept your secret as a secret.


(11) Although your excuse here (that you reject any dating which spans two centuries) is in itself an embodiment of everything called "ignorance"; however, my point here was never about dating in the first place. I have dealt already with dating before that point, and I have alluded to it here again in point number 3.

My point actually was about the fact that the Lajuwa head and the Obalufon mask were in the custody of the Ooni at the palace. I referred you specifically to page 4 and page 5, NOT page 1. Refer to point number 6 here.


(12) As shown here in my point 9, what you put forward are not questions but loads of claims.

This is another opportunity to ask you to provide the evidence for these claims you made, which in detailed form are as follows:

[s](a) Provide evidence for your lie that some Benin artworks have been dated to the 12th century (i.e., the 1100s), or even to the 13th century (i.e., the 1200s).[/s]

Now struck out because you just admitted in point 3 that you lied.

(b) Provide me evidence for your lie that Ile-Ife had no centre of production of artworks.

(c) Provide me evidence for your idiotic lie that there is no evidence that the Ife arts are Ife arts.

(d) Provide me evidence for your implicit claim that one artist made all the Ife arts spanning many centuries.

(e) Provide me evidence for your idiotic implicit claim that there is no known name to which any Ife artwork may be traced.

(f) Provide me evidence for the name of the artist who made the Benin artworks (in case you truly believe that one artist made them).

macof:
. Wtf.. Is this all the response you have to that beautiful post?


I was actually blown away with "with stamp was there"
what exactly is the cause of the complete intellectual deficiency of this Bini people

Rotfl!

TAO11:


(1) Regardless of whatever you think you "know" in advance, I am not obliged to prove your own claims for you.

So, whether you are able or unable to defend your claims has nothing to do with me defending them for you.

Defend your claims, as highlighted for you from (a) to (f), because you made them.


(2) It is a contradiction to remark that a dating result is scholarly yet a mere claim scholar. You have to make up your mind. It is either scholarly (i.e., a redoubtable evidence) or a mere claim (attributable only to a layperson like yourself), but not possibly both.

So, like I have schooled you before now, a statement is a mere claim only when it is attributable only to lay persons like yourself.

Thus, it is not just a picture which necessarily makes a statement become factual, rather it is the authority and competence of the source to which the statement is attributable.

In sum, provide your evidence how ever you want to, provided the "evidence" is attributable to expert, scholarly, academic sources.


(3) You have just taken your first step towards truth by now admitting unequivocally that the oldest sculpture found in Benin kingdom dates to the 14th century.

In other words, you've just admitted that you've been lying all along when you've been claiming that Benin kingdom has artworks dating to the 12th century.

However, you still habour a significant chunk of dishonesty (even in the presence of evidence) when you added that the oldest Ife artworks also dates to the 14th century. Lol!

Your foregoing additional remark here is a clear laughable reflection of your bitterness and disappointment. It is obviously a we are going down together attitude.

But your additional remark is obviously false and unfounded because the first screenshot I attached shows the results (obtained by Willet and Flemming) of thermoluminescence dating of a number of Ita Yemoo (Ife) sculptures to circa year 1275.

Refer, one more time, to the first attached screenshot: Merrick Posnansky: "Review: Brass Casting and Its Antecedents in West Africa", The Journal of African History, Vol. 18, No. 2 (1977), p. 296.


Also, the second attached screenshot shows that a number of terracotta figures, from shrines in Ife, dates to circa year 1150 as well as to circa year 1060.

Refer, one more time, to the second attached screenshot: D. Calvocoressi & Nicholas David: "A New Survey of Radiocarbon and Thermoluminescence Dates for West Africa", The Journal of African History, Vol. 20, No. 1 (1979), p. 18.


I can only imagine how bitter and frustrated you must be feeling at this juncture.


(4) Here, I am not sure what language you're typing in when you noted that "terracotta works" means "pure works of assumptions".

Do you mind typing in English language?


(5) I do not require that you should thank me for spoon-feeding you, instead I really want you to reflect over your technological challenge and incompetence which is so bad that struggle to use "Google" (if you ever had any clue what that was).

Moreover, it is my prerogative to decide whether or not I would spoon-feed you whenever you beg to be spoon-fed.

What is necessary is that I provide detailed, sufficient, and relevant expert, scholarly, academic references in whatever manner I see fit. This I have consistently and repeatedly done.


(6) As I have shown with evidence, not merely did modern Ife people (or even West Africans more generally) know the "location" of those Ife ancient artworks (before others were excavated in the 20th century by the Europeans); the locals actually know what these artworks physically looked like and felt like, because it was always in their custody.

The Olokun head was in the Ebolokun grove, , while the the Obalufon mask and the Lajuwa head was in the custody of the Ooni at the palace.


Refer, one more time, to: "The Olokun Head Reconsidered" --- A publication of The British Museum cited in my earlier comment.


Refer, one more time, to: Page 4 and page 5 of the following publication of The University of Iowa Stanley Museum of Art found here: https://africa.uima.uiowa.edu/chapters/ancient-africa/ife/?start=0 for details of the foregoing information on the Obalufon mask and the Lajuwa head.

I am not sure how you do not see that the foregoing facts (even with your partial admittance) exposes your lie that it wasn't until the 20th century archaeological excavations that ancient artworks came to be known in Ife.


(7) Firstly, no German man excavated the Olokun head, you should go back to class.

Secondly, I would rather be an "owner" who willingly and freely chooses to sell whatever portion of what he owns (at a price determined under the fair invisible forces of demand and supply), than to be an owner who loses all he owns to daylight robbery under his nose, while he nurses the wounds of a punitive massacre; got expelled from his own residence; and continues to beg for the return of all he owns even up to more than one century later.

The latter "owner" sounds somehow like Benin kingdom and its government at the end of the 19th century, or is it?


(8 ) I am not sure why you tried to save-face and distract by attempting to drag the Igbos and the Hausas in as a substitute for the Binis.

No, I think the Binis should be able to debate the Yorubas as well ass defend their own claims without needing any help from the Igbos and the Hausas.

Moreover, that you or anyone merely make a claim is not one and the same thing as proving the claim. Quickly appreciate the difference between these two.


(9) What you've tagged as "questions" are actually not put forward as questions but as claims. The following are your precise words (with correction to your typos):

"Ife has no centre of its artwork origination. The sculptor who made the Ife artworks can't be traced. There is no no evidence that the ife art works were made in life."

It therefore becomes clear that what you put forward we're not question but loads of claims.

And as common sense should by now have informed you that it is you from who I should be demanding evidence for your claims and not the other way round.

So, defend your claims, as I had already highlighted them for you from points (a) to (f), because you made them.


(10) Okay, I "promise" not to expose you that you ran away after you became well exposed for the liar and ignoramus that you are.

I would kept your secret as a secret.


(11) Although your excuse here (that you reject any dating which spans two centuries) is in itself an embodiment of everything called "ignorance"; however, my point here was never about dating in the first place. I have dealt already with dating before that point, and I have alluded to it here again in point number 3.

My point actually was about the fact that the Lajuwa head and the Obalufon mask were in the custody of the Ooni at the palace. I referred you specifically to page 4 and page 5, NOT page 1. Refer to point number 6 here.


(12) As shown here in my point 9, what you put forward are not questions but loads of claims.

This is another opportunity to ask you to provide the evidence for these claims you made, which in detailed form are as follows:

[s](a) Provide evidence for your lie that some Benin artworks have been dated to the 12th century (i.e., the 1100s), or even to the 13th century (i.e., the 1200s).[/s]

Now struck out because you just admitted in point 3 that you lied.

(b) Provide me evidence for your lie that Ile-Ife had no centre of production of artworks.

(c) Provide me evidence for your idiotic lie that there is no evidence that the Ife arts are Ife arts.

(d) Provide me evidence for your implicit claim that one artist made all the Ife arts spanning many centuries.

(e) Provide me evidence for your idiotic implicit claim that there is no known name to which any Ife artwork may be traced.

(f) Provide me evidence for the name of the artist who made the Benin artworks (in case you truly believe that one artist made them).

Laughable that is simply a pdf file done by anyone and refrenced it could even be a project work done by a Yoruba student in nigeria. he could decide to add and edit qorms he refrenced

Though i told you not to give me write ups or claims but sculpture to prove this art works date this period if necessarily stamps of aprroval like i did for the dwarfs

Must i get to say this all the time i could post a pdf file stating benin art date to 12c but it will be claims because no art works to prove it but only schloars writeup....

Can we now see it now pictures

The writter also mention that for pottery artwork made from clay or sand are difficult to take dating from which the terrocotta heads falls into most of writers you post quote from have not even see this artworks because they are few so they didn't even get to do carbon dating the only people who had access to this artworks are the british the rest probably had a protype of it thats why you go on net to search on ife art works same art works will be having different dating because of poor research work the german who wrote about the ife art after trying to purchase the olokun head and failed went back to germany to write on the art work and hw even dated it without no carbin dating research


Also regarding the ife art saying it widely known in africa before the arrivalc of the britsh is a fallacy

Yes i made my statement in claims and ask you to defend it but instead you are throwing it back. are you indirectly saying you cant prove my , claims wrong that am right i thought u were praised by your colleagues that you are a great yoruba scholar lol
What a shame all you have is claims pdf no proves

I have a claim that art works were done during the ogiso time back 3c can i post it .
Lol


You rather sell your artwork for a price art work that is scared to your peopls religion thia this statement come as a result of pride or your own reasoning

Hmm ooh my ....you bleeped

gregyboy:


(1) Laughable that is simply a pdf file done by anyone and refrenced it could even be a project work done by a Yoruba student in nigeria. he could decide to add and edit qorms he refrenced

(2) Though i told you not to give me write ups or claims but sculpture to prove this art works date this period if necessarily stamps of aprroval like i did for the dwarfs

(3) Must i get to say this all the time i could post a pdf file stating benin art date to 12c but it will be claims because no art works to prove it but only schloars writeup .... Can we now see it now pictures

(4) The writter also mention that for pottery artwork made from clay or sand are difficult to take dating from which the terrocotta heads falls into.


(5) [s]most of writers you post quote from have not even see this artworks because they are few so they didn't even get to do carbon dating the only people who had access to this artworks are the british the rest probably had a protype of it thats why you go on net to search on ife art works same art works will be having different dating because of poor research work the german who wrote about the ife art after trying to purchase the olokun head and failed went back to germany to write on the art work and hw even dated it without no carbin dating research.[/s]


(6) Also regarding the ife art saying it widely known in africa before the arrivalc of the britsh is a fallacy


(7) Yes i made my statement in claims and ask you to defend it but instead you are throwing it back. are you indirectly saying you cant prove my , claims wrong that am right i thought u were praised by your colleagues that you are a great yoruba scholar lol
What a shame all you have is claims pdf no proves

(8 ) I have a claim that art works were done during the ogiso time back 3c can i post it .
Lol


(9) You rather sell your artwork for a price art work that is scared to your peopls religion thia this statement come as a result of pride or your own reasoning

Hmm ooh my ....you bleeped

To the best of my knowledge, some of the first steps to providing help to a mythomaniac is to first make them confess and admit that they've been lying.

I am glad that you're on the path of healing and recovery as you've already confessed that you've been lying all week long that Benin kingdom has artworks dating to the 12th century.

Moreover, I need to make it clear at this point that it has already since become obvious to all and sundry that what is left of your replies are mere face-saving excuses. Each reply you give exposes your emptiness more than the previous reply did.

It has become well established now that your face-saving excuses are clearly reminiscent of the proverbial drowning man clutching at straws to save his own life.

So, it should be clear that the reason I continue to indulge you is not that your replies are any better than the dumbass laughable face-saving howlers you've always come with.

No, you have already been slaughtered and squashed. My last motive now is to finally erase not only you but also the most ridiculous lies and laughable face-saving excuses you can ever come up with. There has never been going back and there won't be any!


(1) Having said that, it should be made clear that I am not responsible for your technological challenge and incompetence.

Any competent, sane, and stable mind knows better on how best to utilize that internet to verify whether or not the attached documents are actually found at the two references given, namely:

Merrick Posnansky: "Review: Brass Casting and Its Antecedents in West Africa", The Journal of African History, Vol. 18, No. 2 (1977), p. 296. and D. Calvocoressi & Nicholas David: "A New Survey of Radiocarbon and Thermoluminescence Dates for West Africa", The Journal of African History, Vol. 20, No. 1 (1979), p. 18.

Or do you want the respective links to the complete text of each of these two journal articles??


Also, the second attached screenshot shows that a number of figures, from shrines in Ife, dates to circa year 1150 as well as to circa year 1060.

Refer, one more time, to the second attached screenshot: D. Calvocoressi & Nicholas David: "A New Survey of Radiocarbon and Thermoluminescence Dates for West Africa", The Journal of African History, Vol. 20, No. 1 (1979), p. 18.


(2) The picture of an artwork by itself proves nothing. A picture doesn't by itself provide a dating result. An expert, scholarly, academic statement does.

What stands tall in the final analysis is that an expert, scholarly, academic statement provides the dating result of an artwork, and as I have conclusively demonstrated already with the two duly referenced peer-reviewed journal articles of "The Journal of African History"; there are at least three different Ife artworks dated by the thermoluminescence technique to circa years 1275, 1150, and 1060.


Moreover, going by your already flawed logic:

Could it be that the screenshot of the Benin dwarf artefact you once attached is simply a fake pdf made by some desperate Bini like yourself; showing a copied and embedded picture of the artefact from the internet; containing a mere fake statement impersonating some laboratory among others; as well as containing a forged stamp mark and forged signatures??

Could that have been the case??


(3) Yes, If you can find any such statement (along the false lines that certain Benin artworks date to the 12th century) then go ahead and provide it.

But be mindful that the statement must be attributable to an expert, scholarly, or academic source.

It makes no difference if the statement shows a picture because a picture by itself does not prove whether or not the artefact dates to the 12th century. What ultimately proves the point is the expert, scholarly, academic statement which says so.

Provide such authoritative statement which states (with or without pictures) that certain Benin artworks date to the 12th century. Then I will truly agree that certain Benin artworks date to the 12th century.

Anyways you already confessed that you were lying all along about that.


(4) Isn't it ironic and interesting that it is the same article which you've deemed (without proof) to be a fake by certain Yoruba student that you've now turned to for proof that pottery works are "difficult" to date??

Anyways, firstly, nowhere does the first screenshot (which you're apparently referring to) state that it was "difficult" to date pottery works. That word or idea just doesn't occur in the text.

What is mentioned in the text instead is that thermoluminescence datings are more reliable for cire-perdu cores (aka clay cores of metal castings) than for pots. Nowhere does the text mention any word or idea like "difficult". Please show it if you insist it did. And even if it did (although it obviously doesn't), you would have to demonstrate the logical and linguistic equivalence of "difficulty" and "impossibility".

However, the reason for the relative more reliability of the thermoluminescence dating result of clay cores of metal castings as compared to pottery works of antiquity was clearly stated in the text. The reason given in the text is clearly and obviously unique to pots and as such non-extendable/non-applicable to terracotta artworks.

The text states very clearly that the reason is due to a "suspicion" (clearly not a definitive knowing) that some pots may have been significantly under-fired (by the potter, on her assumption that their 'expected' prolonged consumption would make up the deficiency); or that others may have been significantly over-fired (by the consumer(s), as the pots may have significantly survived their typical useful life).

This unique reason of 'firing' which the author specifically identifies with pots is obviously in no way applicable or extendable to terracotta artworks by any stretch of the imagination.


(5) Please include all your claims here in the compilation of your claims, from (b) to (f), which you are yet to substantiate with any evidence, proof, or reason.


(6) Maybe Ife artworks were widely known in Africa before the first Ife archaeological excavation in the early 20th century. Maybe, I'm not certain.

What I am certain about, however, is the historical fact that prior to his visit to Ife, Nigeria in 1910; The German anthropologist and archaeologist Leo Frobenius had, in the course of his travels through West Africa in 1908, heard frequent stories about at least one of the artworks of the Yoruba people of Ife.


Please point out where my statement had mentioned "Africa" per se as opposed to "West Africa" (although this clarification and disclaimer is not to be conflated with a hasty dismissal of your alleged widespread popularity of the Ife artwork all over Africa) at that time.


Also, please point out where my statement was about the period prior to the British invasion.

Now you really need to slow down on lying.


(7) Did you really by yourself type those words or your Nairaland account was hacked??

Did you really insist that it is I who must defend your own claims?? Now you really wish I was a Bini so I may help you, right? Lol! You have to bear your own burden.

Omg! gregyboy, indeed, has to be the dumbest creature ever liveth.


Although I had initially thought it unnecessary, I now (at this point) feel obliged to add to you by referring you to read up on the maxim: semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit. This is a very vital concept in both philosophy and law.

Also, read up on the logical fallacy known as argumentum ad ignorantiam. You committed this fallacy here at the very point when you stated that your claims are true because I refused to prove them wrong, despite you yourself not having proven your own claims or even make an attempt to.

You failed again to provide even one shred of evidence to substantiate even one of your own claims from (b) to (f) (as well as your latest claims in point 5).

Now, you should be ashamed of repeatedly being a failure.


(8 ) There is no problem at all if indeed you really feel the need to claim that artworks were made in Benin (Igodomigodo) during the Ogiso era.

However, you must realize that it is you (not I) who would have to prove your own claim. Also, you must realize that to prove the claim, it must be substantiated by evidence, proof, or reason which at the minimum should involve citing expert, scholarly, and academic sources.

Should I already add this potential claim to the listing of your empty claims, which you are yet to substantiate with evidence, proof, or reason??

Anyways you already confessed that Benin artworks do not date beyond the 1300s.


(9) Yes, I would rather identify with an "owner" who freely and willingly choose to sell whatever of his valued or sacred pieces he sells; than identify with an "owner" whose all of his valuables were taken from him against his wish and will, to the extent that he continues to beg the robber till date since over a hundred years ago.