Jesus also says:

Mathew 5:17-20

The Fulfillment of the Law
    17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

the law that Jesus is claiming to fulfill is telling you you should not eat pork:

[b]LagosShia, Jesus came to 'fulfil the law' as in 'COMPLETE the law'. You notice that he says in verse 20 that 'righteousness must surpass that of the Pharisees and Teachers'; I mentioned in my address of your original post about 'FOLLOWING THE LAW ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT'. Jesus came to complete/fulfill the Law in pointing us in the right direction: THE LAW WAS NOT TO BE FOLLOWED 'TO THE LETTER' but 'BY THE SPIRIT'. Self-righteousness and righteousness for others to see is not the way; living according to the 'spirit' of the law is the way.

Example: THOU SHALT NOT KILL

Following the Law to the letter, I could hate my neighbour so much but stop at killing him only because the law says not to do so or because I don't want people to know that I have a murderous heart.


Following the Law in the Spirit, I would not even hate him at all, because If I hate him, I would not be keeping the Law 'THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF.'

The Pharisees and teachers had been following the Law to the Letter all their lives; What was missing was the 'obeying the Law to the Spirit', and that was what Jesus came to bring their attention to. He came to complete the Law by introducing the 'Spirit'. God looks at the heart, not the outside; God will hear prayers said while seating on the Loo, just as he will hear prayers said when you have just washed. IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT MATTERS, NOT RELIGION!

Jesus also said that the Law and the Prophets are all fulfilled under 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God' and 'Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself'. Those two laws cover all the laws. Someone who loves their neighbour does not harm them. If you fail in those two laws, you have failed the rest! If you keep these two laws, you have kept the rest![/b]

seyibrown:

@LagosShia


I am happy that you search the Bible for the truth; I pray that one of these days, you find the truth!

Mumu!

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


Are you a happy lad now?  

Now is your “coconut head” test!

Revised Standard Version of the Bible

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
You can find the RSV here:
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=4926419


As you can observe from the above,the word “begotten” is not found.it has being expunged because the word “begotten” is an interpolation.that is not my own account but the account of the doctors of religion that authored the Revised Standard Version.

One can also observe that in a bid to give Jesus a special description,the authors of the above version of the bible have maintained the word “only”.one may as well ask:if Jesus is not “begotten” and the word “begotten” is an interpolation and therefore expunged,on what basis does it justify leaving the word “only”?if Jesus is not “begotten” then what makes him the “only son”? go through the bible you will find tons of sons attributed to God.all those are sons of God in the figurative sense.but the christians says Jesus is not like them because Jesus is “begotten” and not made!go to their so called original manuscripts of the new testament books in greek,you will not find the word “begotten”!!!"begotten" is an interpolation in the translations of the greek manuscripts and therefore was removed from the RSV.

The New World Translation of Jehovah’s Witnesses

When it comes to exaggerating and blaspheming and making man “god”,the christians are best at it.in the same line of interpolations and adding words into their “holy scripture”,the Jehovah’s witness have gone a step ahead.they have not only made Jesus “the only begotten son”,but they have made him a “begotten god”!!!!

John 1:18

No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

The Revised Standard Version

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

The King James Version
John 1:18
18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


3 different accounts in 3 different versions

On the same verse John 1:18 we have 3 different accounts on the same person.on john3:16,we have two different accounts.

And do you still blame the muslim for exposing your inconsistent beliefs that lack any basis?

seyibrown:

[b]LagosShia, Jesus came to 'fulfil the law' as in 'COMPLETE the law'. You notice that he says in verse 20 that 'righteousness must surpass that of the Pharisees and Teachers'; I mentioned in my address of your original post about 'FOLLOWING THE LAW ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT'. Jesus came to complete/fulfill the Law in pointing us in the right direction: THE LAW WAS NOT TO BE FOLLOWED 'TO THE LETTER' but 'BY THE SPIRIT'. Self-righteousness and righteousness for others to see is not the way; living according to the 'spirit' of the law is the way.

Example: THOU SHALT NOT KILL

Following the Law to the letter, I could hate my neighbour so much but stop at killing him only because the law says not to do so or because I don't want people to know that I have a murderous heart.


Following the Law in the Spirit, I would not even hate him at all, because If I hate him, I would not be keeping the Law 'THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF.'

The Pharisees and teachers had been following the Law to the Letter all their lives; What was missing was the 'obeying the Law to the Spirit', and that was what Jesus came to bring their attention to. He came to complete the Law by introducing the 'Spirit'. God looks at the heart, not the outside; God will hear prayers said while seating on the Loo, just as he will hear prayers said when you have just washed. IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT MATTERS, NOT RELIGION!

Jesus also said that the Law and the Prophets are all fulfilled under 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God' and 'Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself'. Those two laws cover all the laws. Someone who loves their neighbour does not harm them. If you fail in those two laws, you have failed the rest! If you keep these two laws, you have kept the rest![/b]

did you read this part of the bible verses or did you skip it?:

Mathew 5:19
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven


what use is it then to be singing about fulfilling the law while doing the opposite with actions?

so according to you,you only fulfill the law when you stop short of killing your neighbor!!!!!!!!keep it up!

[b]Cool down, Shia! You have read my post wrong or did not understand it at all!

All the Laws are fulfilled when you LOVE GOD and LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOUR! Example: If you love God, you would not take a life that he created; If you love your neighbour you will not take his life! If the LOVE OF GOD is not present in your life you cannot fulfill GOD'S LAW! We cannot fulfill all of God's Law because WE HAVE ALL SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF GOD'S STANDARD, that is why his grace is sufficient; That is why the blood of Jesus is there for us, WHEN HE SEES THE BLOOD HE WILL PASS OVER US! If where you are sat, you are not wearing LEAVES, you have most likely fallen short of the Law concerning FABRIC!

What's the point of ablution and prayer 5 times a day when you are planning to blow up your neighbours? What's the point of going to church every sunday when you are embezzling state funds and keeping your fellow citizens in poverty? How do you love God and your neighbour and then 'honor kill'/stone your sister for committing adultery? How do you love God and your neighbour when you rob a child in your care of his/her innocence? Anyone who loves God and loves his neighbour will not do what I have listed above!

LOVING GOD and LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOUR  - not bodily cleanliness - is next to godliness!


About being begotten or not being begotten: NOTHING IN THE BIBLE TAKES AWAY THE MESSIAHSHIP OF JESUS![/b]

@seyibrown

Love,love ,love!!!


if you love God truly you will never break the least of the commandments as Jesus spoke that you should not break even the least and you will not find it hard to not break them and you will not find it hard to abstain from alcohol and pork and other commandments you christians disregard.

seyibrown:

Shia,

I will choose to eat pork and drink some wine everyday over planting a bomb in Mecca to kill thousands of Muslims!

ok seyi,we know that for you and your likes its always a choice between two evils.

i think you should go and sleep,ok?you need the rest to think straight and clear.tomorrow is another day to type rubbish.the forum will not run away.

goodnight.

LagosShia:

ok seyi,we know that for you and your likes its always a choice between two evils.

i think you should go and sleep,ok?you need the rest to think straight and clear.tomorrow is another day to type rubbish.the forum will not run away.

goodnight.

Yes, Bossssssssssss! Just some more Pork Crackling and a bit of Port to wash it down before I finally go to bed! Gbogbo ohun ti Olorun da, daradara ni! K'olorun Ji wa're o! Amin.

Incredible.
Looking for validations of Muhammad in the bible to saying the bible "confuses" all in a day

vanitty:

Incredible.
Looking for validations of Muhammad in the bible to saying the bible "confuses" all in a day

The bible does not validate anything to we Muslims, as our faith is in the Words of ALLAH, the Qur'an. The gave credibilty to Jesus than your bible thumping Pastors. OK, rather than the Qur'an saying the Holy Ghost shall over shadow you(I wonder what that means), it simply said, ALLAH creat what he wants, he only need say be and it is. So the P***n ridden bible cannot validate Muhammad S.A.W message, as THe Qur'an and Hadith is sufficent for we Muslims.

^ Oh you are quoting the wrong person
Direct your speech to the person that opened a thread titled "prophet Muhamma[/b]d in the [b]Bible"

^
so you think his objective is to validate Islam? wrong you are. then why not follow Judaism since Jesus followed it and valdated it?

Look Mr I am not here to argue with you. It is even pointless if you are that confused on a really very obvious and pretty straightforward  observation.
If you cannot see how conflicted the poster is with, with himself you are on your own

vanitty:

Look Mr I am not here to argue with you. It is even pointless if you are that confused on a really very obvious and pretty straightforward observation.
If you cannot see how conflicted the poster is with, with himself you are on your own

read posts #8 and post #55.

here is what i said about my muslim belief on the bible when we quote from it:



any verses quoted by me from the bible is not meant or intended to convince me but to convince those who take the bible as their sole and absolute authority and guide.the verses were therefore presented for your own pleasure".
the bible generally,i or a muslim quotes it when talking to you because you do not believe in the Quran.you believe in the bible so it is an authority and proof over you.you have to abide by it and the statements recorded therein and attributed to Jesus .when the bible explicitly makes my case and supports islam,we simply are telling you to abide by your book and follow islam”.



it makes no sense to accuse me of "confusion" because both the true and the untrue can be found in the bible.it makes also no sense that because Muhammad is prophesied in the bible,that will make the bible 100% acceptable with no examination of it and therefore i must swallow everything in it,

think!

Obviously, vitty is suffering some kind of nervous breakdown, it is better I leave him

I can see it was totally pointless
Biko continue

@firebrand post #47

Seyibrown's post #43 puts an end to the debate.

The similarity btw Moses and Jesus, if any can only be seen with spiritual insight and not the cock and bull story of how Moses got married and Jesus never married to any woman. Afterall if a father married 10 wives and a son decided to marry only one or even abstain from marriage does not make that son a naughty person. For a carnal mind, the similarities are obvious as explained below.

we need "absolute".not "chicken nyash" similarities.we need similarities that are not disputed and are fixed on their own.lets see if the similarities you presented hold any truth.

Valid similarity btw Moses and Jesus are as follows;
1. At the birth of Moses, King Pharaoh ordered the killings of all newly born male child and likewise King Herod ordered the killings of newly born male children at the birth of Jesus. This is a great similarity as both of them have to deliver their people from the bondage of oppression. Somebody else can confirm that for Muhammed.

at the birth of Moses,the same pharoah who wanted to kill him ended up taking care of Moses.Jesus was never killed nor taken care of by the one who wanted to kill him.
a difference within the so called similarity you presented.the point of the two men diverges and therefore makes them unlike each other.the similarity is between the tyrants and not the subjects.herod and the pharoah have something in common.Jesus and Moses in this case do not because their rescue/fate was different.

2.Both ministries of Moses and Jesus are backed with signs and wonders. Miracles of highest dimensions were performed by the two of them. Somobody else can confirm that for Muhammed.

Holy Quran 54:1-5:

The hour (of Judgment) is nigh, and the moon was cleft asunder. (1) But if they see a Sign, they turn away, and say "This is (but) transient magic." (2) They reject (the warning) and follow their (own) lusts but every matter has its appointed time. (3) There have already come to them Recitals wherein there is (enough) to check (them), (4) Mature wisdom― but (the preaching of) Warners profits them not.


the ministry of Muhammad is also backed by signs and wonders.the cleaving of the moon is just one sign.

3. Moses led his people away from Egypt, to a new land and never return them back to the old land of Egypt while Christ also lead his followers to a new Jerusalem, which is paradise. I learnt Muhammed led some people away from Mecca and later came back to the same land to dwell there. This is contrary to the workings of God as it relates to salvation. Abraham was called to leave his country to another country and he never looked back.

Moses did not originate from Egypt.so it would be wrong to expect him to return back to a foreign land.Moses left the enemy's land and was buried somewhere else on his return.Muhammad also was buried in medina outside his home city of Mecca.Muhammad was successful in defeating his enemies who used to trouble him even when he was outside Mecca,i.e. in medina.he still settled in medina and that was his seat.

as for Jesus,he never made any migration.as for his "journey to paradise" that would be the destiny of alll prophets.there is nothing peculiar about that.when you make such remarks and use such words,it makes me wonder if you're are begging for charity for people to accept your reasoning or your religion.

@Seyibrown you are very far from truth and you seem not want to get the that truth despite the fact that they gives you lots of proofs and evidence Well i know one day you will know the truth with is Islam and the Holy Quran

[b]Sorry, bashy and co! I do not see the 'truth' and 'lots of proofs and evidence' that you think your brothers have presented! They only divert the discussions from reason and logic; their responses to posts are full of 'attacks' instead of 'defence'. What they present is absolutely far from the 'truth' and contains hardly any proof/evidence, instead, it is usually more like the ravings of mad men. They cannot even present arguments in a 'civil' manner, but with threats and insults, and that does not endear anyone to you or Allah!

What is the attraction of a religion that does not allow me to ask God for forgiveness for adultery but instead killls me? We have many questions for you but the ones asked you fail to provide answers and provide attacks instead! Why is it difficult for you to explain why people who are themselves sinners should execute a fellow sinner? Is it because Allah is able to forgive the executor(s) sins but Allah is not able forgive the sin of the one that was executed? Does the murderer have a better standing before Allah than the Adulterer?

My Bible tells me the devil has come to steal to kill and destroy; If Allah is not the devil, why then is Allah destroying his own people by commanding muslims to kill 'sinner muslims' and 'infidels'? Is it so that the Killers of the 'sinners' and 'infidels' will be murderers before the true God, the 'sinner muslims' die in fear and not get the chance to reconcile with the true God, and that the dead 'infidels' will no longer be able to spread the true word of God?

Try and answer questions directly and in a civil manner and without threats and maybe some people will start taking you seriously![/b]

seyibrown:

Sorry, bashy and co! I do not see the 'truth' and 'lots of proofs and evidence' that you think your brothers have presented! They only divert the discussions from reason and logic; their responses to posts are full of 'attacks' instead of 'defence'. What they present is absolutely far from the 'truth' and contains hardly any proof/evidence, instead, it is usually more like the ravings of mad men. They cannot even present arguments in a 'civil' manner, but with threats and insults, and that does not endear anyone to you or Allah!

it is only with you that empty words are proof while evidence is threat and insults.take a look at this:

LagosShia:

Mumu!
Now is your “coconut head” test!

[b]Revised Standard Version of the Bible

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
You can find the RSV here:
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=4926419


As you can observe from the above,the word “begotten” is not found.it has being expunged because the word “begotten” is an interpolation.that is not my own account but the account of the doctors of religion that authored the Revised Standard Version.

One can also observe that in a bid to give Jesus a special description,the authors of the above version of the bible have maintained the word “only”.one may as well ask:if Jesus is not “begotten” and the word “begotten” is an interpolation and therefore expunged,on what basis does it justify leaving the word “only”?if Jesus is not “begotten” then what makes him the “only son”? go through the bible you will find tons of sons attributed to God.all those are sons of God in the figurative sense.but the christians says Jesus is not like them because Jesus is “begotten” and not made!go to their so called original manuscripts of the new testament books in greek,you will not find the word “begotten”!!!"begotten" is an interpolation in the translations of the greek manuscripts and therefore was removed from the RSV.

The New World Translation of Jehovah’s Witnesses

When it comes to exaggerating and blaspheming and making man “god”,the christians are best at it.in the same line of interpolations and adding words into their “holy scripture”,the Jehovah’s witness have gone a step ahead.they have not only made Jesus “the only begotten son”,but they have made him a “begotten god”!!!!

John 1:18

No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

The Revised Standard Version

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

The King James Version
John 1:18
18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


3 different accounts in 3 different versions

On the same verse John 1:18 we have 3 different accounts on the same person.on john3:16,we have two different accounts.

And do you still blame the muslim for exposing your inconsistent beliefs that lack any basis?

What is the attraction of a religion that does not allow me to ask God for forgiveness for adultery but instead killls me? We have many questions for you but the ones asked you fail to provide answers and provide attacks instead! Why is it difficult for you to explain why people who are themselves sinners should execute a fellow sinner? Is it because Allah is able to forgive the executor(s) sins but Allah is not able forgive the sin of the one that was executed? Does the murderer have a better standing before Allah than the Adulterer?

My Bible tells me the devil has come to steal to kill and destroy; If Allah is not the devil, why then is Allah destroying his own people by commanding muslims to kill 'sinner muslims' and 'infidels'? Is it so that the Killers of the 'sinners' and 'infidels' will be murderers before the true God, the 'sinner muslims' die in fear and not get the chance to reconcile with the true God, and that the dead 'infidels' will no longer be able to spread the true word of God?

Try and answer questions directly and in a civil manner and without threats and maybe some people will start taking you seriously![/b]

so who do you think you are to declare those passing judgement on people that have break the law "sinners"?are you angel gabriel?

those who are passing the law,are not doing so because they want to judge you and pass judgement for the sin you have committed.that one will be done by God alone.those men pass judgement over the crime you have committed like stealing and raping and adultery so that we dont live in a socioety similar to a jungle.or even worse than a jungle.you are avoiding reality.

Thank God someone is seeing the sense in being able to provide 'answers' to 'questions' in a civil manner. 

so who do you think you are to declare those passing judgement on people that have break the law "sinners"?are you angel gabriel?

those who are passing the law,are not doing so because they want to judge you and pass judgement for the sin you have committed.that one will be done by God alone.those men pass judgement over the crime you have committed like stealing and despoiling and adultery so that we dont live in a socioety similar to a jungle.or even worse than a jungle.you are avoiding reality.

[b]I have not 'passed judgement' on anyone. 'All men have sinned' means that we are all sinners before God, and only his mercies keep us. I refer to those who kill 'sinners' as 'murderers' because that is the right term to describe a human who kills another human. I use the word 'sinners' or 'muslim sinners' to refer to those that are killed in the name of Islam Kills because Islam regards them as 'sinners' for commtiing adultery or any other sin.

My point was that it is for God to decide to take the life of any sinner in judgment of his sins, and not for man to decide to end another mans' life for any sin given that ALL MEN ARE SINNERS. If God struck people dead when they commit a sin, those who carry out the execution of others would be struck dead too because God commands that THOU SHALT NOT KILL! My reasoning thus is because we all know that God is merciful and will forgive anyone who repents and Jesus also said in the matter of the adulterous woman that 'HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN SHOULD CAST THE FIRST STONE. Why doesn't Islam just strip this 'sinners' of their religion or put them in prison(if state law applies to the offence) instead of ROBBING THEM OF THE OPPORTUNITY RECONCILE WITH GOD AND ENJOY GOD'S FORGIVENESS? Saying it more plainly, WHY DO SINNERS KILL OTHER SINNERS FOR COMMITING SIN? (Don't forget that I have already said that WE ARE ALL SINNERS BEFORE GOD AND WE ARE ONLY STILL ALIVE BECAUSE OF HIS MERCIES).

Given that you answered in a clear and civil manner, I gather from your post that THE REASON SINNERS KILL SINNERS IS TO STOP THE WORLD FROM TURNING INTO A JUNGLE(I understand jungle in this context).

God says he 'HAS NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF A SINNER, HE WANTS REPENTANCE'.Will you not agree that getting 'sinners' to change their ways or imprisoning them is a more humane/Godly way to treat sinners than killing them and becoming a 'sinner' (murderer) in the process? We ask God to forgive us the same way we forgive our neighbours; IF WE KILL OUR NEIGHBOURS FOR COMMITTING SIN, ARE WE NOT THEN SAYING TO GOD THAT THE JUDGEMENT FIT FOR OUR OWN SIN IS DEATH? That is in line with Jesus teaching that we should not 'judge' others because we wiill be judged with the same kind of 'judgement' we PASS on others. (Please note that referring to someone who kills as a murderer is not 'judgement', Killing them or supporting that they be killed is the 'judgement' in the context of the scripture)

This is one of the reasons why I am convinced that ISLAM is not the way. Can you see why I chose Jesus instead of Mohammed? I would appreciate any submissions in support of ISLAM on this matter of 'sinner killing sinner' to try and change my mind. Please note that I said 'submissions in support of Islam', not 'submissions against Christianity'!

Thanking you in advance of another civil response.
[/b]

@Seyibrown Do you by any chance understand this word if there is no law there is no sin and i have once said before that every countries, states or community have there own law and punishment for each and that is what makes most Arab countries unite and progressing in a country where they pass it into there construction that punishment for adulterous is death and if they think that law is a joke and someone commit that sin against there law and they kill that fellow the rest will cease from committing that sin, in most Asian countries it was written on there visa's that Penalty for drug trafficking is death and when you do so you got kill no Jupiter can change that i remember a british man was executed life broadcast in china despite the fact that the British prime minister send pardon letter even the queen did they never spare the man so meaning this is our law and if you go against is the penalty is death, so in any country there that is happening you have to go by the rules and regulation. so if those countries killing adulterous woman bring out there consitution you will surely find that in there constitution proof me wrong.

seyibrown:

Thank God someone is seeing the sense in being able to provide 'answers' to 'questions' in a civil manner.

[b]I have not 'passed judgement' on anyone. 'All men have sinned' means that we are all sinners before God, and only his mercies keep us. I refer to those who kill 'sinners' as 'murderers' because that is the right term to describe a human who kills another human. I use the word 'sinners' or 'muslim sinners' to refer to those that are killed in the name of Islam Kills because Islam regards them as 'sinners' for commtiing adultery or any other sin.

My point was that it is for God to decide to take the life of any sinner in judgment of his sins, and not for man to decide to end another mans' life for any sin given that ALL MEN ARE SINNERS. If God struck people dead when they commit a sin, those who carry out the execution of others would be struck dead too because God commands that THOU SHALT NOT KILL! My reasoning thus is because we all know that God is merciful and will forgive anyone who repents and Jesus also said in the matter of the adulterous woman that 'HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN SHOULD CAST THE FIRST STONE. Why doesn't Islam just strip this 'sinners' of their religion or put them in prison(if state law applies to the offence) instead of ROBBING THEM OF THE OPPORTUNITY RECONCILE WITH GOD AND ENJOY GOD'S FORGIVENESS? Saying it more plainly, WHY DO SINNERS KILL OTHER SINNERS FOR COMMITING SIN? (Don't forget that I have already said that WE ARE ALL SINNERS BEFORE GOD AND WE ARE ONLY STILL ALIVE BECAUSE OF HIS MERCIES).

Given that you answered in a clear and civil manner, I gather from your post that THE REASON SINNERS KILL SINNERS IS TO STOP THE WORLD FROM TURNING INTO A JUNGLE(I understand jungle in this context).

God says he 'HAS NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF A SINNER, HE WANTS REPENTANCE'.Will you not agree that getting 'sinners' to change their ways or imprisoning them is a more humane/Godly way to treat sinners than killing them and becoming a 'sinner' (murderer) in the process? We ask God to forgive us the same way we forgive our neighbours; IF WE KILL OUR NEIGHBOURS FOR COMMITTING SIN, ARE WE NOT THEN SAYING TO GOD THAT THE JUDGEMENT FIT FOR OUR OWN SIN IS DEATH? That is in line with Jesus teaching that we should not 'judge' others because we wiill be judged with the same kind of 'judgement' we PASS on others. (Please note that referring to someone who kills as a murderer is not 'judgement', Killing them or supporting that they be killed is the 'judgement' in the context of the scripture)

This is one of the reasons why I am convinced that ISLAM is not the way. Can you see why I chose Jesus instead of Mohammed? I would appreciate any submissions in support of ISLAM on this matter of 'sinner killing sinner' to try and change my mind. Please note that I said 'submissions in support of Islam', not 'submissions against Christianity'!

Thanking you in advance of another civil response.
[/b]

you need to get something straight.if a country has a set of laws,and one of them is violated,the law punishes the perpetrator.the perpetrator is being punished because he was caught in the act of breaking the law.whether he is a sinner or not,God will judge that person.but when the law is violated,the government enforces it.if you believe adultery is a sin,good for you.to the islamic government,committing adultery is against the law and whoever is caught is punished.you must be able to distinguish between breaking the law and enforcing it and punishment for sin.by enforcing the law,no one is taking the place of God.the same goes for murder.even though murder is sin,anyone who kills is killed because the killer has broken the law.yet still,that person will be judged by God as all of us would be.

What the Bible says about stoning
Everybody must get stoned


For touching Mount Sinai

13There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.
Exodus 19:13

For taking "accursed things"
Achan ,  took of the accursed thing. ,  And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. ,  So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Joshua 7:1-26

For cursing or blaspheming

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16

For adultery (including urban despoil victims who fail to scream loud enough)
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24

For animals (like an ox that gores a human)
If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. Exodus 21:28

For a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ,  and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ,  these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ,  But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21

For worshipping other gods

If there be found among you ,  that ,  hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ,  Then shalt thou ,  tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ,  thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10

For disobeying parents

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ,  Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ,  And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

For witches and wizards

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27

For giving your children to Molech

Whosoever ,  giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 20:2

For breaking the Sabbath

They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ,  And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones,  And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56

For cursing the king

Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10

ofcourse seyibrown would tell me Jesus said this:

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.(John 8:7)

True,but Jesus also said this:

The Fulfillment of the Law
    17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, [/b]but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

[b]SO WHY DID JESUS SAY WHAT HE SAID IN JOHN 8?


the answer can be found here,in the preceeding verses of John 8:7:

They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.


so why were they tempting him?


throughout,the pharisees keep bringing riddles and posers to Jesus.they want to either trap him breaking the law of Moses,or if he (Jesus) enforces it,they will then set him up with the roman authority.Jesus did not have political power,so why would they bring an accused woman for Jesus to punish her if their intentions were pure?Jesus knew that so he gave them the right answer and freed himself from the trap of both the jews and the romans and threw the ball back into their court.so it is wrong to say Jesus changed the law or was actually against enforcing the law based on john 8.

pls LagosShia, help answer these questions:
1. Who are Amadiyahs?
2. Are they muslims? True muslims?
3. Who is Prophet Ahmad?
4. What is his relationship to Mohammed?
5. Are you Amadiyah?
Thank you

omoimole:

pls LagosShia, help answer these questions:
1. Who are Amadiyahs?

an off-shoot sunni muslim group that claims their founder is a prophet,after the Prophet Muhammad.

2. Are they muslims? True muslims?

i cannot decide if they are muslims or not.i would have to address this to our marjea-iyyas (scholars of the highest eminence in shia islam).but i can confidently say they are misguided because they believe in a prophet after the Prophet Muhammad.there is no prophet after Muhammad nor any messenger.Muhammad is the seal of prophets.the ahmadiyyas interprete the word for "seal of prophets in the Quran" differently.the Prophet Muhammad is called "the seal of prophets" in the Quran."khatamin nabiyyin" can also be interpreted literally as the "ring of the prophets".so they believe their found mirza ghulam ahmad is a prophet.and that is falsehood.

3. Who is Prophet Ahmad?

Ahmad mentioned in surat as-saf in the Quran refers to the Prophet Muhammad.

4. What is his relationship to Mohammed?

answered in #3.

5. Are you Amadiyah?
Thank you

no,i am not ahmadiyya.i belong to shia islam,one of the two islamic branches.the other branch is sunni islam,under which the ahmadiyyas sprouted out from.ahmadiyyas would fall under sunni islam if we are to categorize them into either sunni or shia.

LagosShia:

What the Bible says about stoning
Everybody must get stoned


For touching Mount Sinai

13There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.
Exodus 19:13

For taking "accursed things"
Achan ,  took of the accursed thing. ,  And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. ,  So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Joshua 7:1-26

For cursing or blaspheming

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16

For adultery (including urban despoil victims who fail to scream loud enough)
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24

For animals (like an ox that gores a human)
If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. Exodus 21:28

For a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ,  and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ,  these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ,  But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21

For worshipping other gods

If there be found among you ,  that ,  hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ,  Then shalt thou ,  tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ,  thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10

For disobeying parents

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ,  Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ,  And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

For witches and wizards

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27

For giving your children to Molech

Whosoever ,  giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 20:2

For breaking the Sabbath

They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ,  And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones,  And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56

For cursing the king

Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10

[b]Please read post # 68 again on the matter of 'Christ and the Law'.

You also forget that I am a CHRISTIAN, which means that I follow CHRIST. I am under the LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE, not under the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH. Why should I hold on to the law of sin and death when God hath redeemed me in Christ? I choose life in Christ, not death in the law; and we all have the choice to choose between LIFE and DEATH.

You also know that the laws of the old covenant which you quote above is not applicable in today's church, so I don't get the point of you bringing it up. Christianity does not kill people for committing adultery or cut off people's arms for stealing because we know that it is God who gives judgement of man's sin and not his fellow man!

No man has any right to take the life of another man on account of sin because WE HAVE ALL SINNED and it is only before God that we stand or fall for our sin. God is our Judge, not Man; Any man who makes himself the judge with respect of taking a man's life for sin committed is is putting himself in the position of God!

God's original plan was not for man to kill man but to live in harmony. That was why he gave the commandments 'THOU SHALT NOT KILL'and LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS YOURSELF. It is not for man to kill man for committing sin! That standard has not changed! THE SPIRIT OF GOD HELPS US TO KEEP HIS LAWS - THE LAW THAT GIVE US LIFE![/b]




PLEASE REMEMBER: NO ATTACKS; PRESENT ARGUMENTS/EXPLANATIONS IN A CLEAR AND CIVIL MANNER!

seyibrown:

God's original plan was not for man to kill man but to live in harmony. That was why he gave the commandments 'THOU SHALT NOT KILL'and LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS YOURSELF. It is not for man to kill man for committing sin! That standard has not changed! THE SPIRIT OF GOD HELPS US TO KEEP HIS LAWS - THE LAW THAT GIVE US LIFE![/b]
PLEASE REMEMBER: NO ATTACKS; PRESENT ARGUMENTS/EXPLANATIONS IN A CLEAR AND CIVIL MANNER!

you were doing fine in explaining your beliefs,until the last paragraph."thou shall not commit murder" and "love thy neighbor as yourself" are part of the laws of the old testament or what you call the law of sin and death.so why do you follow part of the laws and reject part of the laws?

also did you read this because i had already anticipated your response:

ofcourse seyibrown would tell me Jesus said this:

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.(John 8:7)

True,but Jesus also said this:

The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

SO WHY DID JESUS SAY WHAT HE SAID IN JOHN 8?


the answer can be found here,in the preceeding verses of John 8:7:

They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.


so why were they tempting him?


throughout,the pharisees keep bringing riddles and posers to Jesus.they want to either trap him breaking the law of Moses,or if he (Jesus) enforces it,they will then set him up with the roman authority.Jesus did not have political power,so why would they bring an accused woman for Jesus to punish her if their intentions were pure?Jesus knew that so he gave them the right answer and freed himself from the trap of both the jews and the romans and threw the ball back into their court.so it is wrong to say Jesus changed the law or was actually against enforcing the law based on john 8.

you were doing fine in explaining your beliefs,until the last paragraph."thou shall not commit murder" and "love thy neighbor as yourself" are part of the laws of the old testament or what you call the law of sin and death.so why do you follow part of the laws and reject part of the laws?

[b]It is impossible for any human to fulfil all the Laws of the OLD COVENANT. A COVENANT IS AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN PARTIES. THE OLD COVENANT IS THE IS THE AGREEMENT THE ISRAELITES MADE WITH GOD, CONSENTING TO KEEP THE LAWS GOD GAVE THEM. THE COVENANT IS NOT THE LAW ITSELF, IT IS ONLY THE AGREEMENT. The Israelites did not keep the AGREEMENT WITH GOD, they kept sinning and the consequences of breaking the agreement was that DEATH and CURSES. You will have noticed that there was provision for sin under the old covenant and also punishment. Animals were regularly sacrificed to take away their sins but it still did not take away their sins. The only way to redeem them was A NEW COVENANT because they had defaulted on the old covenant. Under the NEW COVENANT, the blood of Jesus is the once and for all sacrifice for sins so there is no need for the daily sacrifice of rams to take away sins, and the Spirit of God living in our hearts to help us keep the Laws of God is only available under this new covenant.


I extracted the below from an earlier answer on the matter of 'THE LAW' from: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-500505.64.html

The Old Covenant was administered by a carnal priesthood – The Levitical.  This covenant did not enable sinners to receive forgiveness and did not promise eternal life. The wages of their sin was simply death.

Under the Old covenant, the people were required to keep the law in the ‘letter’, not in its spiritual intent. For example ‘Thou shalt not kill’. If you didn’t kill anyone, you would not receive the penalty that was stipulated in the administration of the Old Covenant. Jesus emphasised the spiritual intent in saying anyone angry with his brother without cause is in danger of violation that commandment (Matthew 5: 21 - 22). Under the old law, it was possible to hate someone so much you wanted to kill them, but not kill them because you did not want the penalty murder carried and wanted to pretend you were holy.  It meant such a person was clean outside but dirty inside, following the law to the letter but not the ‘spirit’ (intent) of the law.

The Ten Commandments are the part of the covenant that the Israelites agreed to keep. It is not the covenant itself (Deut 4: 13). Keeping the Ten Commandments equalled keeping The Covenant.  The Ten Commandments undergirded all the laws the Israelites were supposed to obey.

‘The Old Covenant’ and the ‘administration of the Old Covenant’ are obsolete and passing away (Hebrews 8: 13) (Hebrews 8: 7- because of a fault in the Old Covenant: The people were unable/unwilling to keep the Laws. The penalties for not keeping the covenant were too much for them to bear. They had broken it and would reap the consequences. They were finished. Redeeming them necessitated a New Covenant. God promised a New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31 -34).

31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The Old covenant had a civil/carnal administration, the laws were written in ink/on stone, with countless animal sacrifices that did not wash away sins, human priests teaching the laws and administering punishment. The end of those laws are death (Romans 6:23), Paul referred to it as the ‘ministry of death’. The New covenant has a spiritual administration, with its laws written on our hearts, with Jesus as our High priest who offered the once and for all sacrifice for our sins, with the Holy Spirit teaching and correcting us. The New Covenant includes the promise of the Holy Spirit, forgiveness of sins and eternal life. There is also grace.

In short, The Ten commandments are not obsolete; The Old Covenant is; because the New Covenant made in the blood of Jesus for redemption came into force. The New Covenant is a far better deal than the Old Covenant.

[b]Keeping the Ten Commandments equals keeping the Covenant. The Ten Commandments basically instructs to ‘Love God’ and ‘Love our Neighbour’. Jesus explained this in Matthew 22: 34-40

Matthew 22: 34-40
34But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

In loving God and our neighbour (keeping the two commandments referred to in the scripture above), we are fulfilling the Ten Commandments and therefore keeping all the laws which the Ten Commandments cover under the covenant. If we loved God and loved our neighbour, we would not harass, rob, cheat or harm them in anyway; we would not sleep with our neighbours’ wives, despoil their daughters or commit any of the abominations condemned in the ‘Laws of Moses’, because the ‘Laws of God’ are written in our hearts and his Spirit guides us in the right path.


When you accept Christ, you come into the New Covenant. You surrender to God and live by the word of God as transformed by the Holy Spirit. Words have no life-giving power unless backed by Spirit. That is why it is possible to read the Bible from cover to cover/gain a Doctorate in Theology and still not be transformed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I read the second quote and I have already explained that Jesus came to complete the Law by introducing the Spirit of God that helps one keep the Laws of God, and FULFILLING THE PROPHECIES (in the context of 'For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished).  Yes, the Pharisees were tempting Jesus but what Jesus did was to make them realise that they were sinners and could not kill someone esle for committing sin. The pharisees were holy on the outside but not holy on the inside; they kept the law to the 'letter' and not the 'spirit'. You do know that it is the heart that matters before God. There is always a reason why a law is made, and it is only right for all concerned if the law is kept according to the intention of the law-maker (the spirit of the law).


[/b]


I will be happy to try and answer any parts that are not clear or explain further. Thanks.





PLEASE REMEMBER: NO ATTACKS IN THE RELIGIOUS SECTION; PRESENT ARGUMENTS/EXPLANATIONS IN A CLEAR AND CIVIL MANNER!

omoimole:

pls LagosShia, help answer these questions:
1. Who are Amadiyahs?

well i believe Lagoshia as answer your questioned but to add to it they are some Islamic group, and part of the Shuni's

omoimole:


2. Are they muslims? True muslims?

Well i believe no one can say one is a true muslim or not since its only God that know best.

omoimole:


3. Who is Prophet Ahmad?

Well not sure am Familiar with that and since i would not know everything but i believe that should also be prophet Mahammad