samuk:


[s]You can't nitpick the sources that suits you. The historical sources that said the Ooni was a descendant of mere shrine keeper is one of the biggest Yoruba historian if not the biggest source of Yoruba history.
You are happy to quote Egharevba to support your Benin history but would want to refute Yoruba biggest historian, Johnson, on Yoruba history.
You can't pick and choose.
Yoruba Kiriji war was named after the sounds of the almighty Benin guns.[/s]

Which historical source?

Experts have examined that same source you call historical and have concluded that such accounts are audio accounts.

And I have referenced R. C. C. Law for example.

Rest!

SilverSniper:


It's not a lie - I remember it distinctly being different from the standard or most popular account from Johnson and involving this detail about Ajaka - and I did mean "sent' initially not "left"; I didn't mean to indicate that he was with Ajaka at Oyo and left him there so that was just poor phrasing on my part I should have just said he left the Oyo monarchy to his son Ajaka rather than saying "left Ajaka to rule in Oyo" as if he had taken Ajaka with him to Oyo and then left him there (which isn't what I meant).

Okay, it's not left again, it's sent. Lol.

Anyways, such absurd account remains audio until you provide evidence.


What remains therefore is the account that Oranmiyan is the first Alaafin Oyo.

Thus Alaafin is superior to Oba Ubinu.

TAO11:


(1)Left Benin, went back to Ife, then sends Ajaka to go and rule over a kingdom which is not yet founded.?? ?? .... Isn't God wonderful??

(2) Or was it before going to Benin at all?? ??Which means that Alaafin is still superior.

(3) However, you had stated earlier that this account you're talking of says he was with Ajaka in Oyo but later left Ajaka to be king at Oyo.

Did Oranmiyan leave Ajaka at Oyo or dis Oranmiyan send Ajaka to Oyo.

Which one of these two contradictioms does this your audio account say?? ??



I pardon you laughable contradiction (a clear indication of your lie). I'm sure you never saw it coming.

I therefore ask you to decide on which one of these 2 contradictions you are searching your evidence for.

But until then, your account remains an audio account.

The account of Oranmiyan being the first Alaafin therefore remains unchallenged by anything.

Thus, Alaafin remains superior to Oba Ubinu.

So the Alaafin once begged the Oba of Benin to send army to come and save him from other Yoruba tribes.

He even said previous Alaafin used to pay tributes to Benin.

I need to get myself these books on history of Yoruba, they sound very interesting.

Cc gregyboy

samuk:


Ife was not the only place people went for Oracle in the past.

Oghene could have been any of those other numerous places.

Ogané is the Portuguese rendering of the actual indigenous Benin word to describe this "most powerful monarch."

In other words a certain name in Edo language (??) became rendered in Portuguese as Ogane.

Another example of European rendering is a Latin rendering of this same indigenous Benin word as Orguene, as seen on a 1525 map of Africa.

So what actually is the indigenous Benin word which is rendered in Portuguese and Latin as Ogane and Orguene??

By paying a special careful attention to the sounds, the Bini word Oghene seems to be the most plausible original Bini word which the Europeans attempted to render in their own tongues.

But did the ancient Binis ever use the word "Oghene" in relation to the "Ooni of Ife"??

The answer is a loud YES.

Starting with the most recent of the two evidences I will cite to prove this foregoing claim:

(a) In his "May 2004 The Benin-Ife Comnection", Omo N'Oba Erediauwa II noted emphatically that Oduduwa (who was the Ooni of Ife during his days) was known by the Benin people as Oghene n'Uhe.

Refer to the link below for "Oghene n'Uhe" in Oba Erediauwa II's May 2004 work: https://www.edo-nation.net/erediauwa1.htm

(b) Citing different instances of Ife's political influence as exercised through the Ifa cult, Robin Horton alludes to a Benin tradition in his 1979 "Ancient Ife: A Reassessment" as follows:

"Yet another tradition, this time from Benin, tells how the oracle of the Oghene of Uhe ("Oni of Ife" ) forewarned the Oba of Benin of impending calamity a few years before the disastrous encounter with the British."

Reference:
Robin Horton, "Ancient Ife: A Reassessment", Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol 9. No. 4 (June 1979), p.124.


It therefore becomes clear at this point that the "Ooni of Ife" was known in ancient Benin as "Oghene" --- a 'name' which in European rendering became Ogane, Orguene, etc.

TAO11:


Okay, it's not left again, it's sent. Lol.

Anyways, such absurd account remains audio until you provide evidence.


What remains therefore is the account that Oranmiyan is the first Alaafin Oyo.

Thus Alaafin is superior to Oba Ubinu.

I added an edit after looking back at my posts and it seems I didn't even say that the account claimed he had brought Ajaka along with him, you just interpreted it that way (which is understandable). And like I said, I will look for the account I read.

TAO11:


Which historical source?

Experts have examined that same source you call historical and have concluded that such accounts are audio accounts.

And I have referenced R. C. C. Law for example.

Rest!

I guess later day revisionist experts like yourself. Johnson stands as a pillar of Yoruba history.

SilverSniper:


I added an edit after looking back at my posts and it seems I didn't even say that the account claimed he had brought Ajaka along with him, you just interpreted it that way (which is understandable). And like I said, I will look for the account I read.

C'mon!! Poor damage control.

So, he was first alone at Oyo as what?


Anyways, your account rwmains audio account unless you can provide evidence.

And The account that Oranmiyan was the first Alaafin rwmains unchallenged.

Thus Alaafin is superior to Oba ubinu.

TAO11:


R.C.C. Law and your alter ego (if not you yourself) called such account about the Ooni as myths, fabrications, etc.

Oga prove benin and ife had a connection without using oral account use other available source apart from written record, i will allow you use Portuguese writing record, but we have already disproven the fact that ogene was never ife so in your Portuguese account that should be excluded


The igala benin war was documented in both art and writing record so we believe it happend

500yrs of Portuguese trading with benin they never saw or wrote on ife and benin connections thats have a melininum years

They wrote about eko, they wrote about owo, akure, igala but never ife

Why

Prove it, there was a connection

It seems you yorubas are using edo history to popularized your dead history and it is not working anymore we don wise
..

If you can't prove benin an Ife connection then

Words like oba, gods like olokun etc, words like benin were all indigenous


Am waiting for you to prove it


See owo art work that have semblance with benin Art because we brought it to them and thought them the art


Atleast you are seeing our artwork in owo having a carbon copy of benin artwork

But the history that says ife thought benin artwork and yet we cant find any similar artwork between those party

Unless you want to prove otherwise


In the ancient times nupe, igala, ife-owo art, owo-benin art the whole of Northern nigeria were all skilled in artwork but this artwork skilled were all different in style the artwork similar to the benin artwork is nupe


Prove it to me ife introduce artwork to benin
Using factual evidence and not writing document

Cc samuk
Davidnazee


Image 1 0wo- benin art
Image 2 nupe art
Image 3 owo - ife art

TAO11:

Ogané is the Portuguese rendering of the actual indigenous Benin word to describe this "most powerful monarch."

In other words a certain name in Edo language (??) became rendered in Portuguese as Ogane.

Another example of European rendering is a Latin rendering of this same indigenous Benin word as Orguene, as seen on a 1525 map of Africa.

So what actually is the indigenous Benin word which is rendered in Portuguese and Latin as Ogane and Orguene??

By paying a special careful attention to the sounds, the Bini word Oghene seems to be the most plausible original Bini word which the Europeans attempted to render in their own tongues.

But did the ancient Binis ever use the word "Oghene" in relation to the "Ooni of Ife"??

The answer is a loud YES.

Starting with the most recent of the two evidences I will cite to prove this foregoing claim:

(a) In his "May 2004 The Benin-Ife Comnection", Omo N'Oba Erediauwa II noted emphatically that Oduduwa (who was the Ooni of Ife during his days) was known by the Benin people as Oghene n'Uhe.

Refer to the link below for "Oghene n'Uhe" in Oba Erediauwa II's May 2004 work: https://www.edo-nation.net/erediauwa1.htm

(b) Citing different instances of Ife's political influence as exercised through the Ifa cult, Robin Horton alludes to a Benin tradition in his 1979 "Ancient Ife: A Reassessment" as follows:

"Yet another tradition, this time from Benin, tells how the oracle of the Oghene of Uhe ("Oni of Ife" ) forewarned the Oba of Benin of impending calamity a few years before the disastrous encounter with the British."

Reference:
Robin Horton, "Ancient Ife: A Reassessment", Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol 9. No. 4 (June 1979), p.124.


It therefore becomes clear at this point that the "Ooni of Ife" was known in ancient Benin as "Oghene" --- a 'name' which in European rendering became Ogane, Orguene, etc.

None of your sources have shown that the Yorubas used the word Oghene at anytime in their history, unless you are telling us, Ife used to speak the Edo language.

samuk:


I guess later day revisionist experts like yourself. Johnson stands as a pillar of Yoruba history.

Johnson collected the accounts around, no doubt.

The point here (which appears to be bigger than you) is not that Johnson didn't collect such.

What experts like Professor R.C.C. Law has submitted after his examinimg the sources is that such account were fabricated by their source as a means of political propaganda. They have no substance.


Now, crawl back in reverse mode i to your creepy hole.

samuk:


None of your sources have shown that the Yorubas whose the word Oghene at anytime in their history, unless you are telling us, Ife used to speak the Edo language.

Do you have problem reading?

Where does the account say Yoruba call Ooni Oghene?

The evidence simply talks about what the Edos call the Ooni of Ife.

Oghene

gregyboy:

[s]Oga prove benin and ife had a connection without using oral account use other available source apart from written record, i will allow you use Portuguese writing record, but we have already disproven the fact that ogene was never ife so in your Portuguese account that should be excluded
The igala benin war was documented in both art and writing record so we believe it happend

500yrs of Portuguese trading with benin they never saw or wrote on ife and benin connections thats have a melininum years
They wrote about eko, they wrote about owo, akure, igala but never ife
Why
Prove it, there was a connection
It seems you yorubas are using edo history to popularized your dead history and it is not working anymore we don wiseIf you can't prove benin an Ife connection thenWords like oba, gods like olokun etc, words like benin were all indigenousAm waiting for you to prove it

See owo art work that have semblance with benin Art because we brought it to them and thought them the art
Atleast you are seeing our artwork in owo having a carbon copy of benin artwork
But the history that says ife thought benin artwork and yet we cant find any similar artwork between those party
Unless you want to prove otherwise
In the ancient times nupe, igala, ife-owo art, owbenin art the whole of Northern nigeria were all skilled in artwork but this artwork skilled were all different in style the artwork similar to the benin artwork is nupe
Prove it to me ife introduce artwork to benin
Using factual evidence and not writing document
Cc samuk
Davidnazee[/s]

Go away, let your parents talk to me.

TAO11:


Do you have problem reading?

Where does the account say Yoruba call Ooni Oghene?

The evidence simply talks about what the Edos call the Ooni of Ife.

Oghene

If the Benin can pronounce Oranmiyan, oranmila and other Yoruba words and names of that time why call Ife or Ooni Oghene and not by the name the Yoruba call him.

Oghene was not a word ever heard in Ife.

You guys and your bias sources were desperately trying to linked Ife and Ooni to Oghene.

samuk:

If the Benin can pronounce Oranmiyan, oranmila and other Yoruba words and names of that time why call Ife or Ooni Oghene and not by the name the Yoruba call him.

Oghene was not a word ever heard in Ife.

You're wondering why they regarded him as God??

Okay, why call him God is an interesting question.

But did they??

The evidence I have pointed out says yes.


So, if that demeans you and your heritage some how, then engage the evidence.

TAO11:


Johnson collected the accounts around, no doubt.

The point here (which appears to be bigger than you) is not that Johnson didn't collect such.

What experts like Professor R.C.C. Law has submitted after his examinimg the sources is that such account were fabricated by their source as a means of political propaganda. They have no substance.


Now, crawl back in reverse mode i to your creepy hole.

Sorry, I thought you just lambasted SilverSniper, when he suggested the same about Johnson.

You are now speaking from both sides of your mouth.

TAO11:


You're wondering why they regarded him as God??

Okay, why call him God is an interesting question.

But did they??

The evidence I have pointed out says yes.


So, if that demeans you and your heritage some how, then engage the evidence.

They couldn't call him by the Yoruba word for God.

If they were able to pronounce Oranmiyan and Oranmila why not call him by the Yoruba name for God.

No evidence to show the word Oghene is a Yoruba word.

Ife did not speak Edo language or did they?

Only Yoruba bias sources will ascribe Oghene to Ooni or Ife. The same way your sources have be claiming Benin artworks that describe other tribes.

samuk:


Sorry, I thought you just lambasted SilverSniper, when he suggested the same about Johnson.

You are now speaking from both sides of your mouth.

Historical evidence (which he admits) exist in that case to corroborate what not only Johnson but also Crowther had documented.

Historical evidence shows that Oyo gained military and political ascendancy over other kingdoms including Benin kingdom. And he accept that.


So? Johnson and Crowther independently recording account of tribute from Benin to Oyo is therefore corroborated by such widely attested fact.


In the case of the Ooni, it's the other way around.

Overwhelming account all over Yorubaland refute such few one-off traditions.


And it is not just me who see this clearly like this, experts too do, Professor R. C.C. Law

You need to bring your brain to discussions like this and stop comparing chalk and cheese.

samuk:


They couldn't call him by the Yoruba word for God.

If they were able to pronounce Oranmiyan and Oranmila why not call him by the Yoruba name for God.

No evidence to show the word Oghene is a Yoruba word.

Ife did not speak Edo language or did they?

Only Yoruba bias sources will ascribe Oghene to Ooni or Ife. The way your sources have be claiming Benin artworks that describe other tribes.

Edo people are Edo.

Yoruba don't call him God.

Again, your skull seem to be very thick.

Oghene is what the Edos call the Ooni.

No where did the evidence say Oghene is what the Yoruba call the Ooni.



Engage the evidence rather than beat about the bush.


And the sources I added were two:

Omo N'Oba Erediauwa and Robin Horton both of whom are Yoruba biased sources, right?

TAO11:


Go away, let your parents talk to me.

Stinky cunt

gregyboy:



Stinky cunt

Your mom's

TAO11:


Historical evidence (which he admits) exist in that case to corroborate what not only Johnson but also Crowther had documented.

Historical evidence shows that Oyo gained military and political ascendancy over other kingdoms including Benin kingdom. And he accept that.


So? Johnson and Crowther independently recording account of tribute from Benin to Oyo is therefore corroborated by such widely attested fact.


In the case of the Ooni, it's the other way around.

Overwhelming account all over Yorubaland refute such few one-off traditions.


And it is not just me who see this clearly like this, experts too do, Professor R. C.C. Law

You need to bring your brain to discussions like this and stop comparing chalk and cheese.

Can you read what you have written?

Your sources agreed with the part that suits he and discount the part that he didn't like.

Sounds like a typical Yoruba influenced revisionist.

samuk:


Can you read what you have written?

Your sources agreed with the part that suits he and discount the part that he didn't like.

Sounds like a typical Yoruba influenced revisionist.

Those are too much for your brain to processes, I know.

Come back to read it again when your head is cooled down from flogging.


SilverSniper got the gist and backed off on the point.


Never you with a thick skull tho.

TAO11:


Those are too much for your brain to processes, I know.

Come back to read it again when your head is cooled down from flogging.


SilverSniper got the gist and backed off on the point.


Never you with a thick skull tho.

Insults will not save you now, you can't retort to insults after losing the debate.

I said it before that there were more to the Benin/Yoruba history that you guys would like to propagate.

Silversniper is way out of your league. Unless you can show me where he came down to your gutter level in spite of your provocative languages and insults.

I am ordering Johnson books on history of Yoruba.

1. Ooni was nothing but a descendant of shrine keeper

2. The so much talked about Yoruba Kiriji war got
the name from the almighty sounds of Benin guns

3 . Alaafin once begged the Oba of Benin to come save him from other Yoruba tribes

4. Alaafin once paid tributes to Benin.

How interesting.

samuk:


Insults will not save you now, you can't retort to insults after losing the debate.
I said it before that there were more to the Benin/Yoruba history that you guys would like to propagate.
Silversniper is way out of your league. Unless you can show me where he came down to your gutter level in spite of your provocative languages and insults.
I am ordering Johnson books on history of Yoruba.
1. Ooni was nothing but a descendant of shrine keeper
2. The so much talked about Yoruba Kiriji war got
the name from the almighty sounds of Benin guns
3 . Alaafin once begged the Oba of to save him
from his other Yoruba tribes
4. Alaafin once paid tributes to Benin.
How interesting.

I will never insult anyone who proceeds with some decorum

He made his points with his best evidence (what I love)

And I gave my superior submission (with evidence)

He eventually backed off on his points on: Crowther and Johnson account (where I showed that Oba of Benin once paid tributes to the Alaafin); Orun Oba Ado, etc.

We both agreed that the apocryphal accounts on the Ooni are fabricated myths.


The only point which he hasn't backed off on yet is his claim that there is a Yoruba or Oyo tradition which claims Ajaka to be the first Alaafin of Oyo --- a claim which he is still searching for evidence for.


Comparing this to you and your ilks. Gosh! --- empty barrels.

TAO11:


Your mom's

That should be your mom he had passed are smelly cunt to her daughter


You cant help the truth you began to result to insult

Were the yorubas who accolade this she goat for a job well done he has now resulted to insult in place of fact


gomojam
DonCandido
Amujale
macof
Sewgon79
lx3as
Opiletool
nisai
2fine2fast
Aphrygian
Olu317
Obalufon
geosegun

gregyboy:


That should be your mom he had passed are smelly cunt to her daughter


You cant help the truth you began to result to insult

Were the yorubas who accolade this she goat for a job well done he has now resulted to insult in place of fact

I know you are pained cos I ignored you.

Little boy, talking to you is a waste of my time. I can't even manage.

Your skull is thick and you can't string words together.

You don't even listen to advice.

You won't help yourself despite urging you severally to get yourself a copy of Queen Primer

Look up at your comment, you used "he" for a woman.

I have a screenshot already in case you edit it.


If you need to learn anything from me, let your parents call me.
Smh

TAO11:


I will never insult anyone who proceeds with some decorum

He made his points with his best evidence (what I love)

And I gave my superior submission (with evidence)

He eventually backed off on his points on: Crowther and Johnson account (where I showed that Oba of Benin once paid tributes to the Alaafin); Orun Oba Ado, etc.

We both agreed that the apocryphal accounts on the Ooni are fabricated myths.


The only point which he hasn't backed off on yet is his claim that there is a Yoruba or Oyo tradition which claims Ajaka to be the first Alaafin of Oyo --- a claim which he is still searching for evidence for.


Comparing this to you and your ilks. Gosh! --- empty barrels.

Good to hear it directly from you that Silversniper is way out of you agbero and gutter level.

Go back to your exchanges and show me where he for once insult or disrespected you, despite your lack of manners, decorum and decency.

You told us here that the Benin celebrate Oduduwa festival, why will the Benin call the festival Oduduwa and not Oghene festival if indeed Oduduwa/Ooni was the Oghene referred to in your fake sources.

samuk:


[s]Good to hear it directly from you that Silversniper his way out of you agbero and gutter level.

Go back to your exchanges and show me where he for once insult or disrespected you, despite your lack of manners, decorum and decency.

You told us here that the Benin celebrate Oduduwa festival, why will the Benin call the festival Oduduwa and not Oghene festival if indeed Oduduwa/Ooni was the Oghene referred to in your fake sources[/s].

No where did I mention the first lines of your comment.

I am about to ask you to go away and let your parents talk to me instead.


"Oduduwa" is a specific person -- a proper noun.


"Oghene" as used (in this context) by the Binis is what the Binis call the rulerS (plural) of Ife --- (including Oduduwa himself) not just one person.

TAO11:


No where did I mention the first lines of your comment.

I am about to ask you to go away and let your parents talk to me instead.


"Oduduwa" is a specific person -- a proper noun.


"Oghene" as used (in this context) by the Binis is what the Binis call the rulerS (plural) of Ife --- (including Oduduwa himself) not just one person.

So you now have a list of the rulerS (plural) of Ife Benin call Oghene (God) other than Oduduwa.

Oghene is an Edo word for singular not plural.

And for some reasons it made sense to you that the Benin will refer to a living person as God and not by their names or titles.

In the 10th century the Benin remember a specific Oduduwa in Ife, he was not Oghene then but by late 15th century the Benin forgot the name and title of rulers of Ife and told the Portuguese Oghene.

Or maybe the Benin Just forget to call Oduduwa Oghene(God). But they remember the Yoruba names of other Yoruba gods and Oracle such as Oranmila.

Or the Yoruba hadn't invented a word for God then, so the Benin had no choice but to use the Edo word for God (Oghene)

Same Benin people that have already achieved (the moat) what no human race in history had achieved on planet earth at that time.

You can continue with own version of Benin/Ife history that suits you.

I have other aspects of Benin/Yoruba history I will be exploring thanks to historians like Johnson.

TAO11:

Ogané is the Portuguese rendering of the actual indigenous Benin word to describe this "most powerful monarch."

In other words a certain name in Edo language (??) became rendered in Portuguese as Ogane.

Another example of European rendering is a Latin rendering of this same indigenous Benin word as Orguene, as seen on a 1525 map of Africa.

So what actually is the indigenous Benin word which is rendered in Portuguese and Latin as Ogane and Orguene??

By paying a special careful attention to the sounds, the Bini word Oghene seems to be the most plausible original Bini word which the Europeans attempted to render in their own tongues.

But did the ancient Binis ever use the word "Oghene" in relation to the "Ooni of Ife"??

The answer is a loud YES.

Starting with the most recent of the two evidences I will cite to prove this foregoing claim:

(a) In his "May 2004 The Benin-Ife Comnection", Omo N'Oba Erediauwa II noted emphatically that Oduduwa (who was the Ooni of Ife during his days) was known by the Benin people as Oghene n'Uhe.

Refer to the link below for "Oghene n'Uhe" in Oba Erediauwa II's May 2004 work: https://www.edo-nation.net/erediauwa1.htm

(b) Citing different instances of Ife's political influence as exercised through the Ifa cult, Robin Horton alludes to a Benin tradition in his 1979 "Ancient Ife: A Reassessment" as follows:

"Yet another tradition, this time from Benin, tells how the oracle of the Oghene of Uhe ("Oni of Ife" ) forewarned the Oba of Benin of impending calamity a few years before the disastrous encounter with the British."

Reference:
Robin Horton, "Ancient Ife: A Reassessment", Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol 9. No. 4 (June 1979), p.124.


It therefore becomes clear at this point that the "Ooni of Ife" was known in ancient Benin as "Oghene" --- a 'name' which in European rendering became Ogane, Orguene, etc.

Are you going to pretend that you don't know oghene means supreme God in some edoid languages?

How can a benin ex convict izobuwa be a supreme God?

darfay:


Are you going to pretend that you don't know oghene means supreme God in some edoid languages?

How can a benin ex convict izobuwa be a supreme God?

Do you mind this clown. Well, some of us are here to entertain ourselves.

If the Benin had told the Portuguese about any Oghene, that Oghene would have been situated amongst the Edoid people that use that name for their God.

Benin would have referred to Ooni by his correct Yoruba name and title because they refer to other Yoruba gods and Oracle such as Oranmila by their Yoruba names.

They didn't invent Edo words or names for these Yoruba gods and Oracles.

darfay:


Are you going to pretend that you don't know oghene means supreme God in some edoid languages?

How can a benin ex convict izobuwa be a supreme God?

That reminds me

Oghene means god in estako

Oghene means god in urohobo


Oghene, ohen means priest in benin a very high priest