OgboAto:
.

I am going to assume you're Edo.

First of all, if you compare the inputs of some of your people like Davidnazee, you'd see that you should not even think of the Yoruba commenters as illiterate or any adjective of that nature. Such terms should be reserved for the few poorly educated Edo whose only basis for engaging others is emotional from which they throw incoherent fits. I thin it is just you and Silversnipe who have been entirely different and made the back & forth worth it.

Secondly, the Bini didn't fight to 'protect' the peoples of eastern Yorubaland. They fought to protect their trade routes and their little colonial expansion into Yorubaland. They are records of an on & off battles between the Bini and the few towns in eastern Yorubaland they occupied.

Brb.

He is Edo --- One of the Edos who have been attending my remote learning classes here. They never paid a dime tho.

OgboAto:
.

I am going to assume you're Edo.

First of all, if you compare the inputs of some of your people like Davidnazee, you'd see that you should not even think of the Yoruba commenters as illiterate or any adjective of that nature. Such terms should be reserved for the few poorly educated Edo whose only basis for engaging others is emotional from which they throw incoherent fits. I thin it is just you and Silversnipe who have been entirely different and made the back & forth worth it.

Secondly, the Bini didn't fight to 'protect' the peoples of eastern Yorubaland. They fought to protect their trade routes and their little colonial expansion into Yorubaland. They are records of an on & off battles between the Bini and the few towns in eastern Yorubaland they occupied.

Brb.

I am not comfortable throwing insults around, if you have the patience to scroll back to the very first reply I got from TAO11, she replied me with an insult which I warned her about and she apologised.

If you also looked at her initial replies to Silversniper, she was very provocative, condescending and insultive, she only tuned it down after I called her out on it.

There are a enough blames to go around on all sides.

My worry is, those that would have like to make genuine contributions and are here to learn new informations may be discouraged to do so.

Your reference about Benin having little colonial expansion into Yoruba land does not negate the fact I stated that these former little colonies as you put it, may still have people of Benin descendants that may be fighting themselves here thinking they are different people.

This was my way of asking everyone, albeit diplomatically to shield their swords and tuned down the foul languages and examine the submissions and evidences.

Being able to string some sentences in English does not neccessarily makes one educated and intelligent. It's the thinking ability that makes one intelligent.

My point is, to be careful how we ascribe education and cleverness to people based on ethnic biases even though cleverness and being educated can be put in context.

samuk:


I am not comfortable throwing insults around, if you have the patience to scroll back to the very first reply I got from TAO11, she replied me with an insult which I warned her about and she apologised.

If you also looked at her initial replies to Silversniper, she was very provocative, condescending and insultive, she only tuned it down after I called her out on it.

There are a enough blames to go around on all sides.

My worry is, those that would have like to make genuine contributions and are here to learn new informations may be discouraged to do so.

Your reference about Benin having little colonial expansion into Yoruba land does not negate the fact I stated that these former little colonies as you put it, may still have people of Benin descendants that may be fighting themselves here thinking they are different people.

This was my way of asking everyone, albeit diplomatically to shield their swords and tuned down the foul languages and examine the submissions and evidences.

Being able to string some sentences in English does not neccessarily makes one educated and intelligent. It's the thinking ability that makes one intelligent.

My point is, to be careful how we ascribe education and cleverness to people based on ethnic biases even though cleverness and being educated can be put in context.

Shut and stop forming civil and cool after having been dragged severelly


Civility is beyond forest people. You acted insolently and you were dragged severelly for it. Do you need to be reminded?

It is only a question of a little time before OgboAto realizes what animal you are.

All he needs to bring out the Edo dog in you is to feed you with raw truth that you all hate to hear.

Truth like Oduduwa is a full-blooded Ife-Yoruba man; truth like "Izoduwa/Idoduwa/Imadoduwa" are the fictitious figment of the imagination of the 1970s Edo propagandist intelligentsia.

Truths like the Oba monarchy was introduced from Ife to scrap the "indigenous" Ogiso system.

Truths like the decapitated heads of your Obas being buried at Orun Oba Ado on every third reign.

Truth like your Oba regarding the Oonis of Ife as Oghene.

You all hate to here these for your weak self-esteem, but yet you all are quick to call others names.

You all won't even mind turning ironically on your Obas and call them names because they agree with our submissions. I have seen some of you do this. And I promise they'll be punished for it.

If you want to be civil, then be consistent. Not when it is only convinient for you to be so.

Nobody get monopoly of craze. I am educated doesn't mean I will sit back and watch you 'drool' all day.



If you must really bargain for fair treatment, then it must come with an unreserved apology for all your insolence, impropriety, and incivility. I am waiting.

TAO11:

Shut and stop forming civil and cool after having been dragged severelly


Civility is beyond forest people. You acted insolently and you were dragged severelly for it. Do you need to be reminded?

It is only a question of a little time before OgboAto realizes what animal you are.

All he needs to bring out the Edo dog in you is to feed you with raw truth that you all hate to hear.

Truth like Oduduwa is a full-blooded Ife-Yoruba man; truth like "Izoduwa/Idoduwa/Imadoduwa" are the fictitious figment of the imagination of the 1970s Edo propagandist intelligentsia.

Truths like the Oba monarchy was introduced from Ife to scrap the "indigenous" Ogiso system.

Truths like the decapitated heads of your Obas being buried at Orun Oba Ado on every third reign.

Truth like your Oba regarding the Oonis of Ife as Oghene.

You all hate to here these for your weak self-esteem, but yet you all are quick to call others names.

You all won't even mind turning ironically on your Obas and call them names because they agree with our submissions. I have seen some of you do this. And I promise they'll be punished for it.

If you want to be civil, then be consistent. Not when it is only convinient for you to be so.

Nobody get monopoly of craze. I am educated doesn't mean I will sit back and watch you 'drool' all day.



If you must really bargain for fair treatment, then it must come with an unreserved apology for all your insolence, impropriety, and incivility. I am waiting.

Hopefully, OgboAto will be able to make for himself who the animal his around here.

I couldn't read beyond your insults because I don't have appetite for such.

Please look for your type to engage further.

It's a relief to know that there is someone like OgboAto around.

At least he hasn't shown himself to be on the same level like the rest of you so far.

OgboAto:
.

I am going to assume you're Edo.

First of all, if you compare the inputs of some of your people like Davidnazee, you'd see that you should not even think of the Yoruba commenters as illiterate or any adjective of that nature. Such terms should be reserved for the few poorly educated Edo whose only basis for engaging others is emotional from which they throw incoherent fits. I thin it is just you and Silversnipe who have been entirely different and made the back & forth worth it.

Secondly, the Bini didn't fight to 'protect' the peoples of eastern Yorubaland. They fought to protect their trade routes and their little colonial expansion into Yorubaland. They are records of an on & off battles between the Bini and the few towns in eastern Yorubaland they occupied.
Brb.

Bro, I think you must be very firm and especially clear with these lots on the aspect of Benin interaction on the Eastern Yoruba frontiers.

Their imaginations are so wild and twisted (for their delusions of grandeur) that one of them already began --- as is typical of them --- to assume "colonies". Gosh! They can't be helped.

A closer look at the evidence and sources in the light of subsequently clearer understanding of Benin and Eastern Yoruba history shows that the Benin relationships at the the Eastern Yoruba kingdoms are deeper and more complex than some authors have portrayed in the past.

For example, the Owo kingdom (prior to the reign of Olowo Osogboye) and the Benin kingdom had a sort of bilateral treaty. It was so deep that an Owo prince would live in the Benin palace until he became grown up and ready to rule. Osogboye at least did as a prince.

According to the Oore of Otun-Ekiti whom Professor Akintoye interviewed in the 1970s, the true picture was said to be that the Ekiti kingdoms and the Benin kingdom did not see each other as enemies.

He said clashes with Benin were very few and very far between that no generation of Ekiti people witnessed two of such, and that most generations saw none.

The two kingdoms regarded each other as "brothers", and he emphatically stressed that paying tribute to the Oba of Benin was out of the question. He also stressed that forming a coalition to fight him was also out of the question.

In Ado and Akure where really bloody battles occured, there were special factors at work far away and distinct from the usually imagined one-sided Benin territorial expansionist narrative.

[They have a similar kind of one-sided account for Lagos too forgetting that two kingdoms are involved here, and that we also have our own indigenous account known in academia as the Lagos account (aka the Awori account) which contradicts their own account on very important details (e.g. on the identity of Aṣípa as an Awori prince from Isheri who is of direct Ife royal descent). R. Smith (1969) contains both this Awori account and the Benin Account. S. Akintoye (2010) also does]

The context of the Ado, Akure and even the Lagos bloody clashes were trade/commercial activities between the autochtonous people on one hand, and the Benin resident trading community/other minority resident trading communities on another hand.

There were other minor skirmishes, kidnappings, clashes, etc. no doubt --- some clashes of which Benin troops were routed and their military chiefs slaughtered.


You may refer to to S. Akintoye's "A History of the Yoruba People", (2010) Chapter 11 on "The Frontier Effect".

This encyclopedic research work of about 3 decades examines the evidences more closely using the products of the latest research on the subject.

And it has immense invaluable contributions from a galaxy of eminent scholars and pathfinder in the field of African History such as:

(1) Dr. J. F. Ade Ajayi (Emeritus Professor of History, University of Ibadan)

(2) Dr. Elisee Soumonni (Professor of History, Department of African History and Archaeology, National University of Benin at Abomey-Calavi, Benin-Republic)

(3) Dr. R. C. C. Law (Professor of African History, Stirling University, Scotland)

(4)Dr. Toyin Falaola (The Frances Higginbotham Nalle Centennial Professor in History, University of Texas at Austin)

(5) Dr Funso Afolayan (Associate Professor of History and African Studies, University of New Hampshire, Durham)

(6) Dr. Adebayo Oyebade (Professor of History, Tennesse State University, Nashville).


Cheers!

samuk:


Hopefully, OgboAto will be able to make for himself who the animal his around here.

I couldn't read beyond your insults because I don't have appetite for such.

Please look for your type to engage further.

It's a relief that you gave someone like OgboAto around.

At least he hasn't shown himself to be on the same level like the rest of you so far.

And such are the replies of those who unbelievably got way way much than they had originally bargained for in terms of intellectual and savagery competence.

They spin the narrative and take the victim personae.

And such are in other words called hypocritical cowards.

TAO11:


Bro, I think you must be very firm and especially clear with these lots on the aspect of Benin interaction on the Eastern Yoruba frontiers.

Their imaginations are so wild and twisted (for their delusions of grandeur) that one of them already began --- as is typical of them --- to assume "colonies". Gosh! They can't be helped.

A closer look at the evidence and sources in the light of subsequently clearer understanding of Benin and Eastern Yoruba history shows that the Benin relationships at the the Eastern Yoruba kingdoms are deeper and more complex than some authors have portrayed in the past.

For example, the Owo kingdom (prior to the reign of Olowo Osogboye) and the Benin kingdom had a sort of bilateral treaty. It was so deep that an Owo prince would live in the Benin palace until he became grown up and ready to rule. Osogboye at least did as a prince.

According to the Oore of Otun-Ekiti whom Professor Akintoye interviewed in the 1970s, the true picture was said to be that the Ekiti kingdoms and the Benin kingdom did not see each other as enemies.

He said clashes with Benin were very few and very far between that no generation of Ekiti people witnessed two of such, and that most generations saw none.

The two kingdoms regarded each other as "brothers", and he emphatically stressed that paying tribute to the Oba of Benin was out of the question. He also stressed that forming a coalition to fight him was also out of the question.

In Ado and Akure where really bloody battles occured, there were special factors at work far away and distinct from the usually imagined one-sided Benin territorial expansionist narrative.

[They have a similar kind of one-sided account for Lagos too forgetting that two kingdoms are involved here, and that we also have our own indigenous account known in academia as the Lagos account (aka the Awori account) which contradicts their own account on very important details (e.g. on the identity of Aṣípa as an Awori prince from Isheri who is of direct Ife royal descent). R. Smith (1969) contains both this Awori account and the Benin Account. S. Akintoye (2010) also does]

The context of the Ado, Akure and even the Lagos bloody clashes were trade/commercial activities between the autochtonous people on one hand, and the Benin resident trading community/other minority resident trading communities on another hand.

There were other minor skirmishes, kidnappings, clashes, etc. no doubt --- some clashes of which Benin troops were routed and their military chiefs slaughtered.


You may refer to to S. Akintoye's "A History of the Yoruba People", (2010) Chapter 11 on "The Frontier Effect".

This encyclopedic research work of about 3 decades examines the evidences more closely using the products of the latest research on the subject.

And it has immense invaluable contributions from a galaxy of eminent scholars and pathfinder in the field of African History such as:

(1) Dr. J. F. Ade Ajayi (Emeritus Professor of History, University of Ibadan)

(2) Dr. Elisee Soumonni (Professor of History, Department of African History and Archaeology, National University of Benin at Abomey-Calavi, Benin-Republic)

(3) Dr. R. C. C. Law (Professor of African history, Stirling University, Scotland)

(4)Dr. Toyin Falaola (The Frances Higginbotham Nalle Centennial Professor in History, University of Texas at Austin)

(5) Dr Funso Afolayan (Associate Professor of History and African Studies, University of New Hampshire, Durham)

(6) Dr. Adebayo Oyebade (Professor of History, Tennesse State University, Nashville).


Cheers!

If you keep you submission clean and learn not to engage in gutter languages, people with high level of public etiquette may want to engage you with their counter narratives and evidences that you may not be aware of on the subject matter or evidences you may have deliberately overlooked and down played due to your ethnic biases.

We all have our own biases that can affect our submissions, it's then left for the other tribes/audience to examine the various submissions and make their own unbiased independent conclusions.

On your Lagos/Benin relationship you just mentioned, you may not be aware that there was an actual independent eye witness accounts from a European that visited Lagos in 1603 and observed and recorded the proceedings Benin representatives in Lagos and said after the meetings to take decisions, their reports were always sent back to their Overlord in Benin.

I only research this information from the reference Silversniper presented in one of your exchanges. Though his submission was not about Benin/Lagos relationship.

In his piece, captioned Brief History of Lagos Island, Michael Uchebuaku, wrote on Yahoo Contributor Network “However, there is another account of Lagos before 1603 that comes from a Western visitor. In 1603, Andreas Joshua Ulsheimer, a German surgeon, aboard a Dutch merchant ship, visited Lagos. According to his accounts, Lagos was a large frontier town surrounded by a strong fence and inhabited by "none but soldiers and four military commanders, who behave in a very stately manner."

The Lagos visited by Ulsheimer and his trading colleagues nearly four centuries ago was in many ways highly developed. Each day its four commanders came together as a court and each day two envoys were dispatched to take decisions back to their ruler in Benin. To do so, Ulsheimer wrote, was a common practice in all towns under the suzerainty of Benin…

Ulsheimer's accounts seem to confirm Benin oral traditions of conquest and occupation of Lagos during the sixteenth century. How Oba Orhogbua of Benin (1550-1578) occupied the island of Lagos, established a military camp there and from that base waged wars on some people described as rebels against his authority, in the immediate interior. Ulsheimer gives the first account, documenting the transformation of Lagos from fishing camp to a trading centre, and from an autonomous settlement to a Benin tributary. Lagos Lagoon was known to European traders by 1485, when it first appeared on maps, but the town of Lagos was not included.”

TAO11:


Bro, I think you must be very firm and especially clear with these lots on the aspect of Benin interaction on the Eastern Yoruba frontiers.

Their imaginations are so wild and twisted (for their delusions of grandeur) that one of them already began --- as is typical of them --- to assume "colonies". Gosh! They can't be helped.

A closer look at the evidence and sources in the light of subsequently clearer understanding of Benin and Eastern Yoruba history shows that the Benin relationships at the the Eastern Yoruba kingdoms are deeper and more complex than some authors have portrayed in the past.

For example, the Owo kingdom (prior to the reign of Olowo Osogboye) and the Benin kingdom had a sort of bilateral treaty. It was so deep that an Owo prince would live in the Benin palace until he became grown up and ready to rule. Osogboye at least did as a prince.

According to the Oore of Otun-Ekiti whom Professor Akintoye interviewed in the 1970s, the true picture was said to be that the Ekiti kingdoms and the Benin kingdom did not see each other as enemies.

He said clashes with Benin were very few and very far between that no generation of Ekiti people witnessed two of such, and that most generations saw none.

The two kingdoms regarded each other as "brothers", and he emphatically stressed that paying tribute to the Oba of Benin was out of the question. He also stressed that forming a coalition to fight him was also out of the question.

In Ado and Akure where really bloody battles occured, there were special factors at work far away and distinct from the usually imagined one-sided Benin territorial expansionist narrative.

[They have a similar kind of one-sided account for Lagos too forgetting that two kingdoms are involved here, and that we also have our own indigenous account known in academia as the Lagos account (aka the Awori account) which contradicts their own account on very important details (e.g. on the identity of Aṣípa as an Awori prince from Isheri who is of direct Ife royal descent). R. Smith (1969) contains both this Awori account and the Benin Account. S. Akintoye (2010) also does]

The context of the Ado, Akure and even the Lagos bloody clashes were trade/commercial activities between the autochtonous people on one hand, and the Benin resident trading community/other minority resident trading communities on another hand.

There were other minor skirmishes, kidnappings, clashes, etc. no doubt --- some clashes of which Benin troops were routed and their military chiefs slaughtered.


You may refer to to S. Akintoye's "A History of the Yoruba People", (2010) Chapter 11 on "The Frontier Effect".

This encyclopedic research work of about 3 decades examines the evidences more closely using the products of the latest research on the subject.

And it has immense invaluable contributions from a galaxy of eminent scholars and pathfinder in the field of African History such as:

(1) Dr. J. F. Ade Ajayi (Emeritus Professor of History, University of Ibadan)

(2) Dr. Elisee Soumonni (Professor of History, Department of African History and Archaeology, National University of Benin at Abomey-Calavi, Benin-Republic)

(3) Dr. R. C. C. Law (Professor of African History, Stirling University, Scotland)

(4)Dr. Toyin Falaola (The Frances Higginbotham Nalle Centennial Professor in History, University of Texas at Austin)

(5) Dr Funso Afolayan (Associate Professor of History and African Studies, University of New Hampshire, Durham)

(6) Dr. Adebayo Oyebade (Professor of History, Tennesse State University, Nashville).


Cheers!

You have a twisted fantasy about a great Yoruba history over Benin..

There is numerous evidence, both oral and written and witnessed that much of Eastern Yoruba was under the rule of Benin Kingdom. if u like deny it, turn it upside down or shrink it, the fact and proof will always be there.

The treaty Benin had with Owo was obtained after the conquest of Owo by Oba Ewaure the great during the expansion of Benin Kingdom. At a point Owo rebelled and that was when Iken the Benin general was dispatched to Owo to quell the rebellion. According to Egharevba, “After short but severe fighting, they (Owo) surrendered.” Iken himself was later killed, after sending his soldiers, captives and spoils to Benin City.
Ewuare the Great was succeeded in Benin by Ezoti, and Ezoti by Ozolua, who came to the throne about 1481. Shortly thereafter, Ozolua marched on Owe and was surprised that the people capitulated so readily. One of Ozolua’s sons was made the Owa (Olowo) of Owo.

If you like twist the story to make yourself feel good, it will always be quite clear that Benin exercised great authority over Owo. Otherwise, why should it have been necessary for an heir to the throne of Owo, a Yoruba town, to receive his training in the court of an Edo kingdom? Why was it necessary that the Oba of Benin confirm an Olowo on the throne? Furthermore, in his revised manuscripts on the history of Owo, Chief Ashara records that when leopards were killed in the town, their heads were usually sent to Benin, an act of homage.
Even till today, Owo tradition and customs are more similar to Edo than Yoruba even though they identify as yoruba.

OgboAto:
.

I am going to assume you're Edo.

First of all, if you compare the inputs of some of your people like Davidnazee, you'd see that you should not even think of the Yoruba commenters as illiterate or any adjective of that nature. Such terms should be reserved for the few poorly educated Edo whose only basis for engaging others is emotional from which they throw incoherent fits. I thin it is just you and Silversnipe who have been entirely different and made the back & forth worth it.

Secondly, the Bini didn't fight to 'protect' the peoples of eastern Yorubaland. They fought to protect their trade routes and their little colonial expansion into Yorubaland. They are records of an on & off battles between the Bini and the few towns in eastern Yorubaland they occupied.

Brb.

Do you really think you made any sense in your highlighted statement above? when did Benin ever say or assumed that it fought for Yoruba people? It only sometimes settled their internal disputes not fight.. Is there any great power that fight to protect the people of its colonies? did the british fight to protect the people of the colonies? did Oyo fight to protect the people of the colonies? All great powers/occupying force fight to protect their trade routes, their imperial and expansionist agendas..
Benin never said it fought to protect the people of Eastern Yoruba, it was fighting for it's interests when it ravaged all over Eastern Yoruba..

samuk:


If you keep you submission clean and learn not to engage in gutter languages, people with high level of public etiquette may want to engage you with their counter narratives and evidences that you may not be aware of on the subject matter or evidences you may have DELIBERATELY OVERLOOKED AND DOWNPLAYED due to your ETHNIC BIASES.

We all have our own biases that can affect our submissions, it's then left for the other tribes/audience to examine the various submissions and make their own unbiased independent conclusions.

On your Lagos/Benin relationship you just mentioned, you may not be aware that there was an actual independent eye witness accounts from a European that visited Lagos in 1603 and observed and recorded the proceedings there and said after the meetings to take decisions, their reports were always sent back to their Overlord in Benin.

[s]I only research this information from the reference Silversniper presented in one of your exchanges. Though his submission was not about Benin/Lagos relationship.[/s]

In his piece, captioned Brief History of Lagos Island, Michael Uchebuaku, wrote on Yahoo Contributor Network

“However, there is another account of Lagos before 1603 that comes from a Western visitor. In 1603, Andreas Joshua Ulsheimer, a German surgeon, aboard a Dutch merchant ship, visited Lagos. According to his accounts, Lagos was a large frontier town surrounded by a strong fence and inhabited by "none but soldiers and four military commanders, who behave in a very stately manner."

The Lagos visited by Ulsheimer and his trading colleagues nearly four centuries ago was in many ways highly developed.
Each day its four commanders came together as a court and each day two envoys were dispatched to take decisions back to their ruler in Benin.


To do so, Ulsheimer wrote, was a common practice in all towns under the suzerainty of Benin…

First of all, again, stop pretending to be cool and civil. You're not in any way because I know you too. We've had many exchange on this same platform where you rolled over in the mud n@ked. I can literally pull out many instances. Even your comment here still shows traces of your insanity, as I have boldened some of it, despite your pretense of saneness

If you want to put all that behind you and turn over a new leaf going forward, then that's a different question. But to want to comtinue to be the nice guy or victim only after you got served while the game was on is absolutely unacceptable.

Having said that, I knew you will be triggered to hear that that there is a certain account (known in academia as the Lagos account) which debunks the claims of the Benin account that Aṣípa was a son or grandson of the then Oba of Benin.

Again, the Lagos (or Awori) account states clearly and unmistakenly that Aṣípa (the actual paternal progenitor of today's Eko monarchy) was an Awori-Yoruba of Ife royal descent.

In the course of your response you committed two disgraceful logical fallacies, namely:

(1) The Red Herring Fallacy and (2) The Strawman Fallacy.

I will let you find out what those mean.


Moving on ... My key argument on the Lagos/Benin connection were two:

(1) That there were although severe clashes but having absolutely nothing to do with imperial conquest or domination of the authoctonous people. And that rather, these clashes were between the indigenous people (the Aworis on one hand), and the latter resident trading community of Benin et al. on the other hand, over some trade disputes.

(2) That the Eko monarchy was of an indigenous origin via Aṣípa from Isheri who is Awori-Yoruba of Ife royal descent.

In light of these two contentions which I have set out to defend (and which you pretend to be responding to), can you then point out which part of your comment addressed any of these two points let alone debunk them??

(A) Is it where you mentioned that an European visitor to "Lagos" in 1603 (presumably the German Andreas Joshua Ulsheimer) noted that a group of unnamed people sends some reports back to their Benin overlord --- a statement which clearly shows a non-sequitur fallacy, a statement which is UNCLEAR about WHO was sending what reports, and a statement for which you didn't even bother to provide reference??


(B) Is it where you called on SilverSniper for help?? Lol.


(C) Is it the internet review of a certain unknown and hence inconsequential Michael Uchebuaku who LIED of "a strong fence" surrounding his imaginary Lagos??

The most that Joshua Ulsheimer described in his 1603 account was that the "Lagos" he saw was full of diverse traders coming "by water and land", thus corroborating my earlier allusion to the trade-induced conflict between the indigenous people, viz. the Aworis (which R. Smith also mentioned) on one hand vs. the alien resident trading communities (of Benin and others) on the other hand.

The most that Joshua Ulsheimer described which your unknown "authority", Micheal Uchebuaku, noted quite well is that, the Island part of the "Lagos" he visited in 1603 was where the soldiers of the alien community --- led by Binis --- pitched their own tent, as opposed to the autochtonous whom they were in incessant trade-induced battles with.

In fact, to burst your bubble, 1603 was a year when the present dynasty of Eko had not even yet began, let alone pay tribute to any Benin kindom. Lol.

The only tribute that was paid was from the Benin resident trading community --- through their Olotu Ado or Olotu Ekiran or Balekale --- back home to their Oba of Benin, as is their practice every where they settled for trade far away from home.


The period described by Joshua Ulsheimer was a period characterized by series of incessant trade-induced violence between the Aworis on one hand and the alien resident traders (led primarily by the Binis) on the other hand. It was in one of these incessant conflicts that Asheru (the leader of the Benin army) was killed.


You could have simply humbly asked what the Lagos account says in details (before proceeding to attack what you don't understand), and I would have been very glad to provide you with the account from which you can contrast with your own Benin account and return with supporting or reconciling evidence.

davidnazee:


Shut up and read this article from one of your uncles...


An editorial by a renowned Yoruba professor and historian.

Vanguard (Lagos)
EDITORIAL
July 7, 2004
Posted to the web July 7, 2004

The origin of the Benin and Yoruba empires of old have come to the fore and they have been subject of intense debate.
No doubt the origins of the two empires are obscure being deeply buried in legend and mythology and it is not easy to say what amount of history or the amount of embellished history they contain. In truth these traditions which on the surface try to account for the origin of these empires are perhaps little more than ideological chatters legitimizing the political systems, traditions, cultures, etc. of the people. This general position not withstanding, it is worthy of note that the Benin through their well renowned Arts and Craft recorded their history and event in addition to the account of the guild of oral recorders. The most contentious of this debate for now, however, is the Benin-Ife historical connection.

Many historians and social anthropologists especially the Yoruba historians have been greatly impressed by the tradition that the Yoruba Kingdom fathered the second Benin empire. According to Prof. A.B.Aderibigbe, "obviously there is an attempt in this story to gloss over what in fact was an alien imposition." Along the same line, Prof Michael Growder said that this tradition could be "a convenient legend to disguise what in fact was a conquest by the Oduduwa party".

Here however, the following points are worthy of note: First the Ife-Benin connection has been vigorously questioned by Prof. A.F.C. Ryder. He had pointed out that this tradition which seeks to connect Benin with Ife is suspect. He argues that throughout four centuries of contact between Benin and various European nations, in particular Portugal, there was no hint or reference to this relationship between the two empires. The tradition was not mentioned or recorded by any writer until after the British occupation of Benin in 1897. He also pointed out that the city of Ife is believed to be younger than Benin and therefore could not have fathered the second Benin Empire.

Second, according to Prof Ryder, by 1485 Benin was an impressive and large city. Judging by the evidence of European visitors, it was perhaps the largest and most impressive city which the Portuguese saw along the west coast of Africa. Recent archaeological evidence would seem to indicate that Ife was built probably not before the first decade of the 16th century while the capital of old Oyo, Yatenga, was built much later. This would seem to show that the complex political system of the Yoruba which the Benin Kingdom is believed to have descended must have originated much later than the Benin Kingdom.

Third, much of the evidence which is believed to corroborate the claims made in the traditions comes from enthnohistory, that is, historical speculations based on assumed logical sequence of development in the political system. This is most unreliable.

By the 15th Century, the Benin Kingdom had achieved the height of its greatness. It remained the most powerful and the largest Kingdom in the forest region of West Africa until about the end of the first half of the 17 century. During these two centuries of its ascendancy Benin empire stretched as far west as Lagos, Badagry and Whyidah (Dahomey). On the north-west it stretched as far as Ekiti, Akure and Owo. Towards the north, it stretched to Ishan Country and the southern position of Idah. Finally on the east it incorporated at various times various portions of Ika-Ibo and as far as the River Niger.

Prof. Biobaku has suggested that the eastern fringe of what is now Yorubaland was in pre-Yoruba days thinly inhabited by the ancestors of the modern Benin people, a people which he called the Efa. And if recent archaeological evidence would seem to indicate that Ife was built not before the first decade of the 16th century thereby making it to be younger than Benin, then the Oranmiyan tradition has been miscon-strued and the Benin version (The Oba of Benin's version,), not Egharervba's version, becomes more tenable.

I didn't even realised that there is support for Oba Erediawa's version of Benin/Ife relationship from Yoruba professor and the suggestion that Ife may even be younger than Benin.

TAO11:

First of all, again, stop pretending to be cool and civil. You're not in any way because I know you too. We've had many exchange on this same platform where you rolled over in the mud n@ked. I can literally pull out many instances. Even your comment here still shows traces of your insanity, as I have boldened some of it, despite your pretense of saneness

If you want to put all that behind you and turn over a new leaf going forward, then that's a different question. But to want to comtinue to be the nice guy or victim only after you got served while the game was on is absolutely unacceptable.

Having said that, I knew you will be triggered to hear that that there is a certain account (known in academia as the Lagos account) which debunks the claims of the Benin account that Aṣípa was a son or grandson of the then Oba of Benin.

Again, the Lagos (or Awori) account states clearly and unmistakenly that Aṣípa (the actual paternal progenitor of the Eko monarchy) was an Awori-Yoruba of Ife royal descent.

In the course of your response you committed two disgraceful logical fallacies, namely:

(1) The Red Herring Fallacy and (2) The Strawman Fallacy.

I will let you find out what those mean.


Moving on ... My key argument on the Lagos/Benin connection were two:

(1) That there were although clashes but having absolutely nothing to do with imperial conquest or domination of the authochtonous people. And that rather, the clashes were between the indigenous people (the Aworis on one hand) and the latter resident trading community of Benin et al. on the other hand over some trade disputes.

(2) That the Eko monarchy was of an indigenous origin via Aṣípa from Isheri who is Awori-Yoruba of Ife royal descent.

In light of this two contention which I have set out to defend (and which you pretend to be responding to), can you then point out which part of your comment addressed any of these two points let alone debunk them??

(A) Is it where you mentioned that an European visitor to "Lagos" in 1603 (presumably the German Andreas Joshua Ulsheimer) noted them a group of unnamed people sends some reports back to their Benin overlord --- a statement which clearly shows a non-sequitur fallacy and for which didn't even bother to provide reference??


(B) Is it where you called on SilverSniper for help??


(C) Is it the internet review of a certain unknown and hence inconsequential Michael Uchebuaku where he LIED of a strong fence surrounding his imaginary Lagos.

The most that Joshua said in his 1603 was that the "Lagos" he saw was full of diverse traders coming "by water and land", thus corroborating my allusion to the trade-induced conflict between the indigenous people the Aworis (which R. Smith also mentioned) on one hand vs. the alien resident trading communities on the other hand.

The most that Ulsh said whjch this your unknkwn "authority", Mich said quite well is that, the Island part of the "Lagos" he visited in 1603 was where the soldiers of the alien community --- led by Binis pitched their own tent, as opposed to the authochtonous whom they were in incessant battles with.

In fact, to burst your bubble, 1603 was a year when the present dynasty of Eko had not even yet began let alone pay tribute to any Benin kindom. Lol.

It was a year characterized by series of incessant trade-induced violence between the Aworis on one hand and the alien resident traders lled lrimarily by the Binis) on the other hand. It was in one of these incessant conflicts that Asheru (the leader of the Benin army) was killed.

You are too emotional, where did I say or did the report I presented say that Lagos current dynasty was in place by 1603.

Where did I say anything about tributes being paid.

Infact your submission seems to support the European eye witness account of 1603.

His report said, the place was inhabited by no one else but soldiers.

Every day, four commanders come together to form a court.

Their reports were sent to their rulers in Benin..

This suggests to me that the current ruling dynasty was not yet in place for four commanders to be forming a court.

The report did not say anything about a king or ruler being in place.

Haven't said that, the history of the Lagos monarchy by the Oba of Lagos and his chiefs align with Benin and not your Awori story.

Note, I don't present my submission to convince you or any other Yoruba that would have made up their minds already irrespective of the evidence, my submissions are for the benefits of none bias independent bystanders from other tribes.

samuk:


You are too emotional, where did I say or did the report I presented say that Lagos current dynasty was in place by 1603.

Infact your submission seems to support the European eye witness account of 1603.

His report said, the place was inhabited by no one else but soldiers.

Every day, four commanders come together to form a court.

Their reports are sent to their rulers in Benin..

This suggests to me that the current ruling dynasty was not yet in place for four commanders to be forming a court.

The report did not say anything about a king or ruler being in place.

Stop lying. You know I hate all these baseless Benin lies with a passion.

You seem to be replying just for the hope of being seen by others to be writing something. There is nothing in your reply here which is not a repetition already debunked in the same comment you're replying to.




No where did I or any such report say "THE PLACE" was inhabited by "NO ONE ELSE" but soldiers.

It simply talks about the Island part of Lagos (in 1603 that is during a period characterized by conflict between the autochthonous people and the aliens ) as the base for the aliens' armies -- led by the Binis.

The aliens group comprising largely of the Binis, but also comprising of the Ijebus, the Ilaje, the Ikale, the Owo, the Egba, the Egbado, the Aja, and the Ijaw.


Were you blind to where the same account of Ulsheimer I alluded to talks about Lagos (the whole -- not just the Island part now) being resort of traders "coming by water and land"??

--- "Josua Ulsheimer" cited in R. Smith, Kingdoms of the Yoruba (1969), p.74.

And yes, the Benis not only send back report to their Oba but also remitted tax back home from their trade gains abroad. This is their practice wherever they settled. The four generals were general over the Benin and other minority alien fighters).

Asheru a Bini general of the aliens' army fell in one of the conflicts with the Aworis. A lot of politics then got involved. Ask and you shall know. Stop pretending to know who you're in fact empty.


Well, except that there was the old Olofin dynasty in place which was the precursor to the present dynasty. You seem to know nothing about what's going on here. You fell.


You can't learn by exchanging on the pretense of knowing in the hope that snippets of information will be reveled to you by your interlocutor.

No, it doesn't go that way. You either ground yourself before coming for a debate; or you directly ask unashamedly about what the Lagos account says in details, and I will be happy to provide such information.

samuk:


I didn't even realised that there is support for Oba Erediawa's version of Benin/Ife relationship from Yoruba professor and the suggestion that Ife may even be younger than Benin.

Try this method going forward. It works like fire.

Whenever anybody (a Benin liar or non-Benin) gives you an information which appears to you to be bogus or novel, just say the following:

Can you direct me to an evidence for this?


Try it! You will come back to thank me as you will notice some things.

TAO11:


Sop lying. You know I hate all these baseless Benin lies with a passion.

You seem to be replying just for the hope of being seen by others to be writing something. There is nothing in your reply here which is not a repetition already debunked in the same comment you're replying to.




No where did I or any such report say "THE PLACE" was inhabited by "NO ONE ELSE" but soldiers.

It simply talks about the Island part of Lagos (in 1603 that is during a period characterized by conflict between the autochthonous people and the aliens ) as the base for the aliens' armies -- led by the Binis.

The aliens group comprising largely of the Binis, but also comprising of the Ijebus, the Ilaje, the Ikale, the Owo, the Egba, the Egbado, the Aja, and the Ijaw.


Were you blind to where the same account of Ulsheimer I alluded to talks about Lagos (the whole -- not just the Island part now) being resort of traders "coming by water and land"??

--- "Josua Ulsheimer" cited in R. Smith, Kingdoms of the Yoruba (1969), p.74.

And yes, the Benis not only send back report to their Oba but also remitted tax back home from their trade gains abroad. This is their practice wherever they settled. The four generals were general over the Benin and other minority alien fighters).


Well, except that there was the old Olofin dynasty in place which was the precursor to the present dynasty. You seem to know nothing about what's going on here. You fell.


You can't learn by exchanging on the pretense of knowing in the hope that snippets of information will be reveled to you by your interlocutor.

No, it doesn't go that way. You either ground yourself before coming for a debate; or you directly ask unashamedly about what the Lagos account says in details, and I will be happy to provide such information.

Like I already said my submissions are for wider consumption.

You are free to present your counter narratives without calling anyone lying and allow the general public to make up their minds.

samuk:


Like I already said my submissions are for wider consumption.

You are free to present you counter narratives without calling anyone lying.

You are talking about an account, by Josua Ulsheimer, that doesn't say what you claimed it says. And you expect not to be called out for it??

TAO11:


You are talking about an account, by Josua Ulsheimer, that doesn't say what you claimed it says. And you expect not to be called out for it??

If you have the report of Andreas Joshua Ulsheimer 1603 visit to Lagos, present it and point out where I misrepresented what he said for all to see.

That is the best form of defence rather than name calling.

TAO11:


Stop lying. You know I hate all these baseless Benin lies with a passion.

You seem to be replying just for the hope of being seen by others to be writing something. There is nothing in your reply here which is not a repetition already debunked in the same comment you're replying to.




No where did I or any such report say "THE PLACE" was inhabited by "NO ONE ELSE" but soldiers.

It simply talks about the Island part of Lagos (in 1603 that is during a period characterized by conflict between the autochthonous people and the aliens ) as the base for the aliens' armies -- led by the Binis.

The aliens group comprising largely of the Binis, but also comprising of the Ijebus, the Ilaje, the Ikale, the Owo, the Egba, the Egbado, the Aja, and the Ijaw.


Were you blind to where the same account of Ulsheimer I alluded to talks about Lagos (the whole -- not just the Island part now) being resort of traders "coming by water and land"??

--- "Josua Ulsheimer" cited in R. Smith, Kingdoms of the Yoruba (1969), p.74.

And yes, the Benis not only send back report to their Oba but also remitted tax back home from their trade gains abroad. This is their practice wherever they settled. The four generals were general over the Benin and other minority alien fighters).

Asheru a Bini general of the aliens' army fell in one of the conflicts with the Aworis. A lot of politics then got involved. Ask and you shall know. Stop pretending to know who you're in fact empty.


Well, except that there was the old Olofin dynasty in place which was the precursor to the present dynasty. You seem to know nothing about what's going on here. You fell.


You can't learn by exchanging on the pretense of knowing in the hope that snippets of information will be reveled to you by your interlocutor.

No, it doesn't go that way. You either ground yourself before coming for a debate; or you directly ask unashamedly about what the Lagos account says in details, and I will be happy to provide such information.

You are badly misinformed or just twisting true accounts which is a common thing for the Yorubas..

In earlier times the area know as Lagos was only restricted to the island of lagos and Iddo island. The main land part of lagos was unpopulated and wasn't part of Lagos till recent times.
The Aworis who were mainly hunters and fishermen occupied the Iddo Island.. What is fairly certain is that the Awori settlement in Lagos was earlier than that of the Benin which eventually subjugated the emergent settlement. Lagos Island was an unoccupied territory at that time and did not belong to the Aworis, neither was main land Lagos Awori territory (you cannot claim an unoccupied area because you are close it).. The Yorubas were never part of Lagos. They migrated to the area when Lagos began to develop in a formidable settlement.

The Edo warriors were the first settlers on Lagos Island which served as a military camp and from there they carried out their expeditions in to west africa.. Over the years the warriors paved way for their families and also Edo traders to settle in Lagos Island and the camp began to take shape from just a military camp into a city.

Yoruba elements started migrating to and settled on the lagos mainland in later years after the Island of Lagos has become a booming city and trading center. As wars began plaguing the Yoruba lands more Yorubas started migrating to Lagos mainland till the danger of an attack by he warring tribes plaguing Yorubaland drove them to seek the security of the nearest island, Iddo and Benin soldiers in the island and from where they spread to Eko. These Yoruba traders and war refugees were the first wave of Yorubas in Lagos.
The second wave of Yorubas into Lagos were the returnee slaves. By 1851 after the abolition of the slave trade, there was a great attracton to Lagos by the repatriates. Mainly freed Yoruba captives and their descendants who have been set ashore in Sierra leone, responded to the pull of their homeland and returned in successive waves to Lagos. They were granted land to settle in areas of the island.

The areas of Badagry, Ikorodu and Epe Local Governments were never part of Lagos. These areas were only merged as part of Lagos by the British at the end of the 19th century.

Any history of Lagos always accounts the Aworis and the Edos as the first settlers of Lagos. The Aworis never identified as Yoruba hundreds of years ago, but were assimilated into the yoruba culture in later years. Yorubas are migrants to Lagos.. Yoruba lands closeness to Lagos accounts for its large numbers in Lagos..

TA011,
thank God you are not even disguising your bigotry towards Benin. Yoruba people used their early educational advantage to write all sorts of nonsense History.

This was the aim of the British. To diminish Benin influence to the point people would question if such ever existed.

She quotes Yoruba writers educated on Yoruba propaganda as authority on Benin history. Lol.
Then add one European/Western writer who relied on Yoruba version to write his.

In 25 years, Yoruba will claim that Benin never set foot on Yoruba land. They will not even admit Olowo Princes had to be tutored at Oba's palace in Benin.

The likes of future Meleszenawi will swallow every Yoruba lie hook, line and sinker.

History written in 1933, they will claim it was fabricated in 1970s. What Meleszenawi does not realise is that Yoruba prism of history is not Benin prism.

I had to read books on Napoleon by British, French, German, Swiss and American writers to get a balanced view. In the native languages of the writers to avoid possible errors during translation.

The American version by a former navy officer was the best. It reconciled the contradictions, ommisions, lies, embellishments and outright bigotry or hero worship in most other books. The Swiss writer was better balanced too.

The American analysed Napoleon's decisions (political, economic, military, etc) from pure military tactical perspectives.

People like me who span the tribal divide DO NOT see it as a supremacy battle. Nothing to gain any way.

But simply stating facts of history and to further shed more light. We know the side that wins politically in modern times tries to rewrite History.

People come here, cut and paste and post any references they like, but none put their money where their mouth is.

I have volunteered for years now to fund genetic tests for 10 members of Benin and Ife Royal families. Let others come up with ideas and funds to put the argument to rest scientifically. Targeted research, not cut and paste evidence. Since we all want the truth scientifically nobody should dodge this.

But people come here, make claims about Ashipa, condescend, throws agbero/agbaya insults and disappear. Claiming to know Ashipa story better than late Oba Oyekan and reigning Oba Akiolu put together.

You guys need to do better. Talk is way too cheap. Throw your challenge on the floor. With needed funding too.

samuk:


If you have the report of Andreas Joshua Ulsheimer 1603 visit to Lagos, present it and point out where I misrepresented what he said for all to see.

That is the best form of defence rather than name calling.

Lol. I have told you to stop pretending to have some knowledge in the hope that snippets of information will be revealed to you during the exchange. Admit what you don't know and ask unashamedly.



Having said that: You have made reference to a certain unknown Micheal Uchebuaku who cited Josua Ulsheimer, and I have debunked where he lied and noted where he was quite correct.

I noted (while referencing the historian R. Smith who cited Josua Ulsheimer) that the correct representation is that the Island part of Lagos was where the Bini armies stationed in contrast to what you had first presented that NONE BUT soldiers of Benin lived in LAGOS (as a whole).

You then returned saying I should disprove you by providing Ulseimer's report --- argument ad ignorantiam. Lol

What about you provide Ulseimer's report to support your own claim which you cited from your unknown inconsequential "authority" Michael Uchebuaku lol.

Did you realize that I actually made full reference (with page number) to an actual historian who cited Ulsheimer himself ??



It's only on Nairaland that a commenter insist to be right unless being proven wrong. No, you have to prove your self right --- the onus is on you. you are not right because you're ignored.

Moreover, I did prove you wrong by referencing R. Smith who cited Ulsheimer as follows:

(a) That the ISLAND part of "LAGOS" was where the Benin men camped.

(b) That LAGOS (whole) was a trade resort for traders coming by land and water.

Smith also mentioned the Lagos account which states clearly that:

(c) Asipa --- an Aworis-Yoruba man of Ife descent --- was the progenitor of the present dynasty.

AreaFada2:
TA011,
thank God you are not even disguising your bigotry towards Benin. Yoruba people used their early educational advantage to write all sorts of nonsense History.

This was the aim of the British. To diminish Benin influence to the point people would question if such ever existed.

She quotes Yoruba writers educated on Yoruba propaganda as authority on Benin history. Lol.
The add one European writer who relied on Yoruba version to write it.

In 25 years, Yoruba will claim that Benin never set foot on Yoruba land. They will not even admit Olowo Princes had to be tutored at Oba's palace in Benin.

The likes of future Meleszenawi Will swallow every Yoruba lie hook, line and sinker.
History written in 1933, they will claim it was fabricated in 1970s. What Meleszenawi does not realise is that Yoruba prism of history is not Benin prism.

I had to book on Napoleon by British, French, German, Swiss and American writers to get a balanced view. The American version by a former navy officer was the best. It reconciled the contradictions, ommisions, lies, embellishments and outright bigotry or hero worship in other books.
He analysed Napoleon's decisions (political, economic, military, etc) from pure military tactical perspectives.

People like me who span the tribal divide DO NOT see it as a supremacy battle. Nothing to gain any way.

But simply stating facts of history and to further shed more light. We know the side that wins politically in modern times tries to rewrite History.

People come here, cut and paste and post any references they like, but none put their money where their mouth is.

I have volunteered for years now to fund genetic tests for 10 members of Benin and Ife Royal families. Let others come up with ideas and funds how to put the argument to rest scientifically. Targeted research, not cut and paste evidence. Since we all want the truth scientifically nobody should dodge this.

But people come here, make claims about Ashipa, condescend, throws agbero/agbaya insults and disappear. Claiming to know better than late Oba Oyekan and reigning Oba Akiolu put together.

You guys need to do better. Talk is way too cheap. Throw your challenge on the floor. With needed funding too.

Hmmmmmmmm

(1) Haven't said that, the history of the Lagos monarchy by the Oba of Lagos and his chiefs align with Benin and not your Awori story.

(2) Note, I don't present my submission to convince you or any other Yoruba that would have made up their minds already irrespective of the evidence, my submissions are for the benefits of none bias independent bystanders from other tribes.

You hid the above modified part of your comment without indicating that it was modified.

(1) Regarding your claim of Lagos monarchy aligning with the Benin:

If what you meant here is that the progenitor of the current Eko monarchy was a Bini man through some (imaginary) conquest. Then you deceived yourself as that is FALSE and contradicted both by the Lagos account as well as observational evidence till date.

Again the Lagos account states clearly that the progenitor of the current Eko dynasty is Ashipa an Awori-Yoruba man.


But if what you meant is that the current Eko dynasty has a lot of cultural borrowing of Bini origin because of latter heavy Benin presence and some incidental politics which I am happy to discuss if you're humble enough to learn, then Yes.


(2) Except that you haven't provided any evidence. The most attempt you made at providing device was to quote a nobody whom no one knows --- where such nobody pretends to be citing Ulsheimer.

In contrast, I have referenced an historian R. Smith (1969) who mentioned the Aeori account of Ashipa being an Awori-Yoruba and where this historian debunked your unknown authority's misrepresentation of Ulsheimer.

And the so-called bystanders (whom you're trying desperately hard to woo emotionally instead of intellectually) are actually witness to the proceeding as I have noted here. lol

Cheers!

TAO11:


Lol. I have told you to stop pretending to have some knowledge in the hope that snippets of information will be revealed to you during the exchange. Admit what you don't know and ask unashamedly.



Having said that: You have made reference to a certain unknown Micheal Uchebuaku who cited Josua Ulsheimer, and I have debunked where he lied and noted where he was quite correct.

I noted (while referencing the historian R. Smith who cited Josua Ulsheimer) that the correct representation is that the Island part of Lagos was where the Bini armies stationed in contrast to what you had first presented that NONE BUT soldiers of Benin lived in LAGOS (as a whole).

You then returned saying I should disprove you by providing Ulseimer's report --- argument ad ignorantiam. Lol

What about you provide Ulseimer's report to support your own claim which you cited from your unknown inconsequential "authority" Michael Uchebuaku lol.

Did you realize that I actually made full reference (with page number) to an actual historian who cited Ulsheimer himself ??



It's only on Nairaland that a commenter insist to be right unless being proven wrong. No, you have to prove your self right --- the onus is on you. you are not right because you're ignored.

Moreover, I did prove you wrong by referencing R. Smith who cited Ulsheimer as follows:

(a) That the ISLAND part of "LAGOS" was where the Benin men camped.

(b) That LAGOS (whole) was a trade resort for traders coming by land and water.

Smith also mentioned the Lagos account which states clearly that:

(c) Asipa --- an Aworis-Yoruba man of Ife descent --- was the progenitor of the present dynasty.

You are the one that call the report lie, how would you know that the report is lie without seeing it.

If you have seen it, then present it and point out where it was misrepresented to shame your opponent.

MelesZenawi:




Hmmmmmmmm

This debate and arguments would have been worthless without people like you.

We are not here to convince the Yorubas who may have already made up their minds but those of you from other tribes who may be misinformed.

davidnazee:



[s]You are badly misinformed or just twisting true accounts which is a common thing for the Yorubas..

In earlier times the area know as Lagos was only restricted to the island of lagos and Iddo island. The main land part of lagos was unpopulated and wasn't part of Lagos till recent times.
The Aworis who were mainly hunters and fishermen occupied the Iddo Island.. What is fairly certain is that the Awori settlement in Lagos was earlier than that of the Benin which eventually subjugated the emergent settlement. Lagos Island was an unoccupied territory at that time and did not belong to the Aworis, neither was main land Lagos Awori territory (you cannot claim an unoccupied area because you are close it).. The Yorubas were never part of Lagos. They migrated to the area when Lagos began to develop in a formidable settlement.

The Edo warriors were the first settlers on Lagos Island which served as a military camp and from there they carried out their expeditions in to west africa.. Over the years the warriors paved way for their families and also Edo traders to settle in Lagos Island and the camp began to take shape from just a military camp into a city.

Yoruba elements started migrating to and settled on the lagos mainland in later years after the Island of Lagos has become a booming city and trading center. As wars began plaguing the Yoruba lands more Yorubas started migrating to Lagos mainland till the danger of an attack by he warring tribes plaguing Yorubaland drove them to seek the security of the nearest island, Iddo and Benin soldiers in the island and from where they spread to Eko. These Yoruba traders and war refugees were the first wave of Yorubas in Lagos.
The second wave of Yorubas into Lagos were the returnee slaves. By 1851 after the abolition of the slave trade, there was a great attracton to Lagos by the repatriates. Mainly freed Yoruba captives and their descendants who have been set ashore in Sierra leone, responded to the pull of their homeland and returned in successive waves to Lagos. They were granted land to settle in areas of the island.

The areas of Badagry, Ikorodu and Epe Local Governments were never part of Lagos. These areas were only merged as part of Lagos by the British at the end of the 19th century.

Any history of Lagos always accounts the Aworis and the Edos as the first settlers of Lagos. The Aworis never identified as Yoruba hundreds of years ago, but were assimilated into the yoruba culture in later years. Yorubas are migrants to Lagos.. Yoruba lands closeness to Lagos accounts for its large numbers in Lagos..[/s]

Your own case in O-Y-O. You already admitted to me point blank that you have nothing to offer.

The most you can do is two things:

(1) Drag your computer close and start your imagination of Benin's "conquest" while typing into Nairaland as you go.

Or (2) Copy and paste baseless skewed writeups from "edo-net" and "ado-world" websites. When did you ever see me reference or paste Yoruba-centric write-ups from Yoruba youth congress, etc. websites?? Lol


Cite historians you won't.

Your brother even tried and cite one brother Michael Uchebuaku whom no one knows as anything, although turning out to be a spurious citation. At least he cited something.

samuk:


This debate and arguments would have been worthless without people like you.

We are not here to convince the Yorubas who may have already made up their minds but those of you from other tribes who may be misinformed.

Stop drawing emotional support and alliance.

Let people think by themselves and decide based on the evidences.

TAO11:


You hid the above modified part of your comment without indicating that it was modified.

(1) Regarding your claim of Lagos monarchy aligning with the Benin:

If what you meant here is that the progenitor of the current Eko monarchy was a Bini man through some (imaginary) conquest. Then you deceived yourself as that is FALSE and contradicted both by the Lagos account as well as observational evidence till date.

Again the Lagos account states clearly that the progenitor of the current Eko dynasty is Ashipa an Awori-Yoruba man.


But if what you meant is that the current Eko dynasty has a lot of cultural borrowing of Bini origin because of latter heavy Benin presence and some incidental politics which I am happy to discuss if you're humble enough to learn, then Yes.


(2) Except that you haven't provided any evidence. The most attempt you made at providing device was to quote a nobody whom no one knows --- where such nobody pretends to be citing Ulsheimer.

In contrast, I have referenced an historian R. Smith (1969) who mentioned the Aeori account of Ashipa being an Awori-Yoruba and where this historian debunked your unknown authority's misrepresentation of Ulsheimer.

And the so-called bystanders (whom you're trying desperately hard to woo emotionally instead of intellectually) are actually witness to the proceeding as I have noted here. lol

Cheers!

The current Oba of Lagos have consistently made public statements calling the Oba of Benin his father not some Awori.

You can spin that anyhow you like.

samuk:


You are the one that call the report lie, how would you know that the report is lie without seeing it.

If you have seen it, then present it and point out where it was misrepresented to shame your opponent.

Again this is the kind of Benin lies and twisting that annoys me.

What I have observed is that, you are so confident that your Benin followers are gullible and dumb.


But I wont back off in exposing you as a fraud who is bent on "defending" himself or his kingdom with LIESSSSS!


No where did I ever call Ulsheimer's report a Lie. I challenge you to point out where I ever did.


Instead what I did was to cite an historian who referenced same report thus showing that what you claimed to have cited from the report is false.


You claimed that the report says that: LAGOS (as a whole) is inhabited in 1601 ONLY by some Benin soldiers



Whereas the same report as I have shown says that: LAGOS (as a whole) --- in the same 1601 --- was a resort for all kind of traders coming by water and land.

TAO11:


Stop drawing emotional support and alliance.

Let people think by themselves and decide based on the evidences.

Are you implying that these people can't make up their minds without being conjured to do so.

TAO11:


Again this is the kind of Benin lies and twisting that annoys me.

What I have observed is that, you are so confident that your Benin followers are gullible and dumb.


But I wont back off in exposing you as a fraud who is bent on "defending" himself or his kingdom with LIESSSSS!


No where did I ever call Ulsheimer's report a Lie. I challenge you to point out where I ever did.

So I take it that Andreas Joshua Ulsheimer report about what he saw in Lagos in 1603 is correct.

In 1603, Andreas Joshua Ulsheimer, a German surgeon, aboard a Dutch merchant ship, visited Lagos. According to his accounts, Lagos was a large frontier town surrounded by a strong fence and inhabited by "none but soldiers and four military commanders, who behave in a very stately manner."

The Lagos visited by Ulsheimer and his trading colleagues nearly four centuries ago was in many ways highly developed. Each day its four commanders came together as a court and each day two envoys were dispatched to take decisions back to their ruler in Benin. To do so, Ulsheimer wrote, was a common practice in all towns under the suzerainty of Benin…

samuk:


Are you implying that these people can't make up their minds without being conjured to do so.

That's exactly what you did by interfering in someone's independence seeking to draw alliance. And I called you out for it.

Provide evidence if you can, and leave others readers (who should be independent) out of it without quoting them.

samuk:


So I take it that Andreas Joshua Ulsheimer report about what he saw in Lagos in 1603 is correct.

In 1603, Andreas Joshua Ulsheimer, a German surgeon, aboard a Dutch merchant ship, visited Lagos. According to his accounts, Lagos was a large frontier town surrounded by a strong fence and inhabited by "none but soldiers and four military commanders, who behave in a very stately manner."

The Lagos visited by Ulsheimer and his trading colleagues nearly four centuries ago was in many ways highly developed. Each day its four commanders came together as a court and each day two envoys were dispatched to take decisions back to their ruler in Benin. To do so, Ulsheimer wrote, was a common practice in all towns under the suzerainty of Benin…

Are you deliberately pretending to be unable to read or what?

The account is correct but no where did it say the nonsense you attributed to it. And I have referenced R. Smith's Kingdom of the Yorubas who cited it.

You reference nothing but one unknown brother Micheal Uchebuaku who claimed to be citing the report for you.


You and brother Uchebuaku noted that the report says that: LAGOS (as a whole) is inhabited in 1601 ONLY by some Benin soldiers


Whereas the same report as I have shown (from a historian's work -- Robert Smith) says that: LAGOS (as a whole) --- in the same 1601 --- was a resort for all kind of traders coming by water and land.

So, which part of this is unclear to you??

Hoping to grab land with lies??



The same historian R. Smith continued to clarify citing the Lagos tradition that:

"The early traditions of Lagos ascribe the peopling of this sandy waste near the edge of the ocean to a small scale-migration of Awori Yoruba, who first settled under the leadership of a hunter named Ogunfunminire about twelve miles near the River Ogun at Isheri ... .Ogunfunminire is said to have been a member of the royal house of Ife..."

R. Smith Kingdoms of theYoruba (1969), p.73.