MuttleyLaff:
Eviana, Nigerians are an interesting and blessed lot in a good and positive way, lol. Trust me, I know because Naija is in my DNA, my blood, lol. I cant believe that Finallydead would tell you to "keep quiet" on doctrine that he presumes you didn't understand. Sounds like he is trying to embrace and employ that misunderstood Apostle Paul's verse about the alleged silence of women, lol smh. Now he is getting the hump and green-eyed over me mentioning your kind-heartedness and expressing appreciation of ....

I invited him to a private chatroom, but he's so scared of having his bubble burst, so he is hiding behind the, air it, in the market place for all to hear ploy. First it was, lets agree to disagree, but now when I declined that and gave him a chance to have a private chat, to do a mano o mano that's presented itself, it is then, this next one, hes pulled out from in his bag of running away tricks, lol, smh.

Wow. I'm sorry I've not been available to respond, Mutt. Been so occupied. But hey, you know I really can't be scared of having my bubble burst when I'm suggesting that I learn in front of everyone, Mutt.

Let me help you out with what you're not getting Mutt, take a look at an exposition I once did on the Nephilim. There's a lot more to it but I can't share everything with you.


EXPOSITON ON SINS OF the SONS OF GOD/NEPHILIM ORIGIN

BACKGROUND OF THE EVENT
In Gen5, we're given the ancestry of the main actor in the flood story, Noah, right from Adam. It is important to note in this account that God called Adam and all his race, male and female inclusive, upto Noah "MAN"(Gen5:1-2).
Linking up through the chapter to Gen6:1, we're told that when MEN began to become numerous(multiplying in 10,000s in literal Hebrew), certain sons of God saw the females born to the MAN race as beautiful.(v2)
1.) This makes it easy to understand that the men referred to in the following account of Gen6(remember there's no chapter and verse, chapter 5&6 are continuous) is the whole Adamic race not a specific line(of Cain). It would be absurd also, GIVEN THE CONTEXT, to think that the sons of God referred in Gen6:2 to an Adamic line(of Seth) seeing that the name referenced here was MAN(Adamic race according to Gen5) PLUS there was NEVER a reference previously(for Adam or Seth) both in chapter 5 and right back through chapter 1 of the title "son of God". Such thought would create a sharp, irregular inflexion in the progressive account.
2.) The sons of God engagement with women also occurred when MEN started becoming numerous i.e. after males had ALREADY been going in to females and proliferating the race of MAN. If the sons of God referred to a line of MEN, it should be no big deal worthy of mention that they suddenly began going into females since that had been the case already.
3.) To think that men were sons of God through Seth's "pure" bloodline and that their blood could pass down the genes of Divine sonship would also mean that all men on earth today are sons of God altogether since Noah was a pure descendant of Seth and is our common ancestor.
It is imperative then that we investigate the "sons of God" here with a different line of thought.

TIMESPAN OF THE EVENT
Going further into Gen6, v4 specifically, we're told that a certain breed called "NEPHILIM" showed up in those days and also afterwards.
Here is a point many have also misconstrued. Many take this to say that the nephilim were in the earth in the days of the flood and also after the flood. Yet, in the account, "those days" couldn't have referred to the flood because the flood event was yet to be mentioned up to this point and even further after this point.
What days then we're referred to. It is right there in the text "...when the sons of God went into the daughters of MEN"(Gen6:4) which by comparing with Gen6:1 was the days that "...MEN began to be numerous". So we see that it was in those days and also after the days when MEN began to become so many that the Nephilim showed up. There were no Nephilim AFTER the flood but only after MEN began to become many i.e. the timespan of the Nephilim was from the time men started multiplying and it continued on as a trend afterwards up until the flood.

MYTHS OF RESURGENCE
This immediately brings up another story which seems to counter this position in Num13:32. The only other time we see the use of the word "Nephilim" is in this account. This initially, seems to corroborate the fable that Nephilim existed after the flood. However, if we carefully follow the account, we see the fallacy. In Num13, the spies in their initial report of Canaan, Num13:26-29, gave a factual report of the land and never mentioned a hoot about Nephilim. However, only after Caleb suggested that they go and possess the land, v30, did the spies not only counter the idea for obvious fear, v31, but as clearly written, they also "...came up with a SLANDER...that the land swallows people...," v32,(take note slander is exactly what the literal Hebrew says) ...and also had sons of Anak who were not only giants, in a human to grasshopper ratio, but Nephilim indeed...v33.
In other words, these were all OUTRAGEOUS lies(slanders) concocted to put fear into the people so they would all want to cowardly remain in the wilderness and never entertain the idea of a confrontation with the Canaanites.
So if we can take their word concerning the sons of Anak being Nephilim, we might as well believe that the land swallowed it's inhabitants and that the sons of Anak(who btw were generally much taller, burly and more powerful than they) were giants in a human to grasshopper ratio. We of course cannot. Even when the report was mentioned again in Num14:36-37, it was again specifically called a SLANDER.
So there were no Nephilim after the flood because part of the purpose of the flood was to clear that bloodline by drowning them long enough to their death since they couldn't die in ordinary ways and also conduct their bodies to Antarctica(which only became through the flood and brought up the need for cold, Gen8:22, which never was before the flood) since they couldn't be decomposed like ordinary human bodies.

CHARACTERISTICS OF THE NEPHILIM.
Continuing with the account in Gen6, we can find certain clearly spelt out characteristics of the Nephilim.
First, let's begin by dispelling the idea that they were huge gigantic creatures. While it is not impossible that there were physically distinguishable traits in these Nephilim e.g. their physical size, we have no concrete reason to believe this as the word 'giants' was actually translated from the word Nephilim in the Hebrew, which just revolves around the meaning "fallen". It therefore shouldn't be understood to mean giants as we know today and so we should understand the text rather as
"...There were Nephilim/Fallen ones in the earth in those days..."(Gen6:4).
Now to their obvious characteristics.
1.) It is obvious that these beings were supernaturally powerful. When it says in Gen6:4 "mighty men of old", the literal Hebrew says "Gibbor(powerful) Olam(eternally)" i.e. eternally(hence supernaturally) powerful. What these eternal powers were, however, aren't specified. But though human in appearance, they possessed such powers, as the average superhero(they are in fact the inspiration of many hero cartoons, globally).
2.) By these supernatural powers, these beings stood out among mortals, the literal Hebrew calls them "mortals of name/character/reputation" or renown as in KJV. That is they were popular for their mighty feats.
3.) They had a special capacity to lead mankind into depravity/sin and violence and that, at an alarming rate to such a level as to provoke the wrath of God on the earth long before Adam's term expired. So, rather than the picture of super heroes portrayed of them today in traditional folktales and cartoons, scripture portrays these beings as villains instead.

Contd. below...

MuttleyLaff:
Eviana, Nigerians are an interesting and blessed lot in a good and positive way, lol. Trust me, I know because Naija is in my DNA, my blood, lol. I cant believe that Finallydead would tell you to "keep quiet" on doctrine that he presumes you didn't understand. Sounds like he is trying to embrace and employ that misunderstood Apostle Paul's verse about the alleged silence of women, lol smh. Now he is getting the hump and green-eyed over me mentioning your kind-heartedness and expressing appreciation of it. Whats the matter with people huh?

Well, as you've already seen yourself, in that heap Finallydead put up there, he's got in it, more holes than in a swiss cheese, its just plain smh unbelievable. What has begotten Son got to do with son(s) of God. Doesnt Finallydead know what begotten, in the original Greek text, means ni? Has Finallydead not heard or learned about monogenes ni? I invited Finallydead twice for a private chat, but he is dodging and avoiding them. Of course, Finallydead wants to continue living his delusion, lol.

90% of Finallydead's submission was him merely strawmanning me. Quite a lot what Finallydead typed were excruciatingly obscure, unclear and/or unintelligible to follow and plain just misleading. He even, is so blinded by fables, even the Greek mythology didn't raise a red flag up, as warning for Finallydead ....... scared of having his bubble burst, so he is hiding behind the, air it, in the market place for all to hear ploy. First it was, lets agree to disagree, but now when I declined that and gave him a chance to have a private chat, to do a mano o mano that's presented itself, it is then, this next one, hes pulled out from in his bag of running away tricks, lol, smh.

Contd. from above


THE FEASIBILITY OF THEIR EXISTENCE
One of the areas where people have a hard time with this account of the Nephilim is in the seeming impracticability of Spiritual beings and humans cross breeding. While it is indeed a wondrous feat to the imagination and obviously not all spiritual beings/angels are capable of this, bible students have no reason to see this as impossible or to think no spiritual beings can crossbreed with humans.
Considering that God, procreated His seed through Mary and that the Antichrist will replicate this and come in flesh and blood, like an ordinary human, also seeking to alter the human genes into his through the mark, then there are certainly spiritual beings capable of crossbreeding with mankind. We can see the Nephilim as the first instance of this crossbreeding.

CONFIRMATION OF THE NEPHILIM CROSSBREED
If at all, there were still any unclear grounds for belief in the crossbreed, which really is clear, we have a straw that breaks the camel's back from the NT letters. Make that two straws, actually.
Peter in his letter, 2Pet2, referring to offending teachers who "introduce sects of destruction and deny the Lord...."(v1) and ...especially abuse the flesh...(v10), reminds of God's habitual pattern of SIMULTANEOUS judgement of offenders and salvation of the innocent(v9), referencing two previous events.
First is the event of interest, The crossbreeding of angels and humans, which corrupted the flesh leading to the destruction of all flesh BUT salvation of Noah(v4-5).
Second is the destruction of S&G for the same corruption of flesh AND saving of Lot(v6-8 )

NB.: Take note Muttley, that attempting to say Peter cited the crossbreeding event as a fable will not only be an abuse on yours and everyone else's intelligence but will also mean that Peter called the Noah-flood story and S&G story fables as well.

You also seem to want to make much of the verb "Tartaroo" used by Peter in v4, which only literally means to put in the lowest abyss of Hades. It is only as mythical as Hades itself, then. This is what was done to these angels

To further confirm our Nephilim story, referring to certain defaulting brothers who defile the flesh(v8) amongst other things, Jude, warns of God's character of punishing His very own when they apostatise and break His covenant, citing three stories:
First, He destroyed His own people He had brought out of Egypt when they disbelieved.(v5)
Second, He sentenced His own angels when they left their dwelling to chains in the darkness of Hell.(v6)
Third, He destroyed S&G for the sin of defiling the flesh.(v7)

It is also worthy of note that the reputable early church fathers believed in the fall of angelic beings in the time of Noah and the birth of hybrids(Nephilim).

SONSHIP TITLE ON MEN
Of all the great men we know, we can hardly find one called a son of God anywhere in scripture like the Lord Jesus. Even Adam, preordained a son of God before the fall, only died a man because of sin(Ps82:6-7) and we do not have any scriptural grounds to confer the title on Seth or his lineage. And even if you would want to put Enoch in that class, it would be only after he took on angelic form. If a man would ever be called son of God, it would be only after this transmutation to angelic state, not before. And in that mutated state, if they ever procreate, it would still be a crossbreed, not a human.
So, no man, during the earthly life in which they procreated normally was called a son of God. This crossbreeding in Gen6, then, could not be between two ordinary lines of humans.
We see however, throughout OT usage of sons of God/morning stars for angels(Job1&2, 38:7, Is 14:12)

CORPORALITY OF ANGELS AND DEMONS
It seems the reason people mix up demons and fallen angels is because they don't understand the logic of spiritual corporality. Understand that the physical realm is only a derivative of the spiritual realm and is a parallel to it, corresponding in every detail to a spiritual reality(Heb11:3). Both are simply parallel universes or different dimensions. Like we would cross from earth to another planet in Star Wars, yet those beings are just as real and corporeal(in the movie) as humans. Therefore, just as there are physical bodies to each animal, so there are spiritual bodies to each spirit being(1Cor15:40,44, Eze28:13, Job41:1,2,7,14,15...24).
All angels, like animals and humans (only, of the spiritual realm), have their unique corporality and well designed bodies with wings(being all originally made for heaven), needing no supporting body/host for their existence. We must get rid of the wrong mindset that Spirit beings are all like transparent incorporeal ghosts needing a physical body. No, they are corporeal, but with bodies suited primarily to the spirit realm. Some are also able to transform their bodies and transmogrify(2Cor11:14), even into physical bodies to engage on earthly assignments but none can dwell inside the body of another being, physical or spiritual.
Demons, however, are like the parasites/vermin of the spiritual realm who cannot sustain their existence without a host(naked spirits, so to say).
It is a wearying torturous thirst to them to exist without a host, hence they are always seeking one(Lk11:24). Being the least of the spiritual realm, they are left to find their host in physical creatures, especially humans but can manage animals in dire conditions(Lk8:32).
As much as beasts are not parasites/microbes, so fallen angels are not demons.

Eviana:




I was so tickled by the above bolded.
This was so funny because Nigerians are so interesting.....which I already know.
Gotta love my other half of my DNA...no matter how frustrated I get sometimes.
I am so very tickled really.
On that other thread, you told me to "keep quiet" on doctrine that I didn't understand remember?.....
Soooo, I followed your instructions by "running away for good"...lol.

Me control MuttleyLaff enough to make him run away or back down from any religious discussion on this forum? I don't think I've ever seen him do that ever..
Again very hilarious....I am tickled again..lol.
Oh I'm sure your questions will be answered...

However, yes, I am gonna do a "repeat" of what I did on the other thread over here on this thread (although I probably could explain this one a little bit better) and exercise my feminine grace--which I thank God for--and do the following while running:

@ the bolded, I'm not so sure Mutt will answer those questions and there's a first time for everything, too.

About keeping silent, don't be deterred to freely ask questions on what you don't know and question what you can't accept when presented to you and also express your opinions in a subjective and researchful way rather than argumentatively or stating authoritatively what you can't prove so as not to mislead souls. I'm sure you already know that though.

God bless you.

Finallydead:
@ the bolded, I'm not so sure Mutt will answer those questions and there's a first time for everything, too.

About keeping silent, don't be deterred to freely ask questions on what you don't know and question what you can't accept when presented to you and also express your opinions in a subjective and researchful way rather than argumentatively or stating authoritatively what you can't prove. I'm sure you already know that though.

God bless you.

Sacrifice 30 minutes. Squeeze out 30mins from your busy schedule to be online for a chatroom session. Notice that I have dropped it down from up to one hour. Lets do it now sef, now that you are currently online and even reading as I am seeing you do below.
I've send you a chat room request, so check your email now, for the chatroom invite

MuttleyLaff:
Sacrifice 30 minutes. Squeeze out 30mins from your busy schedule to be online for a chatroom session. Notice that I have dropped it down from up to one hour. Lets do it now sef, now that you are currently online and even reading as I am seeing you do below.
I've send you a chat room request, so check your email now, for the chatroom invite

Ok but I wonder what we can achieve because I'll have to keep it 30 mins. CYM.

kkins25:
an interesting POV. are you saying demons are our instinctive animal behaviour?

Not quite. They are an expression of the destructive side of us whether programmed by us , others or society, or natural/instinctive.

LordReed:


How would they aggregate?

Things of a similar nature tend to come together.

If you do not like weed, you can live in an area and never be aware that it is sold there. When your weed smoking cousin come, it may not take him a month before he knows all the dealers.

Just like people talking the same language group themselves in tribes and nations, similar frequencies of thoughts (programmed or natural) group themselves as demons and angels and gods etc.

Finallydead:
Ok but I wonder what we can achieve because I'll have to keep it 30 mins. CYM.

I have waited doing CYM, but nothing in from you. I can wrap it up in 30 mins ...

MuttleyLaff:
I have waited doing CYM, but nothing in from you. I can wrap it up in 30 mins ...

Okey dokey

Finallydead:
Okey dokey

Txs. Meet you there, lol

Finallydead:

@ the bolded, I'm not so sure Mutt will answer those questions and there's a first time for everything, too.

About keeping silent, don't be deterred to freely ask questions on what you don't know and question what you can't accept when presented to you and also express your opinions in a subjective and researchful way rather than argumentatively or stating authoritatively what you can't prove. I'm sure you already know that though.

God bless you.

Ok and thank you...
God bless you too

MuttleyLaff:
Txs. Meet you there, lol

Hey mutt, good day. Let me know when you're good.

Finallydead:

Hey mutt, good day. Let me know when you're good.

How long are you online until today. I have just gotten up, haven't yet freshened up, haven't taken my turmeric and cumin hot drink first thing on empty stomach and certainly haven't had my breakfast yet too.

I am also about killing two demons, plaguing one of our brothers who is impersonating an Israelite and so I am needing to call the devil a liar, on two other fronts there too, lol.

So yeah, please advise how long you are online for. Had a call from my service provider out of the blues yesterday, asking me about the unsolicited fibre optic router they sent me and checking if I have yet started using it. I affirmatively responded, of course yes, that I set it up and have been using since after.

Anyway long story short, it seems my connection has improved, because after the call I've noticed I havent experienced dropped wifi connectivity or time lags, as like I previously had been. I think they flipped on a switch at their end for me, lol.

How long are you online for?

MuttleyLaff:
How long are you online until today. I have just gotten up, haven't yet freshened up, haven't taken my turmeric and cumin hot drink first thing on empty stomach and certainly haven't had my breakfast yet too.

I am also about killing two demons, plaguing one of our brothers who is impersonating an Israelite and so I am needing to call the devil a liar, on two other fronts there too, lol.

So yeah, please advise how long you are online for. Had a call from my service provider out of the blues yesterday, asking me about the unsolicited fibre optic router they sent me and checking if I have yet started using it. I affirmatively responded, of course yes, that I set it up and have been using since after.

Anyway long story short, it seems my connection has improved, because after the call I've noticed I havent experienced dropped wifi connectivity or time lags, as like I previously had been. I think they flipped on a switch at their end for me, lol.

How long are you online for?

Hey Mutt, I'm available now and within the next few hours. Also feel free to holla whenever's convenient for you and I'll just check if it is for me.

Finallydead:

Contd. from above


THE FEASIBILITY OF THEIR EXISTENCE
One of the areas where people have a hard time with this account of the Nephilim is in the seeming impracticability of Spiritual beings and humans cross breeding. While it is indeed a wondrous feat to the imagination and obviously not all spiritual beings/angels are capable of this, bible students have no reason to see this as impossible or to think no spiritual beings can crossbreed with humans.
Considering that God, procreated His seed through Mary and that the Antichrist will replicate this and come in flesh and blood, like an ordinary human, also seeking to alter the human genes into his through the mark, then there are certainly spiritual beings capable of crossbreeding with mankind. We can see the Nephilim as the first instance of this crossbreeding.

CONFIRMATION OF THE NEPHILIM CROSSBREED
If at all, there were still any unclear grounds for belief in the crossbreed, which really is clear, we have a straw that breaks the camel's back from the NT letters. Make that two straws, actually.
Peter in his letter, 2Pet2, referring to offending teachers who "introduce sects of destruction and deny the Lord...."(v1) and ...especially abuse the flesh...(v10), reminds of God's habitual pattern of SIMULTANEOUS judgement of offenders and salvation of the innocent(v9), referencing two previous events.
First is the event of interest, The crossbreeding of angels and humans, which corrupted the flesh leading to the destruction of all flesh BUT salvation of Noah(v4-5).
Second is the destruction of S&G for the same corruption of flesh AND saving of Lot(v6-8 )

NB.: Take note Muttley, that attempting to say Peter cited the crossbreeding event as a fable will not only be an abuse on yours and everyone else's intelligence but will also mean that Peter called the Noah-flood story and S&G story fables as well.

You also seem to want to make much of the verb "Tartaroo" used by Peter in v4, which only literally means to put in the lowest abyss of Hades. It is only as mythical as Hades itself, then. This is what was done to these angels

To further confirm our Nephilim story, referring to certain defaulting brothers who defile the flesh(v8) amongst other things, Jude, warns of God's character of punishing His very own when they apostatise and break His covenant, citing three stories:
First, He destroyed His own people He had brought out of Egypt when they disbelieved.(v5)
Second, He sentenced His own angels when they left their dwelling to chains in the darkness of Hell.(v6)
Third, He destroyed S&G for the sin of defiling the flesh.(v7)

It is also worthy of note that the reputable early church fathers believed in the fall of angelic beings in the time of Noah and the birth of hybrids(Nephilim).

SONSHIP TITLE ON MEN
Of all the great men we know, we can hardly find one called a son of God anywhere in scripture like the Lord Jesus. Even Adam, preordained a son of God before the fall, only died a man because of sin(Ps82:6-7) and we do not have any scriptural grounds to confer the title on Seth or his lineage. And even if you would want to put Enoch in that class, it would be only after he took on angelic form. If a man would ever be called son of God, it would be only after this transmutation to angelic state, not before. And in that mutated state, if they ever procreate, it would still be a crossbreed, not a human.
So, no man, during the earthly life in which they procreated normally was called a son of God. This crossbreeding in Gen6, then, could not be between two ordinary lines of humans.
We see however, throughout OT usage of sons of God/morning stars for angels(Job1&2, 38:7, Is 14:12)

CORPORALITY OF ANGELS AND DEMONS
It seems the reason people mix up demons and fallen angels is because they don't understand the logic of spiritual corporality. Understand that the physical realm is only a derivative of the spiritual realm and is a parallel to it, corresponding in every detail to a spiritual reality(Heb11:3). Both are simply parallel universes or different dimensions. Like we would cross from earth to another planet in Star Wars, yet those beings are just as real and corporeal(in the movie) as humans. Therefore, just as there are physical bodies to each animal, so there are spiritual bodies to each spirit being(1Cor15:40,44, Eze28:13, Job41:1,2,7,14,15...24).
All angels, like animals and humans (only, of the spiritual realm), have their unique corporality and well designed bodies with wings(being all originally made for heaven), needing no supporting body/host for their existence. We must get rid of the wrong mindset that Spirit beings are all like transparent incorporeal ghosts needing a physical body. No, they are corporeal, but with bodies suited primarily to the spirit realm. Some are also able to transform their bodies and transmogrify(2Cor11:14), even into physical bodies to engage on earthly assignments but none can dwell inside the body of another being, physical or spiritual.
Demons, however, are like the parasites/vermin of the spiritual realm who cannot sustain their existence without a host(naked spirits, so to say).
It is a wearying torturous thirst to them to exist without a host, hence they are always seeking one(Lk11:24). Being the least of the spiritual realm, they are left to find their host in physical creatures, especially humans but can manage animals in dire conditions(Lk8:32).
As much as beasts are not parasites/microbes, so fallen angels are not demons.

Wow!!!! Beautiful.
Now, watch out, the last time i said something of this nature my paddy MuttleyLaff called me igbo smoker.. Your epistle is way more detailed than mine although i was coming from a science POV. I wonder what rebuttal MuttleyLaff would have after he finish drinking his igbo tea.. Haha

kkins25:
Wow!!!! Beautiful.
Now, watch out, the last time i said something of this nature my paddy MuttleyLaff called me igbo smoker.
Your epistle is way more detailed than mine although I was coming from a science POV.
I wonder what rebuttal MuttleyLaff would have after he finish drinking his igbo tea.. Haha

[img]https://s0/images/MuttleyLaffsipsTea.gif[/img]
Try simple biblical POV

MuttleyLaff:
[img]https://s0/images/MuttleyLaffsipsTea.gif[/img]
Try simple biblical POV

where is our rebuttal?

kkins25:
where is our rebuttal?

Not for market display, lmao

Give her points for creativity na.

CAPSLOCKED:


LOL, YOU HOPE WHAT IS CLEAR?

YOU PEOPLE ARE AMAZING.