TheSourcerer:
you are not alone man , let's keep going on ,it always gets better tbh �, it could have been worse you could be religious under this weather , fasting and shii

solite3:
making heaven is just by faith in Jesus. Why do you think paul said he doesnt want to be found with his righteousness?
Many of you that want your own righteousness instead of the righteousness of Christ which is by faith would be shocked on how wrong you were.
Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


Before you can live in holiness you must be made holy first.

You dont become holy by trying to live holy, same way you dont become righteous by trying to do righteousness.

Righteousness is not earned, it is a free gift. Holiness is as a result of having Christ nature.

solite3:
what do you mean by a sinful believer? John already said that no one born of God continue to live in sin.
A believer in Jesus cannot end up in hell because he already has eternal life.
A believer who sins would get punished for his sin on earth but his Spirit would be saved.

solite3:
making heaven is just by faith in Jesus. Why do you think paul said he doesnt want to be found with his righteousness?
Many of you that want your own righteousness instead of the righteousness of Christ which is by faith would be shocked on how wrong you were.
Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


Before you can live in holiness you must be made holy first.

You dont become holy by trying to live holy, same way you dont become righteous by trying to do righteousness.

Righteousness is not earned, it is a free gift. Holiness is as a result of having Christ nature.

unstoppable51:


The believer in Jesus and the unbeliever can NEVER be punished alike. Nowhere in the scriptures does the Bible teach that.

I understand your fight against the so called believers living like the unbelievers. We're all on the same page on that. That's why we're calling all believers everywhere to "awake to righteousness and sin not"

But don't get unnecessarily emotional and start using falsehood and threats to spur them to act righteously.

The sinning believers will be punished quite OK. But do not equate them with unbelievers. They are never on the same level in the sight of God and will never receive the same type of punishment.

The scriptures teach that the believer who didn't live uprightly shall suffer loss of his rewards but his soul is still saved.

1Co 3:13-15 KJV 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

However, the unbeliever is eternally doomed regardless of how good his actions are. Why? Because he did not believe that God has sent His Son into the world to die for his sins. This is just the plain truth of the scriptures.

Comparing the believer and the unbeliever when they sin, is like comparing a son of the house and a hired servant. They are not the same bro.

The son of the house can get punished severely and still have a right to his father's name. Even if he loses his freedom of movement or a part of his inheritance, he is still his father's son. But the hired servant gets thrown out of the house the moment he breaches the terms of the contract, with absolutely nothing to his name!

Now think of that carefully sir. I pray the Lord grants you the understanding.

unstoppable51:


Did you just say in your first paragraph that 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 is addressed to believers who are living uprightly and not those who sin?

So the Bible is saying in those verses that the Believer who lived uprightly shall suffer a loss of reward, according to you?

Was that a typographical error bro?

If you cannot even be as honest as saying exactly what the scriptures say, but keep insisting on your own, how do we reason the scriptures together then. Seeing that you do not even believe it.

And you calling a sinning believer a SINNER is a clear proof you have not even studied clearly who a believer is and who a sinner is. You still mix the two based on their actions.

Before I end this convo, let me give you a little tip. The Corinthian Christians were doing all sorts of abominable things after they were born again. I mean things that Christians should never do. And Paul had to write 1 and 2 Corinthians to correct them.

But do you know the shocking thing? While addressing these sinning believers who had just done all sorts of abominable things, Paul began by calling them "them that are Sanctified in Christ Jesus" and "Saints" (1 Corinthians 1:2).

Ordinarily, one would expect the apostle Paul to start addressing these Christians as "sinners" because they had fallen into sin. But instead, he still addressed them by their eternal righteous nature and terms in Christ. Do you know why?

Because there is a CLEAR DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE BELIEVER and the unbeliever who sins. They have never been the same in the scriptures. They are not today and will never be tomorrow.

You can decide to stick to what you believe as against the scriptures and even call yourself a man of integrity. But believe me brother, true Biblical integrity is actually melleability in God's hand. Allowing God's Word to confront your religious beliefs and dogmas, straighten and sharpen the ones that badly needs it.

God bless and keep you, and cause the Light of His Word to shine brightly on your paths. I'll stop here for now. The intent of the post was never to start arguments. It was rather to bless lives. And I seriously hope it has achieved that purpose.

Thank you!

MrPRevailer:


When you confess your sins, and ask for the blood, the blood of Jesus washes away your sins. But when you sin again, you are defiled.
1 John 2:1 "I command you to sin not. But if you sin, we have an advocate..."

The most fearful rebuttal for this kind of doctrine is Hebrews 10:26. I'm sure believers like you love to skip that verse in a hurry or avoid the chapter altogether.

"10:26 [b]For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27: But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28: He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?....
1 Corinthians 6:9, Revelation 21:8, Galatians 5:19,
Ephesians 5:6 etc

solreb:


So your conclusion is that a believer who sinned, chose not to repent and died in sin will go to heaven? The 1 John 1:9 you referred to talked about a repentant believer.

Let the believer continue to sin and die in his sin, and expects that grace will cover him. He is deceiving himself just like Paul warned in Rom 6:1. I think you belong to the school of thought that preaches "once saved you are forever saved"

When someone dies it is not the spirit that is saved as you wrote above. It is the soul.

Now let me talk about what you alluded about John says no one born of God will continue to live in sin. YES. That's for a believer whose heart has regenerated and who allows the Spirit of God to work in him.

this is the scenario in real life for you and benefits of others.

1st stage is Justification: You accept Christ by faith, confess your sin. His blood wipes out all your sin and you are declared righteous. Now you a believer. This is termed instant salvation. If you die at that instant, you will make heaven. This is what happened to the thief o the cross.

2nd stage is Sanctification. The fact that you have become a believer does not mean that all your old sinful habits have disappeared. That is why a new convert is nurtured with the word of God (which sanctifies the believer with time) Ps 119:11, John 17:17. As you allow the word to take root in you, the Holy Spirit helps you to start dropping those sinful habits (lying, fornication, fraud, etc) Gal 5:19. You start dying to flesh. The flesh needs to be crucified(Gal 5:24, Rom 8:13-14) This is the sanctification process which will continues through lifetime. Before you even commit sin the Holy Spirit will check you but since you are still in flesh you may still fall in sin. That is why Paul wrote that there is always a contention between the flesh and the Spirit (Gal 5:17). If the flesh win you may end up sinning but a regenerated believer would not be peaceful in his Spirit. He will then confess, repent and he will be forgiven. Of course it is expected that he will not go back sinning. Per adventure he goes back and dies in his sin. HE HAS LOST THE BATTLE. HE WILL NOT MAKE HEAVEN. Rom 6:23. Eze 18:20. The wages of sin is death. The soul that sins shall die.

3rd stage Glorification. That is when we are transformed and put on immortality. That is the ultimate destination for a righteous believer.

FarmTech:

.
I think I understand u. But let me make sth clearer. Christians are to depend on righteousness base on faith in Christ, not on righteousness base on the law. That does not mean that we shud relax and say that Christ have done it all. We have our own sacrifices and sufferings to do. The following vses will help:

Philippians 3:12, NIV: "Not that I have already obtained all this (perfection), or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me."

2 Peter 3:14-18 New International Version (NIV)
So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

2 Timothy 2:21-22 English Standard Version (ESV)
Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.
So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.
.
So to live righteously, we must put in conscious effort. We must try, strive, flee with the help of the holy spirit.

solite3:
unconfessed sin affect a believers relationship with God hence having consequences on their lives.

first of all the book of hebrews addresses Jews who had doubt about the personality of Jesus and his all sufficient and finished work on the cross of calvary.
The sin the writer of Hebrews is talking about is the sin of rejecting Jesus and his work on the cross.
No true believer would reject Jesus and his all sufficient work on the cross for them.
Hebrews 10vv 29, meant that, if a man reject Jesus and the blood he was [to be] sanctified an unholy thing, his punishment is worse than those who rejected moses.

MrPRevailer:


How can you be cherrypicking what is sin?
If you sin wilfully means if you commit any sin willfully. That statement didn't have any limit to what sin.

1 John 3:8 says "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

MrPRevailer:


How can you be cherrypicking what is sin?
If you sin wilfully means if you commit any sin willfully. That statement didn't have any limit to what sin.

1 John 3:8 says "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

solite3:
A believer cannot chose not to repent neither can he die in sin.
No 1 John 1vv9 didnt say a repentant believer rather a man who is born of God.

@bolded that is not what I meant.

A believer might suffer grievously for his sin or lose his reward in eternity but it does not translate to losing his salvation.
THOUGH YOU DID NOT RESPOND EXPRESSLY WHERE A BELIEVER THAT DIED IN SIN WILL END. HEAVEN OR HELL. I have asked this direct question twice but you chose to party it rach time.
But your answer suggests that your sinful believer will make heaven but only lose his rewards. Typically you are saying a SINNER will go to heaven. I can only say God help you and those that hold this kind of belief.


can you be saved without regeneration? Every believer has already being regenerated that is why they would not continue in sin.
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.


1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

That is the expected end for a believer (to he full of the holy spirit and His word so that he will not sin) but it does not happen overnight. That's illustrated the stages. But if you hold the view that once you have become a believer (accepting Christ) you are able to exercise the grace not to commit sin immediately and consistently is not TRUE. We need to let people face reality unless we hold the view that one can continue to live the old sinful life because he cannot lose his salvation (see Ps 51:10)

Read these two verses carefully, anyone who continue to sin has never knew God at any point.
Meaning the man that is born of God is the man that abided in Christ and the man that does not continue in sin.

So what do you call such people? Are they believers (they have declared for Jesus) or unbelievers. Remember where we started from is differentiating BELIEVER AND UNBELIEVER

the bible does not state confessing of sins as part of justification. Infact confession of sins is important in a believer's life to restore broken relationship.


The condition for Justification is, faith in Jesus and his finished work of Christ on the cross not confessing of sins.
Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Confessing here is acknowledgement that one is a SINNER. We have the moralist who believes that they have not committed any sin so why will they need a saviour not realising that ALL men have sinned Rom 3:23


There is gross misinformation in what you wrote there.
First of all, salvation is not about trying to make heaven. It is God saving a man from his sin condition.

We are trying to get academic here. We all know the ultimate reason for salvation. First for man to be restored spiritually here on earth and have relationship with God which continues in eternity.

Salvation includes
Justification/forgiveness
Regeneration ( being reborn spiritually)
Sanctification( growing into the image of Christ)
Preservation( God keeping the believer)
Glorification.

Sanctification is not a battle to make heaven rather a growth towards Christ's image, this growth might have a different rate in every believer, some might be fast some might be slow but it continues until they see Jesus.

I don't know where you saw making heaven in my write up as reason for sanctification. You simply rewrote what I explained as sanctification

When a beleiver is born again he is dead to sin.
This is not automatic. Yes the believer has that grace but must exercise it otherwise he will fall into sin. So he must strive to study the word and live holy. That's what Paul is illustrating in Rom 7, advising to crucify ghecfkesh daily

Romans 6:2
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

*Notice that paul said we are already dead to sin.*
And lastly No Christian can ever perish.



John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

I repeat no one that Christ has saved will ever get lost, saying otherwise is saying Christ is incompetent and lying.

I DO NOT AGREE WITH THAT. THE PERSON THAT CHRIST SAVED MAY DECIDE TO UNFOLLOW CHRIST. Judas Iscariot lost his place. Demas left Paul and Ministry because he loved the world 2 Tim 4:10. Why do you think Paul warned "he that thinks he stands let him not fall (1 Cor 10:12)

solite3:
you have seen that no one who is born of God would go on sinning so anybody who go on Sinning is not born of God.

Which brings us to the fact that a person born of God cannot perish, this is what eternal security teaches.

solite3:
of course yes, we should live right not to achieve righteousness but because we have being made right with God.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

MrPRevailer:



Then your FOCUS should be to preach that believers cease from sin or repent from sins, instead of preaching eternal security

MrPRevailer:


Then your FOCUS should be to preach that believers cease from sin or repent from sins, instead of preaching eternal security

Eviana:



There you have it....the whole essence of Christ' birth, life, death and resurrection.
Victory over sin first and foremost....leading to an eternity with the Lord through His blood and righteousness.
Christ will not save us "in" our sins....but "FROM" our sins. We have to get to a point where we no longer sin "willfully".
Perfectly stated...

solreb:

I agree with you. I have left him with his twisted understanding of the scripture. The simple fact is a believer is faced with temptation to sin and can fall. And if he does not repent, no matter the level of sin, he cannot make heaven.

solite3:
so until you get to that point where you no longer sin, wilfully then you are not saved?

Eviana:


1 John 1:9 (KJV)
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Romans 6:1-2 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?


Romans 6:15 (KJV)
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

1 John 3:9 (KJV)
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Hebrews 10:26-27 (KJV)
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Matthew 5:48 (KJV)
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Philippians 4:13 (KJV)
13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Revelation 2:17 (KJV)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it

Revelation 3:5 (KJV)
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


Revelation 3:21 (KJV)
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


Is it Possible to Live Without Sinning?
https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/36/t/is-it-possible-to-live-without-sinning-

Ray360:

There was a certain Frosbel I knew then in Religion section during the days of Goshen360 and logicoboy and others. I don't know if you're still the one.


I am alarmed at your submission above. Did you just say "We don't need Jesus to be saved"?


what happened to you? Frosbel?


are you an atheist now?


Well, I'll pray for you in my secret place. That's the best I can do. Jesus Loves you.

GRIMMJOE:
Jesus isn't saving, couldn't even save himself.

unstoppable51:
■What really is the judgement day and how is it going to look like? The judgement day is simply a day in which God would separate those who received His life through Faith in His Son Jesus, from those who didn’t. Those who didn’t believe in Him (Jesus), will be separated eternally from Him and the saints. Having been separated from His presence, they shall be utterly destroyed (Hell). Concerning that day, here Is what apostle John wrote to us as believers. Did you notice how he went on from verse 15 to explain something about the man in Christ i.e the believer today? That is because as Jesus IS, so are WE in this present world. The question now is, how is Jesus presently? Well Jesus is RIGHTEOUS, HOLY and WELL-PLEASING (acceptable) to the father. That simply means as believers, we are RIGHTEOUS, HOLY and ACCEPTABLE or WELL-PLEASING to the Father also. As Christ IS, is how we are now and will forever be. That’s why we would have BOLDNESS/CONFIDENCE to stand before Him on that great day of judgement. That is what the Bible teaches.
■Notice how it is clearly explained that God doesn’t want you to live in fear of that day. If you are still afraid of that day, it simply means you have not been made perfect in the love of God. You are yet to understand fully how much God loves you. You are yet to understand all that He has done for you in Christ. You are yet to understand who you are in Christ! Yes the judgement day is coming but Jesus got you covered as a believer. Unlike what is popularly believed out there, your sins are not going to be displayed for the whole world to see and judge your level of performance. You are not going there to be judged by your works but rather your faith in Christ.
■The only time you will ever be judged for your works as a believer is at the Judgement Seat of Christ. This is after you have gone to heaven.
That is where you will receive the reward for the good works you have done here on earth. If you have no good works on your account then, you will certainly have no reward from Him. Though you will still be in heaven. That is because heaven is not a reward for our good we have done. It is a gift we receive by faith in Christ. Left for us, there is no amount of good works we can do that will be enough for us to enter there. So, the last day or the day of Judgement, is the day in which God will judge the whole world. And on that day, only one thing will matter - Faith in Christ....

GRIMMJOE:
Jesus isn't saving, couldn't even save himself.

Kobojunkie:
Save Himself from what exactly? Did Jesus Christ in fact state that He needed saving?

GRIMMJOE:
This was a long time ago, I now believe in God, the creator of everything.

Kobojunkie:
Ok. So, do you now have the answer to your own question?

alBHAGDADI:
This is the truth and nothing but the truth.