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Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this - Culture (4) - Nairaland

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Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Edeyoung: 1:07pm On Apr 30, 2020
TAO11:




Lol!

I have already overflogged this "Oba" issue, and your Bini brothers here couldn't show me the word "Oba" in Edo lexicon from an etymological point of view.

I will share the link with you shortly because I notice your willingness to learn.



Ok thanks
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 1:11pm On Apr 30, 2020
Edeyoung:


Ok thanks

Take it from the comment found at the following link:

https://www.nairaland.com/5802327/name-benin-not-gotten-ife/4#88788879
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Edeyoung: 1:29pm On Apr 30, 2020
TAO11:


Take it from the comment found at the following link:

https://www.nairaland.com/5802327/name-benin-not-gotten-ife/4#88788879



You only explained the etymology of the word and not the reason why oba was made the general word for kingship in yoruba land

Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 1:35pm On Apr 30, 2020
Edeyoung:

Yea i need
Under the sub-heading "Yoruba Raids and the Nupe Invasions", Dr. R.E. Bradbury writes as follows:

"The whole of the North-West Edo area came under Nupe during the latter half of the 19th century. The Nupe invasions are said to be preceeded by incursions from Ibadan under a leader named Aje ... The Ibadan raids seem mainly to have been confined to the North-West corner of the region, but the Ososo people say their ancestors were driven away and their houses burnt by Yoruba before the Nupe came. Osi, Ebune, Ugbosi, Ibillo, Ekor, Ekpessa, Lankpese, Ibiekuma, and Ekpe are among the communities who were scattered or had their settlement sacked by the Yoruba."

Reference:
R. E. Bradbury, Benin Kingdom and the Edo-speaking people of South-Western Nigeria, (1957), p.112.
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 1:39pm On Apr 30, 2020
Edeyoung:


You only explained the etymology of the word and not the reason why oba was made the general word for kingship in yoruba land

You seem not to understand what etymology means. I can explain what it means if you care.

Moreover that particular comment is way way longer than the little part you screenshot and attached here.


In summary, I demostrated that the word "Oba" is originally absent from the Edo lexicon.

I then subsequently showed that the word "Oba" is rooted in the Yoruba lexicon, and that it always always signify King.

So, asking me "why oba was made the general word for kingship" is just like asking an Igbo man why the word "bia" was made the general word for "come".

The origin of the word "Oba" is rooted in the Yoruba lexicon.

And as has been shown from etymological analysis, it simply flowed much later into the Edo lexicon as a loanterm.
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Edeyoung: 1:55pm On Apr 30, 2020
TAO11:

Under the sub-heading "Yoruba Raids and the Nupe Invasions", Dr. R.E. Bradbury writes as follows:

"The whole of the North-West Edo area came under Nupe during the latter half of the 19th century. The Nupe invasions are said to be preceeded by incursions from Ibadan under a leader named Aje ... The Ibadan raids seem mainly to have been confined to the North-West corner of the region, but the Ososo people say their ancestors were driven away and their houses burnt by Yoruba before the Nupe came. Osi, Ebune, Ugbosi, Ibillo, Ekor, Ekpessa, Lankpese, Ibiekuma, and Ekpe are among the communities who were scattered or had their settlement sacked by the Yoruba."

Reference:
R. E. Bradbury, Benin Kingdom and the Edo-speaking people of South-Western Nigeria, (1957), p.112.

Nice.....

Me on my own dont even regard edo north as edo...... The closest edo brothers are esan

Edo north is so mixed with different tribe
Benin, yoruba, esan, igala, nupe and hausas

Calling them edo wont equate thier identity

Ososo bear yoruba names and cultures too
Politically they are edo but culturally they are something else
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 1:57pm On Apr 30, 2020
Edeyoung:


Nice.....

Me on my own dont even regard edo north as edo...... The closest edo brothers are esan

Edo north is so mixed with different tribe
Benin, yoruba, esan, igala, nupe and hausas

Calling them edo wont equate thier identity

Ososo bear yoruba names and cultures too
Politically they are edo but culturally they are something else

Lol

Benin Kingdom's territory protected by the government and military of the Benin Kingdom, and inhabited by Edos and some others was sacked and raided by the Ibadan.

That's the whole point!


Also, Ososo(moye) --- who are largely Edos --- are not the only Edo people mentioned in that reference.

Cheers!
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Edeyoung: 2:06pm On Apr 30, 2020
TAO11:


You seem not to understand what etymology means. I can explain what it means if you care.

Moreover that particular comment is way way longer than the little part you screenshot and attached here.


In summary, I demostrated that the word "Oba" is originally absent from the Edo lexicon.

I then subsequently showed that the word "Oba" is rooted in the Yoruba lexicon, and that it always always signify King.

So, asking me "why oba was made the general word for kingship" is just like asking an Igbo man why the word "bia" was made the general word for "come".

The origin of the word "Oba" is rooted in the Yoruba lexicon.

And as has been shown from etymological analysis, it simply flowed much later into the Edo lexicon as a loanterm.


Lol..... Yea if its a clan that has that particular word bia in igbo atleast they will tell you the reasons why bia subdue the other word for come in ibo
In everything there must be a reason
Even if a person is saying rubbish there must be a reason why he talks rubbish... Probably the person mentally unstable or got anger issue

What am saying is there must be a reason for doing something dont you think

I want to know why always benin
Not only the world oba it was also only the benin who summited thier head for ritual approval


Why always benin....?
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 2:23pm On Apr 30, 2020
Edeyoung:



Lol..... Yea if its a clan that has that particular word bia in igbo atleast they will tell you the reasons why bia subdue the other word for come in ibo
In everything there must be a reason
Even if a person is saying rubbish there must be a reason why he talks rubbish... Probably the person mentally unstable or got anger issue

What am saying is there must be a reason for doing something dont you think

I want to know why always benin
Not only the world oba it was also only the benin who summited thier head for ritual approval

Why always benin....?

Let me turn the table perhaps that will help you see what your question sound like:

(1) What is the word for "hair" in your language?

(2) Why did that word come to be generally used for "hair" in your language?

(3) Why did it replace other/previous words for "hair" in your language?

I hope these three foregoing points forces you to see the implication of your question, and ultimately my point.


Regarding the part where you talked about Bini submitting themselves for ritual, I am not sure what you're saying there. Can you be clearer?
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Edeyoung: 2:49pm On Apr 30, 2020
TAO11:


Let me turn the table perhaps that will help you see what your question sound like:

(1) What is the word for "hair" in your language?

(2) Why did that word come to be generally used for "hair" in your language?

(3) Why did it replace other/previous words for "hair" in your language?

I hope these three foregoing points forces you to see the implication of your question, and ultimately my point.


Regarding the part where you talked about Bini submitting themselves for ritual, I am not sure what you're saying there. Can you be clearer?


Hair means eto and it is just one word for it......


I will give you a better example
Onisan(ass)
Ikebe(ass)
But the environment on this argument is different from the example given again we use both interchanging no one is more used than the other
The word ikebe got out from benin lexicon to nigeria music industry because it is more pleasing while pronouncing and sexy

Again the environment we are arguing this fact has to be considered while you're relating it to another scenario

We are arguing on the fact that benin and ife does not share connections so that is the environment we are arguing on
So you answer in accordance to that environment and not outside it........
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 3:00pm On Apr 30, 2020
Edeyoung:



(1) Hair means eto and it is just one word for it

...

(2) We are arguing on the fact that benin and ife does not share connections so that is the environment we are arguing on
So you answer in accordance to that environment and not outside it........

Thank you!

Just as "hair" means "Eto" in Edo language (and it didn't simply ater come at some point to mean hair).

It is in a similar way that "Oba" has always mean "King" in the Yoruba language.

It didn't come later to replace anything!


(2) For number 2, read the attachment below, and tell me whether or not Ife and Benin have connections (with Ife being the father).

1 Share

Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by samuk: 3:28pm On Apr 30, 2020
Edeyoung:



Hair means eto and it is just one word for it......


I will give you a better example
Onisan(ass)
Ikebe(ass)
But the environment on this argument is different from the example given again we use both interchanging no one is more used than the other
The word ikebe got out from benin lexicon to nigeria music industry because it is more pleasing while pronouncing and sexy

Again the environment we are arguing this fact has to be considered while you're relating it to another scenario

We are arguing on the fact that benin and ife does not share connections so that is the environment we are arguing on
So you answer in accordance to that environment and not outside it........

They like to confuse issues by parroting the word Yoruba that was created recently.

Which of the tribes that now make up Yoruba introduced the word Oba into Benin lexicon?

If they argue that it came with Oranmiyan from Ife, was Ife using the Oba title for their kings or Ooni.

Do they have Oba in Ife or Ooni.

The used of the Oba title is recorded in Benin history as far back as 1400s AD, can the Yoruba point to an earlier written account of the Yoruba history that shows the title of Oba was used in Yoruba land earlier than Benin.

The Yoruba have to provide a written accounts that was written earlier than 1475 not some 1975 or 1984 fabrications that show that the title was being used in Yoruba land then.
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 3:44pm On Apr 30, 2020
samuk:


(1) They like to confuse issues by parroting the word Yoruba that was created recently.

(2) Which of the tribes that now make up Yoruba introduced the word Oba into Benin lexicon?

(3) If they argue that it came with Oranmiyan from Ife, was Ife using the Oba title for their kings or Ooni.

(4) Do they have Oba in Ife or Ooni.

(5) The used of the Oba title is recorded in Benin history as far back as 1400s AD, can the Yoruba point to an earlier written account of the Yoruba history that shows the title of Oba was used in Yoruba land earlier than Benin.

(6) The Yoruba have to provide a written accounts that was written earlier than 1475 not some 1975 or 1984 fabrications that show that the title was being used in Yoruba land then.

(1) Just like "Benin", "Edo", etc. were recent creations.

(2) Ife.

(3) Yes, Ife uses both till date in distinct contexts.

The word "Oba" simply means "King". And this applies all over Yorubaland.

The word "Ooni" does NOT mean "King".

Rather, it means "Owner of ...". It is the royal praise-title for Ife kings.

Other Yoruba kingdoms too have their own different royal praise-titles

(4) Both, as explained in point (3).

(5) Show me the record. Let's begin with you the claimant.

And even if you can, etymology goes way back farther in time than wrtings.

And we have all seen from an etymological analysis that the word "Oba" is not found in the Edo language.

(6) Anyways, I am yet to see your 1475 record showing the word "Oba" for Benin Kings. cheesy

Moreover, your mention of "1975 or 1984" is simply from the effect of your mythomania.

I have already shown you an account written in the 1800s showing an ancient Yoruba use of the word "Oba" for the Alaafin Awole --- A Yoruba king of the 1700s

This simply exposes your "1975 or 1984" claim as emanating from your lying tongue as usual.

In any case, that's not the crux. The crux of the issue (WHICH I AM PREDICTNG YOU WILL IGNORE cheesy) is that, etymology goes far, far, far, far back in time than written documents.

And etymological analysis shows that while the word "Oba" is rooted in, original to, and indigenous to the Yoruba lexicon; it is no where to be found in the Edo lexicon.


Fatuous liar, you got busted again as always!


cc: Edeyoung

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Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Edeyoung: 5:21pm On Apr 30, 2020
TAO11:


Thank you!

Just as "hair" means "Eto" in Edo language (and it didn't simply ater come at some point to mean hair).

It is in a similar way that "Oba" has always mean "King" in the Yoruba language.

It didn't come later to replace anything!


(2) For number 2, read the attachment below, and tell me whether or not Ife and Benin have connections (with Ife being the father).


At the end of it he said no heads were found
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 5:34pm On Apr 30, 2020
Edeyoung:


At the end of it he said no heads were found

Lol!

From the perspective of an archaeologist, the absence of human skulls, etc. disproves nothing about such burial practice.

Rather, it is the absence of burial graves or pits that disproves such olden burial practice. Archaeologists understand that such human remains themselves could well have been exhumed for further sacred/ritual ascension rites soon after their burial.

But guess what!? The archaeological excavation of the burial site in 1962 found the round burial pits.

Again, guess what!? The number of burial pits found there in the 1960s is exactly the same number of Obas' heads mentioned by Egharevba in the 1940s. shocked

Weird crazy coincidence, right? Lol.



But in all, you didnt answer my question at all.

Again, is there connection or not from the facts you read??

1 Like 1 Share

Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Edeyoung: 5:42pm On Apr 30, 2020
TAO11:


Lol!

From the perspective of an archaeologist, the absence of human skulls, etc. disproves nothing about such burial practice.



Rather, it is the absence of burial graves or pits that disproves such olden burial practice. Archaeologists understand that such human remains themselves could well have been exhumed for further sacred/ritual ascension rites soon after their burial.

But guess what!? The archaeological excavation of the burial site in 1962 found the round burial pits.

Again, guess what!? The number of burial pits found there in the 1960s is exactly the same number of Obas' heads mentioned by Egharevba in the 1940s. shocked

Weird crazy coincidence, right? Lol.



But in all, you didnt answer my question at all.

Again, is there connection or not from the facts you read??
TAO11:


Lol!

From the perspective of an archaeologist, the absence of human skulls, etc. disproves nothing about such burial practice.

Rather, it is the absence of burial graves or pits that disproves such olden burial practice. Archaeologists understand that such human remains themselves could well have been exhumed for further sacred/ritual ascension rites soon after their burial.
Hhh
But guess what!? The archaeological excavation of the burial site in 1962 found the round burial pits.

Again, guess what!? The number of burial pits found there in the 1960s is exactly the same number of Obas' heads mentioned by Egharevba in the 1940s. shocked

Weird crazy coincidence, right? Lol.



But in all, you didnt answer my question at all.

Again, is there connection or not from the facts you read??
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 5:44pm On Apr 30, 2020
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Edeyoung: 5:54pm On Apr 30, 2020
gregyboy:



Yoruba man




Benin had connections with yorubas which were recorded in history but With ife NO
That shit was made up in the 30s


[color=#990000]this[color=#990000][/color
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 6:02pm On Apr 30, 2020
Edeyoung:



This[color=#990000][/color]


gregyboy isn't a historian. Lol.

I'm simply asking you your take-away after independently examining those conclusions by those historians.


Again, based on your independent reading, is there (or is there not) an ancient connection between Ife and Benin (with the Benin dynasty deriving from Ife) ?? grin cheesy

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Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by SilverSniper: 8:14pm On Apr 30, 2020
TAO11:


The thing about delusions of grandeur is that you exhibit those traits without realizing it thinking those are simply normal within your right.

Imagine telling an Igbo man or Yoruba man that his kingdom was ruled by your Oba, and yet you think you aren't battling delusions of grandeur.


Regarding slavery, the truth is that, the practice of slavery is well established in human history.

It is a practice that predates the Atlantic slave trade. And it is part of African history --- be it Yoruba or Bini.

So, your talk of sophistication is cheap since the same kingdom which you claimed was reluctant in selling its own people will still end up beheading them as food to Yoruba gods.

It then becomes quite fairly established that the motive for keeping them from being sold (if that's an historical fact) is far far away from been a humanitarian feat.

On the other hand, what I will be more prepared to describe as sophistication in a world where slavery is a historical reality is the establishment of a working system that puts in place extremely stringent conditions that must be met before any citizen can be condemned as inventory of the trade.

And this is true of the Yorubas as the Yorubas had three basic categories of inventory of the trade, namely:

(1) Prisoners of War.
(2) Hardened criminals.
(3) Slaves of the Yorubas bought from the Nupe, the Borgu, and the Hausa.

And regarding the 1st, a very very insignificant portion of this inventory is of Yoruba descent, and the reason for this is borne from the fact that during the most active period of the Atlantic trade (i.e. from the 1500s to the mid-1700s), Yorubaland in general was relatively peaceful throughout most of this period.

So the prisoners largely came from captives from outside of Yorubaland particularly the Nupe, the Bariba, and the Aja --- products of the Oyo wars of expansion.

Other captives are the results of Ibadan raids in parts of Benin Kingdom, and elsewhere.

Regarding the 2nd, most Yoruba governments came to establish the practice of authorizing the sale of hardened criminals who were embarrassments to their lineages and have been renounced by them.

Richard Lander noted an age-old practice during (one of his visits to the Oyo capital) of dealing with such hardened criminals. They were to be inflicted with terrible incisions over their facial marks thus irreversibly disfiguring them.

This becomes a notice to society that the man had been rejected, renounced, and expunged by his lineage. Such people would usually run away to a distant place, but even there he would suffer life-long rejection and scorn and die miserably.

With the coming of the Atlantic slave trade, such persons were authorized to be sold, but again their number were on the whole small.

In sum, Yorubas didn't go the hypocritical route of no we won't sell our people when in fact a worse evil is the sole purpose of keeping them.

No, on the contrary we have simply long developed conventions and systems with stringent conditions that must be met before any citizen can be condemned as inventory of the trade.

Having said that, the age-long attitude of the Yoruba to a slave (be it a Yoruba or a non-Yoruba slave) is that the slave is treated as fairly as possible with basic human rights.

This attitude is almost similar to our modern-day Geneva and Hay conventions on how war-prisoners are to be accorded some fair treatment and some basic human right.

For example, ancient Yoruba customs consider it a serious crime to kill a slave or subject a slave to life-threatening treatment.

In fact, the universal fear of hurting an eru (slave) is illustrated in the dire warning expressed in the words of the following old Ife folk song:

*Mo nre 'le o ---> I must now take my leave for my house.

*Oku Ole ---> You terrible fool of a coward.

*O b'eru ja? ---> You dare contemplate fighting an eru (slave)!?

*B' eru ba ku sio lorun ---- If the eru (slave) dies by your hand.

*K' o a ti se? ---- How would you deal with the consequence?

Now, all the foregoing is what may be regarding as actual and real sophistication --- not some hypocritical self-serving double standard which we see in the Bini practice.

Cheers!

cc: macof MetaPhysical nisai babtoundey

I don't necessarily endorse everything AreaFada2 claimed at all, but this is a bit wide of the truth, not only with respect to Benin, but also with regard to Yorubaland. I won't get into the issue of the slave trade and the Yoruba and Benin areas in any detail here, because these issues have been studied in great detail already by several scholars, and instead I'll just make a brief comment. Although it is true that the slaves that Oyo exported were captured from surrounding groups - this export to the coast (particularly the "Slave Coast" area of west Africa) of slaves (to be later sold to Europeans) taken in wars by Oyo is mentioned in European documents from the mid-1600s onward - it is also true that during the Oyo civil war and the subsequent wars in Yorubaland in the 19th century, there was a significant increase in slaves of Yoruba origin that were being sold to European slave buyers (there were already some Yoruba slaves in the slave trade prior to this, as various European documents from earlier centuries attest to; some of these may have come from Ijebu, which is noted as selling slaves in European sources).

I wouldn't say the Benin kingdom "did not participate" in the slave trade, but it was a very minor player compared to many other African kingdoms. The very strict restrictions on the slave-trade that Benin imposed - after the initial slave trade with the Portuguese that did occur for about three decades in the late 15th to the early 16th century - actually led to two centuries of there being practically no slaves exported from Benin to Europeans. Even after that two centuries, in the 18th century when the slave-trade did reemerge in Benin for some decades, the numbers involved were very small, especially when compared to some other prominent Nigerian and west African states. This is actually discussed and analyzed in detail in Ryder's 1969 book that you asked me about in that other thread, but there other scholars besides Ryder who reached a very similar conclusion independently of Ryder by simply looking at what the sources show.

Regarding "food", the historian Samuel Johnson made the following claim in his book:

"The origin of the Ijebus has been variously given ; one account makes them spring from the victims offered in sacrifice by the King of Benin to the god of the ocean, hence the term Ijebu from Ije-ibu, i.e., the food of the deep. The Ijebus themselves claim to have descended from Oba-nita, as they say of themselves, "Ogietiele, eru Obanita," i.e., Ogetiele, servants of Obanita. But who was this Oba-nita? Tradition says he also was a victim of sacrifice by the Olowu or King of Owu." - Samuel Johnson, The History of the Yorubas, pp. 18-19

A historian, Tunde Oduwobi, gives an interesting analysis of this ascription of servile origins to the Ijebu in his publication "Early Ìjèbú history: An analysis on demographic evolution and state formation" (2006). Oduwobi also notes in that article and in another article that, of course, the Ijebu had their own completely different traditions about their origins.
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by kayfra: 10:24pm On Apr 30, 2020
gregyboy:



The names omited by roupell was completed by esekhure
And oromiyan again was omitted

Orhamiyan

Read!
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by samuk: 10:35pm On Apr 30, 2020
[quote author=SilverSniper post=89038931]

I don't necessarily endorse everything AreaFada2 claimed at all, but this is a bit wide of the truth, not only with respect to Benin, but also with regard to Yorubaland. I won't get into the issue of the slave trade and the Yoruba and Benin areas in any detail here, because these issues have been studied in great detail already by several scholars, and instead I'll just make a brief comment. Although it is true that the slaves that Oyo exported were captured from surrounding groups - this export to the coast (particularly the "Slave Coast" area of west Africa) of slaves (to be later sold to Europeans) taken in wars by Oyo is mentioned in European documents from the mid-1600s onward - it is also true that during the Oyo civil war and the subsequent wars in Yorubaland in the 19th century, there was a significant increase in slaves of Yoruba origin that were being sold to European slave buyers (there were already some Yoruba slaves in the slave trade prior to this, as various European documents from earlier centuries attest to; some of these may have come from Ijebu, which is noted as selling slaves in European sources).

I wouldn't say the Benin kingdom "did not participate" in the slave trade, but it was a very minor player compared to many other African kingdoms. The very strict restrictions on the slave-trade that Benin imposed - after the initial slave trade with the Portuguese that did occur for about three decades in the late 15th to the early 16th century - actually led to two centuries of there being practically no slaves exported from Benin to Europeans. Even after that two centuries, in the 18th century when the slave-trade did reemerge in Benin for some decades, the numbers involved were very small, especially when compared to some other prominent Nigerian and west African states. This is actually discussed and analyzed in detail in Ryder's 1969 book that you asked me about in that other thread, but there other scholars besides Ryder who reached a very similar conclusion independently of Ryder by simply looking at what the sources show.

Regarding "food", the historian Samuel Johnson made the following claim in his book:

"The origin of the Ijebus has been variously given ; one account makes them spring from the victims offered in sacrifice by the King of Benin to the god of the ocean, hence the term Ijebu from Ije-ibu, i.e., the food of the deep. The Ijebus themselves claim to have descended from Oba-nita, as they say of themselves, "Ogietiele, eru Obanita," i.e., Ogetiele, servants of Obanita. But who was this Oba-nita? Tradition says he also was a victim of sacrifice by the Olowu or King of Owu." - Samuel Johnson, The History of the Yorubas, pp. 18-19

A historian, Tunde Oduwobi, gives an interesting analysis of this ascription of servile origins to the Ijebu in his publication "Early Ìjèbú history: An analysis on demographic evolution and state formation" (2006). Oduwobi also notes in that article and in another article that, of course, the Ijebu had their own completely different traditions about their origins.

Samuk:

Please share the history of the various Yoruba tribes and clans as recorded by Yoruba historian themselves.
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by AreaFada2: 11:11pm On Apr 30, 2020
SilverSniper:


I don't necessarily endorse everything AreaFada2 claimed at all, but this is a bit wide of the truth, not only with respect to Benin, but also with regard to Yorubaland.

I wouldn't say the Benin kingdom "did not participate" in the slave trade, but it was a very minor player compared to many other African kingdoms. The very strict restrictions on the slave-trade that Benin imposed - after the initial slave trade with the Portuguese that did occur for about three decades in the late 15th to the early 16th century - actually led to two centuries of there being practically no slaves exported from Benin to Europeans. Even after that two centuries, in the 18th century when the slave-trade did reemerge in Benin for some decades, the numbers involved were very small, especially when compared to some other prominent Nigerian and west African states. This is actually discussed and analyzed in detail in Ryder's 1969 book that you asked me about in that other thread, but there other scholars besides Ryder who reached a very similar conclusion independently of Ryder by simply looking at what the sources show.

Regarding "food", the historian Samuel Johnson made the following claim in his book:

"The origin of the Ijebus has been variously given ; one account makes them spring from the victims offered in sacrifice by the King of Benin to the god of the ocean, hence the term Ijebu from Ije-ibu, i.e., the food of the deep. The Ijebus themselves claim to have descended from Oba-nita, as they say of themselves, "Ogietiele, eru Obanita," i.e., Ogetiele, servants of Obanita. But who was this Oba-nita? Tradition says he also was a victim of sacrifice by the Olowu or King of Owu." - Samuel Johnson, The History of the Yorubas, pp. 18-19

A historian, Tunde Oduwobi, gives an interesting analysis of this ascription of servile origins to the Ijebu in his publication "Early Ìjèbú history: An analysis on demographic evolution and state formation" (2006). Oduwobi also notes in that article and in another article that, of course, the Ijebu had their own completely different traditions about their origins.
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by AreaFada2: 11:42pm On Apr 30, 2020
SilverSniper:


I don't necessarily endorse everything AreaFada2 claimed at all, but this is a bit wide of the truth, not only with respect to Benin, but also with regard to Yorubaland.

I wouldn't say the Benin kingdom "did not participate" in the slave trade, but it was a very minor player compared to many other African kingdoms. The very strict restrictions on the slave-trade that Benin imposed - after the initial slave trade with the Portuguese that did occur for about three decades in the late 15th to the early 16th century - actually led to two centuries of there being practically no slaves exported from Benin to Europeans. Even after that two centuries, in the 18th century when the slave-trade did reemerge in Benin for some decades, the numbers involved were very small, especially when compared to some other prominent Nigerian and west African states. This is actually discussed and analyzed in detail in Ryder's 1969 book that you asked me about in that other thread, but there other scholars besides Ryder who reached a very similar conclusion independently of Ryder by simply looking at what the sources show.

Regarding "food", the historian Samuel Johnson made the following claim in his book:

"The origin of the Ijebus has been variously given ; one account makes them spring from the victims offered in sacrifice by the King of Benin to the god of the ocean, hence the term Ijebu from Ije-ibu, i.e., the food of the deep. The Ijebus themselves claim to have descended from Oba-nita, as they say of themselves, "Ogietiele, eru Obanita," i.e., Ogetiele, servants of Obanita. But who was this Oba-nita? Tradition says he also was a victim of sacrifice by the Olowu or King of Owu." - Samuel Johnson, The History of the Yorubas, pp. 18-19

A historian, Tunde Oduwobi, gives an interesting analysis of this ascription of servile origins to the Ijebu in his publication "Early Ìjèbú history: An analysis on demographic evolution and state formation" (2006). Oduwobi also notes in that article and in another article that, of course, the Ijebu had their own completely different traditions about their origins.

I used the word "banned". Do you ban something that never existed?

At least you have admitted that Benin imposed huge restrictions. I have mentioned it many times on threads here over the years. Narcotics is banned by virtually every country. Yet illegal narcotics trade worldwide is worth about $360 billion annually. Some say even more. Compare that to Nigeria's $29 billion budget for 2019.

I have also mentioned the role my family played at some point in enforcing slave ban in the Empire.

Fact is many slaves said to originate from Benin Kingdom were not Benin people. The history is clear of how Royal troops broke holding cells at Gwatto to free Benin speaking slaves, most likely victims of raids in Benin fringe villages. One such liberation caused an incident between an Oba and Europeans long long before 1897. Again I have mentioned this years ago.

If Olaudah Equiano had not written a book in 1789, we would not have known his story. He identified himself as an Ibo and a citizen of Benin Kingdom. He narrated how he was captured in a raid by slave robbers in that book. A book anyone curious above slavery should have read by now.

Benin needed men for war and maintaining the territories. Women to bear children. So selling slaves meant decimating the land. Even captured war slaves served better purposes in Benin: artisans, domestic, farmers and some even rose high in society depending on talent and opportunity. It was simple logic.
TAO1 and others copy and paste copiously from various sources. They seem impressed by those. But I grew up in a house with a rich library with Ryder and other publications, books, journals and others on history. Not only that, history manuscripts for publication and lecture notes were prepared in my presence growing up. Long before internet. We actually had to read. Not lazily copy and paste from online.

Considering the centuries slavery lasted, 15 million people shipped, assuming your few decades of slavery Benin participated in (doubtful anyway) is even true, isn't it still remarkable that against European pressure to get slaves and the bountiful reward from slavery, Benin managed such a ban for so long?

TAO1 went into sacrifices, is there any notable ancient civilization that didn't do such sacrifices? From Germanic tribes, to Israelites, Egyptians, Mayan/native Americans to Abobaku killings in Yorubaland. They just bring in matters anyhow to derail sensible discourse.
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by SilverSniper: 12:15am On May 01, 2020
AreaFada2:

Considering the centuries slavery lasted, 15 million people shipped, assuming your few decades of slavery Benin participated in (doubtful anyway) is even true, isn't it still remarkable that against European pressure to get slaves and the bountiful reward from slavery, Benin managed such a ban for so long?

I wouldn't say it's "doubtful anyway". One of the earlier written sources to mention the Benin kingdom, Duarte Pacheco Pereira's Esmeraldo de Situ Orbis, which dates from the beginning of the 16th century (it was written between 1505 and 1508), notes that the Benin kingdom was "usually at war with its neighbours and takes many captives", which they sold to the Portuguese. However, later Portuguese sources from only about two decades into the 16th century indicate that Benin had restricted the slave trade heavily. Actually the king of Portugal at that time wrote a letter to the king of Benin requesting that the king of Benin "open his markets", by which he was referring to slave-markets. Part of the letter is quoted in Ryder's book. Benin did not lift the restrictions, and as a result the Portuguese gradually started to go west to the early Allada kingdom to obtain slaves.

This is why I said about three decades. The Portuguese made contact with Benin in 1485, a slave trade later developed (although Benin also traded other things with the Portuguese at that time, particularly pepper) at some point between 1485 and the time that Pereira's book is referring to, but by the 1520s that early Benin-Portugal slave trade was basically dead.

Anyway, I do not think there is so much disagreement in general in our ideas about this, more like differences in details. Your mention of captured slaves from wars most likely serving a productive role in Benin's economy is also something I would agree with, and is actually a fairly standard academic view (for example, an article about Benin's civil war that I referenced in another thread actually mentions this).
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Nobody: 2:50am On May 03, 2020
There is no such thing as etymology for Yoruba or even Edo languages.
Indeed etymology is sort of the history of the written word. And we didn't have written languages until the colonial era. So any attempt at etymology is a 419 scam.
I am disappointed that none of you was able to point this out before my intervention.

The Yoruba have perfected deception, so you need to be wise to not fall for their tricks.

West African etymology is 100% 419 business.
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Nobody: 3:05am On May 03, 2020
RamessesIV:
...
If you want to fvck tao11 then go into a chatroom with him/her. Stop your ass kissing. And don't drag Edo history through the mud just because you want to get laid by some yoruba fat smelly pig who spends all his/her time on nairaland discussing Benin.

According to these Yoruba the Edo are nothing but an insignificant minority, yet all the Yoruba do is talk about us and try to attach us to them by every means possible.

Stop confusing the trash which you read online with reality. And stop thinking with your hormones. You very easily confuse ethnocentric Yoruba myths about Benin's past with actual Benin myths and of course you don't seem to see the difference between myth and history, like many Nigerians though.


History relies on proof. That is the difference.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MqF5JhgX0g
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 3:57am On May 03, 2020
Ghostwon5:
If you want to fvck tao11 then go into a chatroom with him/her. Stop your ass kissing. And don't drag Edo history through the mud just because you want to get laid by some yoruba fat smelly pig who spends all his/her time on nairaland discussing Benin.

According to these Yoruba the Edo are nothing but an insignificant minority, yet all the Yoruba do is talk about us and try to attach us to them by every means possible.

Stop confusing the trash which you read online with reality. And stop thinking with your hormones. You very easily confuse ethnocentric Yoruba myths about Benin's past with actual Benin myths and of course you don't seem to see the difference between myth and history, like many Nigerians though.

History relies on proof. That is the difference.

RamessesIV come and see one of those of your own whom I was talking about some days ago.

For him and others like him, you are not truly an Edo person if you are not a tribal bigot.

You are not truly an Edo person if you do not habour hatred for the Yoruba person.

That was precisely what gregyboy was calling your attention to in the link below when he insisted that you aren't truly Esan.

https://www.nairaland.com/5824498/benin-ife-never-connections-more/1#89003944

He couldn't fathom the fact that you are an Edo person, and yet you do not hate the Yoruba person --- He struggled with the fact that you followed a Yoruba person (thet is, me) on Nairaland.

For them, you must live and breathe hatred to qualify as a bonifide Edo.

1 Like 1 Share

Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 4:12am On May 03, 2020
Ghostwon5:
There is no such thing as etymology for Yoruba or even Edo languages.
Indeed etymology is sort of the history of the written word. And we didn't have written languages until the colonial era. So any attempt at etymology is a 419 scam.
I am disappointed that none of you was able to point this out before my intervention.

The Yoruba have perfected deception, so you need to be wise to not fall for their tricks.

West African etymology is 100% 419 business.

Shut up your lying smelly wide rotten mouth! grin cheesy

Etymology, has nothing peculiarly to do with writing.

You think everyone here is as foolish as gregyboy who lick up your hairy stenchy dirty butthole? grin

Africans somehow have no clue what their own words mean, unless it's written on some paper.

What can be more ridiculous!? grin

2 Likes

Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Nobody: 6:27am On May 03, 2020
To the guy claiming to be Esan:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MqF5JhgX0g

The Esan traditional rulers recognize the Oba of Benin as their father !
I guess your internet-trash reading didn't tell you this.
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by Nobody: 7:04am On May 03, 2020
Ghostwon5:
There is no such thing as etymology for Yoruba or even Edo languages.
Indeed etymology is sort of the history of the written word. And we didn't have written languages until the colonial era. So any attempt at etymology is a 419 scam.
I am disappointed that none of you was able to point this out before my intervention.

The Yoruba have perfected deception, so you need to be wise to not fall for their tricks.

West African etymology is 100% 419 business.
Re: Benin And Ife Never Had Any Connections more facts to this by TAO11(f): 7:26am On May 03, 2020
Ghostwon5:
There is no such thing as etymology for Yoruba or even Edo languages.
Indeed etymology is sort of the history of the written word. And we didn't have written languages until the colonial era. So any attempt at etymology is a 419 scam.
I am disappointed that none of you was able to point this out before my intervention.

The Yoruba have perfected deception, so you need to be wise to not fall for their tricks.

West African etymology is 100% 419 business.

Shut up your lying smelly wide rotten mouth! grin cheesy

Etymology, has nothing peculiarly to do with writing.

You think everyone here is as foolish as gregyboy who lick up your hairy stenchy dirty butthole? grin

Africans somehow have no clue what their own words mean, unless it's written on some paper.

What can be more ridiculous!? grin

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