₦airaland Forum

Scholar8200:
I have said so before! See:



That's because the elect in Matthew 24 are not the same with those in 1Peter hence no correlation nor basis of comparison. The salvation referred to in the parlance of the one is different from that referred to by the other hence no basis of comparison exists!


That was not the purpose of the Letter. Besides, Peter wrote this below, do you therefore assume to know better?:

20 For if[b] after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.[/b]

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2 Peter 2:20,21

Take note, they were genuinely saved but they backslid! Whither your claims of Eternal Security??! Or are there 2 classes of Christians the saved but not elects, and the saved and elect


This is very similar to Paul writing about the Church and Israel thus:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, [size=15pt]if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off[/size].

Romans 11:21,22

All based on John 15:2. Recall that this verse started by saying Israel were:

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
Romans 11:2

You appear confused about the word 'elect' and ''foreknew'. Understand that they also were cut off! Whither the basis of "Eternal Security".

The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation but only them that believe experiences this power. However, if we fail to hold fast and continue in the faith, we are cast forth and if we dont make our way right will be told, "I never knew you"!

Scholar8200:
It is a contention! The elects during the GT refer to those originally so called in Isaiah 45 which I quoted before! Why will the Church be here to face the GT?

Scholar8200:
If the Church will be here then who are the elects then, and what or who does the GT serve to awaken?

Scholar8200:
Peter was not writing on eschatological events!!! Indeed there are various parts of the NT where the Church is called the elect, in fact one passage calls the Church the Israel of God. However, we are referring to a time when the spiritual elects/Israel - the Church- will no longer be on Earth. Then the nation - Israel- called the elect in Isaiah 45 will be the reference and object.

Scholar8200:
According to the setting of the passage, the elect (israel), will be saved from the GT by the shortening of the days.
21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened
Matthew 24:21,22

here we see what the elect would be saved from during the GT.

Hence, inasmuch as the elect during the GT is not the Church, your attempt at applying Matthew 24 to the Church is wrong

1 ¶ Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Scholar8200:
In the context of Matthew 24, the salvation of the elects refers to their deliverance from the rampaging antichrist. Not the salvation by Grace.

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be [size=18pt]saved out of it[/size].

Jeremiah 30:7


After 3.5 years of this trouble, then follows the battle of Amargeddon which starts with the Descent of Jesus Christ and the destruction of the antichrist, false prophet and their armies. At this time, the Israelites would receive Him.

Matthew 24 focuses Eschatological happenings!

Scholar8200:
We dont need to go too far. First clarify your stand bearing John 15:2 in mind.
[size=14pt]
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:2[/size]

That passage speaks of the time of the Great Tribulation and Bible tells us who the elects will be at that time after the rapture of the Church:

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
Jeremiah 30:7

The GT would focus on Israel and the latter would seek the Messiah Who they once rejected. Hence after the rapture/catching away of the Church, the elect in that context of Matthew 24 refer NOT to the Church(already gone) but to Israel.

For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isaiah 45:4

Scholar8200:
We are saved by faith. Now can a believer fall or depart from the faith?Are there any warnings to believers of this possibility? If yes, what are the consequences if that happens?

Your answer to this answers all the above.

22[b] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.[/b]
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 ¶ Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

alolatee:
who are reformers?Are they not saints?Any born again child of God is a reformer, not to talk of Pastor W.F Kumuyi a world-wide evangelist and christian leader.

Scholar8200:
Grace and Truth came by Jesus and here's what HE said:

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

John 15:6-8

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Scholar8200:
Implication is:
1. The Vine holds the branch yet the branch in HIM that is fruitless will be cast forth! Whither your claims of Eternal security, once saved always saved? Or predestination?

Scholar8200:
2. Note that the branch to be cast forth was once IN the Vine! This knocks down your claims that some people that backslid in the NT were not actually saved.

Scholar8200:
3. We are saved by faith but if that faith does not , by the Indwelling Spirit(not by self-effort or struggling), reveal itself in fruitfulness we are cast forth just like Israel was and we CANNOT lay claims to be His disciples! And in the end, we shall be told,"I never knew you"

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

jiggaz:
A Bible Study by Jack Kelley

One of the most telling indicators that the rapture is near is the number of people who write fearing that because of their behavior they’re going to be left behind. People didn’t worry so much about that when they thought the rapture was off in the distant future.

I’m sure some of this is due to the normal conviction of the Holy Spirit and in that case it’s not a rapture issue because as we’ll see born again believers can’t be excluded from the Rapture for any reason.

No, I think most of the fear of missing the rapture comes from the false “partial-rapture” teaching. There are several variations on this theme but they all claim that just being saved is either not enough to put you in the rapture, or it’s not enough to get you into the Kingdom after you are raptured. They say you also have to be worthy in some additional way. In my opinion none of this can be reconciled with Scripture.

I want to approach the subject the way the US Treasury department trains bank employees to recognize counterfeit money. Instead of showing them all the fakes and pointing out what makes them fake, they focus on what legitimate bills look like. That way when bank tellers spot a bill that doesn’t look like what they have learned to recognize, they know it has to be a fake.
Let’s use that same principle to focus on what the Bible says about who qualifies for the rapture. Then we’ll know whether what we hear matches that. If it doesn’t it’s a false teaching.

How Do We Qualify?

In order to exist in the presence of God, we have to be as righteous as He is. In the Lord’s time the Pharisees were thought to be the most righteous men in Israel. They were absolutely compulsive about keeping the Law, even straining their water before drinking it to avoid accidentally swallowing a tiny bug.

They come off badly in the Bible because of their resistance to the Gospel, but they were held in high esteem by the people as role models of righteousness.
Their problems with Jesus began in the early days of His ministry. Speaking to a large group on the shores of the Sea of Galilee, Jesus said, “For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven” (Matt. 5:20 ). They didn’t like hearing that they would be excluded from the Kingdom.

Then He explained that righteousness is not just a matter of outward behavior, but also includes inner motivation. Anger is as bad as murder, lustful thoughts are as bad as adultery. He went on to teach them things that were utterly amazing to them, even saying they must “Be perfect therefore, as your Father in Heaven is perfect” (Matt. 5:48 ) in order to qualify for the Kingdom . By the time He was finished it was clear that no human on Earth could ever achieve this high standard.

Then He said if they asked Him for this righteousness He would give it to them. All of them. He said, “Everyone who asks receives. He who seeks finds, and to Him who knocks the door will be opened (Matt. 7:7-8 ).

He compared depending on Him to a narrow road with a small gate (Matt. 7:13-14 ). The name on the gate is faith. The temptation to do things in our own strength in an effort to secure our own righteousness is hard to resist, but if we’re not careful we’ll find ourselves on the wrong road, the broad one with the wide gate named works.
We must watch out for false teachers who will try to take us off the narrow road with a combination of faith and works. It doesn’t matter what kind of good work we do, even if we do it in His name, only those who do the will of our Father in Heaven will enter the Kingdom (Matt. 7:13-23 ). And what is our Father’s will?

Jesus said, “I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:38-40 )

And what kind of work does He require of us? When they asked Him this a few verses earlier, He replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent” (John 6:29) There’s nothing you can add to your faith in what the Lord has done. No good works of yours will either earn or hold your place in the rapture. It’s based totally on what you believe and not on how you behave.
Paul had a lot to say about this, and some of it has been misinterpreted too.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. (Romans 3:21-22 )

Our righteousness is imputed to us by faith because of our belief that when Jesus went to the cross He took all the sins of our life and paid the full penalty for them there (Colossians 2:13-14 ). If all the penalty for all your sins has already been paid, what more can you do?

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! (2 Cor. 5:17 )

From God’s perspective, the old sinner no longer exists. He’s been replaced by the new righteous saint. How could this be?

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God (2 Cor. 5:21 ). Because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (Hebrews 10:14 )

Because of our faith in the sufficiency of the cross, God is able to see us not as we are but as we will become when we’re perfected in the rapture. The sins we still commit are viewed as if it’s no longer us doing the sinning but the sin nature that still temporarily dwells within us. Here’s Paul again.

I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. (Romans 7:18-20 )

Those who want to deny this call our attention to passages like 1 Cor. 6:8-10 as if Paul, writing under the influence of the Holy Spirit could contradict himself.

“Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

But they stop too soon because in verse 11 Paul explained, “And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” (1 Cor. 6:11 )

Notice he said, “And that is what some of you were.” Because we’re a new creation, God no longer sees us the way we used to be. We’ve been washed, sanctified and justified. In other words, all our sins have been washed away by the blood of Jesus, we’ve been made holy by Him, and He has rendered us righteous. As righteous as He is. Please understand that all this was done by Him. We might have been part of the group described in
1 Cor. 6:9-10 sometime in the past, but because we accepted the Lord’s sacrifice on our behalf we no longer are.
Some folks can’t get past the idea that being good has to count for something and it does, but it’s not what they think. Once again we’ll get Paul’s input.

“Everything is permissible”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible”—but not everything is constructive. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others. (1 Cor. 10:23-24 )

Although we’re encouraged in the strongest possible way to behave in a manner pleasing to the Lord, no where in the New Testament are we told that our behavior will endanger our salvation, nor will it jeopardize our place in the rapture. So while we can theoretically do whatever we want, some behavior is just not good. First of all, our bad behavior can have a negative impact others. We should always be aware of how our actions are being viewed, and we should never knowingly behave in a manner that causes a weaker brother to stumble.

Second, and more important, living up to what we have already attained (as Paul put it in Phil. 3:16 ) is how the Lord wants us to express our gratitude to Him for what we’ve been given. Not to earn or keep anything, but to give thanks for what we already have. It’s something He wants us to want to do.

You see, we didn’t get where we are because of any merit or worthiness on our part. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2:4-9 ) It’s the best gift ever given, it’s free, and it’s worthy of our gratitude.

So the bottom line is your ticket to the rapture came with your membership in the Church. It’s part of the inheritance you were guaranteed when you first believed (Ephes. 1:13-14 ). And your membership in the Church came as a result of your belief that Jesus gave His life to pay the penalty for all your sins and rose again to show that His payment was sufficient (Romans 10:9 ). As soon as you believed that you became as righteous as He is. There’s nothing you can do for good or bad that will ever change that (Romans 8:38-39 ). So if we’re all as righteous as God is, how can some deserve to go in the rapture or gain entry into the Kingdom while others don’t? They can’t.

As an expression of your gratitude you can choose to behave in a manner that’s more pleasing to God. That’s what He wants you to do. But you’d better hurry because soon you won’t even be able to do that. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thes. 4:16-17 ) You can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah. 04-09-11

https://gracethrufaith.com/end-times-prophecy/left-behind-for-bad-behavior/

Scholar8200:
Grace and Truth came by Jesus and here's what HE said:

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

John 15:6-8

Implication is:
1. The Vine holds the branch yet the branch in HIM that is fruitless will be cast forth! Whither your claims of Eternal security, once saved always saved? Or predestination?

2. Note that the branch to be cast forth was once IN the Vine! This knocks down your claims that some people that backslid in the NT were not actually saved.

3. We are saved by faith but if that faith does not , by the Indwelling Spirit(not by self-effort or struggling), reveal itself in fruitfulness we are cast forth just like Israel was and we CANNOT lay claims to be His disciples! And in the end, we shall be told,"I never knew you"

petra1:
Nice point

solite3:
yes he does it on one condition if we surrender to him

solite3:
I know there is eternal security in Christ. Salvation is not based on our works at all but based on the saving power of Christ both in saving and in keeping us. We have no power at all to save ourselves.
Amen

Scholar8200:
Grace and Truth came by Jesus and here's what HE said:

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

John 15:6-8

Implication is:
1. The Vine holds the branch yet the branch in HIM that is fruitless will be cast forth! Whither your claims of Eternal security, once saved always saved? Or predestination?

2. Note that the branch to be cast forth was once IN the Vine! This knocks down your claims that some people that backslid in the NT were not actually saved.

3. We are saved by faith but if that faith does not , by the Indwelling Spirit(not by self-effort or struggling), reveal itself in fruitfulness we are cast forth just like Israel was and we CANNOT lay claims to be His disciples! And in the end, we shall be told,"I never knew you"

solite3:
I know there is eternal security in Christ. Salvation is not based on our works at all but based on the saving power of Christ both in saving and in keeping us. We have no power at all to save ourselves.
Amen

solite3:
you are right! What is done after salvation is as a result of being saved that is my point.

Scholar8200:
Let's consider:

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 John 2:1

1. It says we are to sin not- that is the norm, a state of true soul health
2. It says IF not WHEN any man sins. Meaning it might come as a surprise, not a normal aspect of the new life.
3. It says we have an Advocate with the Father. Meaning If sin comes in, we will once again need the mediation of our Advocate, not a flippant claim of, "God sees me through Jesus hence it does not matter". The imagery here is what was painted in the OT when a trespasser came to the High Priest with a sacrifice. However, now, He is the Advocate, He is the sacrifice, we come by faith and repentance.
4. Does this mean we are free to continue in the sin-and-repent vicious circle?

6 [b]No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him—deliberately, knowingly, and habitually commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him
1 John 3:6[/b]AMP

alolatee:
in addition bro Jesus said in the gospels if a person sins against you annd comes back to say sorry, we should forgive him no matter how may times he comes.I think this illustration rightly also depicts the forgiving nature of Christ.No matter how many times a sinner comes to Christ if he is born again, he is forgiven.There is no permanent eternal security on earth, however whenn we get to heaven, we will be eternally secured.As scholars like Pastor W.F Kumuyi rightly wrote i his book, 'you must be saved', he supports conditional eternal security as against the teaching of Carlvin which supports unconditional eternal security in other words he is saying, you are secured if you keep on conditionally depending on Christ and the salvation he offers as against Carlvin's unconditional eternal security which says no matter whatever you do once you are saved, you are saved unconditionally.

solite3:
what they do having being saved abi? I m not talking about what you do to be saved but after you are saved.

solite3:
The philosophy that says when you are saved then you cannot lose it even if you walk after the flesh is a big lie which romans has denounced.

solite3:
Salvation is free but there is a condition which is continue in the spirit.

solite3:
If you sin as a christian kindly humble and admit your sins like david before the Lord and ask for his forgiveness.

solite3:
This world is a test place nothing is parmanet!

promise10:
I CANNOT describe how antichristic you are towards the finished work of christ with words! It is really a shame to write what you wrote! So senseless!!!

You just made me SO angry, by TOTALLY DEVALUEING the finished work of christ!!!!

You are just a victim of CROSS-LESS SALVATION GOSPEL! BUT, I tell you, YOUR DEVILISH plan of victimising people with you CROSs-LESS Gospel WILL NEVER WORK HERE. IT IS ENTIRELY FRUSTRATED!!!!

First of all, you blindly and ignorantly quotes rom8:1 which you don't even understand.

But, I will do that verse a justice by reading it in many versions, only if you can learn.

ROMAN 8:1

ASV
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

AMP
Therefore there is now no condemnation [NO GUILTY NO VERDICT, NO PUNISHMENT] for those who are in
Christ Jesus [who BELIEVE in Him as personal Lord and Savior].



CJB
Therefore, there is no longer any condemnation awaiting those who are IN UNION(through faith alone) with the Messiah Yeshua.

CEV
If you BELONG to Christ Jesus, you WON'T be punished.


ERV
So now anyone who is in Christ Jesus IS NOT JUDGED GUILTY.



EXB
So now, those who are in Christ Jesus are not ·judged guilty [condemned; PUNISHED FOR THEIR SINS].

GW
So those who are believers in Christ Jesus can NO LONGER BE CONDEMNED.



ISV
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in union with the Messiah Jesus.



TLB
So there is now no condemnation awaiting those who belong to Christ Jesus.

NCV
So now, those who are in Christ Jesus are not judged guilty.


NIRV
Those who belong to Christ Jesus are NO LONGER UNDER GOD'S JUDGEMENT

NLV
Now, because of this, those who
belong to Christ will NOT SUFFER the
punishment of sin.


I am not yet done, but just to keep things short.

OLAADEGBU:
Who told you Christian terrorists scare no one?

MuttleyLaff:
Whether Eternal Security is a theological doctrine or not, the reality is that there is eternal life, where one is eternally saved
- #1 saved, #2 being saved and #3 hope to be kept saved for this eternal life

MuttleyLaff:
Good
but hang on, please are you equating re-justified or justification with born again?

MuttleyLaff:
In light of your above response, so how do Adam & Eve, Judas, Ananias and Sapphira fare or stand in all this

MuttleyLaff:
Many christian will be faced with ''I did not know you''
Notice it isnt saying ''I used to know you''
but it is saying upon all the ''good'' work, all the ''miracles'', all the ''tongue speaking'' etcetera ''I did not know you''

MuttleyLaff:
A lot of christians are going to have a severe shock when confronted with the ''I did not know you'' truth of the situation

Before answering, in a simplest and true manner, define and explain born again, exactly as Jesus meant it

solite3:
ROM 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus[b], who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit[/b]
@ bold there is no condemnation to those in Christ who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. This proves the false teaching of once saved already saved a lie from hell.
There is condemnation to those in Christ who are walking after the flesh.
When a christian sins, it means he is walking after the flesh which means he is in danger of condemnation.
You are saved only when you abide in Christ ( walks in the spirit) John 15:4)
When you are saved your only duty is to continue in walking in the spirit of holiness and righteousness which you received from Christ else you will be rejected as one having a spotted garment.
Remember the parable of the man who held a wedding ceremony for his son.
There were people who didn't honor his invitations
And there was a man who accepted him as king and honored his invitation but had not the right wedding garment.
The garment that you receive from Christ you must do well to maintain it through the holy spirit in you. [b]You must walk after the Spirit of christ! [/b]To remain a saved person!
The philosophy that you are still saved regardless of you committing sins is a pure lie

MuttleyLaff:
It is either you're looking for an agument
or that you're a mind reader to know what I think

In that post, did the man arrive at shore not depending on another and did he arrive a shore without outside help right to the end?

MuttleyLaff:
What is with this? What's with John 6?

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out

MuttleyLaff:
and where have you found me posting ''Work out your salvation'' means ''save yourselves''?
Do the drowning at sea save themselves?

promise10:
Only if their nairaland high priest(scholar2800) will agree with you

petra1:
Is there such thing as eternal security
What is eternal security

Can a christian sin

Can a christian lose salvation

Can a christian lose salvation by committing a sin.

How many times can a man be born again.

petra1:
Is there such thing as eternal security
What is eternal security

Can a christian sin

Can a christian lose salvation

Can a christian lose salvation by committing a sin.

How many times can a man be born again.

MuttleyLaff:
On this subject matter, I can see from both promise10's and my quotes, that promise10 and I with my diagram, my bit of narrative backed with some scriptures, are totally saying the same thing

Dare I say, the quotes unwittedly complement each other.

promise10 says: we were saved once at the cross for the reason of christ's sacrifice, which took place ONCE and for ALL
MuttleyLaff says with #1: Whilst, swimming and about drowning at sea, boat comes to save, by pulling drowning swimmer out from the ocean of life, after which when the saved swimmer is onboard, boat will head to shore for safety

For God says,
"At just the right time, I heard you. On the day of salvation, I helped you."
Indeed, the "right time" is now. Today is the day of salvation
- 2 Corinthians 6:2 NLT

that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God's grace that you have been saved!)
- Ephesians 2:5 NLT

promise10 says: And our STEADFAST FAITH in what gave us our first salvation, is what KEEPS US SAVED! So, when you say "being saved", that should mean BEING KEPT saved which ONLY happens through FAITH ALONE.
MuttleyLaff says with #2: The swimmer is first saved when swimmer came on board the ship.
As long as the swimmer stays on the boat, away from the impending destructruction and danger at sea,
the swimmer, whilst the boat heads for safety at shore, remains saved, is kept saved and is being saved from perishing

Our lives are a Christ-like fragrance rising up to God. But this fragrance is perceived differently by those who are being saved and by those who are perishing.
- 2 Corinthians 2:15 NLT

promise10 says: we were saved once at the cross for the reason of christ's sacrifice, which took place ONCE and for ALL.

And our STEADFAST FAITH in what gave us our first salvation, is what KEEPS US SAVED! So, when you say "being saved", that should mean BEING KEPT saved which ONLY happens through FAITH ALONE.

Now, what "..WILL be saved" should mean is that WE WERE saved, WE ARE BEING KEPT saved, so that shall NOT PARTAKE(shall) OF the judgment of hell fire AT THE JUDGEMENT DAY.
MuttleyLaff says with #3: If the saved swimmer remains and/or stays on board the boat, up to when boat reaches the shore, then saved swimmer has made shore and is saved from the dangers and wrath to visited at sea

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life
- Romans 5:9-10

11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
- 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
- Philippians 2:12 KJV

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

MuttleyLaff:
I dont follow, you quoted promise10
but then said: How someone can use this verse to support lose of salvation as MuttleyLaff beats your imagination.

I dont seem to understand why or what MuttleyLaff has done wrong

MuttleyLaff:
Yes, there is such thing as eternal security.
It is also known as eternal life

It a crowning moment, and happens at the end or completion of the following:
#1 saved,
#2 being saved and
#3 hope to be saved
https://s31.postimg.org/w25moseiz/eternal_Security.jpg

#1 saved as in:
For God says,
"At just the right time, I heard you. On the day of salvation, I helped you."
Indeed, the "right time" is now. Today is the day of salvation
- 2 Corinthians 6:2 NLT

We were given this hope when we were saved. (If we already have something, we don't need to hope for it.
- Romans 8:24 NLT

that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God's grace that you have been saved!)
- Ephesians 2:5 NLT

#2 being saved as in:
Our lives are a Christ-like fragrance rising up to God. But this fragrance is perceived differently by those who are being saved and by those who are perishing.
- 2 Corinthians 2:15 NLT

and
#3 hope to be saved as in:
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life
- Romans 5:9-10

11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
- 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
- Philippians 2:12 KJV

Sin means missing the mark. Everyone, believers inclusive, now and/or then do miss the mark hence can and/or do sin

Yes, though saved, if such, without safely reaching the shore or harbor, due to sea sickness etcetera, jumps off a ship whilst being saved, then such would lose salvation, lose being saved and dash away any hope to be saved once reaching the shore or harbor

Yes particularly when it comes to missing the mark with the Holy Spirit
(i.e. sinning against the Holy Spirit)
28“Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter;
29but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin''
- Mark 3:28-29

31Wherefore I say unto you,
All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men:
but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him:
but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
- Matthew 12:31-32

This depends on how born again is used in this question.
If used, as a verb, then possibly and potentially more than one time
If it is used, as an adjective, in a similar way as Jesus did, then all it takes is one time only

promise10:
I hope that what you meant by the word "..being saved...and will be saved" is not that we are not saved once and for all?

@Image123, we were saved once at the cross for the reason of christ's sacrifice, which took place ONCE and for ALL.

And our STEADFAST FAITH in what gave us our first salvation, is what KEEPS US SAVED! So, when you say "being saved", that should mean BEING KEPT saved which ONLY happens through FAITH ALONE.

Now, what "..WILL be saved" should mean is that WE WERE saved, WE ARE BEING KEPT saved, so that shall NOT PARTAKE(shall) OF the judgment of hell fire AT THE JUDGEMENT DAY.

And that "..WILL BE saved" is NOT what happens in our life time but what happens on the JUDGEMENT DAY.

Rom 5:9;"9 Much more then, BEING NOW SAVED(justified) by his blood, we shall be SHALL BE SAVED from WRATH through him."

The wrath of God in that context is NOT what happens today, but the wrath of God is on the judgement day that's why we SHALL BE saved from it BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED NOW BY HIS BLOOD.

Today, the wrath of God is NOT now, but shall come on the judgement day. So, if today is not the day of wrath, what is today? 2cor 6:2 answers that!

2cor 6:2;"2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the DAY OF SALVATION have I succoured thee: behold, NOW is the accepted time; BEHOLD, NOW IS THE DAY OF SALVATION.).

Today is not the day of wrath, but the DAY OF SALVATION. God cannot be saving and destroying at the same time. No way!

petra1:
Salvation was wrought only in the spirit . The soul salvation is progressive . The body salvation will be the end result in immortality . For now the body is unsaved . It's still mortal . The salvation of the body is glorification and immortality

petra1:
Is the body born again?

Is the mind born again?

MuttleyLaff:
I cannot believe reading you too making another generalised remark in this manner and especially an unguarded one in regards to thinking
What were you thinking or werent thinking, pun not intended
Maybe you meant doing thinking a wrong way or going about thinking the wrong way, hardly helps progress in spiritual matters

An unthinking person believes everything, but the prudent one thinks before acting
- Proverbs 14:15 ISV

Apart from Proverbs 14:15 above, God in Joshua 1:8, advises Joshua to mediate (i.e. think deeply) on ''spiritual matters''
King David in Psalm 119:15, said he mediates (i.e. reflects or thinks) on God's guiding principles and studies His ways
In Psalm 119:97, King David says, he so much love God's instructions he thinks about them all day long.

Does anyone discuss, argue or reason without thinking?
Thinking is acceptable, allowable, permitted or tolerable.
God in Isaiah 1:18, throws down the gauntlet with an invitation to THINK

The bible in Proverbs 4:5, says, get wisdom (i.e. get skillful at making good and right decisions), get understanding (i.e know the why, the how, the when etc)
Further on the bible persist in talking about wisdom, again, in Proverbs 4:7 that, wisdom is the principal thing (i.e. the summit); therefore get wisdom: and with all your getting get understanding

What can wisdom be if not something borne out from sensible or wise thinking
How does one make considered decisions over matters or come to sensible conclusions over issues, if not by, after or from thinking
Dead or alive, (i.e. dead in a parable or alive on earth) thinking of some or any sort is done

Now Image, if what you were on about is that, foolish thinking hardly helps progress in spiritual matters, then I am 120% gidigba-no-shaking with and behind you

If the bible in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 says, prove all things and hold fast that which is good
then how you'll going to prove things without critical thoughts about them

Am sure Image123, you arent one of those who associate enquiring minds' investigative and/or critical thinking with skepticism and criticism

Image123:
Thinking hardly helps progress in spiritual matters. thinking makes many an atheist. When your understanding of God is based MORE on thinking, you will not get it. fact.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

Gombs:
Standing ovation.


Wonderful piece!

I'm thinking, what kind of father will disown his child because he stole sweets, and then reclaim him after the child has apologized, and keeps doing so, for how long?

Knowing fully well that the Bible said foolishness abounds in the heart of a child.

The Corinthians and galatians were never said to have lost their salvation despite their shortfalls, for the ONLY WAY one can loose their salvation is the same way he got it - with his confession of mouth, denouncing the lordship of Christ.

Some folks here are sounding like God's waiting to catch us do wrong, then he'd keep record of it, waiting for pay back time.

Brethren, God has settled the issue of sin in Jesus, since... And He has no issue with fixing it. Why He doesn't want us to sin is because we'd expose ourselves to the working of devils. He so loves us and wouldn't want the devil to have party time with us (kill, steal and destroy) , but we regardless sometimes fall off. That never means he revokes our SONSHIP, meaning we'd loose our very righteous nature given us by Jesus, pending when we ask for forgiveness. That doesn't make sense at all.

The issue of sin is between the one who commits the sin, his conscience and the devil. God isn't bothered about sin, His laws and justice will however not be compromised.