₦airaland Forum

An2elect2:
Thank you 5Solas. Glory to our Lord and Sovereign God!!!

Great comment. Well done!

Do protestants ever check history? How can they be happy to associate with reformed men like Martin Luther and not consider what they preached.

An2elect2:
Chapter 2

Statement of the Doctrine

In the Westminster Confession, which sets forth the beliefs of the Presbyterian and Reformed Churches and which is the most perfect expression of the Reformed Faith, we read: "God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

From all eternity God has purposed to do just exactly what He is doing. He is the sovereign Ruler of the universe and "does according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest thou?" Daniel 4:35. Since the universe had its origin in God and depends on Him for its continued existence it must be, in all its parts and at all times, subject to His control so that nothing can come to pass contrary to what He expressly decrees or permits. Thus the eternal purpose is represented as an act of sovereign predestination or foreordination, and unconditioned by any subsequent fact or change in time. Hence it is represented as being the basis of the divine foreknowledge of all future events, and not conditioned by that foreknowledge or by anything originated by the events themselves.
The Reformed theologians logically and consistently applied to the spheres of creation and providence those great principles which were later set forth in the Westminster Standards. They saw the hand of God in every event in all the history of mankind and in all the workings of physical nature so that the world was the complete realization in time of the eternal ideal. The world as a whole and in all its parts and movements and changes was brought into a unity by the governing, all-pervading, all-harmonizing activity of the divine will, and its purpose was to manifest the divine glory. While their conception was that of a divine ordering of the whole course of history to the veriest detail, they were especially concerned with its relation to man's salvation. Calvin, the brilliant and systematic theologian of the Reformation, put the matter thus: "Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself, what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some and eternal death for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say he is predestinated either to life or to death." [ Institutes, Book III, Ch. XXI, sec. 5.] That Luther was as zealous for absolute predestination as was Calvin is shown in his commentary on Romans, where he wrote: "All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned." And Melanchthon, his close friend and fellow-laborer, says: "All things turn out according to divine predestination; not only the works we do outwardly, but even the thoughts we think inwardly"; and again, "There is no such thing as chance, or fortune; nor is there a readier way to gain the fear of God, and to put our whole trust in Him, than to be thoroughly versed in the doctrine of Predestination." "Order is heaven's first law." From the divine viewpoint there is unbroken order and progress from the first beginnings of the creation to the end of the world and the ushering in of the kingdom of heaven in all its glory. The divine purpose and plan is nowhere defeated nor interrupted; that which in many cases appears to us to be defeat is not really such but only appears to be, because our finite and imperfect nature does not permit us to see all the parts in the whole nor the whole in all its parts. If at one glance we could take in "the mighty spectacle of the natural world and the complex drama of human history," we should see the world as one harmonious unit manifesting the glorious perfections of God. "Though the world seems to run at random," says Bishop, "and affairs to be huddled together in blind confusion and rude disorder, yet, God sees and knows the concatenation of all causes and effects, and so governs them that He makes a perfect harmony out of all those seeming jarrings and discords. It is most necessary that we should have our hearts well established in the firm and unwavering belief of this truth, that whatever comes to pass, be it good or evil, we may look up to the hand and disposal of all, to God. In respect of God, there is nothing casual nor contingent in the world. If a master should send a servant to a certain place and command him to stay there till such a time, and, presently after, should send another servant to the same place, the meeting of these two is wholly casual in respect to themselves, but ordained and foreseen by the master who sent them. They fall out unexpectedly as to us, but not so as to God. He foresees and He appoints all the vicissitudes of things." [Quoted by Toplady in Preface to Zanchius' Predestination.] The psalmist exclaimed, "O Jehovah our Lord, How excellent is thy name in all the earth!" And the writer of Ecclesiastes says, "He hath made everything beautiful in its time." In the vision which the prophet Isaiah saw, the seraphim sang, "Holy, holy, holy, is Jehovah of hosts: The whole earth is full of His glory." When seen from this divine view-point every event in the course of human affairs in all ages and in all nations has, no matter how insignificant it may appear to us, its exact place in the development of the eternal plan. It has relations with preceding causes and exerts an ever widening influence through its effects so that it is related to the whole system of things and has its individual part in maintaining the perfect equilibrium of this world-order. Many instances might be given to show that events of the greatest importance have often depended upon what at the time appeared to be the most fortuitious and trivial events. The inter-relation and connection of events is such that if one of these were to be omitted or modified, all that follows soon would be modified or prevented. Hence the certainty that the divine administration rests on the foreordination of God extending to all events both great and small. And, strictly speaking, no event is really small; each one has its exact place in the divine plan, and some are only relatively greater than others. The course of history, then, is infinitely complex, yet a unit in the sight of God. This truth, together with the reason for it, is very beautifully summed up in the Shorter Catechism which states that, "The decrees of God are, His eternal purpose, according to the counsel of His will, whereby for His own glory, He hath foreordained whatsoever comes to pass." Dr. Abraham Kuyper, of Holland, who is recognized as one of the outstanding Calvinistic theologians in recent years, has given us some valuable thought in the following paragraph: "The determination of the existence of all things to be created, or what is to be camellia or buttercup, nightingale or crow, hart or swine, and equally among men, the determination of our own persons, whether one is to be born as boy or girl, rich or poor, dull or clever, white or colored or even as Abel and Cain, is the most tremendous predestination conceivable in heaven or on earth; and still we see it taking place before our eyes every day, and we ourselves are subject to it in our entire personality; our entire existence, our very nature, our position in life being entirely dependent on it. This all embracing predestination, the Calvinist places, not in the hands of man, and still less in the hand of blind natural force, but in the hand of Almighty God, sovereign Creator and Possessor of heaven and earth; and it is in the figure of the potter and the clay that Scripture has from the time of the prophets expounded to us this all-dominating election. Election in creation, election in providence, and so election also to eternal life; election in the realm of grace as well as in the realm of nature." [Lectures on Calvinism, p. 272.] We can have no adequate appreciation of this world-order until we see it as one mighty system through which God is working out His plans. Calvin's clear and consistent theism gave him a keen sense of the infinite majesty of the Almighty Person in whose hands all things lay, and made him a very pronounced predestinarian. In this doctrine of the unconditional and eternal purpose of the omniscient and omnipotent God, he found the program of the history of the fall and redemption of the human race. He ventured boldly but reverently upon the brink of that abyss of speculation where all human knowledge is lost in mystery and adoration. The Reformed Faith, then, offers us a great God who is really the sovereign Ruler of the Universe. "Its grand principle," says Bayne, "is the contemplation of the universe of God revealed in Christ. In all places, in all times, from eternity to eternity, Calvinism sees God." Our age, with its emphasis on democracy, doesn't like this view, and perhaps no other age liked it less. The tendency today is to exalt man and to give God only a very limited part in the affairs of the world. As Dr. A. A. Hodge has said, "The new theology, asserting the narrowness of the old, is discarding the foreordination of Jehovah as a worn-out figment of the schools, discredited by the advanced culture of today. This is not the first time that the owls, mistaking the shadow of a passing eclipse for their native night, have prematurely hooted at the eagles, convinced that what is invisible to them cannot possibly exist." [Popular Lectures on Theological Themes, p. 158.] This, in general, is the broad conception of predestination as it has been held by the great theologians of the Presbyterian and Reformed Churches. Foreordination is explicitly stated in Scripture. Acts 4:27, 28: For of a truth in this city against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together, to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel foreordained to come to pass. Ephesians 1:5: Having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will. Ephesians 1:11: In whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His will. Romans 8:29, 30: For whom He foreknew, He also foreordained to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom He foreordained, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified. 1 Corinthians 2:7: But we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory. Acts 2:23: Him (Jesus) being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hands of lawless men did crucify and slay. Acts 13:48: And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Ephesians 2:10: For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them. Romans 9:23: That He might make known the riches of His glory upon the vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory. Psalm 139:16: Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them.

Cc 5Solas

KingEbukasBlog:
So you saying people are predestined for hell ? If yes , provide bible verses to support that .

KingEbukasBlog:
Why the obsession with freewill and predestination ? Where do you actually stand ?

An2elect2:
They just can't see who is behind the scene...or have seen but pride would not let them submit to the truth. How can Salvation be lost when the condition for remaining saved is God's to fulfil!

Anyway, so were we until God had mercy on us and showed us these things and gave us new hearts to accept them!!!

An2elect2:
You agree Eternal life is a gift?

Lol the contradiction again.
"Eternal life is a gift but you have to work for it too" No need for long argument. You don't believe it's a gift but a reward. You are just not stupid to bluntly say it. Still yet, any objective person can see what you implying.

No one works for a gift. Imagine after working my life out to earn a monthly pay and it's termed a gift not a reward on point of reception. Doesn't make sense because that would mean I don't deserve the pay in spite of my work. For it to be a gift, then I can't work for it but would get it on a platter.

Freewillers cannot see eternal life as a gift. If they do they will have to accept the doctrine of predestination and election which they hate. So I understand why you have to "twist" the truth to make eternal a "gift and a reward".

Even when I showed you that it wasn't Eternal life Paul was pummeling his body for? And also showed you that Paul did nothing without God's grace working in him? You still think God's grace isn't sufficient but a special effort from Paul. Well it's not that I've not provided any point against that it is that you don't see eternal life as a gift. Because if you did you would not interpret a verse that is not talking of eternal life against one that plainly spells it out.


For someone who believes salvation or eternal life is a reward, I don't see you interpreting that another way.

[i] This is drawn because "eternal life is a reward"

You are getting bolder now. Now you can say "It is a reward" Yet in order not to sound too "biblically off" you still "maintain" it's a gift.



[i] Sure you can if it depends on you. But in the Bible it depends on God. His grace and promises.
Yes thanks, I'm sticking with the Bible



Why won't it be "an effort" when "Salvation or eternal life is a reward" Not expecting you to contradict yourself, am I?


Ya you obeyed from that stony, wicked and deceitful heart. It was really an effort!
Sure! The Bible is such a book of lies. How dare it say no one can do good or non is righteous or non is seeking God when there are people (outside Christ)according to you who can choose not to submit themselves to sin. There are definitely people who would not submit their bodies to sin and are living sinless lives. It's not an automatic submission but a willful submission. Yeah let God be a liar and Freewillism true.



Ya Bible says Sin cannot have dominion over believers anymore because they are under grace, but I forgot for freewillism to have its way, the believer must not think he is no more a slave of sin and now a slave of righteousness but he must see sin as his master still.

Moreso Bible says People who leave us were never a part of us. Like Judas, they appear to be spiritually called. But freewillism has to rear its ugly head and twist the truth into a beautiful lie.
When "eternal life and salvation are rewards" works and efforts become inevitable. Grace is only an abstract thing that only offers forgiveness but is not an ability to overcome sin. Your freewill theology has been consistent so far

Yeah when the enemy wants to plant his children in the midst of God's children he won't give them a form of godliness and false righteous appearance to deceive the truly called. He would plant atheists in the midst of unbelievers. Indeed.

"Isn't Salvation a reward"



Exactly! God can't be the one working inside of us both to will and to do but He is just a standby supplying us power occasionally.

It's high time we removed parts of the scriptures because they are really getting in the way of freewillism!



Very consistent. "Eternal life is a reward"


How do we arrive at all these wrong conclusions? Simple.

When we believe that we are not dead in sins and trespasses Ephesians 2:1,2.

And when we believe Salvation is not a gift but a reward or part-gift. Ephesians 2:8,9.

An2elect2:
Is the doctrine of predestination part of the gospel message for unbelievers Sir?
Is there a set time to know this doctrine, before or after salvation?

An2elect2:
Ya we have derailed enough o chai!

menxer:
that is because the predestination which this thread sets out to discuss predestinated the derailment.

An2elect2:
THE REFORMED DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION

Chapter I

Introduction

The purpose of this book is not to set forth a new system of theological thought, but to give a re-statement to that great system which is known as the Reformed Faith or Calvinism, and to show that this is beyond all doubt the teaching of the Bible and of reason.

Then, too, when we stop to consider that among nonChristian religions Mohammedanism has so many millions who believe in some kind of Predestination, that the doctrine of Fatalism has been held in some form or other in several heathen countries, and that the mechanistic and deterministic philosophies have exerted such great influences in England, Germany, and America, we see that this doctrine is at least worthy of careful study. From the time of the Reformation up until about one hundred years ago these doctrines were boldly set forth by the great majority of the ministers and teachers in the Protestant churches; but today we find far the greater majority holding and teaching other systems. It is only rarely that we now come across those who can be called "Calvinists without reserve." We may quite appropriately apply to our own churches the words of Toplady in regard to the Church of England: "Time has been when the Calvinistic doctrines were considered and defended as the Palladium of our Established Church; by her bishops and clergy, by the universities, and the whole body of the laity. It was (during the reigns of Edward VI, Queen Elizabeth, James I, and the greater part of Charles I) as difficult to meet with a clergyman who did not preach the doctrines of the Church of England, as it is now to find one who does. We have generally forsaken the principles of the Reformation, and Ichabod, or 'the glory is departed,' has been written on most of our pulpits and church-doors ever since." [Preface to Zanchius' Predestination, p. 16.] The tendency in our enlightened age is to look upon Calvinism as a worn-out and obsolete creed. At the beginning of his splendid article on "The Reformed Faith in the Modern World," Prof. F. E. Hamilton says, "It seems to be tacitly assumed by a large number of people in the Presbyterian Church today that Calvinism has been outgrown in religious circles. In fact, the average church member, or even minister of the gospel, is inclined to look upon a person who declares that he believes in Predestination, with a glance of amused tolerance. It seems incredible to them that there should exist such an intellectual curiosity as a real Calvinist, in an age of enlightenment like the present. As for seriously examining the arguments for Calvinism, the idea never enters their heads. It is deemed as out of date as the Inquisition, or the idea of a fiat world, and is looked upon as one of the fantastic schemes of thought that men held before the age of modern science." Because of this present day attitude toward Calvinism, and because of the general lack of information concerning these doctrines, we regard the subject of this book as one of great importance. It was Calvin who wrought out this system of theological thought with such logical clearness and emphasis that it has ever since borne his name. He did not, of course, originate the system but only set forth what appeared to him to shine forth so clearly from the pages of Holy Scripture. Augustine had taught the essentials of the system a thousand years before Calvin was born, and the whole body of the leaders of the Reformation movement taught the same. But it was given to Calvin with his deep knowledge of Scripture, his keen intellect and systematizing genius, to set forth and defend these truths more clearly and ably than had ever been done before. We call this system of doctrine "Calvinism," and accept the term "Calvinist" as our badge of honor; yet names are mere conveniences. "We might," says Warburton, "quite as appropriately, and with equally as much reason, call gravitation 'Newtonism,' because the principles of gravitation were first dearly demonstrated by the great philosopher Newton. Men had been fully conversant with the facts of gravitation for long ages before Newton was born. These facts had indeed been visible from the first days of creation, inasmuch as gravitation was one of the laws which God ordained for the governing of the universe. But the principles of gravitation were not fully known, and the far-reaching effects of its power and influence were not understood until they were discovered by Sir Isaac Newton. So, too, was it with what men call Calvinism. The inherent principles of it had been in existence for long ages before Calvin was born. They had indeed been visible as patent factors in the world's history from the time of man's creation. But inasmuch as it was Calvin who first formulated these principles into a more or less complete system, that system, or creed, if you will, and likewise those principles which are embodied in it, came to bear his name." [Calvinism, p. 2.] We may add further that the names Calvinist, Lutheran, Puritan, Pilgrim, Methodist, Baptist, and even the name Christian, were originally nicknames. But usage has established their validity and their meaning is well understood. The quality which gave such force to Calvin's teaching was his close adherence to the Bible as an inspired and authoritative book. He has been referred to as preeminently the biblical theologian of his age. Where the Bible led, there he went; where it failed him, there he stopped short. This refusal to go beyond what is written, coupled with a ready acceptance of what the Bible did teach, gave an air of finality and positiveness to his declarations which made them offensive to his critics. Because of his keen insight and power of logical development he has often been referred to as merely a speculative theologian. That he was a speculative genius of the first order is, of course, not to be denied; and in the cogency of his logical analysis he possessed a weapon which made him terrible to his enemies. But it was not on these gifts that he depended primarily when forming and developing his theological system. Calvin's active and powerful intellect led him to sound the depths of every subject which he touched. In his investigations about God and the plan of redemption he went very far, penetrating into mysteries concerning which the average man seldom if ever dreams. He brought to light a side of Scripture which had as yet been very much in the shade and stressed those deep truths which in the ages preceding the Reformation had comparatively escaped notice in the Church. He brought to light forgotten doctrines of the apostle Paul, and fastened them in their full and complete sense upon one great branch of the Christian Church. This doctrine of Predestination has perhaps raised a greater storm of opposition, and has doubtless been more misrepresented and caricatured, than any other doctrine in the Scriptures. "To mention it before some," says Warburton, "is like shaking the proverbial red flag before an enraged bull. It arouses the fiercest passions of their nature, and brings forth a torrent of abuse and calumny. But, because men have fought against it, or because they hate it, or perhaps misunderstand it, is no reasonable or logical cause why we should turn the doctrine adrift, or cast it behind our backs. The real question, the all-important question, is not: How do men receive it? but, Is it true?" [Calvinism, p. 23.] One reason why many people, even supposedly educated people, are so quick to reject the doctrine of Predestination is because of pure ignorance of what the doctrine really is and of what the Bible teaches in regard to it. This ignorance is not at all surprising when one considers the almost complete lack of Bible training in our day. A careful study of the Bible would convince many people that it is a very different book than they assume it to be. The tremendous influence which this doctrine has exerted in the history of Europe and America should at least entitle it to a respectful hearing.

Furthermore, we submit that according to all the laws of reason and logic a person has no right to deny the truth of a doctrine without first having studied in an unprejudiced manner the evidence on both sides.

An2elect2:
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

A false Christian is not aware of how blind and deceitful his heart is. His false assurance produces a great confidence in his own opinions.Jonathan Edward

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

JMAN05:
He won't be unjust if he decided to save some, and condemn many who chose the wrong path. but He would be unjust to predestine them for evil, and then kill them for acting out a role he wrote for them.

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

JMAN05:
John 6:45 explains:

45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by Jehovah.’ Everyone who has listened to the Father and has learned comes to me"

So if any of the Jews back then were sincere lovers of God, they would easily accept what Jesus said and follow him. This doesn't mean that if you are blocked hearted like the pharisees and chooses not to believe in God no matter the evidence, that God will draw you. Draw you for what? To come and become a Christian halfheartedly?

For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

menxer:
How can anyone know who is born again?
Not possible.
There is no faithometer or spiritometer to measure that.

@bolded, That is as true as the reverse is.
Little by little we are peeling the layers...

@underlined, calls the creation story to question, making the Anunnaki version more believable.

Splinz:
Not that the true Church of God has ever taught that some are predestined to be saved and some to lost. The doctrine of predestination as taught today is nothing but a sham; a false representation of who God is and His plans for mankind.

You see, contrary to the false belief that TODAY is the only day for salvation, the bible shows that it is not. God is not calling everyone TODAY. If He was, then He is failing woefully and Satan is more successful than Him. Think of the billions of people that have not even heard of the name of Jesus. Think of those in gentile nations who died before Christ. Think of the billions of others practicing other faiths. The question is: what becomes of them—perished?

No!

If there's anyone who is really in danger now, it is he/she who is CALLED already and is being judged (1 Peter 4:17). These are the ones who are called first and the whole world following later. Ezekiel 37 prophesied of such a time. All those who appeared to die “without a chance” will be given their first chance to learn the truth. Some have portrayed this as a “second chance.” We have been accused of believing the doctrine of a second chance. But this will be the first opportunity—the first chance—for many to be called.

If people do not know God’s truth or were predestined not to, how can they be judged as having rejected or disobeyed it? On what basis could God condemn anyone who never knew that what they were doing was wrong or sin? What does the Bible actually say on this critical matter?

Consider! James 4:17 states, “Therefore to him that knows to do good [God’s law: Rom. 7:12], and does it not, to him it is sin.” The key is knowledge—what one knows about right and wrong—that gives God a basis for evaluating how a person has or has not yielded to Him.

Further, Hebrews 10:26-27 states, “If we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries [of God].” There is no misunderstanding this plain verse. Willful sin against God can only occur “after” one has “received the knowledge of the truth”—or after one has been called by God to understand His plan. Once again, it is clear that God considers what you do with what you know to be the standard for measuring Christian conduct.



Honestly, you're right. It paints God in the worse conceivable light—the architect of all evil! It's quite pathetic, but you know as I've stated before, let God be true and every man a liar.

menxer:
You right, but the question is, how are you sure Nigerians are among those that were "given" to him?

Even if we were/are drawn to him, don't forget he also said "not all those that call him Lord will enter into eternal life"

Can you see that catch-22 in all these?

No matter how much we twist it (predestination) to fit our belief or what we want to believe the catch-22 is obvious.

menxer:
If you say Paul knew that they were some chosen for salvation implies he knew they were those chosen for damnation, meaning his preaching was a coin toss, no certainty of who will be saved.

From your comment, salvation meant different things to different people at different times.

@bolded, what I meant is, is it safe to say Pst Kumuyi, TB Joshua, Pst E. Adeboye, Bishop Oyedepo, Pst Oyakhilome are "saved," or predestinated for eternal life, in the context of this discussion?
Can anyone know that for sure?

menxer:
how?

that quote to me makes nonsense of the evangelism work of the church, why even try to "save" someone that was preordained/predestinated to eternal death?

i will understand trying to "save" those who were predestinated to life but lost their way, but what of those who are safely "saved," in the arms of the church but were predestinated to death?

you see, this doctrine of predestination poses a catch-22 to the doctrine of salvation by Jesus Christ.

menxer:
how?

1.that quote to me makes nonsense of the evangelism work of the church, why even try to "save" someone that was preordained/predestinated to eternal death?

2.i will understand trying to "save" those who were predestinated to life but lost their way, but what of those who are safely "saved," in the arms of the church but were predestinated to death?

you see, this doctrine of predestination poses a catch-22 to the 3.doctrine of salvation by Jesus Christ.

menxer:
here is what i quoted from the book under review, which formed the basis for my questions:

"Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself, what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some and eternal death for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say he is predestinated either to life or to death." [ Institutes, Book III, Ch. XXI, sec. 5.]

fit your sermon into that.

Splinz:
Just What Does Predestination Mean?

There are only four places where the King James Version of the Bible uses either the word “predestinate” or “predestinated.”

So, we must certainly admit that the word is in the Bible. It is only its meaning that is still in question. Let’s read the four verses and then return to them for explanation.

The first two places are in Ephesians 1:4-5 and 1:11-12: “According as He has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption [Greek: sonship] of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will…In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will: That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.”

The other two places are in Romans 8:28-30: “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He did foreknow [step one], He also did predestinate [step two] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called [step three]: and whom He called, them He also justified [step four]: and whom He justified, them He also glorified [step five].”

We can already draw two conclusions. Did you see anything about people being predestinated to be either “lost” or “saved”? Emphatically, NO! This idea is just not there and any honest reading of the scriptures cannot make it say this. There is no reference to anyone having their fate predetermined through any supposed doctrine about predestination.

When did God decide to call those who are alive in this age?

Now notice II Timothy 1:9: “Who has saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.” This verse does tell us that God decided to call some in this age “before the world began.” This answers the question of when God chose to call us but Ephesians 1:5 explains what was the purpose of our calling.

Ephesians 1:5 said, “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children [Greek: spirit of sonship],” and verse 11 added, “being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things.” These two verses, coupled with II Timothy 1:9, make absolutely plain that God has predestinated certain people to the purpose of becoming sons of God! There is nothing here about being predestinated to be lost or, for that matter, saved—though salvation is described here as the purpose offered to people that God calls.

Carefully notice verse 12 and the phrase “being predestinated…That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.” Paul is recording the fact that God is harvesting a few “firstfruits” now—of those “who first trusted in Christ.” The world will come second, but a few are being called and trained now to be first in God’s plan! This is an amazing and wonderful understanding. Do you grasp it? Can you see the potential within this understanding for how God might use you?

Romans 8 requires some further explanation. It actually describes five separate steps or stages as God works with a Christian from the very beginning all the way to the completion of his salvation. To “foreknow” just means to know before. There is nothing mysterious in the word and, of course, God did know us before we knew Him. At some point in God’s examination and foreknowing of any single person, He predestines, or determines, that person to be “called.” When God’s predetermined time arrives, He calls the person. The person now comes to know who God is (remember, God “foreknew” him, knew him before the one called was aware) because He is revealing Himself during the calling process. If a person responds to the call, and is converted, then that one becomes “justified”—forgiven of his sin and made just before God. Likewise, if the person continues to yield to God throughout his or her life, it will lead to “glorification”—salvation. These are the five steps describing how God works with each person—foreknow, predestine, call, justify and glorify.

Therefore, the subject of predestination has nothing whatsoever to do with being saved or lost, but with being called. More specifically, it has to do with those who are called FIRST.

So then, God decided long ago (“before the world began”) to call a group, over a 6,000-year period, to be trained to rule with Christ. He did not know their names in advance or He would have had to cause all of the fornication, rape, incest and interracial marriage that, to a certain degree, would have been involved in the 6,000 years of events required to produce any particular person. God determined to call the weak, foolish, base and despised of this world to “confound the wise…[and the] mighty” that God will call later (I Cor. 1:26-29).

cc: menxer

michaelwestern:
Wow! So why then do we have to preach to people if those that are destined to be saved will be saved irrespective of our preaching to them?

This is a very dangerous doctrine and surprisingly am hearing it for the first time.

An2elect2:
You are welcome 5Solas! Thank you, I'll be posting chapter 1 here very soon and like you said we post our comments, questions accordingly.

An2elect2:
Good morning everyone This is a discussion thread about historical Christianity and salient church doctrines. It's important to every diligent student of the Bible to know what the Bible holds as truth, what the early churches believed and what the best and wisest men in history preached. And how passionate they were about what they preached. Guess? every wise person would consider why they held on to those truths even in the face of great opposition. Surely there has to be something in it!

Brother 5Solas and any other person with sound contributions and/or questions are officially welcome.

We would commence with a book by Loraine Boettner
THE REFORMED DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION You can download the PDF and it's corresponding audio files ( all on Google)

freeradical:
So God is now partial by preselecting us even before the beginning for salvation and leaving the rest of humanity doomed for destruction.

See why I say you guys should look up to the teaching body of the Church to guide your interpretation of sacred Scripture. God's omniscient nature is the reason behind those passages you guys are misconstruing for predestination. When we say God is omniscient it's because he exists outside time. So he knows the end even from the beginning. In the end he has seen it all play out and this inspired the writings we hold sacred as scripture.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Everything that is written exists in time. So God knows about it. This doesn't mean he directly interferes with our choices. He respects them so much that he made us masters of our own destinies. If u deceive yourself that because u think u were chosen and you fail to live justly u will suffer the loss of your soul.

So let's be Wise and pray to God for the strength to follow him all the way to the end, trusting not in our own righteousness but in his bountiful, merciful and awesome saving power.

God bless you all

ichuka:
Same here Bro.5solas
Maybe it's time to Refresh some of your old thread for new believers .

ichuka:
John17:12
While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Julivas:
Assuming all if them grabbed the opportunity, they will all also enjoy the incentive.

Julivas:
Assuming all if them grabbed the opportunity, they will all also enjoy the incentive.

Romans 8
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

CandidSeeker:
He gave you a Spirit-led analogy, and you will do yourself a lot of good, if you can take your time to study The Gospels all over again, paying fresh attention to The Words of Jesus Christ.

Choice has a role to play in the matter.

-Peace.

Julivas:
Happy Sunday

Look at it this way:

A wealthy individual in a certain community went into an agreement with an institution of vocational learning to sponsor all the youths in that community to learn a trade.

An announcement was made regarding this in the community so that all will be aware and take action.

At the end of registration period, only 60% of the youth population showed interest.

Now the question is, has the wealthy man not paid for the entire population of the youth?

Yes, he has paid for all.

What made the remaining 40% not to register in the institute?

Self will.