₦airaland Forum

Good! We need more of such cheering news.

An2elect2:
Lol. He forgot that God is the author and finisher of our faith.

Vooks needs thorough study of the scriptures. I pray God grant him sight.

Amen. He can learn a lot from Ayoku777.

First and foremost I have dropped all my weapons. If we agree on faith and works and their roles in the life of the believer, I think we do, then there is no need for a fight.

ayoku777:
Oh please, come on, enough with the "what ifs" and "antinomian checks". Someone that is not grafted into Christ cannot be warned of being cut off.

Alright. I discovered right early a pattern from the Bible, the epistles in particular, firstly a teaching on how we get saved, with an admonition that it is not of our works (it is not deserved!) and secondly an exhortation on how to conduct ourselves now that we are saved. Granted that some believers are carnal like the man that took his father's wife, how do you admonish such? Persuaded that he was a believer but seeing him wallow in sin? This was Paul's dilemma. He found a skillful way out.

If Paul was talking to pretentious unbelievers; he would warn them to check themselves if they were truly grafted into Christ, if they truly believe in Him. He would not warn them of being cut off. You can't cut off what was never grafted; and unbelievers were never grafted.

Alright. I think he was talking to believers, I have affirmed that much before. However, what if the carnality of a few needed addressing, how would he have done it. persuaded as he was that they had all believed and were saved?

Don't insult my intelligence, this is not rocket science. Pretentious, self-deluding unbelievers are not standing by faith and were never grafted into Christ; so the warning of being cut off does not and cannot apply to them.

The warning of being cut off can only apply to those who are really grafted into Christ -which can only refer to real believers.

Unbelievers cannot be cut off from Christ because they were never grafted into Him. Paul knows this, the scripture knows this, and the Holy Spirit that inspired both Paul and the scripture knows it. So the warning applies to only believers.

Believers are the only ones grafted into the Christ, so the warning of being cut off can apply only to them.

No need for "what ifs" or "antinomian checks" or "pelagian checks" to understand this simple truth. You can't warn those who were never grafted about being cut off. Only believers can be cut off, because only believers are ever grafted.

What then happens to our belief that salvation is not deserved?

You obviously don't know me. So don't even presume you do.

I don't believe and I've never preached that salvation can be lost by works. You can't lose your salvation to fornication or stealing or lies or to any such thing. Salvation can only be lost through unbelief; by departing from the faith and reverting into unbelief.

The fornicator brother in 1Cor 5, sleeping with his stepmom; Paul said they should deliver him into the hands of satan, for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit might be saved.

You can't deliver someone into the hands of satan if he is already in his hands. Meaning that the unrepentant fornicator brother with all his in.cest is still in the hands of Christ.

And infact it is his body that is being delivered into the hands of satan for buffeting and destruction if he doesn't repent. His soul and spirit still remains in the hands of Christ.

This proves that salvation is not lost by sin or by carnality. It is lost only by unbelief, by departing from the faith in Christ.

A carnal christian is called a "babe in Christ", meaning he is still "in Christ". So carnality does not cost believers their salvation; even though it will cost them reward and greatness. Every sin is unto spiritual demotion but only unbelief is unto spiritual death.

Only believers who depart from the faith lose their salvation and are cut off from Christ, not those who commit sins or are carnal. So no one is preaching works here.

How do we receive God's goodness? By putting our faith in Christ. And how do we continue in God's goodness? By keeping the faith by which we received His goodness; by not departing from faith in Christ and reverting into unbelief.

To continue in God's goodness is to keep the faith in Christ by which you received the goodness. It is not by doing good works. Also, to not continue in God's goodness, is not by doing evil works; it is by not keeping the faith, it is by departing from the faith. And believers who don't keep the faith but revert into unbelief will be cut off.

No one is saying salvation is gained or lost by works. Salvation is received through faith and only lost by departing from the faith. And a believer can depart from the faith according to the Holy Spirit.



How is it any of my business to know who is in the faith and who is not in the faith? Are my the Holy Spirit? My judgment doesn't count, because I don't know men's heart.

But the Holy Spirit who knows men's heart, says some people in the faith will depart from the faith in the last days.

That's it! I'm using what the Holy Spirit said to establish doctrine. He didn't say some believers will become fornicators and thiefs. No! He said some believers will become unbelievers.

He said some people who believe in Christ will depart from the faith and revert into unbelief.

The Spirit wasn't talking about evil works here; He wasn't talking about a believer becoming a carnal christian. He was talking about a believer becoming an unbeliever. About someone in the faith reverting into unbelief in Christ.

No one is preaching that salvation is gained or lost by any good works or evil works respectively. But that salvation is received by faith in Christ, and lost by departure from faith in Christ.

And not only can that happen; the Holy Spirit said it will happen!

Shalom!

Thanks for your clarification on your stand concerning works, we completely agree. However,giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils is a sin. I fail to see any unbelief that is not rooted in sin.

1 Tim. 4:1

¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Note also as An2elect2 just pointed out, that God Himself is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

ayoku777:
Oh please, come on, enough with the "what ifs" and "antinomian checks". Someone that is not grafted into Christ cannot be warned of being cut off.

If Paul was talking to pretentious unbelievers; he would warn them to check themselves if they were truly grafted into Christ, if they truly believe in Him. He would not warn them of being cut off. You can't cut off what was never grafted; and unbelievers were never grafted.

Don't insult my intelligence, this is not rocket science. Pretentious, self-deluding unbelievers are not standing by faith and were never grafted into Christ; so the warning of being cut off does not and cannot apply to them.

The warning of being cut off can only apply to those who are really grafted into Christ -which can only refer to real believers.

Unbelievers cannot be cut off from Christ because they were never grafted into Him. Paul knows this, the scripture knows this, and the Holy Spirit that inspired both Paul and the scripture knows it. So the warning applies to only believers.

Believers are the only ones grafted into the Christ, so the warning of being cut off can apply only to them.

No need for "what ifs" or "antinomian checks" or "pelagian checks" to understand this simple truth. You can't warn those who were never grafted about being cut off. Only believers can be cut off, because only believers are ever grafted.



You obviously don't know me. So don't even presume you do.

I don't believe and I've never preached that salvation can be lost by works. You can't lose your salvation to fornication or stealing or lies or to any such thing. Salvation can only be lost through unbelief; by departing from the faith and reverting into unbelief.

The fornicator brother in 1Cor 5, sleeping with his stepmom; Paul said they should deliver him into the hands of satan, for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit might be saved.

You can't deliver someone into the hands of satan if he is already in his hands. Meaning that the unrepentant fornicator brother with all his in.cest is still in the hands of Christ.

And infact it is his body that is being delivered into the hands of satan for buffeting and destruction if he doesn't repent. His soul and spirit still remains in the hands of Christ.

This proves that salvation is not lost by sin or by carnality. It is lost only by unbelief, by departing from the faith in Christ.

A carnal christian is called a "babe in Christ", meaning he is still "in Christ". So carnality does not cost believers their salvation; even though it will cost them reward and greatness. Every sin is unto spiritual demotion but only unbelief is unto spiritual death.

Only believers who depart from the faith lose their salvation and are cut off from Christ, not those who commit sins or are carnal. So no one is preaching works here.

How do we receive God's goodness? By putting our faith in Christ. And how do we continue in God's goodness? By keeping the faith by which we received His goodness; by not departing from faith in Christ and reverting into unbelief.

To continue in God's goodness is to keep the faith in Christ by which you received the goodness. It is not by doing good works. Also, to not continue in God's goodness, is not by doing evil works; it is by not keeping the faith, it is by departing from the faith. And believers who don't keep the faith but revert into unbelief will be cut off.

No one is saying salvation is gained or lost by works. Salvation is received through faith and only lost by departing from the faith. And a believer can depart from the faith according to the Holy Spirit.



How is it any of my business to know who is in the faith and who is not in the faith? Are my the Holy Spirit? My judgment doesn't count, because I don't know men's heart.

But the Holy Spirit who knows men's heart, says some people in the faith will depart from the faith in the last days.

That's it! I'm using what the Holy Spirit said to establish doctrine. He didn't say some believers will become fornicators and thiefs. No! He said some believers will become unbelievers.

He said some people who believe in Christ will depart from the faith and revert into unbelief.

The Spirit wasn't talking about evil works here; He wasn't talking about a believer becoming a carnal christian. He was talking about a believer becoming an unbeliever. About someone in the faith reverting into unbelief in Christ.

No one is preaching that salvation is gained or lost by any good works or evil works respectively. But that salvation is received by faith in Christ, and lost by departure from faith in Christ.

And not only can that happen; the Holy Spirit said it will happen!

Shalom!

The above is a nice submission and I have liked and shared it. However, I still disagree about the unbelief/ faith bit. I will comment on it later.


Just wondering what Vooks thinks. He has been on about man doing his bit.

vooks:
God's sovereignty allows for human will.

Spoken as if it was in contention!

God's gift to mankind is Calvary. If you reject that, you are damned.

Is this in contention?

God's will is not cast in steel is the point

Man's will does not overrule God's.
The tail does not wag the dog, the dog wags its tail! Always!

ayoku777:
Nice try but you missed it again.

The people Paul warned about being cut off if they did not continue in God's goodness are people already standing by faith. These are not people deluding themselves to be believers. These are believers!

He was addressing believers. What you don't know and grant is what I am trying to bring to your understanding. He knew they were saved! He had laboured all through the epistle to tell them so. He knew that with their knew nature they would not work after the flesh but after the Spirit. But what if they was a person, just one, that wasn't in faith? Such a one not having the Spirit could live after the flesh and still feel he was saved. The verse is for such a one. And for your information wherever you see such admonition, that is the purpose. You may call such verses Antinomian checks. In most of the epistles you will always see Pelagian checks and Antinomian checks. The balanced believer is mindful of both. The Pelagian checks are more and tell us not to put our hopes on going to Heaven on ourselves, sadly, you don't even see them.

Read it again;

Romans 11v20 -20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

An unbelieving church-goer who is deluding himself to be saved; is he standing by faith? Has he been engrafted into Christ? And does he have the life of the vine in him? Absolutely not! He is not standing by faith, he is not engrafted into Christ; and he does not have the life of the vine.

Unbelievers and pretenders are not standing by faith. Someone not grafted into Christ cannot be warned of being cut off. The people Paul warned about being cut off, are believers in Christ, who are engrafted into Christ and are standing by faith.

See the verses in full;

Romans 11v20 -Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

v21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

v22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Who are the "thee" that God shall not spare, and the "thou" that shall also be cut off, if they don't continue in God's goodness by keeping the faith? It is clearly those "thou" that are "standing by faith". The warning was obviously addressed to believers.

And why would a believer be warned about being cut off from Christ as an unbeliever?

It is because a believer can depart from the faith and revert into unbelief. Simple!

I don't have to read it again! He was speaking to believers in the main! But perchance there was an unbeliever present, this was applicable to him! And for what reason would they be cut off? If they did not continue in His (God's) goodness! What did that mean? If they did not continue in those things which accompany salvation. If they did not do good works!

Do you see were we are at now?

What you and your ilks have been saying is that salvation can be lost by non-performance of good works. In short, that good works saves.

And also this verse that you've all being tip-toeing around, trying to give a meaning other than the obvious; also proves that a believer can revert into unbelief.

1Tim 4v1 -Now [b] the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

These people that the Holy Spirit told Paul would depart from the faith are not unbelievers deluding themselves. These are believers!

I can't depart from America, because I was never in America. I can only depart from where I was or had been.

Only someone in the faith can depart from the faith. Not someone pretending to be a believer or pretending to be in the faith.

There are athiests that go to church, sing, dance and maybe even take communion. If he later stops going to church, did he depart from the faith? NO!

He didn't depart from the faith because he wasn't in the faith. He departed from church not from faith in Christ.

There are many muslims that attend Reinhard Bonnke's crusade. They don't believe in Jesus as the Messiah and the Son of God. They just came because they heard miracles are happening.

If that muslim leaves, did he depart from the faith? NO again! He was never in the faith.

You can't depart from the faith unless you were in the faith. And you can't depart from the faith and still remain in the faith.

Only someone who once truly had faith in Christ and no longer does can be said to have departed from the faith.

So clearly the people Paul warned about being cut off, and the ones the Holy Spirit said would depart from the faith; are believers in Christ who will not keep the faith. These are not unbelievers who were never in the faith or standing by faith, but just deluding themselves. These are believers in Christ.

A believer can depart from the faith! And the Holy Spirit said some will depart from the faith!

Shalom!

The reason I have given above is sufficient for this also, but to add to it, your ilks would not even distinguish if the muslim was in church or in faith, all you will be quick to say is that he has lost his salvation. Is they a departure from the faith that does not involve evil works? Once again I tell you that your striving is about works. You are advocating good works and continuance in good works for salvation. It is that simple.

@Ayoku777
Concerning election and the elects, also consider the passage below:
John 10

1 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
19 ¶ There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?
22 ¶ And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

@Ayoku777
Concerning election and the elects, consider the passage below:
John 17

1 ¶ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 ¶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 ¶ And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 ¶ Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 ¶ Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

vooks:
Let me ignore the junk you just posted and focus on this.

It shows you just can't see.

If you can't change God's will, then can we say that God willed for Satan to rebel?
And did God also will that some will perish?

Look at this man o
So you think you can change His will?

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1. So what happens to those who despite God not willing that they should perish, end up in hell?

2. Go and study the folly of determinism before making ignorant posts

1. Please tell us , since even with your Arminian viewpoint , some still perish.

2. Please enlighten us.

An2elect2:
Smhead. How can arminians without any fear of God twist scriptures to say something it never said? How do you know, a cunning teacher? He maliciously dodges all the passages that talk about a thing clearly and heed only to scriptures that can be ambiguous if not properly interpreted with others, manipulates it and gives it a meaning that fits what he thinks is right.

Election can also mean choice. Who chooses according to grace? Is it the sinner that elects himself or God? The arminians, who constitute the majority will have us belief man is the elector of himself and he does this by faith in the word of God. LOL. What Nonsense teaching is this when the bible is very clear that God elects according to His will. And this he had done from the foundation of the world. Why are some people so treacherous when it comes to sound doctrines. God is wiser.

Ephesians 1:4
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love.

When do people make choices. Is it not when they have more than one to choose from? Before the world began, God already chose people who will be holy and blameless in Him. Where we existing (except in the mind of God) when God chose? In time,will our supposed choices cancel God's own or confirm it?

2 Timothy 1:9
Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not
because of our works but because of his own purpose
and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the
ages began,

If everything God is doing is for His own purpose and grace, how will you deny Him the election of His own people?


Ephesians 1:4-6
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Arminians say, election is by grace according to our faith. The scripture says it is by grace according to the purpose of God's will. Who is lying?

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you,
brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Romans 9:15-18
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I
have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Yet again, God's will!

Whose will is it that a dead sinner be awakened. Arminians scream man's will but the bible makes it known that it is God's.

Ephesians 2:1-10
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— ...



Paul was even clear

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Election precedes salvation


John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Why did He have to say that? men are always tempted to think their choices matter here! no it doesn't.

Mark 13:20
And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human
being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect,
whom he chose, he shortened the days.


Remember, God does not want any of His elect to perish! And they would not perish!


Bad news for arminians, you cant change God's will.

Job 23:13
But he is unchangeable, and who can turn him back? What he desires, that he does.

Thanks so much for this excellent submission.

ayoku777:
I was just browsing the scriptures not long ago. See the verse I stumbled upon; and I know it was the Holy Spirit that led me to it, because it is relevant to what we've been saying.

2Peter 1v10 -Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

The word translated "sure" there is the greek "bebaios" and it means "stedfast, firm, unmovable".

Question is, if our calling and election is unmovable, would there be any need to tell believers to "give diligence" to making their election sure (unmovable)?

If something cannot move, do you need to make it unmovable?

To properly understand this verse you have to consider it with other verses of the Bible and also ask yourself some questions. Is the verse saying we do something to get us elected or keep us elected? The obvious answer is , no. The verse is an exhortation for believers to continue to live right. Right living is the mark of a believer , of one who is saved, who is elect. If after your believing you see the character traits of a believer, then you are a believer and an elect. This is what the verse is saying. So that if an unbeliever were in their midst deluding himself that he was saved, he had a way to check to see if he really was . It is for the same reason Paul said to examine oneself to see if one was truly in the faith. So we see that even a letter addressed to believers also tries to address the unbeliever that might be present with them.
When we give a message in church we also have a word for the unbeliever, sometimes indirectly .

The Holy Spirit through the scriptures will not warn people to make something that cannot move unmovable. It is only something that can move you give diligence to making sure it doesn't move.

Clearly, its one thing to be elected and its another thing to stay elected. To stay elected, you need to keep the faith by which you accepted the calling and the election.

This scripture flushes down the drain the doctrine that it is impossible for the elect to be lost.

That one is elected is something one needs to be diligent to keep that way. Because the election is not unmovable (sure). We wouldn't need to make our election sure, if it is sure.

Shalom!

Point already addressed.

ayoku777:
The elect are those who have put their faith in Christ. And the election is the state of being an elect. The elect are those standing by faith in Christ; the same group of people Paul warned would be cut off if they do not continue in God's goodness.

Those are the the elect and election.

The elects are those who were chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world. Yes, even before the fall, they are those whom God chose to save. Scriptures regarding them are endless. That is why Christ would call such, '' my sheep''.

ayoku777:
The elect are those who have put their faith in Christ. And the election is the state of being an elect. The elect are those standing by faith in Christ; the same group of people Paul warned would be cut off if they do not continue in God's goodness.

Those are the the elect and election.

Please give the scriptures you have in mind concerning this.

ayoku777:
I was just browsing the scriptures not long ago. See the verse I stumbled upon; and I know it was the Holy Spirit that led me to it, because it is relevant to what we've been saying.

2Peter 1v10 -Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

The word translated "sure" there is the greek "bebaios" and it means "stedfast, firm, unmovable".

Question is, if our calling and election is unmovable, would there be any need to tell believers to "give diligence" to making their election sure (unmovable)?

If something cannot move, do you need to make it unmovable?

The Holy Spirit through the scriptures will not warn people to make something that cannot move unmovable. It is only something that can move you give diligence to making sure it doesn't move.

Clearly, its one thing to be elected, its another thing to stay elected. To stay elected, you need to keep the faith by which you accepted the calling and the election.

This scripture flushes down the drain the doctrine that it is impossible for the elect to be lost.

That one is elected is something one needs to give diligence to keeping that way. Because the election is not unmovable (sure). We wouldn't need to make it sure if it is.

Shalom!

Your post clearly shows you have a false notion on election.
Who are the elects and what is election?
Start from there before telling us election is not sure.

ABDULADINO:
If he is in the truth in the first instance, he wouldn't have wandered from the truth.

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:19)

Indeed, that's what John is saying!

Scholar8200:
The problem with these calvinists and neo-calvinists is that they indirectly tell us all the time Jesus and His Apostles told us to watch, they were pulling an April fool stunt! They hastily assume we mean we are saved by works!!! We are saved by faith but we are not kept against our will; we choose if we'll hold fast the faith to the end or not!

The main problem for Arminian proponents, is a strong Catholic background , which they are unable to shake off.

SAMBARRY:
I really pity her though. She doesn't even look like a billionaires wife or a millionaire herself in that picture. Smh


what a marriage.

OLAADEGBU:
Who say African man no get sense?

ichuka:
The problem is some people cant differentiate between a Gift and a Reward,between Enternal Life and The Kingdom of God.
nice one @Jaggaz and An2elect2.
5solas...longtime how body?

True talk.
I am fine thanks, and you?

Scholar8200:
The problem with these calvinists and neo-calvinists is that they indirectly tell us all the time Jesus and His Apostles told us to watch, they were pulling an April fool stunt! They hastily assume we mean we are saved by works!!! We are saved by faith but we are not kept against our will; we choose if we'll hold fast the faith to the end or not!

One of the problems with Arminians is their penchant for jumping to accelerated conclusions. For example, Christ says:
Mathew 4

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

and they run away teaching that perfection is attainable in this life! Worse still they run away teaching that we will not be saved if we are not perfect! The worst is that they run away thinking they are perfect! It is the only way to convince themselves they are saved.And they justify their understanding of the verse by stating, ''He wouldn't have asked us to be perfect, if it wasn't possible''.
To show how false this kind of reasoning can be , let us consider Christ's encounter with the Samaritan woman in John 4:1-42. In verse 16, Jesus said to her,

16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.

. How would the Arminian had interpreted this verse if the Bible ended this encounter with this question? You guessed right, "It meant she had an husband or why else would Christ ask her to call her husband?"



What if there were other passages in scripture that indicated she wasn't married and you draw their attention to them? The Arminian would retort, '' you must convince me she is not married with this passage.''


Sadly, this is what plays out again and again when you attempt to show the Arminians their errors.

ayoku777:
What does it mean for someones name to be written in the book of life? It means to have eternal life or be ordained unto eternal life.

Sadly, you don't understand what it means to be ordained unto eternal life.

ABDULADINO:
No need for greek and semantics. Can the elect's faith be overthrown? Yes from 1 Tim4. U guys quoted. Can the elect lose their salvation?Emphatically NO. Can any elect be in hell?Emphatically NO. Two diff things. The word "elect" means that God chose a person to eternal life before the world began.( 1 peter 1:2).So God knows the end from the beginning.

Hmm. Blessed are your eyes!

ABDULADINO:
You used the word precious faith which is not instant but progessive. Read 1 peter.
Scripture is clear for christians to see.Paul warned timothy to ministerial faithfulness,lest he cost his hearers the truth and rigtheous living. It all boils down to the five fold (Eph 4:11-14).

Good observation. To them context does not matter, faith equals faith whenever and wherever it is used.

vooks:
Stop misusing jargon you barely understand.
If God picks some to eternal life, it also means he chose the rest to eternal damnation.

Alright! So that's why you won't admit predestination. It is common with Arminians. No amount of blackmail will keep us from admitting and proclaiming it.

God refused to save them yet they are incapable of saving themselves. Not even Jesus dying 1000 times could save them!

No one is capable of saving themselves. The beauty of the gospel is that God decided to save some, even though He was under no obligation to save any.

God does not predetermine who gets saved,

True, if you get saved, you saved yourself!

he predetermines the character of the saved

And yet for all that, some still get lost.

And why only the character of the saved?


And sure enough, here, you think Him just!

ayoku777:
So you want the Spirit to say, "Some shall depart from the faith and lose their salvation" for you to know such christians definitly lost their salvation?

Of course! Because He had said before that:
Matthew 24

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. ...
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So you will do well to explain who His elects are, why those terrible days will be shortened for their sakes,why they cannot be deceived and why the angels will gather them together. Let's see if it all adds up to ,''so that they can lose their salvation!"

Are we not saved by grace through faith? If we depart from the faith through which we are saved, do we still stay saved? Ofcourse not!

Scripture says we are made overcomers by faith.

1John 5v4 -...and this the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

And we end as overcomers by keeping the faith unto the end.

The Holy Spirit told Paul that some christians will not keep the faith unto the end; they will depart from the faith.

1Timothy 4v1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times SOME SHALL DEPART FROM THE FAITH, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

Now, christians that the Holy Spirit said will depart from the faith will not end as overcomers.

And what will happen to christians who depart from the faith and don't end as overcomers?

According to Jesus, christians who depart from the faith and don't end as overcomers will have their names blotted out of the book of life;

Revelation 3v5 -He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in whote raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels.

And they will be hurt of the second death (the lake of fire);

Revelation 2v11 -...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

So according to the Holy Spirit; a christian can depart from the faith. And according to Jesus such a christian will end up in the lake of fire just like every other unbeliever.

Revelation 20v15 -And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So yes, salvation can be lost. Once a believer is not automatic always a believer. And once an overcomer is not automatic always an overcomer.

Faith can be departed from. And salvation will be lost by those who depart from the faith.

Shalom

Blah blah blah.

Scholar8200:
Are you deliberately misunderstanding my posts? Quote where I said Ephesians was written to Adam!

You implied that when you said:

Scholar8200:
The highlighted were God's original plan for Adam and his before the fall! These were no knee jerk reactions of an angry God whose creatures were enticed. That Adam fell did not mean God's plan for man had been permanently truncated! The only means this would have been achieved is if satan had succeeded in making them take of the Tree of Life then, that original plan would have been forever forfeited. The delay of the state in which Adam was to live forever shows that God still had plans for him and that is one of the reasons why the severe but beneficial action of chasing him out of the garden had to be taken Genesis 3:22.

the highlighted you referred to was Eph. 1:3,4.
I eagerly await your explanation how this can be.

Scholar8200:
What end? I hope you are not saying Adam was going to die even if he did not fall because Bible clearly states that death came through sin! And I doubt He that is of purer eyes than to behold sin will enlist its services because He wants an end!!!

Have you ever seen the tail of a dog wagging the dog?

The highlighted shows God's will was established from the beginning and has not changed; rather inspite of the fall, God's Eternal purpose still stands! The only means it will have been permanently shelved was if Adam had taken of the Tree of Life and lived forever in that fallen state and God moved to avert this!

God's eternal purpose was purposed in Christ, before the fall.

Acts 4
24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

An end meaning the adoption of man that He had made but that was not to be without the free moral agency of the man hence the momentary test of the Garden!
Prove the highlighted from scripture! I don't doubt the Omni-science of God but I would not make extrapolations and inferences that are not Scriptural.

You have the proof above , if you need further proof, I will oblige you.

Those who believe enter into that purpose provided they remain and increase therein while those who do not believe are denied access. And is the revelation of the Son only meant for some lucky, pre-selected few? Is it not written that it is God's will that all men be saved? Or are you saying that God wills all men to be saved and at the same time has predestinated (chosen beforehand) those that will be saved?! Is it then sincere to say 'whosoever will' when He has already selected those He will receive?

We heard similar grumblings in Romans 9, it is not new.

Scholar8200:
This question should be directed to you. All that we become joint-heirs for after we believed, were they part of God's purpose before the fall or were new plans after the fall?

I have plainly told you before that God"s eternal purpose from the beginning comprehended the fall of Man. Why troublest thou me any further?
Accordingly all that took place thereafter were no afterthoughts.

vooks:
1 Timothy 4:1 speaks of departing from faith. That sounds like leaving faith behind you. You would do well to address this instead of dozens of irrelevant scriptures sir.

What is DEPART FROM FAITH?


PS: am no Armian

We do not read of believers losing their salvation in that verse. It is your wrong conclusion despite innumerable verses to the contrary. Please give us the methodology of salvation lose. We are entitled to that. The number of sins we ought to have committed , their severity, how we can be saved again, If Christ gets to die again, e.t.c

vooks:
Many believers who live like Satan because they imagine God is helpless against them seeing He saved them will be horrified to end up in hell

5solas:
Believers who live like Satan! They don't exist!

vooks:
You are right; they fall from Grace and perish. One can't fall from something they never had

5solas:
Gal. 3:11

Gal.5 4

Marry the two verses, the answer will pop out.

vooks:
You can do more intelligent rebuttals than parables

1 Timothy 4:1 (KJV)
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

Walk me through your u dear standing of DEPART FROM FAITH, and its consequences which were dire enough to have the Spirit EXPRESSLY speaking about them

A common practice among those who believe that salvation can be lost (Arminians) is to quote verses they don't even understand, that they have not carefully examined contextually. I will pick you up on one - Galatians 5:4.
For years I had thought (as I think most people still do) that it taught that a believer could fall from grace. Interestingly, I only gained the right understanding of it years after I became a Calvinist (believing salvation cannot be lost). The whole point of Paul in this book is that justification (salvation) does not come from keeping of the law and this we get from 2:16 and 3:11.

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Having stressed throughout this book that salvation does not come from the law , but rather the keeping of the law for salvation provokes God, he uses a figure of speech an [url]hyperbole[/url] which has continued to trip many to this day, all because they fail to read his words in context.
He says: 5:4

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

His meaning is simple, '' rather than your adherence to the law giving you grace, it takes grace from you-you are fallen from grace(you were never in grace!)
And looking at this verse objectively, we understand who ''falls from grace ''. Not a believer who falls into sin as so many proclaim, but that person who keeps the law in order to get salvation. How ironical!
Such a one Paul regards as foolish 3:1. Notice in 5:4 he says whosoever is justified by the law, yet he had taught that no one is justified (saved) by the law. And we know he is not contradicting himself, call it an [url]oxymoron[/url], if you will.

vooks:
Listen buddy.
NOTHING external can pluck them from His side but they can walk away from all that. God can't keep you on His side against your will
The prodigal son, only he could opt out. His wealth and position was guaranteed. Had he perished out there,he'd have died like a commoner.

Simply say, God does in fact, not save.

An2elect2:
anti-aircraft gun I think your approach to this matter is better. More grace to you !

Yours is good too. It is actually better with some persons.
As the Spirit leads.

And Amen to all the truth you have stated on this thread. Let everyman be a liar and God be true

Amen!!!!!!!

vooks:
You are right; they fall from Grace and perish. One can't fall from something they never had

Gal. 3:11

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal.5 4

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Marry the two verses, the answer will pop out.