Xmuslim:


It's easy to understand though. Consider a movie you have watched. If watching it second time, won't you know what will happen before it happens? Do you force it to happen. Let me know what you think?

Even Einstein made that error. He said he does not believe in a god that plays dice with the universe..
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If everything was a movie, then God is actually playing dice with the universe. Infact, your eternal abode (heaven or hell) has been determined before you were born. That means you are actually a robot, a programmed actor, made to play a role in a movie and then punished because he played the role just as he was instructed..
This unscriptural and illogical reasoning has reinforced the stance for atheism and agnosticism.

Xmuslim:
is there anything that hasn't happened that God knows exactly how it will happen

Let us do a bit of practical...
Is there someone in the room with you?

Blabbermouth:

Even Einstein made that error. He said he does not believe in a god that plays dice with the universe..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If everything was a movie, then God is actually playing dice with the universe. Infact, your eternal abode (heaven or hell) has been determined before you were born. That means you are actually a robot, a programmed actor, made to play a role in a movie and then punished because he played the role just as he was instructed..
This unscriptural and illogical reasoning has reinforced the stance for atheism and agnosticism.

You are right to some extent and this is one of the weakness of Islam.

But what do you think of their excuse? That God didn't force them to do those things, he only knew those things in advance. They (Muslims) claim that God gave them freewill and will punish humans based on the freewil.

No bias please.

Blabbermouth:

Let us do a bit of practical...
Is there someone in the room with you?

no.

OK let me give you example. Does God know what will happen on the judgement day?(as claimed by the believers).

Does God know if jesus will be killed on his second coming?

you claimed God knows what we think. Does he know if we will eventually act on those things. I may think I will eat breakfast tommorow, but may oversleep and skip it

Xmuslim:


You are right to some extent and this is one of the weakness of Islam.

But what do you think of their excuse? That God didn't force them to do those things, he only knew those things in advance. They (Muslims) claim that God gave them freewill and will punish humans based on the freewil.

No bias please.

If you watch vampire movies (or legend of the seeker), you will realize that it is the same as "compelling"...
Since he knew them, freewill/no freewill they are compelled to play along.
If such is the case, then there is no need for judgement. Only beings that have freewill are judged, playing a role assigned by a deity is nothing close to free will.

What is the interval between the time of action and when God knows about such action.

Does God only know stuffs after they had already happened successfully? Or he knows them few minutes or seconds before the event

Blabbermouth:

If you watch vampire movies (or legend of the seeker), you will realize that it is the same as "compelling"...
Since he knew them, freewill/no freewill they are compelled to play along.
If such is the case, then there is no need for judgement. Only beings that have freewill are judged, playing a role assigned by a deity is nothing close to free will.

on. Let's skip this. Answer my other questions.

Although I personally think it does not take free will away completely though.

There are other stuffs in Islam that takes freewill away. Such as the verse that says, God Misled whom he will. etc

Xmuslim:
you claimed God knows what we think. Does he know if we will eventually act on those things. I may think I will eat breakfast tommorow, but may oversleep and skip it

In Torah (i meant old testament), Satan only conceived the plan and God judged him straight up!
God himself said he is more concerned about the heart than the action.
Jesus buttressed it when he said "the moment you lust in your heart, you have already fornicated"...

Xmuslim:
no.

OK let me give you example. Does God know what will happen on the judgement day?(as claimed by the believers).

Does God know if jesus will be killed on his second coming?

There is a very important thing about God that I would have loved to explain with a practical... It would have answered many of your other questions.

Blabbermouth:

In Torah (i meant old testament), Satan only conceived the plan and God judged him straight up!
God himself said he is more concerned about the heart than the action.
Jesus buttressed it when he said "the moment you lust in your heart, you have already fornicated"...

OK.

But God doesn't know if such action will eventually take place

Blabbermouth:

There is a very important thing about God that I would have loved to explain with a practical... It would have answered many of your other questions.

you may go ahead and explain. We are learning

Xmuslim:
What is the interval between the time of action and when God knows about such action.

Does God only know stuffs after they had already happened successfully? Or he knows them few minutes or seconds before the event

Smiles... You know the answer to this yourself.

Xmuslim:
you may go ahead and explain. We are learning

Do this simple practical...
Look at the time now (it's about 5:10pm), now tell someone in the room that the following would have happened about 5:12pm
1. Your phone will be switched off
2. You will be in the other room
3. You won't be putting on any shirt

Tell the person to check the time and confirm that everything happened two minute later just as you said two minute ago.

(While the person is doing the countdown, switch off your phone, off your shirt and move to another room)
So, by 5:12pm, everything should be just as you said 2 minutes ago.

What did you just do?
Is that you knowing the future?
Is that you reading the future script?

Blabbermouth:

Smiles... You know the answer to this yourself.

I don't even know if there is an entity called God. I only use the term based on people's definition. For instance Muslim God's attributes is different from yours.

So, I don't know answer to that question. All I have heard from you is that God does not know the future

Xmuslim:


I don't even know if there is an entity called God. I only use the term based on people's definition. For instance Muslim God's attributes is different from yours.

So, I don't know answer to that question. All I have heard from you is that God does not know the future

Alright.
Have you considered that practical experiment?

Blabbermouth:

Alright, let's not go round with words. There is nothing like "knowing what will happen", because " what will happen" has not happened.
Are we clear?

Blabbermouth:
etrange, perhaps we should borrow a leaf from Logic and premises.

1. God knows all things
2. "Nonexistent things" do not count as "all things"
3. God does not know "nonexistent things" because they do not exist
4. Future is non existent
5. God does not know the future

Yes sir, we are. You are saying that because what will happen has not happened, the supreme being, as understood by man, cannot know or tell it (just like we humans can't). And the conclusion is that he does not know the future (as your number 5 indicates). That is fine. Like I said, for whatever reason, acknowledging he doesn't know the what will happen seems more practical and nearer to reality (as against an image of him most people would like to paint).

Now working on the clear premise of the supreme being, as understood by man, not knowing what will happen, can we use this as a seed to clarify some other areas? Let's take a step further to reconcile this bit of knowledge with the idea that only his will will come to pass. Do you agree with that? With what level of certainty can we say only his will will happen seeing that he, himself, doesn't also know what will happen? And does it mean that it is his will that some men (if not all) will perish?

Thanks for your time.

etrange:




Yes sir, we are. You are saying that because what will happen has not happened, the supreme being, as understood by man, cannot know or tell it (just like we humans can't). And the conclusion is that he does not know the future (as your number 5 indicates). That is fine. Like I said, for whatever reason, acknowledging he doesn't know the what will happen seems more practical and nearer to reality (as against an image of him most people would like to paint).

Now working on the clear premise of the supreme being, as understood by man, not knowing what will happen, can we use this as a seed to clarify some other areas? Let's take a step further to reconcile this bit of knowledge with the idea that only his will will come to pass. Do you agree with that? With what level of certainty can we say only his will will happen seeing that he, himself, doesn't also know what will happen? And does it mean that it is his will that some men (if not all) will perish?

Thanks for your time.

So that we don't end up getting confused, let us establish something very important about this supreme being.
We will do that with a very simple practical...

Blabbermouth:

Do this simple practical...
Look at the time now (it's about 8:10pm), now tell someone in the room that the following would have happened about 8:12pm
1. Your phone will be switched off
2. You will be in the other room
3. You won't be putting on any shirt

Tell the person to check the time and confirm that everything happened two minute later just as you said two minute ago.

(While the person is doing the countdown, switch off your phone, off your shirt and move to another room)
So, by 8:12pm, everything should be just as you said 2 minutes ago.

What did you just do?
Is that you knowing the future?
Is that you reading the future script?

etrange, this is the practical.

Blabbermouth:

etrange, this is the practical.

Thank you for this scenario. It actually sheds more light on my question above. (I assume this scenario does not make any distinction between man and the supreme being cause that would only make it useless).

I response, I would say I orchestrated the series of events that would go on to constitute the future. I understand that bit. But even in the scenario above, there was a possibility of my phone button malfunctioning and I not being able to eventually put it. This implies that while I might have willed for all these to happen, anything could really be an impedance, anything I didn't forsee because I can't tell the "non existen" future.

Having heard my response, what's your take on my questions here?

etrange:
Let's take a step further to reconcile this bit of knowledge with the idea that only his will will come to pass. Do you agree with that? With what level of certainty can we say only his will will happen seeing that he, himself, doesn't also know what will happen? And does it mean that it is his will that some men (if not all) will perish?

orunto27:
FATHER OF. NATURE. IS OF PEACE!!!

HE CREATED EVERYTHING TWINS.

HE IS THE FATHER AND MOTHER OF JESUS AND DEVIL.

HE IS THE SPIRIT NATURE AND FATHER OF CHRIST AND SATAN.

HE ALSO ACTUALLY PREPARED CHRIST FOR RESURRECTION AND JUDAS FOR DESTRUCTION.

Different sides of same coin.

sonmvayina:


Different sides of same coin.

Same coin how? Who is that guy with the crown of thorns and what was the significance of his wound? Chinko

Blabbermouth:

Alright.
Have you considered that practical experiment?

it does not answer the question I asked. Thanks anyway.

You are the second Christian on this forum to point out certain limitations of Christian god.

Some of the conclusion I drew from your explanation

1. Christian god (or your particular god because other Christians may disagree with you) does not know what will happen to himself in the future (because future doesn't exist). Thus, HIS FUTURE IS UNCERTAIN

2. Your god does not know the number of people that will live on the earth from it inception to the end. Because he doesn't know the future.

3. Judgement day may not happen. Because your god doesn't know the future and judgement day is in the future.

4. Your god doesn't know with certainty if jesus would be killed in his second coming

5. Your god can't prophesy future with certainty. Because future is obscure to him and many things could change his plan. For example, your Bible claimed that his original plan was for Adam to live forever in paradise. He didn't know that Adam would be Misled by satan and eventually ended up living on the earth.

Trying to solve the problem of freewill by limiting the knowledge and power your supposed God will only create more problem for him.

Two explanation may help out

1. Such God does not exist. You are only trying to justify his existence using your rational mind

2. He exist but doesn't care about us or our religion.

javaRookie:


You are speaking from both sides of your mouth then because a few posts up there, you said that the Devil is an angel of which God created.
And to think of the fact that God is all knowing so he knew the Angel who was the Devil but went ahead to create him. He in turn rebelled (of which God knew he will)
Invariably, God created him to deceive his very own creations, then go ahead to punish his creations for falling prey of the same Devil he created?!

Tell me something else pls.

Me too, I wonder o.

Why would a teacher set exam questions when he knows that some of his dear students will fail the exam. Why doesn't a teacher just give every student of his first position.

Schools would have been a beautiful place to be.

Image123:


Same coin how? Who is that guy with the crown of thorns and what was the significance of his wound? Chinko

Light and darkness... One can't exist without the other...

Life...

shadeyinka:

Me too, I wonder o.

Why would a teacher set exam questions when he knows that some of his dear students will fail the exam. Why doesn't a teacher just give every student of his first position.

Schools would have been a beautiful place to be.

Great!! I like this analogy you presented. That was just all I wanted to hear.
You know most of the times we Christians are raised not to ask questions even when there are some lapses.
There are so many things that is hives a perfect explanation concerning the Bible and its doctrines. But due to the fact that we all stand by this don't question god some of these questions go unanswered and thereby creating confusion to some rational Christians.

shadeyinka:

Me too, I wonder o.

Why would a teacher set exam questions when he knows that some of his dear students will fail the exam. Why doesn't a teacher just give every student of his first position.

Schools would have been a beautiful place to be.

Great!! I like this analogy you presented. That was just all I wanted to hear.
You know most of the times we Christians are raised not to ask questions even when there are some lapses.
There are so many things that needs a perfect explanation concerning the Bible and its doctrines. But due to the fact that we all stand by this "Don't question God" thingy some of these questions go unanswered and thereby creating confusion to some rational Christians.

Someone up there while trying to proffer a suitable answer said God doesn't know the future, what's your take on that?

etrange:


Thank you for this scenario. It actually sheds more light on my question above. (I assume this scenario does not make any distinction between man and the supreme being cause that would only make it useless).

When He said he created man in his own image, what do you think he meant?
(Howbeit, there is still a lot on this that you need to know)

etrange:


In response, I would say I orchestrated the series of events that would go on to constitute the future. I understand that bit. But even in the scenario above, there was a possibility of my phone button malfunctioning and I not being able to eventually put it. This implies that while I might have willed for all these to happen, anything could really be an impedance, anything I didn't forsee because I can't tell the "non existen" future.

According to you, what you did can be referred to as "orchestrating some series of events that will go on to constitute the future"....
How is this possible?
Answer: You had a free will and the capability to do such to anything you have perfect control (or say, authority) over. By controlling (or say, manipulating) things like (1) your phone (2) your shirt (3) yourself , you were able to orchestrate series of events that went on to constitute the future.
I'm glad you pointed out the possibility that your phone button might suddenly misbehave. So, the phone wouldn't have switched off just as you planned.
A case like this will only happen if you actually do not have TOTAL CONTROL over a thing or an event (as in the case of your phone, you never had the total control to make it power off)...

All you just did above, God can do it! However, in a far far far far far larger larger larger larger (× infinity) scale than you did yours.
Unlike you, God will/cannot lose control. Unlike you, them no born the phone well make e say e no go off, if that supreme being command it to off.

(When God does things in this manner, humans not being able to comprehend what he did will quickly conclude he went to watch the movie called "the future" and was now narrating it to us.

Now, you are getting to know this supreme being more...

Blabbermouth:

.

Do your sect of Christianity believe in DESTINY?

And does God know with certainty when (date, time, cause etc) I'm going to die according to your belief?

Blabbermouth:

When He said he created man in his own image, what do you think he meant?
(Howbeit, there is still a lot on this that you need to know)


According to you, what you did can be referred to as "orchestrating some series of events that will go on to constitute the future"....
How is this possible?
Answer: You had a free will and the capability to do such to anything you have perfect control (or say, authority) over. By controlling (or say, manipulating) things like (1) your phone (2) your shirt (3) yourself , you were able to orchestrate series of events that went on to constitute the future.
I'm glad you pointed out the possibility that your phone button might suddenly misbehave. So, the phone wouldn't have switched off just as you planned.
A case like this will only happen if you actually do not have TOTAL CONTROL over a thing or an event (as in the case of your phone, you never had the total control to make it power off)...

All you just did above, God can do it! However, in a far far far far far larger larger larger larger (× infinity) scale than you did yours.
Unlike you, God will/cannot lose control. Unlike you, them no born the phone well make e say e no go off, if that supreme being command it to off.

(When God does things in this manner, humans not being able to comprehend what he did will quickly conclude he went to watch the movie called "the future" and was now narrating it to us.

Now, you are getting to know this supreme being more...

Xmuslim, this one is actually for you. Please read it and tell me what you think.

Xmuslim:
it does not answer the question I asked. Thanks anyway.

You are the second Christian on this forum to point out certain limitations of Christian god.

Some of the conclusion I drew from your explanation

1. Christian god (or your particular god because other Christians may disagree with you) does not know what will happen to himself in the future (because future doesn't exist). Thus, HIS FUTURE IS UNCERTAIN

2. Your god does not know the number of people that will live on the earth from it inception to the end. Because he doesn't know the future.

3. Judgement day may not happen. Because your god doesn't know the future and judgement day is in the future.

4. Your god doesn't know with certainty if jesus would be killed in his second coming

5. Your god can't prophesy future with certainty. Because future is obscure to him and many things could change his plan. For example, your Bible claimed that his original plan was for Adam to live forever in paradise. He didn't know that Adam would be Misled by satan and eventually ended up living on the earth.

Trying to solve the problem of freewill by limiting the knowledge and power your supposed God will only create more problem for him.

Two explanation may help out

1. Such God does not exist. You are only trying to justify his existence using your rational mind

2. He exist but doesn't care about us or our religion.

To start with, I so much wished you considered the practical and gave answers to those questions.. Trust me, we would have grounded everything there.

Secondly, the only thing that limits God is his nature.
(If I had said it this way, you would not have understood what I meant)

About those questions you asked, can you please summarize them after you give an answer to my experimental questions.. Just one answer will solve the puzzle as all your questions are related.

Be not quick to draw conclusions, there is much more to know about this entity!

Consider that experiment please, so much depends on it.

Xmuslim:


Do your sect of Christianity believe in DESTINY?

And does God know with certainty when (date, time, cause etc) I'm going to die according to your belief?

Humans and their funny thinking..
What the hell is "destiny"?
Perhaps you should read any version of the bible and see God using the word " IF" and not "after" or "when"...
And God said - "IF you will walk in my ways, to keep my commandments, as your father David did, THEN I will lengthen your days"

And God said - "This day have I set before you Life and Death. Choose life that you may live....."

God in all his might would never choose for man. The price for your salvation has been paid for long ago, howbeit, you will have to, by your free will, accept such glorious and wonderful gift.

Consider the people of Nineveh
... God sent Jonah to cry against the city, that for their wickedness, the city will be overthrown..
Nineveh knew enough the character of the Lord God, they didn't start packing from the city seeking asylum in other cities. They knew they could appeal to the merciful dimension of this supreme God.
Immediately, they repented, from the king even down to the slaves.
See what happened afterwards
Jonah 3:10 - "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil ways; and God repented of the evil, that he said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."
IF Nineveh had not/did not repent, God would have destroyed every living man in the city.
Nineveh however did repent, and God didn't destroy anything...
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