The devil is a Christian creation..not God .God the creator is responsible for everything whether good or evil and he has placed both in front of us to make our choice...he created evil as a learning tool..

There is no where it says that anything God created was evil..

So go and ask the Christian's where they got their devil from..

But if we are to understand what the Christian's refer to as the devil,it will only take a smart pant like me to figure it out.."the ruler of darkness " is just the moon..the moon guys,the moon is the devil..

Nanna or sin.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Sin-Mesopotamian-god

javaRookie:
God has no beginning and end but the question I have is what about Devil/Satan?
Who created the guy?
Does God create evil?
Why then are we fighting the Devil?

Warning: The following undiluted truth will shock you!

Now let me pan out that I never intended leaving any comment on this thread. I just wanted to skim through and exit (as there have been many many similar questions to yours).
The reason why many atheist (increasing in number) are so headstrong on believing God does not exist, is not in the absence of evidence. No! It's actually because a being like God (with those complicated attributes) lacks a tangible amount of logic.

Over to your question, permit me to be rhetorical and ask you the following questions;

Q: Does God know who can/will kill him?
A: No!
Why? A being that can make God nob-existent does not exist

Q: Does God know who created him?
A: No!
Why? Such person does not exist

Q: Does God know who can dethrone him
A: No!
Why? A spirit or flesh that can overthrow him does not exist...

Now let me ask you a question that holds the key to solving this (and many other) puzzle

Q: Does God know the future?
General Answer: Yes
Real answer: No!
WHY? "The future" does not exist!
Yes, we have "the past" , yes we have "the present", but a fallacious scenario called " the future" does not exist (yet)!

Now I already know this will spurn a lot of uproar, but before you rush to click the "quote" button, answer this question straight-forwardly;

If God knows the future, Who wrote the future?
(In other words, who determined what the future will be?)
Hahahahahahaha haha hahahahahahaha

If anybody can answer that, then...
Cc: Kingxsamz Maximus69 CAPSLOCKED etrange IMAliyu Xmuslim karleb

Blabbermouth:


If God knows the future, Who wrote the future?
(In other words, who determined what the future will be?)
Hahahahahahaha haha hahahahahahaha

Well I don't know the Christian explanation, but the Muslim explanation was this.

God is not subject to what he creates and this includes time. So therefore the past present and future are all thesame to him.
And the future is of his own planning and making, just as the past and present.
Before creation he already destined everything that will take place and this is associated with his all knowing nature.

This is fine and all until you try to fit freewill into this rigid equation. Then you get paradoxs and contradictions.

Your explanation removes God's omniscience because he can't know the future as you pointed out and he doesn't plan everything, which would make more sense.

IMAliyu:


Well I don't know the Christian explanation, but the Muslim explanation was this.

God is not subject to what he creates and this includes time. So therefore the past present and future are all thesame to him.
And the future is of his own planning and making, just as the past and present.
Before creation he already destined everything that will take place and this is associated with his knowing nature.

This is fine and all until you try to fit freewill into this rigid equation.

Your explanation removes God's omniscience because he can't know the future as you pointed out and he doesn't plan everything which would make more sense.

The mainstream attributes "omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresent, omni---" of God needs to be revisited. Our perception about them has really made it look as if some things are just not right with God, and believers have no choice than to look away.

Consider this;
God is omnipotent, God is omnipotent.... Can God lie?
No! It is impossible for God to lie.
See God is truly all-powerful (omnipotent) but that attribute is defined (or you can say, "put in check) by his nature.

If God wrote the future, that means we are all playing a script.
That means all these worship worship might end up being jamborines and you may end up in Hell since the script (the future) has already pre-ordained it to be so.

Where I (the writer) will end up has already been written by a deity whose authority and will cannot be reversed.

That is logically, reasonably, and most important scripturally, not true!
Because His judgement on the judgement day will be unjust.
He wrote a script, we play the script, then you throw some of us in hell for (perfectly) playing the role you commanded us to play.
(Is this reasonable or supported by the Qur'an?)

God is all-knowing, yes! But He doesn't know the future. This does not mean He is not all-knowing, God forbid! It means " the future " just does not exist yet!

If you understand this, then the OP's question is straight forward

Answer: God did not create Satan "fore knowing" that Satan would become evil. If he Foreknew, Who determined that Satan would fall?

Angels have will. Jinns have will. Humans have will.
Lucifer or ibliss (generally called Satan) has a free will.
By His freewill, He went against God, and that marked the beginning of evil.
(There is a strange story as to why he went against God and how he was able to, but that is not for today)

Blabbermouth:

The mainstream attributes "omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresent, omni---" of God needs to be revisited. Our perception about them has really made it look as if some things are just not right with God, and believers have no choice than to look away.

Consider this;
God is omnipotent, God is omnipotent.... Can God lie?
No! It is impossible for God to lie.
See God is truly all-powerful (omnipotent) but that attribute is defined (or you can say, "put in check) by his nature.

If God wrote the future, that means we are all playing a script.
That means all these worship worship might end up being jamborines and you may end up in Hell since the script (the future) has already pre-ordained it to be so.

Where I (the writer) will end up has already been written by a deity whose authority and will cannot be reversed.

That is logically, reasonably, and most important scripturally, not true!
Because His judgement on the judgement day will be unjust.
He wrote a script, we play the script, then you throw some of us in hell for (perfectly) playing the role you commanded us to play.
(Is this reasonable or supported by the Qur'an?)

God is all-knowing, yes! But He doesn't know the future. This does not mean He is not all-knowing, God forbid! It means " the future " just does not exist yet!

If you understand this, then the OP's question is straight forward

Answer: God did not create Satan "fore knowing" that Satan would become evil. If he Foreknew, Who determined that Satan would fall?

Angels have will. Jinns have will. Humans have will.
Lucifer or ibliss (generally called Satan) has a free will.
By His freewill, He went against God, and that marked the beginning of evil.
(There is a strange story as to why he went against God and how he was able to, but that is not for today)

Interesting and fair enough explanation.

Then in this case, we can assume that God's creation of freewill is him allowing the possibility of evil, but didn't create it per se.

Therefore he made Lucifer with freewill, having the possibility of evil. So God had knowledge that Lucifer could defy him and become the devil, but wouldn't actually know with certainty that he will.

But here is a question, I'm curious on. When did God create hell?

And as much as this explanation makes more sense, there is always the problem that God states that nothing takes place without his foreknowledge.

IMAliyu:

Interesting and fair enough explanation.

Then in this case, we can assume that God's creation of freewill is him allowing the possibility of evil, but didn't create it per se.

Therefore he made Lucifer with freewill, having the possibility of evil. So God had knowledge that Lucifer could defy him and become the devil, but wouldn't actually know with certainty that he will.

But here is a question, I'm curious on. When did God create hell?

Even If I was once a Muslim, I never had the luxury to quake into the Islamic rendition of hell and Paradise.

According to the bible- - - -
“Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41)"

From this scripture, you should automatically realize that hell was created after the fall of Lucifer/ibliss..

The canonical bible did not give a detailed account of how/why Lucifer fell, the Qur'an on the other hand has a fairly detailed account.

Again look at that scripture up there, Jesus said "...into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels"

The eternal fire was initially for the devil and his angels..
Remember, He got his alias "devil" or "shaytan" after he had fallen already.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I love Albert Einstein's way of saying it; Evil is not the opposite of Goodness, it is what we have in the absence of goodness.
Evil never had a definition until Lucifer (abusing his free will) gave it one.

Blabbermouth:

Warning: The following undiluted truth will shock you!

Now let me pan out that I never intended leaving any comment on this thread. I just wanted to skim through and exit (as there have been many many similar questions to yours).
The reason why many atheist (increasing in number) are so headstrong on believing God does not exist, is not in the absence of evidence. No! It's actually because a being like God (with those complicated attributes) lacks a tangible amount of logic.

Over to your question, permit me to be rhetorical and ask you the following questions;

Q: Does God know who can/will kill him?
A: No!
Why? A being that can make God nob-existent does not exist

Q: Does God know who created him?
A: No!
Why? Such person does not exist

Q: Does God know who can dethrone him
A: No!
Why? A spirit or flesh that can overthrow him does not exist...

Now let me ask you a question that holds the key to solving this (and many other) puzzle

Q: Does God know the future?
General Answer: Yes
Real answer: No!
WHY? "The future" does not exist!
Yes, we have "the past" , yes we have "the present", but a fallacious scenario called " the future" does not exist (yet)!

Now I already know this will spurn a lot of uproar, but before you rush to click the "quote" button, answer this question straight-forwardly;

If God knows the future, Who wrote the future?
(In other words, who determined what the future will be?)
Hahahahahahaha haha hahahahahahaha

If anybody can answer that, then...
Cc: Kingxsamz Maximus69 CAPSLOCKED etrange IMAliyu Xmuslim karleb

Ok, so you're going by the logical conclusion that the supreme being, as understood by man, isn't really omniscient.

That's an interesting take.

IMAliyu:


Well I don't know the Christian explanation, but the Muslim explanation was this.

God is not subject to what he creates and this includes time. So therefore the past present and future are all thesame to him.
And the future is of his own planning and making, just as the past and present.
Before creation he already destined everything that will take place and this is associated with his all knowing nature.

This is fine and all until you try to fit freewill into this rigid equation. Then you get paradoxs and contradictions.

Your explanation removes God's omniscience because he can't know the future as you pointed out and he doesn't plan everything, which would make more sense.

Well, you can't keep both the omniscient part of the supreme being and still try to sell it as a good entity cause someone who knows about an impending doom and still goes ahead to orchestrate it can't be called good. Even the concept of freewill doesn't offer any help cause I assume an omniscient being already knew what men and angels would do with the so-called freewill even before creating them.

Saying that the supreme being, as understood by men, is omniscient is tantamount to holding him culpable. We can't just wriggle our way out of that.

etrange:


Ok, so you're going by the logical conclusion that the supreme being, as understood by man, isn't really omniscient.

That's an interesting take.

If "the future" actually exist (perhaps, as a written script) but God does not know it, then He is not omniscient.
However,
If God does not know "the future" because the future actually does not exist, then God is still 100% omniscient.
[I don't know if you perfectly understand what I'm trying to pass across]
I personally do not like the term "omniscient" though.

etrange:


Well, you can't keep both the omniscient part of the supreme being and still try to sell it as a good entity cause someone who knows about an impending doom and still goes ahead to orchestrate it can't be called good. Even the concept of freewill doesn't offer any help cause I assume an omniscient being already knew what men and angels would do with the so-called freewill even before creating them.

Saying that the supreme being, as understood by men, is omniscient is tantamount to holding him culpable. We can't just wriggle our way out of that.

Well, this is something I noticed. The all good God is something that's mostly Christian. A loving heavenly father figure (new testament).

The Muslim version of God doesn't need him to be good. Because he is less of a father figure and more of a ruler/king (more similar to the old testament God). From him is both the good and bad. And all that's required from you is your obedience. You are his creation, for him to do as he wishes.

The reconciliation for freewill, does indeed make more sense if you limit a lot of God's attributes, all the Omni stuff.

Blabbermouth:

If "the future" actually exist (perhaps, as a written script) but God does not know it, then He is not omniscient.
However,
If God does not know "the future" because the future actually does not exist, then God is still 100% omniscient.
[I don't know if you perfectly understand what I'm trying to pass across]

Your point is that the supreme being, as understood by man, doesn't know the future (for whatever reason). I'm not really particular about the word "omniscient". It's just a word subject to different definitions. The important thing thing that you have removed knowing the future from that definition to make it more employable in this context.

etrange:


Your point is that the supreme being, as understood by man, doesn't know the future (for whatever reason). I'm not really particular about the word "omniscient". It's just a word subject to different definitions. The important thing thing that you have removed knowing the future from that definition to make it more employable in this context.

I also removed " the future".
It doesn't exist!

Blabbermouth:

I also removed " the future".
It doesn't exist!

Let's not go round with words. You're saying the supreme being, as understood by man, doesn't know what will happen.

Blabbermouth:

I also removed " the future".
It doesn't exist!

let me tell you the Muslim explanation for this. I was once a Muslim.

The past, the present and the future have already happened in the knowledge of God. He is not bound by time. However, he didn't create the future per se. He only allowed it to happen and because he has the knowledge of everything that will happen in the future, he wrote them down. So, we are playing a script, but not that we were forced into action. We chose every actions ourselves.

Lest I forgot, Islam also have a concept of permissibility of future events. Thus, God knows the future, but he only permit certain part of the future to happen.

Saying future does not exist makes no sense. It is just a cognitive dissonance employed by some Christians to justify the illogical description of God in the Bible. If I ask you to support your claim with the Bible now, would you be able to quote a verse?

etrange:


Let's not go round with words. You're saying the supreme being, as understood by man, doesn't know what will happen.

Alright, let's not go round with words. There is nothing like "knowing what will happen", because " what will happen" has not happened.
Are we clear?

Blabbermouth:

Alright, let's not go round with words. There is nothing like "knowing what will happen", because " what will happen" has not happened.
Are we clear?

if God only knows the events after their occurrences, it means

1. God will be surprised by some events. He will be sad/dissappointed by some events.

2. The future of God is not certain just like human future

3. God could be overthrown, because he will be caught unprepared.

Let me stop here.

Not knowing the future is part of what limit humans and if God is also affected by this, it is only a matter of time before human takes his place.

Xmuslim:
if God only knows the events after their occurrences, it means

1. God will be surprised by some events. He will be sad/dissappointed by some events.

2. The future of God is not certain just like human future

3. God could be overthrown, because he will be caught unprepared.

Let me stop here.

Not knowing the future is part of what limit humans and if God is also affected by this, it is only a matter of time before human takes his place.

Humans and their feeble mind...
1. Yes!
Proof:
> God, at a point regretted that He created man
> God's will was for all of Israel to be a priestly nation (i.e Every citizen will have the access to enter into the holies). Sadly, Israel scattered it and the priesthood was limited to just a tribe (Free will of man was perfectly evident here)

2. Again stop assuming a fancy fore determined event called "future" exist. There is nothing like "the future of God".

3. God being overthrown?
Hahahahahahaha you got the wrong god.
Why? It is only an installed king that can be overthrown.
To add to that , the "overthrower" will have to first conceive such plans in his mind. Now that such plan exist in the heart of a being, God being all-knowing knows the plan to the most minute detail.
PS: Your Islamic experience didn't give you the grace to truly know this supreme being called God.

Xmuslim:
let me tell you the Muslim explanation for this. I was once a Muslim.

The past, the present and the future have already happened in the knowledge of God. He is not bound by time. However, he didn't create the future per se. He only allowed it to happen and because he has the knowledge of everything that will happen in the future, he wrote them down. So, we are playing a script, but not that we were forced into action. We chose every actions ourselves.

Lest I forgot, Islam also have a concept of permissibility of future events. Thus, God knows the future, but he only permit certain part of the future to happen.

Saying future does not exist makes no sense. It is just a cognitive dissonance employed by some Christians to justify the illogical description of God in the Bible. If I ask you to support your claim with the Bible now, would you be able to quote a verse?

This is a very funny statement considering that you see yourself as an atheist.
You said "Saying future does not exist makes no sense" hahahahahahhaahahaha..
Perhaps, this is what makes sense (according to you) - "Future does exist".
If so, riddle me this;
WHO WROTE THE FUTURE?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No bible verse, I repeat, No bible verse counters what I said.
It's possible your Allah have the script for the future events, but my God doesn't , because such a script does not exist.

etrange, perhaps we should borrow a leaf from Logic and premises.

1. God knows all things
2. "Nonexistent things" do not count as "all things"
3. God does not know "nonexistent things" because they do not exist
4. Future is non existent
5. God does not know the future

Blabbermouth:

Humans and their feeble mind...
1. Yes!
Proof:
> God, at a point regretted that He created man
> God's will was for all of Israel to be a priestly nation (i.e Every citizen will have the access to enter into the holies). Sadly, Israel scattered it and the priesthood was limited to just a tribe (Free will of man was perfectly evident here)

2. Again stop assuming a fancy fore determined event called "future" exist. There is nothing like "the future of God".

3. God being overthrown?
Hahahahahahaha you got the wrong god.
Why? It is only an installed king that can be overthrown.
To add to that , the "overthrower" will have to first conceive such plans in his mind. Now that such plan exist in the heart of a being, God being all-knowing knows the plan to the most minute detail.
PS: Your Islamic experience didn't give you the grace to truly know this supreme being called God.

Even though I'm no longer a believer, I think a God that regret his action is too weak. A god that doesn't know what will happen tomorrow is too weak to be a god. I think Muslim god will overpower your god if they are to fight each other.

Talking about non-existencr of the future. A simple question please. Is the statement below correct?

Anyone with good education have a potential of becoming the president of this country in the future.

If it is correct, it means future exist. The only thing preventing us from knowing future events is TIME. If your God does not know the future, that means he's bound by time and he cannot boast that he will last forever, since he doesn't know the future.

Also, before the emergence of our universe, time probably didn't exist. If TRUE, then in the absence of TIME, there is no past, and no future. Everything is happening in the PRESENT in such being's sight. Remember, time is the reason why we have past and future.

But, If time has being existing infinitely, it means your God must have a beginning. There must be a time in the past when there was no Christian god. This will create infinite regression problem.

Xmuslim:


Even though I'm no longer a believer, I think a God that regret his action is too weak. A god that doesn't know what will happen tomorrow is too weak to be a god. I think Muslim god will overpower your god if they are to fight each other.

Talking about non-existencr of the future. A simple question please. Is the statement below correct?

Anyone with good education have a potential of becoming the president of this country in the future.
If it is correct, it means future exist. The only thing preventing us from knowing future events is TIME. If your God does not know the future, that means he's bound by time and he cannot boast that he will last forever, since he doesn't know the future.

This will take you weeks to fully comprehend (yes, it took me days, I was struggling against the truth, trying to defend what I previously believed)

The big ? Is not in God if God knows the future.
The big ? Is
"If a future exist, who wrote the future?"
I see you've been dodging this question since...

The statement you asked for it's validity has that "IF" clause... Just like every other event that is yet to happen.
("It is likely" does not mean it will happen)

By the way, you still reasoning like a typical believer though.

Xmuslim:
Also, before the emergence of our universe, time probably didn't exist. If TRUE, then in the absence of TIME, there is no past, and no future. Everything is happening in the PRESENT in such being's sight. Remember, time is the reason why we have past and future.

But, If time has being existing infinitely, it means your God must have a beginning. There must be a time in the past when there was no Christian god. This will create infinite regression problem.

Still, your religious mind is playing tricks on you....
Nothing like "future".

Blabbermouth:

This will take you weeks to fully comprehend (yes, it took me days, I was struggling against the truth, trying to defend what I previously believed)

The big ? Is not in God if God knows the future.
The big ? Is
"If a future exist, who wrote the future?"
I see you've been dodging this question since...

The statement you asked for it's validity has that "IF" clause... Just like every other event that is yet to happen.
("It is likely" does not mean it will happen)

By the way, you still reasoning like a typical believer though.

I didn't dodge the question. From Islamic perspective, God wrote the future. However, he wrote it based on his knowledge of what will happen, not that he forced the event to happen. (note that there are some other stuff in Islam that may contradict this. I'm not here to defend Islam).

Regarding reasoning like a believer. I have two personalities already. I was a believer, so it's easy for me to reason like a believer. It does not mean I still believe in those stuff. I only know them. A Christian may study Islam and use it to preach against Islam.

Blabbermouth:

Still, your religious mind is playing tricks on you....
Nothing like "future".

OK bro. I will look more into this. I will try and study more about this issue.

Nevertheless, even if your NO Future statement is true, it does not solve the problem of your religion. There are still thousands of things that are not right with Christianity.

However, good thing about atheist and agnostics is that we tend to accept the truth if we find sufficient evidence, unlike you guys that already concluded that you know the TRUTH.

Let me ask you this. Are there some specific future that your god knows?

Xmuslim:


I didn't dodge the question. From Islamic perspective, God wrote the future. However, he wrote it based on his knowledge of what will happen, not that he forced the event to happen. (note that there are some other stuff in Islam that may contradict this. I'm not here to defend Islam).

Regarding reasoning like a believer. I have two personalities already. I was a believer, so it's easy for me to reason like a believer. It does not mean I still believe in those stuff. I only know them. A Christian may study Islam and use it to preach against Islam.

"Based on the knowledge of what will happen, not that he forced the event to happen"
If I were a Muslim and I saw this, I will need a rehab. That statement painted the being as a sage with good prediction accuracy.

If you believe the future exist, please go back to your imam and reboot your life as a Muslim.
(The writer of the future is more than worthy of your worship)

Xmuslim:


OK bro. I will look more into this. I will try and study more about this issue.

Nevertheless, even if your NO Future statement is true, it does not solve the problem of your religion. There are still thousands of things that are not right with Christianity.

However, good thing about atheist and agnostics is that we tend to accept the truth if we find sufficient evidence, unlike you guys that already concluded that you know the TRUTH.

"There are still thousands of things that are not right with Christianity" things like?

Blabbermouth:

"Based on the knowledge of what will happen, not that he forced the event to happen"
If I were a Muslim and I saw this, I will need a rehab. That statement painted the being as a sage with good prediction accuracy.

It's easy to understand though. Consider a movie you have watched. If watching it second time, won't you know what will happen before it happens? Do you force it to happen. Let me know what you think?

Xmuslim:
Let me ask you this. Are there some specific future that your god knows?

Explain your question please... So I don't end up misinterpreting you.

Blabbermouth:

"There are still thousands of things that are not right with Christianity" things like?

Let's finish this first.

Blabbermouth:

Explain your question please... So I don't end up misinterpreting you.

is there anything that hasn't happened that God knows exactly how it will happen