gregyboy:

We are afar apart from the last century were info was limited to only the few, so any information passed could be easily accepted

After doing my research i found out that some European had criticize the benin ife mythical connection even before the 60s, but this information couldn't surface to counter the myth because it was not easily accessible and even some elite like benin historian who came across this materials shunned it down because they are one of the back bones that promotes the myth for their own benefits

Its a fact that some people will always control the information we hear and see even in this modern times, but atleast lets learn to listen to the people who are not fooled


The benin-ife myth shouldn't stand anymore we have long past the late century that anything could go
The yorubas are interfering with our history and they should backoff,
If they want to attach themselves with our history they should come through the front door and not the backdoor......

Our oba is a fully blooded benin man since ancients times, we know when the ife myth started and how the benin enjoyed it, till it turned soared for us, when yorubas politically hijacked it and almost yorubanise our history for us and wanted to dump our king as a regular chief,until we resulted in a defensive attacks on their yorubanise agenda on our history


Gregyboy is here to tell the history the way it is,

I have disgraced you repeatedly (even on your own threads) regarding the Ife-Benin connection. You always run away.

The two embedded images below show a circa 1300 A.D. ‘bronze’ sculpture of the then Ooni of Ife. This figure was excavated from the palace of Benin kingdom.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/11555237_11424577screenshot20190518174256jpeg914408e4bec15692c9e651a0b301769f_jpeg_jpeg30203ddd5168bccf1908e9c9f5a1fead

Another Angle:
www.nairaland.com/attachments/11555238_11427363screenshot20200426at115936amjpegda815e1e70859f70855eca8ea386219f_jpeg_jpeg1556c8b25833645cac380aa021666e32

Q: How did scholars come to the conclusion that this figure represents the then Ooni of Ife??

A: They noticed that the regalia [i.e. (1)the textile covering the lower body; (2)the two longer and bigger beaded necklaces running from around the shoulder down towards the knees; (3)the stack of some two or three annulus-shaped neck pieces sitting quite atop the collarbone; (4)the one piece of necklace (made of small spherical beads) sitting quite atop the annulus-shaped pieces; (5)the many intricately designed pieces of beaded necklaces covering the upper body — including the chest and the abdomen; and most importantly, the two beaded pieces of regalia sitting right on the chest among other unique commonalities] is the exact same regalia seen on the different ‘bronze’ figures of Ife Kings excavated from Ife itself.

See the embedded images below for two examples of such figures which were recovered from Ife itself, and then compare:

www.nairaland.com/attachments/11680193_screenshot20200606161235_jpeg88b6cb1312b4cc63bab7ca95f3bba6e0

Another One:
www.nairaland.com/attachments/11680177_screenshot20200606160130_jpega8c506efc9844ee61b89afa5a0240dee

Moreover, scholars realize that not a single one of the ‘bronze’ figures of Benin Kings shows the same regalia. And there is no other ‘bronze’ figure anywhere else that actually does.

I know in your reply to this you will, as usual, bring up the distraction of how the crowns are different while completely ignoring the unique regalia which is not found anywhere else except in Ife.

The ready-made refutation for such reply is that just as Benin kingdom does not have only one type of crowns for its kings; Ife also (as well as any kingdom for that matter) have different variety of crowns for its kings.

The embedded image below is an example of a crown from Ife which is likewise tall and likewise without the signature-round & vertical front piece.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/11684185_screenshot20200607101757_jpeg78a5e08cfa86f285ad9a1f44002ccdd9

In sum then, this find here is a hard evidence (i.e. from archaeology) which not only proves the early connection between Ife and Benin, but also specifically proves the suzerainty of the Ooni of Ife over Benin Kingdom.

The President’s portrait is kept in the office of the Governor, et al., but never the other way round.

gregyboy:
We are afar apart from the last century were info was limited to only the few, so any information passed could be easily accepted

After doing my research i found out that some European had criticize the benin ife mythical connection even before the 60s, but this information couldn't surface to counter the myth because it was not easily accessible and even some elite like benin historian who came across this materials shunned it down because they are one of the back bones that promotes the myth for their own benefits

Its a fact that some people will always control the information we hear and see even in this modern times, but atleast lets learn to listen to the people who are not fooled


The benin-ife myth shouldn't stand anymore we have long past the late century that anything could go
The yorubas are interfering with our history and they should backoff,
If they want to attach themselves with our history they should come through the front door and not the backdoor......

Our oba is a fully blooded benin man since ancients times, we know when the ife myth started and how the benin enjoyed it, till it turned soared for us, when yorubas politically hijacked it and almost yorubanise our history for us and wanted to dump our king as a regular chief,until we resulted in a defensive attacks on their yorubanise agenda on our history

Gregyboy is here to tell the history the way it is,

I have already refuted your 2nd attachment in this same thread.

But in case you missed it, then here we go again:

(1) First of all, extant Yoruba accounts and Benin accounts hold that Oranmiyan did not get to be coronated as Oba in Benin, although that was the original agreement all along.

While most of the Edo elders, who of course invited him to Benin (then Ado), supported that he should reign as King, a handful of the elders were non-cooperating.

The resistance from this pocket of resisting elders appears sufficient to frustrate and dispirit the original agreement and plans.

He ultimately left Ado, but his son born to him by one of their ladies was subsequently coronated as the first Oba. This is, however, not without some commitment and side conditions to appease the disgruntled elders.

Thus did Eweka 1 (his son) become the first Oba of Benin. This is the standard and extant traditional account from both the Yoruba side and the Benin side.

It is only relatively recently that the Binis began to confuse themselves and others. They can not even agree among themselves till date on who their first Oba was between Oranmiyan and his son (Eweka 1).

This muddling and conflation played out publicly quite recently during the coronation of the reigning Benin King when he publicly announced himself as the 40th Oba even though his immediate predecessor was the 38th.

So, your question of why the later Benin king-lists (such as the one collected by Talbot in Benin, or the one collected by Egharevba from an Esekhurhe priest) now has Oranmiyan as the first Oba is a question that you must direct to yourself and the Bini informants, not to others that are not Binis.

It appears very obvious that confusion is an early Bini thing.

It is not surprising then that the earliest known Benin king-list collected by Captain Ernest Roupell in 1897-8 has Eweka 1 has the first Oba of Benin. This is in perfect agreement with extant Yoruba traditional accounts and extant Benin traditional accounts.

Refer to S. A. Akintoye, “A History of the Yoruba People”, 2010, Amalion Publishing, p.117 for a summary of this extant Benin and Yoruba traditional accounts.

gregyboy:
We are afar apart from the last century were info was limited to only the few, so any information passed could be easily accepted

After doing my research i found out that some European had criticize the benin ife mythical connection even before the 60s, but this information couldn't surface to counter the myth because it was not easily accessible and even some elite like benin historian who came across this materials shunned it down because they are one of the back bones that promotes the myth for their own benefits

Its a fact that some people will always control the information we hear and see even in this modern times, but atleast lets learn to listen to the people who are not fooled


The benin-ife myth shouldn't stand anymore we have long past the late century that anything could go
The yorubas are interfering with our history and they should backoff,
If they want to attach themselves with our history they should come through the front door and not the backdoor......

Our oba is a fully blooded benin man since ancients times, we know when the ife myth started and how the benin enjoyed it, till it turned soared for us, when yorubas politically hijacked it and almost yorubanise our history for us and wanted to dump our king as a regular chief,until we resulted in a defensive attacks on their yorubanise agenda on our history

Gregyboy is here to tell the history the way it is,

For your first attachment, here you go:

(a) A.F.C. Ryder’s 1965 hypothesis which you’ve attached here have been thoroughly debunked by subsequent archaeological finds which weren’t available at the time of his 1965 publication.

(b) Also, his unfamiliarity with certain information such as the significance of Oba Eweka’s morning ritual to Ife while facing the rising sun at dawn also contributed to his confusion and misinterpretation.

One such historian and scholar of African History who have contributed at some great depth to the disastrous refutation of his hypothesis is Robin Horton in his “Ancient Ife: A Reassessment”. Robin Horton writes in relation to this subject as follows:

“Curiously, Ryder, in pursuing his argument, does so in full awareness of a fact which one might have expected to moderate his enthusiasm for it. Here, I refer to the ritual in which the Oba of Benin addresses prayers to his forefathers at Ife through an eastward facing window at dawn, thus making an identification (albeit a symbolic one) between Ife and the east.* Far from sounding a note of caution in the face of this fact, he regards it as yet further evidence that the original home of the Eweka dynasty was not Ife but some more easterly or north-easterly center. His reasoning seem to be that, since the symbolism of dawn and east is alien to Ife or indeed Yoruba religious life, the ritual must represent a relatively recent grafting of the idea of Ife as dynastic home, on to a more ancient practice directed to the real dynastic home in the east or north-east.

In fact, as further information now makes plain, Ryder’s interpretation of this ritual is misguided. To start with, if we turn to Dahomey, on the opposite margin of our region, we find much the same identification. Thus Maupoil, in his classic account of Dahomean religion, tells once more of a strong association of Ife with dawn and the east. He adds that although in this area the association is one that actually does correspond with geographical reality, in the minds of the people it is not so much a summary of geographical observation as a highly appropriate piece of symbolism. For Dahomeans, dawn and the east are in this context first and foremost symbols of certain admired attributes of Ife.* Again, several scholars have noticed, there is an epithet widely current in our region which praises the city as: “Ife, creator of the world, whence come the dawn”.* Far from being something isolated and alien, then, this symbolic association of Ife with dawn and the east is something highly characteristic of the region.

Had Ryder known of this background to the Oba’s dawn prayers, he would surely have drawn somewhat different conclusions ... And had he taken this into account, he would surely have been less enthusiastic about his “look anywhere but west” approach.

Further information has also cast doubt on the iconographic arguments with which Ryder buttresses his case. Thus we now have several examples of the Maltese-cross symbols on terra-cotta materials excavated at Ife.* And the presence of this symbol in the city’s archaeological deposits vitiates the argument [with which Ryder buttresses his case], ... Again, we now have several examples of the “cat’s-whisker” facial mark on terra-cotta heads excavated at “classical” Ife sites. And the presence of this mark vitiates yet another argument.* ... Oddly, he himself acknowledges in a footnote the existence of one “cat’s whisker” head excavated at Ife. But rather than allow it cast doubt on his argument, he treats it as the exception that proves the rule. With discovery of several such pieces, however, such special pleading, already dubious, becomes totally unacceptable.

Nor are the Maltese cross and the “cat’s-whisker” the only Bini motifs for which Ife counterparts have been established over the past few years. On the contrary, recent excavations at Ife have revealed a whole series of motifs previously thought to be peculiar to Benin.*

Along with the new iconographic findings, we have also acquired an impressive series of dates. Application of carbon-14 and thermoluminescience [sic] techniques to excavated materials has enabled us to assign approximate absolute dates to several major Ife settlement levels and to the terra-cotta and brass works associated with them. Dates for terra-cotta pieces range from c. A.D. 1000 onward; whilst dates for brass pieces range from c. A.D. 1275 to c. A.D. 1440. Application of these techniques to materials from Owo and Benin has also enabled us to assign dates to some of the ”classical” terra-cotta and brass-work associated with these cities. Significantly, the Owo and Benin date-series begin slightly later than their Ife counterparts. One particularly interesting Benin date is for a brass piece previously assessed by Fagg and Dark as early on the ground of its Ife-type naturalism. Thermoluminescence tests give it a date of c. AD. 1420 — just what it should be on the premises adopted by these authors.*

Taken together, the new iconographic and dating discoveries would seem to have swung the balance of evidence back in favour of the consensual thesis of a “classical” political and artistic tradition which originated in Ife and subsequently spread to Benin.”

~ Robin Horton, “Ancient Ife: A Reassessment”, Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol. 9, No. 4 (June 1979), pp. 85-87.
.
.
.
(2) On the overall, the decisive evidence which conclusively demolishes Ryder’s hypothesis (and other hypotheses like his) is the archaeological find of a bronze figure of the then Ooni of Ife which was excavated from the palace of Benin Kingdom and dated to c. A.D. 1300.

I have elaborated significantly on this particular find in my foregoing comment, as to how it conclusively establishes the early imperial domination of Benin Kingdom by the sacred and ancient Kingdom of Ife

Ogiso was a myth.....told to make the benin royalty look divine and extend the years of the kingdom


Oba was always our title like i have always told TAO12


She Knows this and she is pained about it?


Benin-ife was a liar ife


I traced it to the books so as many professors


Oba has always been the tilte there was never ogiso who ruled so please tao11 stop living on a myth oromiyan game to dispose a non existing mythical kings


Ogie is like a tile for emir it means royalty and mostly use for dukes and Refrence royalty in benin


Oba is like the title for sultan, no duke(ogie) can bear the title oba except the oba of benin


The relationship shared between yorubas and benin after the creation of nigeria made yorubas kings adopt the title oba

The title oba was first introduced to the eastern yorubas till it entired the lingua franca of the entire yoruba and dey adopted it as a general name for their king after 1930

gregyboy:
[s]Ogiso was a myth.....told to make the benin royalty look divine and extend the years of the kingdom


Oba was always our title like i have always told TAO12


She Knows this and she is pained about it?


Benin-ife was a liar ife


I traced it to the books so as many professors


Oba has always been the tilte there was never ogiso who ruled so please tao11 stop living on a myth oromiyan game to dispose a non existing mythical kings


Ogie is like a tile for emir it means royalty and mostly use for dukes and Refrence royalty in benin


Oba is like the title for sultan, no duke(ogie) can bear the title oba except the oba of benin


The relationship shared between yorubas and benin after the creation of nigeria made yorubas kings adopt the title oba

The title oba was first introduced to the eastern yorubas till it entired the lingua franca of the entire yoruba and dey adopted it as a general name for their king after 1930[/s]

Evidence for your claim that Benin was never ruled by Kings of the title “Ogiso” prior to the “Oba” dynasty.

In short, evidence for all your claims here or 600 years for you.

You actually haven’t said anything about the comment below which I posted earlier:

I already told you where I saw it. Your eyes seem to be covered in tears.

I will repeat where I saw it again so you can cry harder:

It is in a video recorded last week or thereabout from your Benin Palace where one of the Chiefs is seen chanting the praise poetry (oríkì in Yoruba) of your Oba in his presence.

Yes, he called his progenitor as “Oba n’Uhe” — Oba at Ife.

I am asking for the second time, do you want to see the video yourself so you can drown in your own tears?? $&@*^%#€

TAO11:
First of all, Oba is simply a Yoruba common noun (and not a proper noun) and simply means “King”, etc.

Secondly, talking about “title” now (i.e. the proper noun):

The title for the Benin King is “Omo N’Oba” (not Oba — Oba is simply a common noun in Yoruba simply meaning King).

Omo n’Oba which is your King’s’s title simply means: the child of the king; or as you all love to twist it: the child that shines $9@&£€ .
.
.
.
Having said that, it is an open secret that you’re scared of me. Everyone on Nairaland knows that.

I single-handedly suffocated the whole of Benin Kingdom on Nairaland with my two hands.

Doesn’t that not tell you who the super weaklings are??

Having said that, “Oba” has no monarch-related meaning in Edo language.

The word for “King” in your language is “Ogie”, as seen in the word “Ogiso” from the phrase “Ogie-Iso” — “KING from the SKY”.

I triple-dare any Edo/Bini here to break down the word “Oba” into its component part and then inform us syllable-by-syllable how each component come together to produce the word “King” or any of its equivalent — This is like asking you people to bring forward a married bachelor. It is simply impossible to do.

Here is a link to a destructive finishing I gave Benin Kingdom a day ago:

https://www.nairaland.com/6048841/how-unveil-promote-ancient-igbo/55#93639393

cc: Keraxes, sesan85, gomojam

You are here my queen. Let me rest back and learn then.

gregyboy, are you still willing to see the video where your Oba was praised as the son of “Oba n’Uhe”??

Let me know if you want to see it since you alleged that it didn’t exist.



In sum: Your Oba knows that his progenitor in Ife was an Oba.

And this progenitor lived and ruled obviously before the beginning of the Oba dynasty in Benin.

Brutality!!

gomojam:
You are here my queen. Let me rest back and learn then.

Lol.

There is a lot of interesting information here. Please take your time and read all to the end.

[quote author=TAO11 post=93712561] I already told you where I saw it. Your eyes seem to be covered in tears.

I will repeat where I saw it again so you can cry harder:

It is in a video recorded last week or thereabout from your Benin Palace where one of the Chiefs is seen chanting the praise poetry (oríkì in Yoruba) of your Oba in his presence.

Yes, he called his progenitor as “Oba n’Uhe” — Oba at Ife.

I am asking for the second time, do you want to see the video yourself so you can drown in your own tears?? $&@*^%#€

cc: Keraxes, gomojam, sesan85[/quoteI

You're too brilliant for my liking, lol. I could watch and leave only you to deal with these silly Benin revisionists all by yourself all day, lol. Yes, I trust you that much. The slowpoke wasn't/isn't even aware that "the son of the wealthy Odua of Ife" and "Ikeji Orisa" are part of the praise names of his Yoruba descended Oba. Bunch of morons!

gregyboy:




The name ile binu was given by itskeri not oromiyan, a mythical guy from ife, the Portuguese and other European traded with benins for 400yrs and some died at ughoton, some ethnographers even visited the palace and the oba allowed them visit his ancestoral shrines, the Europeans were eager to write and document benin history to sell to their country men and as a matter of fact ethnographers who visted benin 1820 documented that the origin of the dynasty originated when a white god came to sleep with the ogiso daughter who later gave birth to a son who birthed the oba dynasty non mentioned oromiyan or ife relationship with benin over their 400yrs visit to benin angry,
as a matter of fact the itsekiri were the first to meet the Portuguese at the shores of ughoton who later informed them not to venture into edo as the people were always angry, and used alot of human sacrifice if strangers there approached it

Please if you have not read several articles or books on benin history dont open your dirty mouth because you read just an article promoting a benin-ife myth you feel you now have a right to have a say, on this discussion

Lol, Itsekiris named Benin Ile Ibinu and not Oranmiyan? Oranmiyan is also just "a mythical guy from Ife"? Not even your fellow Benin revisionists will call Oranmiyan "a mythical guy from Ife. It's not advisable to continue arguing with incorrigible, pea-brained knuckleheads. You're the dumbest Benin revisionist I've seen on here.

TAO11:
For your first attachment, here you go:

(a) A.F.C. Ryder’s 1965 hypothesis which you’ve attached here have been thoroughly debunked by subsequent archaeological finds which weren’t available at the time of his 1965 publication.

(b) Also, his unfamiliarity with certain information such as the significance of Oba Eweka’s morning ritual to Ife while facing the rising sun at dawn also contributed to his confusion and misinterpretation.

One such historian and scholar of African History who have contributed at some great depth to the disastrous refutation of his hypothesis is Robin Horton in his “Ancient Ife: A Reassessment”. Robin Horton writes in relation to this subject as follows:

“Curiously, Ryder, in pursuing his argument, does so in full awareness of a fact which one might have expected to moderate his enthusiasm for it. Here, I refer to the ritual in which the Oba of Benin addresses prayers to his forefathers at Ife through an eastward facing window at dawn, thus making an identification (albeit a symbolic one) between Ife and the east.* Far from sounding a note of caution in the face of this fact, he regards it as yet further evidence that the original home of the Eweka dynasty was not Ife but some more easterly or north-easterly center. His reasoning seem to be that, since the symbolism of dawn and east is alien to Ife or indeed Yoruba religious life, the ritual must represent a relatively recent grafting of the idea of Ife as dynastic home, on to a more ancient practice directed to the real dynastic home in the east or north-east.

In fact, as further information now makes plain, Ryder’s interpretation of this ritual is misguided. To start with, if we turn to Dahomey, on the opposite margin of our region, we find much the same identification. Thus Maupoil, in his classic account of Dahomean religion, tells once more of a strong association of Ife with dawn and the east. He adds that although in this area the association is one that actually does correspond with geographical reality, in the minds of the people it is not so much a summary of geographical observation as a highly appropriate piece of symbolism. For Dahomeans, dawn and the east are in this context first and foremost symbols of certain admired attributes of Ife.* Again, several scholars have noticed, there is an epithet widely current in our region which praises the city as: “Ife, creator of the world, whence come the dawn”.* Far from being something isolated and alien, then, this symbolic association of Ife with dawn and the east is something highly characteristic of the region.

Had Ryder known of this background to the Oba’s dawn prayers, he would surely have drawn somewhat different conclusions ... And had he taken this into account, he would surely have been less enthusiastic about his “look anywhere but west” approach.

Further information has also cast doubt on the iconographic arguments with which Ryder buttresses his case. Thus we now have several examples of the Maltese-cross symbols on terra-cotta materials excavated at Ife.* And the presence of this symbol in the city’s archaeological deposits vitiates the argument [with which Ryder buttresses his case], ... Again, we now have several examples of the “cat’s-whisker” facial mark on terra-cotta heads excavated at “classical” Ife sites. And the presence of this mark vitiates yet another argument.* ... Oddly, he himself acknowledges in a footnote the existence of one “cat’s whisker” head excavated at Ife. But rather than allow it cast doubt on his argument, he treats it as the exception that proves the rule. With discovery of several such pieces, however, such special pleading, already dubious, becomes totally unacceptable.

Nor are the Maltese cross and the “cat’s-whisker” the only Bini motifs for which Ife counterparts have been established over the past few years. On the contrary, recent excavations at Ife have revealed a whole series of motifs previously thought to be peculiar to Benin.*

Along with the new iconographic findings, we have also acquired an impressive series of dates. Application of carbon-14 and thermoluminescience [sic] techniques to excavated materials has enabled us to assign approximate absolute dates to several major Ife settlement levels and to the terra-cotta and brass works associated with them. Dates for terra-cotta pieces range from c. A.D. 1000 onward; whilst dates for brass pieces range from c. A.D. 1275 to c. A.D. 1440. Application of these techniques to materials from Owo and Benin has also enabled us to assign dates to some of the ”classical” terra-cotta and brass-work associated with these cities. Significantly, the Owo and Benin date-series begin slightly later than their Ife counterparts. One particularly interesting Benin date is for a brass piece previously assessed by Fagg and Dark as early on the ground of its Ife-type naturalism. Thermoluminescence tests give it a date of c. AD. 1420 — just what it should be on the premises adopted by these authors.*

Taken together, the new iconographic and dating discoveries would seem to have swung the balance of evidence back in favour of the consensual thesis of a “classical” political and artistic tradition which originated in Ife and subsequently spread to Benin.”

~ Robin Horton, “Ancient Ife: A Reassessment”, Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol. 9, No. 4 (June 1979), pp. 85-87.
.
.
.
(2) On the overall, the decisive evidence which conclusively demolishes Ryder’s hypothesis (and other hypotheses like his) is the archaeological find of a bronze figure of the then Ooni of Ife which was excavated from the palace of Benin Kingdom and dated to c. A.D. 1300.

I have elaborated significantly on this particular find in my foregoing comment, as to how it conclusively establishes the early imperial domination of Benin Kingdom by the sacred and ancient Kingdom of Ife

Williams, following Ryder, starts by pointing out that the much-cited
oral tradition claiming an Ife origin for Benin figurative brass work is
counter-weighted by other (and possibly earlier) traditions to the effect
that the techniques and style were brought by "a white man from over the
sea" or by "the Igbon". He also points out that attempts at independent
corroboration of the oral tradition by comparative stylistic analysis have
been based on faulty logic. Thus scholars such as Fagg and Dark have
noted that Benin figurative brass work shows a spectrum of styles ranging
from an Ife-like naturalism, through various degrees of semi -naturalism,
to a stylised abstraction. They have then gone on to correlate successive
parts of this spectrum with successive temporal periods, taking the most
Ife-like naturalism as representative of the earliest period, the various semi-
naturalisms as representative of various later periods, and the stylised
abstraction as representative of a yet later period. Having asserted this
correlation, they have gone on to take it as further evidence for the Ife
origin of the Benin casting tradition. As Williams says, however, the jump
from style sequence to time-sequence is illegitimate, and so, therefore, is
the entire argument that depends on it.2 0
Having weighed in with this critique of the art -historical orthodoxy,
Williams goes on to show some impressive differences of technique as
between the Ife and Benin brass-casters.
First of all, there was a marked difference in the preparation of the clay
used for making cores and moulds. Ife smiths used clay with a small
charcoal admixture. Benin smiths used clay with a large animal dung
mixture.
Second, there was a difference in the way the cores were built up. Ife
smiths used simple iron spikes on which to build their cores, or did without
reinforcement altogether. Benin smiths used complex branching
armatures as skeletons for their figures.
19. Williams, D. Icon and Image, London 1974.
20. Williams, op. cit., pp. 136-144.
This content downloaded from


Continuation


Ancient If e: A Reassessment 77
Thirdly, there was a difference in the way the cores were held fixed
relative to the moulds. Ife smiths used clay bridges to join cores to moulds.
Benin smiths used iron stays.
On the basis of these differences, Williams argues that the Benin
tradition was almost certainly not derived from Ife in the first instance,
and that its subsequent development also owed little or nothing to Ife.
Williams follows up his critique with a challenging alternative view of
the development of art (and culture generally) in this part of the Guinea
Forest. Such development, he suggests, was the outcom


This was from the same refrence TAO11 gave me



Etinosa1234, AreaFada2, ghostwon, prolog, samuk valirex


https://www.jstor.org/journal/jhistsocnige

gregyboy:
Williams, following Ryder, starts by pointing out that the much-cited
oral tradition claiming an Ife origin for Benin figurative brass work is
counter-weighted by other (and possibly earlier) traditions to the effect
that the techniques and style were brought by "a white man from over the
sea" or by "the Igbon". He also points out that attempts at independent
corroboration of the oral tradition by comparative stylistic analysis have
been based on faulty logic. Thus scholars such as Fagg and Dark have
noted that Benin figurative brass work shows a spectrum of styles ranging
from an Ife-like naturalism, through various degrees of semi -naturalism,
to a stylised abstraction. They have then gone on to correlate successive
parts of this spectrum with successive temporal periods, taking the most
Ife-like naturalism as representative of the earliest period, the various semi-
naturalisms as representative of various later periods, and the stylised
abstraction as representative of a yet later period. Having asserted this
correlation, they have gone on to take it as further evidence for the Ife
origin of the Benin casting tradition. As Williams says, however, the jump
from style sequence to time-sequence is illegitimate, and so, therefore, is
the entire argument that depends on it.2 0
Having weighed in with this critique of the art -historical orthodoxy,
Williams goes on to show some impressive differences of technique as
between the Ife and Benin brass-casters.
First of all, there was a marked difference in the preparation of the clay
used for making cores and moulds. Ife smiths used clay with a small
charcoal admixture. Benin smiths used clay with a large animal dung
mixture.
Second, there was a difference in the way the cores were built up. Ife
smiths used simple iron spikes on which to build their cores, or did without
reinforcement altogether. Benin smiths used complex branching
armatures as skeletons for their figures.
19. Williams, D. Icon and Image, London 1974.
20. Williams, op. cit., pp. 136-144.
This content downloaded from


Continuation


Ancient If e: A Reassessment 77
Thirdly, there was a difference in the way the cores were held fixed
relative to the moulds. Ife smiths used clay bridges to join cores to moulds.
Benin smiths used iron stays.
On the basis of these differences, Williams argues that the Benin
tradition was almost certainly not derived from Ife in the first instance,
and that its subsequent development also owed little or nothing to Ife.
Williams follows up his critique with a challenging alternative view of
the development of art (and culture generally) in this part of the Guinea
Forest. Such development, he suggests, was the outcom


This was from the same refrence TAO11 gave me



Etinosa1234, AreaFada2, ghostwon, prolog, samuk valirex


https://www.jstor.org/journal/jhistsocnige

It is only an Edo dullard like you who will debunk himself without even realizing it because his eyes are already covered in hot tears..

The paper you’re citing (and comment you’re quoting) is ironically nothing more than a devastating refutation to both William's and Ryder's separate hypothesis.

I wouldn’t expect an illiterate to know this. Robin Horton devastatingly debunked Ryder and William beyond recognition, and then concluded by upholding the imperial domination of Benin Kingdom by Ife.

Ntor!

In case you were blind earlier from being soaked in your tears, here you go again:

“Curiously, Ryder, in pursuing his argument, does so in full awareness of a fact which one might have expected to moderate his enthusiasm for it. Here, I refer to the ritual in which the Oba of Benin addresses prayers to his forefathers at Ife through an eastward facing window at dawn, thus making an identification (albeit a symbolic one) between Ife and the east.* Far from sounding a note of caution in the face of this fact, he regards it as yet further evidence that the original home of the Eweka dynasty was not Ife but some more easterly or north-easterly center. His reasoning seem to be that, since the symbolism of dawn and east is alien to Ife or indeed Yoruba religious life, the ritual must represent a relatively recent grafting of the idea of Ife as dynastic home, on to a more ancient practice directed to the real dynastic home in the east or north-east.

In fact, as further information now makes plain, Ryder’s interpretation of this ritual is misguided. To start with, if we turn to Dahomey, on the opposite margin of our region, we find much the same identification. Thus Maupoil, in his classic account of Dahomean religion, tells once more of a strong association of Ife with dawn and the east. He adds that although in this area the association is one that actually does correspond with geographical reality, in the minds of the people it is not so much a summary of geographical observation as a highly appropriate piece of symbolism. For Dahomeans, dawn and the east are in this context first and foremost symbols of certain admired attributes of Ife.* Again, several scholars have noticed, there is an epithet widely current in our region which praises the city as: “Ife, creator of the world, whence come the dawn”.* Far from being something isolated and alien, then, this symbolic association of Ife with dawn and the east is something highly characteristic of the region.

Had Ryder known of this background to the Oba’s dawn prayers, he would surely have drawn somewhat different conclusions ... And had he taken this into account, he would surely have been less enthusiastic about his “look anywhere but west” approach.

Further information has also cast doubt on the iconographic arguments with which Ryder buttresses his case. Thus we now have several examples of the Maltese-cross symbols on terra-cotta materials excavated at Ife.* And the presence of this symbol in the city’s archaeological deposits vitiates the argument [with which Ryder buttresses his case], ... Again, we now have several examples of the “cat’s-whisker” facial mark on terra-cotta heads excavated at “classical” Ife sites. And the presence of this mark vitiates yet another argument.* ... Oddly, he himself acknowledges in a footnote the existence of one “cat’s whisker” head excavated at Ife. But rather than allow it cast doubt on his argument, he treats it as the exception that proves the rule. With discovery of several such pieces, however, such special pleading, already dubious, becomes totally unacceptable.

Nor are the Maltese cross and the “cat’s-whisker” the only Bini motifs for which Ife counterparts have been established over the past few years. On the contrary, recent excavations at Ife have revealed a whole series of motifs previously thought to be peculiar to Benin.*

Along with the new iconographic findings, we have also acquired an impressive series of dates. Application of carbon-14 and thermoluminescience [sic] techniques to excavated materials has enabled us to assign approximate absolute dates to several major Ife settlement levels and to the terra-cotta and brass works associated with them. Dates for terra-cotta pieces range from c. A.D. 1000 onward; whilst dates for brass pieces range from c. A.D. 1275 to c. A.D. 1440. Application of these techniques to materials from Owo and Benin has also enabled us to assign dates to some of the ”classical” terra-cotta and brass-work associated with these cities. Significantly, the Owo and Benin date-series begin slightly later than their Ife counterparts. One particularly interesting Benin date is for a brass piece previously assessed by Fagg and Dark as early on the ground of its Ife-type naturalism. Thermoluminescence tests give it a date of c. AD. 1420 — just what it should be on the premises adopted by these authors.*

Taken together, the new iconographic and dating discoveries would seem to have swung the balance of evidence back in favour of the consensual thesis of a “classical” political and artistic tradition which originated in Ife and subsequently spread to Benin.”

~ Robin Horton, “Ancient Ife: A Reassessment”, Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol. 9, No. 4 (June 1979), pp. 85-87.

gregyboy:
Williams, following Ryder, starts by pointing out that the much-cited
oral tradition claiming an Ife origin for Benin figurative brass work is
counter-weighted by other (and possibly earlier) traditions to the effect
that the techniques and style were brought by "a white man from over the
sea" or by "the Igbon". He also points out that attempts at independent
corroboration of the oral tradition by comparative stylistic analysis have
been based on faulty logic. Thus scholars such as Fagg and Dark have
noted that Benin figurative brass work shows a spectrum of styles ranging
from an Ife-like naturalism, through various degrees of semi -naturalism,
to a stylised abstraction. They have then gone on to correlate successive
parts of this spectrum with successive temporal periods, taking the most
Ife-like naturalism as representative of the earliest period, the various semi-
naturalisms as representative of various later periods, and the stylised
abstraction as representative of a yet later period. Having asserted this
correlation, they have gone on to take it as further evidence for the Ife
origin of the Benin casting tradition. As Williams says, however, the jump
from style sequence to time-sequence is illegitimate, and so, therefore, is
the entire argument that depends on it.2 0
Having weighed in with this critique of the art -historical orthodoxy,
Williams goes on to show some impressive differences of technique as
between the Ife and Benin brass-casters.
First of all, there was a marked difference in the preparation of the clay
used for making cores and moulds. Ife smiths used clay with a small
charcoal admixture. Benin smiths used clay with a large animal dung
mixture.
Second, there was a difference in the way the cores were built up. Ife
smiths used simple iron spikes on which to build their cores, or did without
reinforcement altogether. Benin smiths used complex branching
armatures as skeletons for their figures.
19. Williams, D. Icon and Image, London 1974.
20. Williams, op. cit., pp. 136-144.
This content downloaded from


Continuation


Ancient If e: A Reassessment 77
Thirdly, there was a difference in the way the cores were held fixed
relative to the moulds. Ife smiths used clay bridges to join cores to moulds.
Benin smiths used iron stays.
On the basis of these differences, Williams argues that the Benin
tradition was almost certainly not derived from Ife in the first instance,
and that its subsequent development also owed little or nothing to Ife.
Williams follows up his critique with a challenging alternative view of
the development of art (and culture generally) in this part of the Guinea
Forest. Such development, he suggests, was the outcom


This was from the same refrence TAO11 gave me

Etinosa1234, AreaFada2, ghostwon, prolog, samuk valirex

https://www.jstor.org/journal/jhistsocnige

And as for Williams whose hypothesis is particularly one of a non-Ife origin for the Benin artworks, Robin Horton refutes him as follows:

"This is not to say that some of the facts to which Williams in particular has drawn attention pose no difficulties for the consensualists. But it is to say that the difficulties are no longer insuperable. Indeed, I myself can think of at least one way in which one might plausibly reconcile the undeniable technical differences between the Ife and Benin brass traditions with the consensual postulate of Ife inspiration of the Benin work. Thus one can start by supposing that when the Ife brass-casters went to Benin, they encountered an already flourishing terra-cotta or mud-sculpture tradition, in which considerable quantities of dung were mixed with the moulding clay, and in which complex armatures were used to hold large figures together. Given the dependence of brass-casting on clay work, the in-coming Ife technique might well, in such circumstances, have been grafted on to the indigenous Benin terra-cotta or mud technique to produce a new tradition. Such a tradition would have been distinct in technique from both its sources, but would also have owed something to both.* Other ways of reconciling the new facts with the earlier orthodoxy may occur to the interested reader.

As regards the alternative interpretations offered by Ryder and Williams, the recent evidence makes these look decidedly improbable. By-passing Ife and looking to the Benin confederacy, Jukun confederacy or Idah as possible homes of the Ogane now seems far-fetched, to say the least. By-passing Ife and looking to sixteenth-century Portuguese craftsmen for the origin of the Benin brass tradition would now be nothing short of perverse. ...

Summing up, I would say that Obayemi's critique, like the efforts of Ryder and Williams before him, has been rendered out of date by fresh information.”

~ Robin Horton, “Ancient Ife: A Reassessment”, Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol. 9, No. 4 (June 1979), pp. 87-90


In conclusion then, it is only an Edo dullard like you who will debunk himself (by quoting from a work specifically written for that purpose) without even realizing it because his eyes are already covered in hot tears.

Keraxes:

Ugly fool. Omo mashanfani from ugly foolish oba of Benin lineage

I'm done talking to you mugu. Anyway, where do you live in Lagos? What do you do, I want to link you up....

BornRicch:


I'm done talking to you mugu. Anyway, where do you live in Lagos? What do you do, I want to link you up....

Oloriburuku send me your number

Keraxes:

Oloriburuku send me your number

Yoruba man and insult 5/6
No, I don't send my number to people online. Where do you live in Lagos or nah Ibadan you dey?

BornRicch:


Yoruba man and insult 5/6
No, I don't send my number to people online. Where do you live in Lagos or nah Ibadan you dey?

Werey send me your number now or else I’ll trace you myself elenu shipoti

RedboneSmith:


Uh... No.

It was the Ijaw.

Hmm. What year did the Europeans first come in contact with the Ijaw?

I know Europeans visited Benin in the early 1480s. They visited Benin when (Ewuare I) was on the throne.
So really one should expect Edo people to fall into the trend of adopting European surnames.

And even attire-wise, Edo people still maintain their traditional attires in their traditional events, but Ijaws adopted European bowler hats as a part of their traditional attire. Today, most people no longer know what the original traditional Ijaw headgear looks like. I suspect it could be the same as Igbos and Ibibios wear

Nairaland, one of the most interesting forum I always read and learn from. Earlier in the thread, I said they should focus on the topic and stop arguing about stuffs that are not related to it, but the likes of Gregboy and Areafada will always want to show their little knowledge by starting up the Yoruba vs Benin supremacy or Anioma and their Igbo brothers, unfortunately for them TAO11 has schooled them so much, even in the topic Gregboy started up; eg '' Ayelala Is A Benin Worship Dont Mind The Yorubas For Claiming It '' .... lol . Read through that topic and you will laugh at the ignorance of Gregboy.. As for Areafada, when he sees anything Igbo, he begins to shiver. He will always want to lump 90% of Anioma to Benin, instead of to their brothers in the East.

Gregboy and Areafada, be proud of your Edo heritage, trying to claim superiority over the Yorubas or numbers from Anioma will not work.

Udo.

gregyboy:


You correcting you're also wrong because it was the benin

How did they get to Benin if they didn't pass through warri? they did trade with the Itsekiris

KingWarri:

How did they get to Benin if they didn't pass through warri?
they did trade with the Itsekiris

Bana benin were at shores of the rivers when Portuguese came probably after trade began with benin and Portugal that the rest tribe came closer to the coast to start trading

The trade attracted the niger deltans to the coast

gregyboy:





Bana benin were at shores of the rivers when Portuguese came probably after trade began with benin and Portugal that the rest tribe came closer to the coast to start trading

The trade attracted the niger deltans to the coast

The Benin where never at shores. That's a false information about my history.
The urhobos, Isokos and Itsekiris migrated at different times from the Benin kingdom to the present day Delta State. That make them to become the first inhabitants only second to the ijaws

EdmundChidera:
You could have said ijaw tribes because Rivers state indigenes mostly use Igbo names.

Rivers state has different tribes like Kalabari, Ogoni, Andoni, Ikwerre and more. Only one tribe uses Igbo names and that is the Ikwerre tribe

BeeAll1:


Rivers state has different tribes like Kalabari, Ogoni, Andoni, Ikwerre and more. Only one tribe uses Igbo names and that is the Ikwerre tribe

Not true.

Ikwerre, Etche, Ogba, Ekpeye, Ndoni, Egbema, the Asa/Ndoki people in Oyigbo LGA. All these 'tribes' use Igbo names.

Which tribe are you

BeeAll1:


Rivers state has different tribes like Kalabari, Ogoni, Andoni, Ikwerre and more. Only one tribe uses Igbo names and that is the Ikwerre tribe

Keraxes:

Werey send me your number now or else I’ll trace you myself elenu shipoti

lol .... I want help your life I know say you're a hungry Yoruba man from Ibadan...

TAO11:


And as for Williams whose hypothesis is particularly one of a non-Ife origin for the Benin artworks, Robin Horton refutes him as follows:

"This is not to say that some of the facts to which Williams in particular has drawn attention pose no difficulties for the consensualists. But it is to say that the difficulties are no longer insuperable. Indeed, I myself can think of at least one way in which one might plausibly reconcile the undeniable technical differences between the Ife and Benin brass traditions with the consensual postulate of Ife inspiration of the Benin work. Thus one can start by supposing that when the Ife brass-casters went to Benin, they encountered an already flourishing terra-cotta or mud-sculpture tradition, in which considerable quantities of dung were mixed with the moulding clay, and in which complex armatures were used to hold large figures together. Given the dependence of brass-casting on clay work, the in-coming Ife technique might well, in such circumstances, have been grafted on to the indigenous Benin terra-cotta or mud technique to produce a new tradition. Such a tradition would have been distinct in technique from both its sources, but would also have owed something to both.* Other ways of reconciling the new facts with the earlier orthodoxy may occur to the interested reader.

As regards the alternative interpretations offered by Ryder and Williams, the recent evidence makes these look decidedly improbable. By-passing Ife and looking to the Benin confederacy, Jukun confederacy or Idah as possible homes of the Ogane now seems far-fetched, to say the least. By-passing Ife and looking to sixteenth-century Portuguese craftsmen for the origin of the Benin brass tradition would now be nothing short of perverse. ...

Summing up, I would say that Obayemi's critique, like the efforts of Ryder and Williams before him, has been rendered out of date by fresh information.”

~ Robin Horton, “Ancient Ife: A Reassessment”, Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol. 9, No. 4 (June 1979), pp. 87-90


In conclusion then, it is only an Edo dullard like you who will debunk himself (by quoting from a work specifically written for that purpose) without even realizing it because his eyes are already covered in hot tears.

And the works of babatunde lawal that came later after Robbins rubbish statement


gomojam
DonCandido
Amujale
macof
Sewgon79
lx3as
nisai
2fine2fast
Aphrygian
Olu317
Obalufon
geosegun
Ofunwa111


RedboneSmith

gregyboy:
And the works of babatunde lawal that came later after Robbins rubbish statement


gomojam
DonCandido
Amujale
macof
Sewgon79
lx3as
nisai
2fine2fast
Aphrygian
Olu317
Obalufon
geosegun
Ofunwa111
RedboneSmith

You just keep shooting yourself in the head due to blind bigotry.

Sorry I understand why you feel miserable. I may actually feel worse if it was I who was at the Bini/receiving end of the heat.


Having said that, Babatunde Lawal could not possibly have addressed any of the later archaeological evidence adduced by Robin Horton even if he was a magician. You know why?:

He couldn’t possibly do that because he (Babatunde Lawal was writing in 1977 following in Williams’ 1974 footstep); while Robin Horton on the other hand was writing in 1979 based on new evidence that wasn’t available at the time.

So, the actual key question for you is to show me HOW (not even WHERE here) B. Lawal could possibly have addressed those new evidence.

Like I have expected, your eyes were covered by an enormous flood of tears.

Let the tears keep flooding!

TAO11:
You just keep shooting yourself in the head due to blind bigotry.

Sorry I understand why you feel miserable. I may actually feel worse if it was I who was at the Bini/receiving end of the heat.


Having said that, Babatunde Lawal could not possibly have addressed any of the later archaeological evidence adduced by Robin Horton even if he was a magician. You know why?:

He couldn’t possibly do that because he (Babatunde Lawal was writing in 1977 following in Williams’ 1974 footstep); while Robin Horton on the other hand was writing in 1979 based on new evidence that wasn’t available at the time.

So, the actual key question for you is to show me HOW (not even WHERE here) B. Lawal could possibly have addressed those new evidence.

Like I have expected, your eyes were covered by an enormous flood of tears.

Let the tears keep flooding!

My friend what was the new evidence

gregyboy:
My friend what was the new evidence

Thank you for proving that you never read what you always spend you time and energy replying to.

It actually makes you look like the mo.ron that you are.

Now go back and carefully read every citation of Robin Horton which I have tried to educate you with.

TAO11:
Thank you for proving that you never read what you always spend you time and energy replying to.

It actually makes you look like the mo.ron that you are.

Now go back and carefully read every citation of Robin Horton which I have tried to educate you with.

I want you to point out yourself so when the oviation is loud you wont be having any excuse

So please point it out yourself dont be scared

gregyboy:
[s]I want you to point out yourself so when the oviation is loud you wont be having any excuseSo please point it out yourself dont be scared[/s]

Point out what was posted to you several times all over your own threads? May be you should give me your Nairaland password then?

You must be truly convinced yourself that you’re a chronic dullard. Read, dullard!

I spit on your empty skull!