haywhy2k1:

Esther was not a leader neither Deborah. the later was just a prophetess which is quite different from a priest.

I pressume you interpret a "prophetess" (and "prophet" as merely errand girls, since only a "priest" is a leader, not so?

Please, I beg of you: go and read the Bible on Esther and Deborah - and then come back and tell us that they were indeed not LEADERS in their day.

I'm waiting.

pilgrim.1:


I'm waiting.

Peresumably to quote this

1 Corinthians 14:34 - Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says

Those who mis-quote corinthians do not even take into consideration what were the perculiar characteristics of the church then and what particularly led to that instruction. Who looses out, you or God? Next time dont walk out when you notice a woman is to minister. The great ones can spoil you with much annointing and u will understand God more.

The post was in response to Pilgrim.1. Who claims that NT references to the OT law are applicable to NTC and at once proclaims women are permitted to teach in a church setting, even in the presence of suitably qualified male elders.

Oya Pilly what sayest thou?

TV01:

The post was in response to Pilgrim.1. Who claims that NT references to the OT law are applicable to NTC and at once proclaims women are permitted to teach in a church setting, even in the presence of suitably qualified male elders.

Just for the record: before alleging anything against pilgrim.1, check carefully that you're not misquoting her. Thank you.

TV01:

Oya Pilly what sayest thou?

Simple.

Just go back and read how I debated the issues surrounding that verse and fault them. Start from here! 

pilgrim.1:

Just for the record: before alleging anything against pilgrim.1, check carefully that you're not misquoting her. Thank you.

Yes ma !

pilgrim.1:

Simple.

Just go back and read how I debated the issues surrounding that verse and fault them. Start from here! 

Oh yes, I forget how you wholly wrenched the term "presbuteros" out of it's contextual setting, re-engineered it to mean "church elder" in all instances, and then co-opted it to buttress your glaringly wrong position.

If I remember rightly you also redefined "lead" to mean "minister" and hence "care"? Or perhaps you missed the second hurdle entirely. Upshot was as "care" = "lead" women could therefore lead.

Real upshot is that in the wierd and wonderful world of those who subscribe to C&C theology, re-engineering, re-defining and mis-contextualising, means anything can be changed to fit your personal bias and pushed as gospel truth.

O ma se o!

God bless
TV

TV01,

TV01:

Oh yes, I forget how you wholly wrenched the term "presbuteros" out of it's contextual setting, re-engineered it to mean "church elder" in all instances, and then co-opted it to buttress your glaringly wrong position.

If I remember rightly you also redefined "lead" to mean "minister" and hence "care"? Or perhaps you missed the second hurdle entirely. Upshot was as "care" = "lead" women could therefore lead.

Real upshot is that in the wierd and wonderful world of those who subscribe to C&C theology, re-engineering, re-defining and mis-contextualising, means anything can be changed to fit your personal bias and pushed as gospel truth.

O ma se o!

First, trying to allege that I wrenched the terms I discussed in detail to buttress your false allegation only demonstrates your duplicity.

Second, if you had any grasp at all of the WORD of God, you could easily have shown your readers HOW and WHY my discussions were flawed, instead of scooting away to now come back making silly illiterate remarks.

If you've got anything to share, do so simply. If you're still as empty as when you first began (even though I kept my fingers crossed), save the rest before you cause further damage to your utility-grade scholarship.

Regards.

TV01:

Peresumably to quote this

1 Corinthians 14:34 - Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says

Paul even mentioned that the same standard was what God established even in ancient Israel. The standard was one from creation

And divine standards do not change, Jesus maintained that same standard in chosing those who would serve as overseers in the congregation and so did the early apostles, but the gospel of Pilgrim obviously disagrees and wants the bible to say only the things she wants to hear.

She does not want to hear that God fearing women who walked with Jesus and who were in the First century understood what the will of God was for women in his arraingment  and complied with it and never aggitated against it.

She does not want to hear that Paul revealed God's will when he said on different occasions that in no Congregation of TRUE worshippers of God would a woman ever exercise authority over a man.
She wants to hear the gospel of pilgrim and claim that Deborah relating God's will to a man who now lead an expedition was support to her point . She now claims that Presbuteros (after confirming the word can be used to refer to older people or people in position, or infact many other uses) also always refered to Women Overseers  .

Why i ended my participation in this debate was clear. This was not a secular debate. If you claim to use the bible as your standard, stick to it even when you don't agree with certain things

Sis Pilgrim was only intrested in hearing what she wanted to hear. (Godly subjection however works differently and the First Century Christians understood this)

Hi sage,

sage:

but the gospel of Pilgrim obviously disagrees and wants the bible to say only the things she wants to hear.

It is only fair to ask you guys to be honest in your allegations. If you had anything at all to show that my discussions were flawed, how is it that neither you nor TV01 could show it so from the WORD as clearly as I've done to expose your assertive denials could not be defended from God's WORD?

sage:

She wants to hear the gospel of pilgrim and claim that Deborah relating God's will to a man who now lead an expedition was support to her point

Please sage, both you and TV01 made categorical statements that denied Scripture as showing that Deborah was a JUDGE in Israel - and after taking both of you to task on the issue, TV01 acknowledged he was wrong! I lose respect for dishonest chaps like you who can't simply acknowledge facts!

sage:

She now claims that Presbuteros (after confirming the word can be used to refer to older people or people in position, or infact many other uses) also always refered to Women Overseers

If you could show that they were NOT, please demonstrate the same. Sneaking in here to whip up cheap sympathy is not the best way to show how badly you took that hit.

sage:

Why i ended my participation in this debate was clear. This was not a secular debate. If you claim to use the bible as your standard, stick to it even when you don't agree with certain things

Why you ended your participlation is clear: you could not defend your several assertive denials against Scripture. And yes, I stuck to the same Scripture you denial several times.

sage:

Sis Pilgrim was only intrested in hearing what she wanted to hear. (Godly subjection however works differently and the First Century Christians understood this)

Pilgrim.1 was only interested in hearing from the WORD - not your fallacies that you could not defend.

My church is being led by my Pastor and his wife. They both lead but the overall leader is the Husband the G.O. I lov thir ministrations. Our mummy is a prophetess of God for that matter and backs her husbands minsitry like anything. What of that. ?

Gender can never be an issue in the house of God

i concur too.

gender is never an issue

When you see Women Preaching in Position of Spiritual Authority You Know that there is a Great Apostasy.
Any body can Preach but not Lead.

Did you see in Israel where a woman became king?

@ backslider,
Sorry that you may percieve I am following your posts around, but your assertions nowadays, I find them questionable.

Backslider:

When you see Women Preaching in Position of Spiritual Authority You Know that there is a Great Apostasy.
Any body can Preach but not Lead.

What is the essence of preaching in a position of ''Spiritual Authority'' and you cannot lead out what you are preaching to your listeners?

Backslider:

Did you see in Israel where a woman became king?

Is a Pastor/ Reverend/ Teacher. . . . . . = a King as well

A woman can teach, she can also lead too!

@MrPataki

Now let me tell you if you read the bible very well you will see that THE HIGHEST SPIRITUAL OFFICE IS THE PREACHER(consist priesthood kinghood and Citizen of the kingdom).

Reason? God gives credence to his words than any other. He that bears the word of God is God's general.

You can Preach and lead an individual but to lead a congregation is the problem. Now look.

1 Timothy 2 V
9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

11[b]Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.[/b]

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.


we see that 13 - 15 expounds a doctrine.

It looks as if you have forgotten where the Idea of The KING came from. The Children Of ISRAEL WANTED TO EMULATE OTHER KINGDOM.

IF YOU READ THE ACCOUNT YOU WILL SEE HOW GOD FELT (the people choose a king over God) Reminds you of Satan's Plan?.

Ok Point a Priest that was a Woman that stood before the Lord or went into the Hollies of Hollies.

Hmmm Hold it right there! Then you will say we are not under the Law. We are under the Law of Liberty. And the bible says that all these things are a Mirror of what was to happen in the New Testament.

A woman can Lead and teach small groups in congregation but not a leader of the Local Church this is APOSTASY. Where will her Husband be?

Go and ask Juanita and "Bishop" Weeks

God does not play tricks with us. There is a greater Job to behind a man.

1 Corinthians 14:
34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
KJV


1 Timothy 2:10-15

10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

1 Corinthians 14:

1 Timothy 2:10-15

Amen! And we have discussed those texts as well to show that LEADERSHIP in Church is not a MEN-ONLY exercise.

God that uses man could use a woman too, so loet us put gender aside and serve God, afterall, the first evangelist is a woman.

Well, God calls everyone and assigns them particular roles to fulfill in the Body of Christ.

Among those who are in LEADERSHIP, there are:

     * TEACHERS - and women are not called to take on this role in Church settings
     * ELDERS - men and women are TOGETHER called to fulfill this role
     * HELPS and GOVERNMENT - fulfilling various roles TOGETHER in teamwork

I think the problem is that many people have tried to limit the concept of LEADERSHIP to only one particular idea (usually the man who mounts a pulpit and preaches); but it is used for mature males and females called of God for the various roles He assigns them. Once we can get to grips with the basis of LEADERSHIP, perhaps all else will become clear.

I kept quiet all along to digest the various views to the thread I started. Have you noticed most female leaders had scandals? Remember Katherine Khrumna? Anointed as she was, she married someone's else husband. What about Juanita Bynum, who two months ago was brutalised by her husband? What of Paula White who left his husband to start another church? I could go and on but know I stand the risk of being called a chavunist. I have tremendous respect for women but realise they were not created to led. They can assist and do anything else but lead.

@shinystar,

shinystar:

I kept quiet all along to digest the various views to the thread I started. Have you noticed most female leaders had scandals? Remember Katherine Khrumna? Anointed as she was, she married someone's else husband.

Hmm. . that's a queer yardstick of measuring the leadership traits of people, whether men or women.

Actually, there are scores of men and women in positions of leadership among God's people who had questionable events in their lives, and the scandals are much more than relationships (include financial and political). Infact, if that criteria stands at all, then we should remember that the same thing could be said of "most" male leaders who had scandals. Ted Haggard [homosexuality and drug abuse]; several Catholic priests in sexual abuses; Rev. David Melendez [abuse of church funds]; Michael Thompson, pastor of The Tabernacle Church in Melbourne, Fla. [sexual offences]; and several others.

In this queer state of affairs, could we then say that "men" are a finer species at leadership positions because we never read of scandals about them?

What we should be grateful to God for is that there are leaders (men and women) among God's people who have done remarkably well in the various roles He assigned them.

shinystar:

What about Juanita Bynum, who two months ago was brutalised by her husband? What of Paula White who left his husband to start another church?

Sad as those events were, they do not therefore become the yardstick by which leadership gifts, equipping and capabilities are evaluated. There are more male ministers I know who have done worse things (and Juanita's husband brutalizing her is a signal failure on the part of the MAN!). These woman had their own problems - serious, serious problems, we know. But if we measure leadership by a scandal-coefficient, we would have removed ourselves from the subject and launched into something entirely out of this world!

@shinystar,

shinystar:

I could go and on but know I stand the risk of being called a chavunist. I have tremendous respect for women but realise they were not created to led. They can assist and do anything else but lead.

I think this is an unhealthy view of the subject (and NO, I wouldn't accuse you of chauvinism). We often assume that only men were committed with leadership tasks; but all things considered from God's WORD, we come to understand rather that God has various roles and spheres for both men and women to fulfill.

Genesis 5:2
"Male and female created he them; and blessed them,
and called their name Adam, in the day when they
were created."

Genesis 1:28
"And God blessed them, and God said unto them ,
Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth,
and subdue  it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing
that moveth upon the earth"

From the beginning, we find that God had blessed both men and women with leadership capabilities when He ordained for them to "subdue" the earth and "have dominion" over the host of the earth - and that's why He called them just one name: ADAM!

In the NT, as far as the Church is concerned, men are called to be in prominent leadership positions of teaching the whole gathered assembly; but together, BOTH men and women are called to various other leadership tasks among God's people. This is what we should try and investigate, so we may properly understand why the Bible presents these issues as follows:

* Men are TEACHERS of the whole Church when gathered
- and this is so as concerned with doctrinal matters for
the life of the Church (1 Cor. 14:34-35)

* Women are "TEACHERS of good things" (Tit. 2:3-5)
- and this is in view of domestic matters that build healthy
homes and families among the saints when women (wives)
absolutely need such training.

* Together, both men and women are called to leadership
in practical care in administrative and fellowship matters
which promote the life and ministry of the Body of Christ
(1 Cor. 12:28 - HELPS, GOVERNMENTS)

I hope that these simple outlines will help many of us begin to see the issues we have hitherto ignored in the Church. Many are used to particular slants that have become the traditionally received positions over the centuries of Church history. Some of us have never taken the time to go back to God's WORD and see what He has revealed there! We might be pleasantly surprised to see that there's much more than the limited ideas that we have received to hold - and it is about time that we begin to share them.

Beloved, let's spend some time together prayerfully looking into these matters and not be constantly contrained by the age-old traditional interpretations of what we have always assumed. If we're all open to balanced teaching from God's WORD, these matters should not unnerve anyone; but they should rather help us understand what God has called each one to fulfill in the Body of Christ.

Although I've tried to address these matters extensively before, I'd only like to bring out the essential points here in practical examples.

1. Men as TEACHERS who lead the Church in doctrinal matters - we have no problem digesting this as given lucidly in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35. It is clear that the setting precludes women from assuming such roles, especially for the following reasons:

(a) it is not permitted unto them to speak (i.e., to "teach"

(b) Church gatherings are not grounds for arguments

In dealing with doctrinal issues in a practical manner, God has reserved that role unto the men - especially as involving expounding the mind of God in a Church setting. It has nothing to do with women not being intelligent or able to grasp the intricacies of the divine counsel. Rather, it has everything to do with what God Himself had ordained in the economy of His divine arrangement (see 1 Cor. 11:3). Of course, these texts were not meant to abuse the other areas of leadership that God had called each one to fulfill - and that is why we need to examine all things instead of just stopping there.

2. As regards practical issues affecting relationships in family life, God verily wants us to know that He has called experienced women to be "TEACHERS of good things" (Titus 2:3-5), where they are valuable in reaching areas of the lives of women in such a way that the men cannot understand! We are not given to assume that such ministry occurs as in the case of male teachers who are called to the ministry of doctrinal matters affecting the life of the Church. However, not many believers have helped themselves to see this aspect of women in ministry - nevertheless, it is taught in God's WORD.

Now, what examples can we find of women engaged in this kind of ministry?

Titus 2:4 & 5 specifically mentioned that these experienced women equipped of God are to direct their ministry to younger women: "that they may teach the young women". The practical matters of this kind of ministry were outlined as well: they were domestic -

~ to be sober
~ to love their husbands
~ to love their children
~ to be discreet
~ to be chaste
~ keepers at home
~ to be good
~ obedient to their own husbands

Awesome! perhaps, one of the reasns why many believers have failed to see what is involved in these kinds of ministry for women is because they might not have taken the time to carefully understand the meaning of "teaching" as used in this passage. It is radically deeper in concept than merely instructing people; and it involves a [i]practical demonstration[i] of what is involved.

In any case, God in His wisdom desires that mature women should engage in this ministry to teach younger women the practical ways of living and affecting the home for His glory.

3. In the third instance, God desires to see a co-ordinated service in the Body of Christ where both the men and women are called to various leadership roles for the functional and practical aspects of the life of the Church. This is where we should seek to understand why the Bible uses the same Greek word [(presbuteros - πρεσβύτερος) - elders] in reference to those who co-ordinate the life and ministry of the churches.

Often, a lot of people make the mistake of failing to understand that teaching is just one type of leadership - and that is another reason why they conclude that women cannot be leaders! It is remarkable that the apostle did not confuse the gifts of "teaching" and "governments" or equate them to mean the same thing in 1 Corinthians 12:28. Let's remind ourselves of the distinctions he made between them:

"And God hath set some in the church,
first apostles,
secondarily prophets,
>> thirdly teachers,
after that miracles,
then gifts of healings,
>> helps,
>> governments,
diversities of tongues." (KJV)

Having mentioned teachers, he goes on to separately identify gifts and governments distinctly from the former by the use of "after that". His aim was not to confuse them, for they are not the same thing. Indeed, the word rendered "governments" in our common version (KJV) is alternatively rendered in other versions as 'leaders/(administrators)' [ALT]; 'administrations/(administrating)' [EMTV, ESV, ISV, NIV]; etc. The point is that these gifts are distinct and not confused to mean the same thing.

The examples we have in Scripture as to women fulfilling this role include Phoebe (or, 'Phebe'):

"I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant
of the church which is at Cenchrea: That ye receive her in
the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in
whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been
a succourer of many, and of myself also" (Romans 16:1-2).

The word "servant" in the text above being the Greek word "διάκονος" [diakonos] is simply "deacon" in our English translation. It is used in reference to those who serve in an official capacity as leaders in the Church (Php. 1:1). In the context of Rom. 16 cited for Phoebe, we can understand this usage in context of the explications offered in T[/b]hayer's [b]G[/b]reek [b]D[/b]efinitions helps us to understand:

[list]"a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use."[/list]

Of course, we see Phoebe fulfilling the leadership role of 'helps and governments' in 1 Cor. 12:28. The text in Rom. 16 does not suggest to us that she was a [b]teacher - considering that in verse 2 the apostle well contextualize what he meant in acknowledging that "she hath been a succourer of many".

The point in the foregoing is that the thrid instance of leadership type in the Church applies to administrative and fellowship matters in the Body of Christ - and that is not something that is the exclusive preserve of men. Both men and women are called to leadership postions in the Church in their various spheres of service - for leadership is not a question of either "MEN"-only or "WOMEN"-only. As far as the topic is concerned, it would help us have a balanced perspective on the subject so we don't keep supposing that leadership is all about a particular gender in the Church.

Cheers.

Pilgrim1

Please quote the full scripture.

3The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

4T[b]hat they may teach the young women to be sober[/b], to love their husbands, to love their children,

5To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not
blasphemed.

The truth is that the women are to teach the younger women.

To be the head pastor of the Church is Evil.

Hi @Backslider,

Backslider:

Pilgrim1

Please quote the full scripture.

- - -

The truth is that the women are to teach the younger women.

To be the head pastor of the Church is Evil.

(a) I have both discussed that Scripture extensively and quoted them in full in my previous entries.

(b) If people suppose that it is evil to be the "head pastor" of any Church, then it applies both ways: for men and women! You cannot make a man a "head pastor" - for no single man was called to be in that position in the Bible. If you find a verse that teaches it so, please share it with us.

Cheers.

I don't know where to start.

The head of the family was Adam even from the scripture you quoted you know God asked Adam first.

Isaiah 3

12As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

No one is saying that women are inferior or anything like that. The bible is just stating that women aren't suppose to be the head of the church (bishop, minister, pastor, etc). If you do go to a church that has a woman leading, just ask her what she thinks of it and what her interpretation is. Why would they leave "that" teaching out? The stupid question is the one that isn't asked.

@Backslider,

Backslider:



I don't know where to start.

The head of the family was Adam even from the scripture you quoted you know God asked Adam first.

Isaiah 3

12As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

Bros, that very verse from Isaiah has already been discussed and thrashed out. Many people have tried to use that verse against women in leadership; but my one question to them still remains unaswered:

Have MEN also not cause God's people to err and also destroyed their paths?

One should take time to understand that verse before trying to assume that WOMEN are the cause of every malady that men experience. There were credible women among God's people - and nobody has come round to show that those women were not called by God for the tasks He assigned them.

@analyt82,

analyt82:

No one is saying that women are inferior or anything like that. The bible is just stating that women aren't suppose to be the head of the church (bishop, minister, pastor, etc). If you do go to a church that has a woman leading, just ask her what she thinks of it and what her interpretation is. Why would they leave "that" teaching out? The stupid question is the one that isn't asked.

Very smply, where in the Scripture do we find A MAN leading or heading a Church?

Leadership in Church according to the Bible has always been in the PLURAL. No one single person was called to lead any Church alone, and the various ideas of "senior Pastor", "head Pastor", etc. . are merely a civil way of repeating the same error that non-Catholics decry against the RCC.