ekt_bear:

London, it probably costs a sh1tload of money to lay down a mile of track. Office buildings, residences, power lines, terrain, all sorts of nasty things you must avoid.

On the other hand, Yorubaland looks like this: http://i56.tinypic.com/acq2v9.png

So laying down each mile of track WILL be much cheaper than laying down a mile anywhere in the UK.

The UK is not the right country to compare. The US is. There are vaste swathes of undeveloped land in the US. Same in Yorubaland. In the UK, there isn't. So don't compare to UK.

Eku, these maps are only fanciful. It is not that straightforward.

ola olabiy:

Again, leave Lagos out of this, it has a rich/middle class populace. Osun doesn't!

Who will pay for such in Ila Orangun? We are just here creating an idea of Eldorado on Nairaland.

Dude, who cares? All we need is X number of people willing to pay. It may turn out that very few of them are from Osun or Ekiti. Maybe all those X people are only in Lagos or Ibadan. But as long as we have that #, the railroad is profitable.

That is ALL that matters.

(in practice of course, there will be huge benefits to everyone on the route, and all the states involved.)

ola olabiy:

Eku, these maps are only fanciful. It is not that straightforward.

My point is that rather than having to bulldoze someone's office building, apartment complex to build your railway, all you have to do is to clear some bush. So a mile in Yorubaland will cost much less than a mile in the UK.

@ola olabiy: Let me put it this way. Suppose a rich man builds a billion dollar mall or something right next to my town.

Now, will the poorest people in my town be able to shop there? No, they won't.

But who gives a damn? Think of all the job creation, increased traffic, etc that my town will benefit from being right next to something wonderful. The guy just spent $1 billion building the mall; presumably a lot of that is going to my townsmen who are working in construction.

My town also benefits from the roads the guy improved leading to his mall.

That is why I keep saying, wondering about whether Ekiti State indigenes can afford to ride this railroad isn't really the thing to do. The poor folk of the SW will benefit tremendously from this railway, even if they can never afford to ride it themselves.

I understand your concern, you are interested more in projects that immediately and directly benefit the poor like potable water, etc. But this is just as impactful, just in less obvious ways. And best of all, it won't cost the masses any money out of pocket to build. Just some land contributed by the state governments, and some small startup cash they loan to whoever is investing.

ekt_bear:

@ola olabiy: Let me put it this way. Suppose a rich man builds a billion dollar mall or something right next to my town.

Now, will the poorest people in my town be able to shop there? No, they won't.

But who gives a damn? Think of all the job creation, increased traffic, etc that my town will benefit from being right next to something wonderful. The guy just spent $1 billion building the mall; presumably a lot of that is going to my townsmen who are working in construction.

My town also benefits from the roads the guy improved leading to his mall.

That is why I keep saying, wondering about whether Ekiti State indigenes can afford to ride this railroad isn't really the thing to do. The poor folk of the SW will benefit tremendously from this railway, even if they can never afford to ride it themselves.

I understand your concern, you are interested more in projects that immediately and directly benefit the poor like potable water, etc. But this is just as impactful, just in less obvious ways. And best of all, it won't cost the masses any money out of pocket to build. Just some land contributed by the state governments, and some small startup cash they loan to whoever is investing.

I hope your ideas are feasible.

This is my dream too. God dey sha.

^-- Sorry if I was being harsh btw, I wasn't trying to insult or anything.

Just trying to explain why this is beneficial to everyone, in the SW and Nigeria in general. Some benefit more than others, but everyone is a winner.

Are we speaking of Cargo rail or commuter rail?

If you've been on the road between Lagos and most of the SW hinterland or even just on Lagos-Ore Road you w'ld have definitely noticed that we have a considerable amount of cargo traffic on those roads, rail transport can easily absorb those and free up whatever modest expansion we can manage on the road networks between our cities.

Those Dangote Cement trucks from Kogi/Kwara axis
The Agro produce trucks via M.belt/Ondo/Osun/Oyo axis

I think we can start with cargo first, definitely commuter rail will follow, I see so many companies willing to reduce transport cost, increase efficiency and cut time on those routes. We are talking about a route feeding products and raw materials to 15+million people in the Lagos Oyo Ogun area.

OAM4J:



And with constant development and GDP growth, I do not expect Osun and Ekiti to remain the way they are, look beyond 10 years Ola.

WORD.

GDP Growth.

2. Beyond 10 years!



Thank you.

ekt_bear:

^-- Sorry if I was being harsh btw, I wasn't trying to insult or anything.

Didn't see it that way. Nope!

Kilode?!:

Are we speaking of Cargo rail or commuter rail?

If you've been on the road between Lagos and most of the SW hinterland or even just on Lagos-Ore Road you w'ld have definitely noticed that we have a considerable amount of cargo traffic on those roads, rail transport can easily absorb those and free up whatever modest expansion we can manage on the road networks between our cities.

Those Dangote Cement trucks from Kogi/Kwara axis
The Agro produce trucks via M.belt/Ondo/Osun/Oyo axis

I think we can start with cargo first, definitely commuter rail will follow, I see so many companies willing to reduce transport cost, increase efficiency and cut time on those routes. We are talking about a route feeding products and raw materials to 15+million people in the Lagos Oyo Ogun area.

You are talking about that Dangote that will will jeopardize your efforts. Moreover, his trucks are bound for the north.

While w'ld Dangote want to stick to Truck transport for his materials If cargo rail is faster, safer and cheaper?

If you are speaking of FG I can understand, I recognize the drag effect of a silly but strong FG.

EX: Dangote gets products out of Lagos traffic quickly through cargo rail, deposits at Oyo or SW border warehouse for onward truck movement to North or east, same thing when he's bringing products or materials in from his factories outside the SW why would he work against that?

Except he's making extra money from all those trucks he uses/leases.

@Kilode: So according to these folks, you can use the same networks for cargo and commuter. I didn't know that at all; for some reason I thought they were separate networks.

Anyway, I'm starting to think that this railway must be #1 on the regional todo list. The SW leadership needs to start working hard towards this goal.

Can you imagine making the Ibadan-Lagos journey in about an hour? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acela_Express

Think about how having the same would be in the SW. It would be like an industrial revolution, lol.

I need to read more about this train stuff. It is very sexy.

Eku, if you can use same tracks for both cargo and passenger, then that is extra revenue stream then, I was just focusing on cargo, I'm worried about the cost though and how to sell that to PPP partners and the big IB's

Imagine living in Abeokuta and commuting to work in Lagos or Ibadan (or whatever town ends up being on the Lagos-Ibadan path.) Think about how quickly Abeokuta would develop.

Arrive at the train station in Abeokuta to catch the 7:30am train, get to your office in Lagos by 8:30am.

It would be wonderful.

Kilode?!:

While w'ld Dangote want to stick to Truck transport for his materials If cargo rail is faster, safer and cheaper?

If you are speaking of FG I can understand, I recognize the drag effect of a silly but strong FG.

EX: Dangote gets products out of Lagos traffic quickly through cargo rail, deposits at Oyo or SW border warehouse for onward truck movement to North or east, same thing when he's bringing products or materials in from his factories outside the SW why would he work against that?

Except he's making extra money from all those trucks he uses/leases.

Because Dangote is also into haulage biz, not just for his companies but for many other companies. So technically the rail project will be closing a line of his biz/investments.

Some people believe he is one of the people that influenced Yaradua to cancel the rail line project that obj started.

ekt_bear:

Imagine living in Abeokuta and commuting to work in Lagos or Ibadan (or whatever town ends up being on the Lagos-Ibadan path.) Think about how quickly Abeokuta would develop.

Arrive at the train station in Abeokuta to catch the 7:30am train, get to your office in Lagos by 8:30am.

It would be wonderful.

I may be wrong, but I think Ibadan to Lagos is just 1 hour 30mins by car on the terrible road we have, but that is without the Lagos traffic factor though.

Anyway, what this thread has just buttressed is the need for a weaker center with little control over every sector beyond regulation.

The Federal Government will have to be partnered with to get both access and even security for  some of these projects, I can imagine Credit Suisse reluctant or even unwilling to lend funds for a State or regional infrastructure project unless the FG guarantees a large chunk of the loan  

everybody wants a piece of our easy oil revenue

OAM4J:

Because Dangote is also into haulage biz, not just for his companies but for many other companies. So technically the rail project will be closing a line of his biz/investments.

Some people believe he is one of the people that influenced Yaradua to cancel the rail line project that obj started.

Very sad, but I'm not surprised at all.

We might need to fight Chicago style to break some entrenched business mafias in Nigeria

@Kilode: The Lagos light rail projects, they don't have a federal guarantee, do they?

Lekki toll road has some sort of guarantee from the Lagos State gov't tho (if I remember correctly.)

^^ I'm not sure, I'll have to confirm. I thought there was an FG guarantee actually, maybe i'm thinking of another project.

I Saw this link from a previous discussion about the Lekki project, I don't see anything about FG funding, but not sure if they got a guarantee from them.

The US$450m Lekki–Epe Expressway in Lagos is a real toll road with full market risk. Most of the initial 49km phase of the scheme, financed by this deal, involves upgrading the existing road, although there is also a 6km stretch of new road to be built also. The scheme is the first project finance real toll road in Sub-Saharan Africa.
Standard Bank Plc’s role in the landmark deal was as Lead Arranger, Underwriter, and largest lender to the project as well as the sole arranger of currency hedging. In addition Standard Bank of South Africa (Project Finance) acted as Co-financial Advisor to the project.
Funding for the project, which should take 3 years to complete, comes from the Lagos State which has invested Naira N5bn (US$42 million) in a 20-year mezzanine tranche. The African Development Bank provided N10bn (USD85 million) senior debt over 15 years and local bank lenders provided a 12-year note facility of N9.4bn (US$80 million).
The scheme is being developed by the Lekki Concession Company (LCC), made up of ARM, Africa Infrastructure Investment Fund (AIIF), local firm Laraure and contractor Hitech.  ARM, Rand Merchant Bank and Standard Bank advised the consortium.

http://corporateandinvestment.standardbank.co.za/sa/news_centre/news_centre.jsp?from=recent&mediaid=313

^-- Alright. Hopefully someone will tell us specifically what the guarantee looks like. I think I read it in a power point of some sort, but cannot find it just now.

Meanwhile, I'm hoping that this weekend I'll have time to get a better sense of the feasibility of rail in the SW. There is a ton of stuff online as well as this interesting looking book (http://www.amazon.com/New-Departures-Rethinking-Passenger-Twenty-First/dp/0813122112/).

If it looks like it is feasible, this is something we need to do more than chat about on Nairaland. . . we need to present it to the SW leadership and get it done. Oyo, Ogun and Lagos are all controlled by the same party. No reason we cannot bring this to life, if practical.

The prognosis looks good and worthy of pursuit but the leadership must be made to deliver. AD and UPN before her governed all the SW states at one time or the other. ACN is now doing same so it is not new. Nigerian politicians keep taking the led for a ride so the bolded needs be seriously pursued and leaders made to account for their stewardship not only in the SW but all over the Nation else all the euphoria will be  over nothing.

ekt_bear:

^-- Alright. Hopefully someone will tell us specifically what the guarantee looks like. I think I read it in a power point of some sort, but cannot find it just now.

Meanwhile, I'm hoping that this weekend I'll have time to get a better sense of the feasibility of rail in the SW. There is a ton of stuff online as well as this interesting looking book (http://www.amazon.com/New-Departures-Rethinking-Passenger-Twenty-First/dp/0813122112/).

If it looks like it is feasible, this is something we need to do more than chat about on Nairaland. . . we need to present it to the SW leadership and get it done. Oyo, Ogun and Lagos are all controlled by the same party. No reason we cannot bring this to life, if practical.

Something else that needs to be tackled is revenue. The people are always complaining about the poor state of infrastructure, education, etc but are usually unwilling to pay for it. Most people have two or three sources of income but pay very little on their primary source (salary). Lagos is tackling this issue a bit but it must do more if it is going to be able to fund the lofty projects that are necessary for a place of its status.

The state governments must do the following
1. Raise the rate of tax for everyone and higher tax for high earners
2. Reduce the size of the underground economy. The underground economy is as large as 65-80% in most African societies. It is 45% in Greece
3. Introduce an entertainment tax. If people are going to spend huge amounts of money on frivolous things and parties, then they must pay a tax on goods and services associated with throwing huge parties and weddings.

A few comments:

1) The Europe/Japan/China-style high-speed rail (200+ miles/hour) doesn't seem to be economically viable. It seems to be way more expensive per mile than say ordinary rail, and it doesn't look as if you can use the same tracks for freight. Almost all of these high-speed rails seem to eat up lots of subsidies. See this World Bank report for more information: http://www-wds.worldbank.org/external/default/WDSContentServer/WDSP/IB/2010/07/26/000334955_20100726032714/Rendered/PDF/558560WP0Box341SR1v08121jul101final.pdf

2) However, I think the model that is being used in the Northeastern US might work. The tracks you use, you can also use for freight. As @naijababe said, perhaps you run freight at night at 60 or 80 miles/hour (or whatever speed uses the least amount of fuel/electricity), and then run your passenger rail during the day at 150 miles/hour. See here about the Northeastern Corridor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Corridor

3) I'm thinking that to start, you'd want to do Lagos->Abeokuta->Ibadan. Abeokuta to Ibadan is 45 miles or so. . . so a 20 minute train ride if going @ 150 miles/hour. Abeokuta to Lagos is another 47 miles or so, so another 20 minutes.

4) There are obviously a lot of interesting additional routes beyond this (Ibadan->Oyo->Ogbomosho->Ilorin), (Ibadan->Ife->Ado Ekiti->Lokoja->Abuja), but I guess that is further away in the future.

Anyway, a good friend of mine is into civil engineering, so I'll hopefully get some more precise #s and information.

Katsumoto:

Something else that needs to be tackled is revenue. The people are always complaining about the poor state of infrastructure, education, etc but are usually unwilling to pay for it. Most people have two or three sources of income but pay very little on their primary source (salary). Lagos is tackling this issue a bit but it must do more if it is going to be able to fund the lofty projects that are necessary for a place of its status.

The state governments must do the following
1. Raise the rate of tax for everyone and higher tax for high earners
2. Reduce the size of the underground economy. The underground economy is as large as 65-80% in most African societies. It is 45% in Greece
3. Introduce an entertainment tax. If people are going to spend huge amounts of money on frivolous things and parties, then they must pay a tax on goods and services associated with throwing huge parties and weddings.

I quite agree, sometimes taxes serve a more symbolic purpose beyond revenue generation, revenue is key though, but it will also bring the population closer to their government and force them to demand greater accountability.

But I wonder how we will administer income taxes for example when we have such poor databases, the informal sector is probably the largest one in the SW volume-wise, and we have little or no access to those right now, except they want to start with civil servant salaries.

Also, sales taxes might be easier to implement in the near term, it will be easier to get companies and service providers on board, much quickly than getting individual earners.

Which states currently tax in the SW (other than Lagos?)

Are there income taxes?
Property tax?
Additional sales tax on top of VAT?

What currently exists? And what do the federal laws permit?

I don't agree with entertainment taxes though, that sounds too social-engineeringish/puritanical to me

ekt_bear:

Which states currently tax in the SW (other than Lagos?)

Are there income taxes?
Property tax?
Additional sales tax on top of VAT?

What currently exists? And what do the federal laws permit?

I don't agree with entertainment taxes though, that sounds too social-engineering/puritanical to me

There are income taxes but they are very low; not up to 30%, even for millionaires.

The entertainment tax is necessary because throwing lavish parties/weddings increases exposure to crime which must be policed. The mindset of the people must change; they must be forced to pay for things that will impact their lives positively and less on onstentatious assets.

Does it make sense that expenditure on parties is larger than government budget on education and health. People either pay up or shut up. I don't have a problem with people throwing parties but they must be taxed through some kind of sales tax.

You want to rent canopies, pay for caterers, etc, then you must be ready to pay at least 20% tax.

Kilode?!:

I quite agree, sometimes taxes serve a more symbolic purpose beyond revenue generation, revenue is key though, but it will also bring the population closer to their government and force them to demand greater accountability.

But I wonder how we will administer income taxes for example when we have such poor databases, the informal sector is probably the largest one in the SW volume-wise, and we have little or no access to those right now, except they want to start with civil servant salaries.

Also, sales taxes might be easier to implement in the near term, it will be easier to get companies and service providers on board, much quickly than getting individual earners.

Setting up databases in all the states is going to be very easy. You just have to target services that everyone in a state requires. I agree on the accountability point; when people pay more in taxes, they demand more from their representatives. They will be less tolerant towards wasteful spending.

Katsumoto:

Something else that needs to be tackled is revenue. The people are always complaining about the poor state of infrastructure, education, etc but are usually unwilling to pay for it. Most people have two or three sources of income but pay very little on their primary source (salary). Lagos is tackling this issue a bit but it must do more if it is going to be able to fund the lofty projects that are necessary for a place of its status.

I agree.

The state governments must do the following
1. Raise the rate of tax for everyone and higher tax for high earner[/b]s

What do you have in mind? Should it be increased on a sliding scale?

You cant raise tax on lower class and middle class citizens without providing some sort of safety net, that is guaranteed, when they fall on hard times. This is not about infrastructures alone or education. It is about gaining the trust of the people and providing social security for them when they can no longer provide for themselves. So raising tax on everyone might backfire, even though the intention might be good.

3. Introduce an entertainment tax. If people are going to spend huge amounts of [b]money on frivolous things and parties, then they must pay a tax on goods and services associated with throwing huge parties and weddings.

If this is how you will sell it to the people, trust me you wont make any headway. Calling 'owambe' parties, frivolous is insulting, demeaning and culturally insensitive.  What else do you want to tax? Baby showers? office send-offs? Graduation ceremonies? Emotional euphoria? can you be more specific?

I don't know about income taxes outside Lagos, I can't recollect anyone talking About those. But they collect some property taxes in Nigeria, I think they are one time payments though, I can't remember anyone paying annual taxes on their property.

I believe we give all VAT to the FG. The FG share those out based on a formula, it is necessary to generate local taxes that will not go to the center at the end of the month, I know most Local Governments do that at the informal level, markets, car parks, bus stops e.t.c but they seem like unregulated tout infested collection rackets to me.

Few of these things are systemized, and that seems to be the big issue. Another is competency, frankly we have a poorly trained, grossly incompetent civil service across the board. I've been there, I've seen it, I have relatives there, we have a lot of work to do.

Katsumoto:

There are income taxes but they are very low; not up to 30%, even for millionaires.

OK.

The entertainment tax is necessary because throwing lavish parties/weddings increases exposure to crime which must be policed. The mindset of the people must change; they must be forced to pay for things that will impact their lives positively and less on onstentatious assets.

Does it make sense that expenditure on parties is larger than government budget on education and health. People either pay up or shut up. I don't have a problem with people throwing parties but they must be taxed through some kind of sales tax.

You want to rent canopies, pay for caterers, etc, then you must be ready to pay at least 20% tax.

Err, whatever happened to free will? Sure, charge more for the policing parties require, but people should be able to do whatever they want with their personal money   Taxing parties sounds fascist, or something

Setting up databases in all the states is going to be very easy. You just have to target services that everyone in a state requires.  I agree on the accountability point; when people pay more in taxes, they demand more from their representatives. They will be less tolerant towards wasteful spending.

We have state drivers licenses, yes? Why don't we have state ID cards too? That would help quite a bit for later organizing taxes.