budaatum:


To be honest with you, I don't think anything created the universe, or at least no one put forward sounds credible to me.

As I said, 13.8billion years is far too long ago for me to ignorantly 'think' anything credible about the start of the universe and I refuse to be that ignorant.

Don't forget to provide the evidence I asked for please.

Do you have evidence that nothing created the universe?

Pastafari:
Do you have evidence that nothing created the universe?

Did I claim to have any evidence either way? Is evidence not exactly what I am begging you for?

budaatum:


Did I claim to have any evidence either way? Is evidence not exactly what I am begging you for?

You claim that the universe could have started from nothing. We are equally making claims.
You simply provide evidence for why the universe could start from nothing, let's see how that refutes my claim.

Pastafari:
You claim that the universe could have started from nothing. We are equally making claims.
You simply provide evidence for why the universe could start from nothing, let's see how that refutes my claim.

I am not making any claim because I do not know if the universe started or if it has always been. I am simply asking for evidence of your 13.8billion years pasta claim so I can assess the data myself instead of having to ignorantly believe or not.

Please know that I have made no claim about the beginning of the universe except to state my doubts.

budaatum:


You don't need to be a Christian nor believe the Bible if you can read for yourself instead of letting others tell and interpret the book to you. And if you read it like a child with no preconceived indoctrination blinding you, which is how you read Aesop's Fables and Confucianism, with fresh eyes and no one preaching to you, you'd have gained understanding of your own instead of stumbling on interpretations and beliefs of the ignorant, because that "heaping, steaming pile of contradictions" is intended to provoke your brain into action.

Best thing is, it can do it without you knowing, if you read it that is, or if you're lazy like me, pay to have it read to you for free.

I have read the Bible, first of all. And frankly, no offence by the way, you have no idea what "preconceived" notions have or haven't been blinding me or any other person here while reading it. I, personally, read it as a kid and had never been to church then. So all those words above for the profound insight of "read the bible"?

Talk about preconceived and blinded.

Question: did you read the Koran like a child and did it provoke your brain into action as much as the bible? How about Avesta? The texts of all other religions? Which was the most action-provoking?

budaatum:


I am not making any claim because I do not know if the universe started or if it has always been. I am simply asking for evidence of your 13.8billion years pasta claim so I can assess the data myself instead of having to ignorantly believe or not.

Please know that I have made no claim about the beginning of the universe except to state my doubts.

Well, the Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe and its my theory unless someone can prove it otherwise.
I don't have to be necessarily right but no one knows unless I am proven otherwise.

KnownUnknown:







The most ironic part of it is that they don't understand the allegories. Even the ones who claim to "understand" and are devoid of "belief" don't understand the allegories. Atheists and some theists also have literal interpretations of the allegories and it follows that atheists find the stories absurd. To make matters worse, the few who understand the allegories but who are in positions of power in Christian or Judaic institutions will not explain the allegories because that will be tantamount to killing the goose that has been laying golden eggs for centuries.

Can I by justice or by crooked ways of deceit ascend a loftier tower which may be a fortress to me all my days?
-Pindar

I am almost certain that the principals of the Catholic Church (the MOTHER church of all you Christians) have asked themselves the above question multiple times over the centuries and their answer is always "why kill the sheep when you can continue fleecing the flock.

When you understand the allegories, they won't be able to sell you the cure for a disease that doesn't exist and you might even view them as the epitome of immorality.

The Bible is not overrated nor underrated. It’s a collection of impressive literature composed by some of the finest minds of those times.

You are assuming that the writers don't expect you to take the Bible literally


You are wrong


They call their statements the truth ( which means take it seriously and many people overrate it by taking it too seriously)

Pastafari:
Yes you are correct and that’s why you need to read the gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster for the truth

We shouldn't ask who created the universe


There's no way living things or things that can create non-abstract things existed before the universe since living things are things that don't precede the universe

We should be asking what became the universe_it has to be something else


It's impossible for no thing with a specific form to exist because no thing can exist in the absence something else alongside it

If it is possible for nothing literally to exist
Then it is impossible for anything to exist


Nothing cannot be true except anything is false

There has to be ageless indivisible particles or objects with specific forms in order for aging divisible particles or objects with specific forms to exist


If a scientist accidentally discovers any particle/object
Then he or she should consider it as what is either indivisible or not


Both the ageless indivisible objects and the aging divisible particles or objects have to be true or real in order for either to exist

No assumptions

There's no limit to what exists


Someone called otem once assumed that there's a limit/a beginning to what exists

Then he claimed to know


Such confusion is unnecessary


He will deny

His defenders will deny

They will call you names for opposing his claims

Triplechoice can testify

HellVictorinho:




We shouldn't ask who created the universe


There's no way living things or things that can create non-abstract things existed before the universe since living things are things that don't precede the universe

We should be asking what became the universe_it has to be something else


It's impossible for no thing with a specific form to exist because no thing can exist in the absence something else alongside it

If it is possible for nothing literally to exist
Then it is impossible for anything to exist


Nothing cannot be true except anything is false

There has to be ageless indivisible particles or objects with specific forms in order for aging divisible particles or objects with specific forms to exist


If a scientist accidentally discovers any particle/object
Then he or she should consider it as what is either indivisible or not


Both the ageless indivisible objects and the aging divisible particles or objects have to be true or real in order for either to exist

No assumptions

There's no limit to what exists


Someone called otem once assumed that there's a limit/a beginning to what exists

Then he claimed to know


Such confusion is unnecessary


He will deny

His defenders will deny

They will call you names for opposing his claims

Triplechoice can testify

All still boils down to the Flying Spaghetti Monster creating the universe.

sonmvayina:


Peace is the goal..

False


You are not the writer of the books

You cannot determine the intention of the writers by turning their statements upside down

In fact
The writers never intended peace because if they intended peace
They wouldn't have stated what has nothing to do with peace such as LOVE ALL YOUR NEIGHBORS including those YOU HAVE TO DEFEND YOURSELF AGAINST except YOU HATE YOURSELF


Every expression in those books doesn't support peace

Even where PEACE is mentioned

There's no reason why it should be ensured


The promises in those books are useless

If you also think Jesus said or meant something different from what is written in some cases_what that person once suggested,then you are just being pointless


You have to prove a Jesus that said Bla Bla Bla once existed before accusing people of not understanding what you are saying about what Jesus said except you admit to saying what nobody could have ever stated as a person called Jesus
or admit you are saying what nobody at all could have ever stated or admit to be saying what nobody to be taken seriously ever stated


The people(ALL the writers) that came up with Jesus existing as this or that never ALL said they were writing to ensure peace


That person you just quoted has confessed to turning the books upside down



It's of no use defending that person

The person calls it using your mind


Yeah

Use your head to turn it upside down



If you expect peace after turning it upside down
It shows you are a crook



There will never be peace

Nobody is a giver of peace so I don't think Dtruthspeaker should consider peace as what can be given to the world

Your peace doesn't mean the world has peace

Pastafari:
All still boils down to the Flying Spaghetti Monster creating the universe.

You are wrong

Tamaratonye1:

I have read the Bible, first of all. And frankly, no offence by the way, you have no idea what "preconceived" notions have or haven't been blinding me or any other person here while reading it. I, personally, read it as a kid and had never been to church then. So all those words above for the profound insight of "read the bible"?

Talk about preconceived and blinded.

Question: did you read the Koran like a child and did it provoke your brain into action as much as the bible? How about Avesta? The texts of all other religions? Which was the most action-provoking?

You are quoting someone that has confessed to turning the books upside down


You are wasting your time

Tamaratonye1:

So all those words above for the profound insight of "read the bible"?

Nice preconceived notion. But you are wrong.

The Bible is a rather big book that many can not read. I'd be delighted if some just read Things Fall Apart first

Tamaratonye1:

Question: did you read the Koran like a child and did it provoke your brain into action as much as the bible? How about Avesta? The texts of all other religions? Which was the most action-provoking?

No, I do not know your preconceived notions, and yes I did read the Quran and quite a few other religious texts, as a child. At no point did I assume meaning until I read them myself. And yes, they did have profound effects on me and my thinking.

The Quran, for instance, goes on about the corruption of God's word. It generally says it about the New and Old Testament, and this corruption can be conformed with research, but it also gives insight into the corruptability of the Quran itself, which evidence also supports. That alone should make the discerning reader hesitate at believing what they read and go do lots more research.

I read all books as a child, Tamaratonye1. It's called "suspending belief and disbelief", instead of blinding oneself with ones preconceived notions and beliefs. Only after I understand can I adequately judge.

Hello again Tamaratonye1.

HellVictorinho:



False


You are not the writer of the books

You cannot determine the intention of the writers by turning their statements upside down

In fact
The writers never intended peace because if they intended peace
They wouldn't have stated what has nothing to do with peace such as LOVE ALL YOUR NEIGHBORS including those YOU HAVE TO DEFEND YOURSELF AGAINST except YOU HATE YOURSELF


Every expression in those books doesn't support peace

Even where PEACE is mentioned

There's no reason why it should be ensured


The promises in those books are useless

If you also think Jesus said or meant something different from what is written in some cases_what that person once suggested,then you are just being pointless


You have to prove a Jesus that said Bla Bla Bla once existed before accusing people of not understanding what you are saying about what Jesus said except you admit to saying what nobody could have ever stated as a person called Jesus
or admit you are saying what nobody at all could have ever stated or admit to be saying what nobody to be taken seriously ever stated


The people(ALL the writers) that came up with Jesus existing as this or that never ALL said they were writing to ensure peace


That person you just quoted has confessed to turning the books upside down



It's of no use defending that person

The person calls it using your mind


Yeah

Use your head to turn it upside down



If you expect peace after turning it upside down
It shows you are a crook



There will never be peace

Nobody is a giver of peace so I don't think Dtruthspeaker should consider peace as what can be given to the world

Your peace doesn't mean the world has peace

You are not well..seek psychiatrist help ASAP.

HellVictorinho:



You are wrong

How am I wrong?

budaatum:
The Bible is a rather big book that many can not read.

The Bible is not a "book".

Ta Biblia is a set of ancient texts. It's a set of various texts, by many and varied authors, editors and redactors, all with very different motivations and styles, eventually assembled into a "canon", which is to this day, not universally agreed upon.

Unfortunately, just reading it may get you a modicum of understanding, but without knowledge of the ancient Near East, the literature of the time, and very specific (and probably extensive) knowledge of the culture(s) which produced them all, you really would have very little "understanding" of what you were reading. The comparison to Aesop's Fables and Confucianism is probably not very accurate.

budaatum:
I read all books as a child, Tamaratonye.1.

Wow. Stop the presses, we have the greatest mind this world has ever known. LOL

budaatum:
It's called "suspending belief and disbelief", instead of blinding oneself with ones preconceived notions and beliefs.

For the record, "suspension of disbelief' is a literary term and doesn't mean what you seem to think it does.

budaatum:
Only after I understand can I adequately judge.

Judge what? There are thousands upon thousands of mythologies in this world.

And I did mention other religious tomes other than the Koran. I see you've conveniently kept silent about the sacred texts of all other religions. I take it you've read all of them as a child, right?

Like, I don't know, all that science has discovered since those primitive times and has taught us about the world and ourselves. But by all means, if you need your mind profoundly opened by the mythologies of people who knew infinitely less than we do, that's entirely up to you.

budaatum:
Hello again Tamaratonye.1

Hey there

Tamaratonye1:

The Bible is not a "book".

Ta Biblia is a set of ancient texts.

"Shall we call it a library of ancient texts", then, or perhaps a collection?

Having read a few older Egyptian texts, I can't claim its the most ancient I've read, but I'm delighted it is available to read by most to whom it would be the most ancient text they read.

I gain a lot from reading that humans were described as being so dumb that Adam believed that Eve was a rib. It helps me appreciate how far we have come.

Tamaratonye1:

Unfortunately, just reading it may get you a modicum of understanding, but without knowledge of the ancient Near East, the literature of the time, and very specific (and probably extensive) knowledge of the culture(s) which produced them all, you really would have very little "understanding" of what you were reading. The comparison to Aesop's Fables and Confucianism is probably not very accurate.

Fortunately, "just reading" is a lack of understanding
in itself, because in the same book is a warning against "just reading", for it should be understood that "[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%208:3&version=NKJV]humans shalt not live by only one book or they will become malnourished[/url]".

Also is it written that you should, "ask and knock and seek with all your heart and soul and mind", so "just reading" is clearly out of the question for those seeking to understand.

Tamaratonye1:
Wow. Stop the presses, we have the greatest mind this world has ever known. LOL

I doubt that constitutes "the greatest mind this world has ever known", but I can't fail to note that it wows you as if it is an unusual achievement or impossible thing to do.

I'll watch that buda if I were you. Catch when buda doesn't "great mind"!

Tamaratonye1:
For the record, "suspension of disbelief' is a literary term and doesn't mean what you seem to think it does.

Assume I know what 'suspension of disbelief' means, then use that understanding to interpret what I said.

Tamaratonye1:

Judge what? There are thousands upon thousands of mythologies in this world.

Pity I can not provide a list of of creation myths i've read about in various book. But here is a list of related dead Gods. After about 3, 5 at most, I judged not but sought to understand.

Tamaratonye1:
And I did mention other religious tomes other than the Koran. I see you've conveniently kept silent about the sacred texts of all other religions. I take it you've read all of them as a child, right?

I don't need to list all texts or ones I've read. Its not for bragging rights after all.

No I have not "read all of them". I have however read quite a few and as a non-preconceiving child (after all, no one preached the content of the books to me prior to me reading them myself), I am much better off for doing so, in my opinion.

You just try believing, say, Homer, a 'bible' of it's time; and the Upanishad, a Bible of a different place, or Aesop's or Confucianism instead of with understanding (as in, with "knowledge of the ancient Near East, the literature of the time, and very specific (and probably extensive) knowledge of the culture(s) which produced them all", see how much of a muddle you'll be in. In your words, "I really would have very little "understanding" of what I were reading".

Tamaratonye1:
Like, I don't know, all that science has discovered since those primitive times and has taught us about the world and ourselves. But by all means, if you need your mind profoundly opened by the mythologies of people who knew infinitely less than we do, that's entirely up to you.
Hey there

It's my mind, right? I can open it with what I wish to.

Thankfully, I have chosen the written word. Every single one I can get my hands on and read before my pending blindness stops me. And even then is there audiobooks, or someone to read to me.

So long as my mind is open, buda is extremely very delighted.

sonmvayina:


You are not well..seek psychiatrist help ASAP.

I shouldn't be well to you.

Pastafari:
How am I wrong?

Your conclusion was not related to what I said the other time

HellVictorinho:




Your conclusion was not related to what I said the other time

My conclusion is that Flying Spaghetti Monster created all

Tamaratonye1:

I have read the Bible, first of all. And frankly, no offence by the way, you have no idea what "preconceived" notions have or haven't been blinding me or any other person here while reading it. I, personally, read it as a kid and had never been to church then. So all those words above for the profound insight of "read the bible"?

Talk about preconceived and blinded.

Question: did you read the Koran like a child and did it provoke your brain into action as much as the bible? How about Avesta? The texts of all other religions? Which was the most action-provoking?

Can't you see that one is Hell-bent on vain repetitions

Pastafari:
My conclusion is that Flying Spaghetti Monster created all

How is that related to what I was saying?

budaatum:


To be honest with you, I don't think anything created the universe, or at least no one put forward sounds credible to me.

As I said, 13.8billion years is far too long ago for me to ignorantly 'think' anything credible about the start of the universe and I refuse to be that ignorant.

Don't forget to provide the evidence I asked for please.

Why must I provide evidence for my belief?
Why can’t you just disprove my belief?

HellVictorinho:



How is that related to what I was saying?

because the Flying Spaghetti Monster is in charge of everything.

Pastafari:
Why must I provide evidence for my belief?
Why can’t you just disprove my belief?

I did not know it was a belief of yours. I thought and in fact read you claim it was a "fact".

You do not have to provide for me any evidence for what you create in your head and believe. Note.

budaatum:


To be honest with you, I don't think anything created the universe, or at least no one put forward sounds credible to me.

As I said, 13.8billion years is far too long ago for me to ignorantly 'think' anything credible about the start of the universe and I refuse to be that ignorant.

Don't forget to provide the evidence I asked for please.

The fact that you think we can’t know what happened 13.8billion years speaks volume about your person. That thought is grossly fallacious.
Science has given us the power to travel back in time and also accurately predict the future.

The idea that we can’t know what happened 13.8billion years ago because we don’t know everything that happened 10,000years ago is a fallacy and a flawed logic.

I will give you an example, if you look at a tree that just died yesterday, take a radiometric dating and it says the true is 3,000 years old. Because you don’t know how the tree died yesterday doesn’t mean that your radiometric result isn’t correct about what happened to the tree 3,000years ago

budaatum:


I did not know it was a belief of yours. I thought and in fact read you claim it was a "fact".

You do not have to provide for me any evidence for what you create in your head and believe. Note.

I am not saying that I am necessarily correct, but it’s my belief and and long as you cannot disprove it, we can’t overrule it.

Pastafari:
I am not saying that I am necessarily correct, but it’s my belief and and long as you cannot disprove it, we can’t overrule it.

I have absolutely no interest in your beliefs, Pasta. I have more interest in your understanding, and not so much to disprove it, but in order to understand you.

Pastafari:
The fact that you think we can’t know what happened 13.8billion years speaks volume about your person. That thought is grossly fallacious.
Science has given us the power to travel back in time and also accurately predict the future.

I so love my science, Pasta, quite a lot you would find, and I sure as hell separate it from religion or Quantum Leap, but science does not claim to know what happened 13.8billion years ago, nor can science accurately predict most things. I mean, neither scientists not priests predicted this current future of Covid now, did they.

budaatum:

I so love my science, Pasta, quite a lot you would find, and I sure as hell separate it from religion or Quantum Leap, but science does not claim to know what happened 13.8billion years ago, nor can science accurately predict most things. I mean, neither scientists not priests predicted this current future of Covid now, did they.

Well, here is another fallacy called the fallacy of composition.
Fallacy of composition is a type of logical fallacy, meaning a flaw in reasoning that weakens an argument or a trick of thought used as a debate tactic. It occurs when the properties of a whole and its parts are mistakenly thought to be transferable from one to the other.

Because scientists didn’t predict covid19 is not a valid argument against the predictability power of science. It’s simply a case of cherry picking a particular incident then transferring it to others while deliberately ignoring the many accurate predictions.

Pastafari:
because the Flying Spaghetti Monster is in charge of everything.

What is everything??

budaatum:


I have absolutely no interest in your beliefs, Pasta. I have more interest in your understanding, and not so much to disprove it, but in order to understand you.

You have chosen not to read, if you had read the book I shared concisely, you would have gotten my point. But here you are arguing because you Judged that book by its cover.

If you must get my point, buy a soft drink and read that book I shared with you. It’s important to read, very important