"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered.  "No one is good–except God alone."

Let me post the actual passage you're quoting:

- And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
- And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Matthew 19:16,17

Yes, this means it's only God that is good. Any problem with that?

only God is good all the time

If Jesus is not Good, then how can he be God?

You just answered your question, kismat. 'If Jesus is not good, then how can He be God?' Since Jesus was good, then He was God! More than that, He did what no man could do and clearly displayed the attributes of God. Jesus is both good and God, and He is a good God. Only those who disagree to the veracity of Jesus being God will turn round and say that He was 'bad'. So, by your own summations, if He was good, He was God.

You just answered your question, kismat. 'If Jesus is not good, then how can He be God?' Since Jesus was good, then He was God! More than that, He did what no man could do and clearly displayed the attributes of God. Jesus is both good and God, and He is a good God. Only those who disagree to the veracity of Jesus being God will turn round and say that He was 'bad'. So, by your own summations, if He was good, He was God.

You know its amazing how christains read the bible and do the total opposite of it. totally opposite in the sense that if it says do this, you dont do it.

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is[b] good–except God alone[/b]."

Did Jesus ever say "I'm God"? If you quote me that directly from the bible, i'll become a Christian. No Joke.

1. Ok, If Jesus displayed the attributes of God, then how come he cried on the Cross "oh God, why have you forseeken me?"

Your God has no Knowledge of himself. Who was he crying to? Himself? A "God" that doesnt is unaware of himself. That he was going to die for all your sins.

2. Did jesus ever say I am doing this (healing the born blind, leapers and raising the dead) or did he say its by the grace of his father that he's capable of doing all those miracles? Read what Jesus said.

3. A God with Geneology? Two different Genenology? Matthew 1:1-16 and b. Luke 3:23-38.

4. If Jesus is God, then all those around him SAW God right? But according to your Bible;

"No man hath seen God at any time John 1: 18 (b) " (God) whom no man hath seen, nor can see .,."I TIMOTHY 6:16 (c) "And he (God) said, Thou canst see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. EXODUS 33:20

5. If Jesus is God and possessed Godly powers, then he should be able to do everything right? As you rightly said, he possessed Godly attributes. But according to the Man/"God" himself;

"I can of mine own self do NOTHING . . ." JOHN 5:30

How shameful. Your God says he cant Do NOTHING. So you are lying too. He didnt possess Godly powers. For Jesus to make such a statement, there must be someone who is more powerful than him.


I mean can you see the flaws in these belief? You believe in onething and Jesus says the opposite of that. Dont you have the intelligence to realise that what you believe in is not actually a belief but program ingrained in your system/thought/feeling since childhood and doesnt pass any test when properly looked at?

Tell you what. Tonight right before you go to Bed, Get down on your knees, put your face on the ground (just as jesus did up the mount) and pray. Just say "God, show the right path. Enlighten me. Bring me close to you and save me from hell fire".

With sincerity and with no reference to anything. No Jesus, no facial images of Jesus. No nothing. Just Pray and dont try and picture anything.

kismat,

I did not see that you had replied to my post earlier until someone pointed out to me that the thread has been taken to the 'Islam for Muslims' forum. That aside, I wonder if you are asking questions in a spirit of genuinely seeking answers or you would prefer long-drawn out arguments that could leave people trading insults on Muhammad and Islam the way you take the liberty to do so here on Christianity. I should not be obliged to answer your petty mischief, if it were not that you've twisted matters to unbelievable proportions. I'd rather avoid the silliness of your purpose by not indulging in the same lack of respect you have displayed.

However, let me extend to you a simple antidote for your problem: don't try reading the Bible with the aim of deliberately looking for faults - there could be even more glaring faults in your own Qur'an than you might realise, regardless of any arguments that you may have to the contrary. I'll save you the headache by avoiding the same attitude you took; but if you really want to know, I'll be most happy to post you a few. However, in the spirit of humility that Jesus Himself exemplified, I'll point you to answers in the Bible that you either missed or simply did not take the time to see:

1. When Jesus said, "I can of mine own self do nothing" (John 5:30), you took that out of context to mean that He was impotent - as if He was actually not able to move a limb. If you had read that verse in its context, it is clear that He was pointing to the fact that He was not acting on His own initiative. He did not come of His own accord, neither did He come to do His own will. It was the Father's will He came to do; and that is why He could not do anything that would conflict with the will of the Father. That is why in that same verse, Jesus said: "I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." I see that you only quoted part of the verse so that it sounded to you like Jesus was powerless to even breathe. No wonder you missed the point.

       kismat:
       Did Jesus ever say "I'm God"? If you quote me that directly from the bible, i'll become a Christian. No Joke.

2. When you argue this way, you will continue to miss the point. How many things do Muslims do in the name of Allah that he categorically or directly stated in the Qur'an that we see happening today? One example is the killings and rampage that we've seen the last few weeks under the facade of 'protecting the honour of the prophet.' Now my challenge has always been that any Muslim quotes just one verse in the Qur'an that directly says, "Muslims should kill anybody who cartoons Muhammad." I'm still waiting ever since I posed that question. See? That's not how to argue a case - you will not find a verse saying verbatim what you're asking the Bible to state.

But then, why do I as a Christian believe that Jesus Christ was more than a man?

   (a) Because Jesus called Himself the "Alpha and Omega", and "the First and the Last" in Revelation 1:11 & 17. Notice that "First and Last" is the very title that God used for Himself in Isa.41:4. Apart from several other verses in both the Old and New Testaments that show clearly that Jesus Christ was God Himself, perhaps for many people (like me), no other verse speaks more effectively than one in which Jesus Christ was heard calling Himself by divine titles - as in the verses above.

   (b) Because Jesus claimed equality with the Father in John 10:30 when He said, "I and my Father are one." No man has ever claimed the same status as Jesus did like in this very provocative and yet profound statement. It was clear that Jesus claimed to be God in that verse, because the reaction of the Jews showed that they got exactly that meaning in His statement, and therefore wanted to stone Him (see John 10:31ff). Now if Jesus thought He was misunderstood, would He not have attempted to correct their impression by denying the claim of divinity? But no, He did not deny the meaning of His statement, but rather challenged the Jews.

   (c) Because Jesus claimed the same status in divine worship as the Father in John 5:23. He could not have claimed the same honour as with the Father if He was merely a man. In effect, Jesus was saying that anyone who brings honour to God (the Father) without honouring the Son in exactly the same way, has infact not honoured the Father.

It's going to be a very difficult thing to wrestle with if you're bent on controversy; but here you have a few texts in the Bible that will help answer your question about the fact that Jesus claimed He was God. I do believe that if you're sincere in your challenge to see in the Bible where Jesus said He was God, the above will convince you beyond the shadow of a doubt that He made that claim as clearly as daylight. What would you now do with the "No Joke" in your reply to become a Christian?

If you would seek God in the same way that you challenged me to do before going to bed, I guarantee you that He will show you the power of His love in Jesus Christ - much more than I can ever tell you here. God bless.

I dont read the bible looking for faults. I started questioning the concept of religion and why we are all divided since childhood, which lead me to studying different religions and coming across some illogical things which made me believe that The teachings of Islam is the simplest and most correct way of worshiping my creator. Believe in One God, pray five times a day, fast 30 days and help the poor. forgive me if i've insulted or said anything about your religion. Let me get back to your points.

1. When Jesus said, "I can of mine own self do nothing" (John 5:30), you took that out of context to mean that He was impotent - as if He was actually not able to move a limb. If you had read that verse in its context, it is clear that He was pointing to the fact that He was not acting on His own initiative. He did not come of His own accord, neither did He come to do His own will. It was the Father's will He came to do; and that is why He could not do anything that would conflict with the will of the Father. That is why in that same verse, Jesus said: "I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." I see that you only quoted part of the verse so that it sounded to you like Jesus was powerless to even breathe. No wonder you missed the point.

There are two issues here which we might have a different understanding of. Who or what are the attributes of God? It seems to me that you believe God begets (procreates, has/had sexually relationship) and from that act came Jesus. From my understanding and even according to the bible, the "sonship" attributed to God is not SON as in father/son relationship, but it was used by previous prophets and religious people to mean being holy or pious. Establishing some sort of bond with God that isnt human in nature. Spiritual bond. What many christians and even you will fail to explain is why Jesus is given a special privilage of being son, begotten son of God whilst the rest are treated as spiritual in relationship?

SONS BY THE DOZEN IN THE BIBLE

(a) 'Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the SON OF GOD." LUKE 3:38
(b) "That the SONS OF GOD saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took wives of all which they chose. ". . when the SONS OF GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." GENESIS 6:2 and 4
(c) " . . Thus- saith the Lord, Israel is MY SON even my FIRSTBORN." EXODUS 4:22
(d) " . . and Ephraim is my FIRSTBORN," JEREMIAH 31:9
(e) " . . Thou (o David) ART MY SON; this day have I (God) BEGOTTEN thee. " PSALMS 2:7 (TONS A ton is 2000 lbs weight, that is about a thousand kilograms.) ("FIRST BORN:" How can there be two "firstborns"?) ("BEGOTTEN" How can God beget David at the age of forty? "This day'?)

If Jesus is the biological Son of God, then God has dozen of sons.

kismat:
Did Jesus ever say "I'm God"? If you quote me that directly from the bible, i'll become a Christian. No Joke.

2. When you argue this way, you will continue to miss the point. How many things do Muslims do in the name of Allah that he categorically or directly stated in the Qur'an that we see happening today? One example is the killings and rampage that we've seen the last few weeks under the facade of 'protecting the honour of the prophet.' Now my challenge has always been that any Muslim quotes just one verse in the Qur'an that directly says, "Muslims should kill anybody who cartoons Muhammad." I'm still waiting ever since I posed that question. See? That's not how to argue a case - you will not find a verse saying verbatim what you're asking the Bible to state.

You are trying to mix up two issues here. I can address your point and show you irrefutable statements which explicitly states what Islam's position is on reprinting images. Open up another thread with your question for discussion and ask what you want to know.

In short, majority of the Muslims dont share this view of killing whoever draws up the image of God. God will protect his messenger and save him from any embarrasment. I and Most muslims are concerned with our own deeds. I wont be asked "did you protect the messenger" during the final day of judgement but rather "Who is your God?, did you pray five times a day". Every religion, country, community however you want to disect, has its pact of imbiciles, ignorant people who do not contemplate on their actions. Dont use these vulgar acts to justify why you are a christian or why Jesus never said he wasnt a God.

As for Jesus being the son of God, this is

But then, why do I as a Christian believe that Jesus Christ was more than a man?

(a) Because Jesus called Himself the "Alpha and Omega", and "the First and the Last" in Revelation 1:11 & 17. Notice that "First and Last" is the very title that God used for Himself in Isa.41:4. Apart from several other verses in both the Old and New Testaments that show clearly that Jesus Christ was God Himself, perhaps for many people (like me), no other verse speaks more effectively than one in which Jesus Christ was heard calling Himself by divine titles - as in the verses above.

Again this comes back to my previous question (attributes of God). So you are saying JESUS=GOD=FIRST AND LAST.
Well how can God have a beginning and an End? Is this one of the attributes of God in christianity? A born God and Died God? If he was born, then he certainly had a mother and on goes the chain of paternal relationship. But this isnt the case. God has no Beginning and no end. The book of revelation is the ONLY book in the NT that states this. Who wrote the book of Revelations? Well, according to the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1922:

"Four times the author identifies himself as John (1:1,4,9; 22:, In the third century, however, an African bishop named Dionysius compared the language, style and thought of the Apocalypse (Revelation) with that of the other writings of John and decided that the book could not been written by the apostle of John. "

(b) Because Jesus claimed equality with the Father in John 10:30 when He said, "I and my Father are one." No man has ever claimed the same status as Jesus did like in this very provocative and yet profound statement. It was clear that Jesus claimed to be God in that verse, because the reaction of the Jews showed that they got exactly that meaning in His statement, and therefore wanted to stone Him (see John 10:31ff). Now if Jesus thought He was misunderstood, would He not have attempted to correct their impression by denying the claim of divinity? But no, He did not deny the meaning of His statement, but rather challenged the Jews.

This is you, the same person who posted:

you took that out of context to mean that He was impotent

Well then, lets look at the context of this message (i and my father are one):

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

As can be seen from John 10:28 and John 10:29 that Jesus is telling the Jews that he and God share something in common, and that is; that no one can pluck the faithful from either of their hands. This is what is common between Jesus and God in this case, and not that Jesus is himself is God, or that they are exactly the same.

Let us go on to see what Jesus says:

John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

John 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

John 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 10:39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

John 10:40 And went away again beyond Jordan

In John 10:31 we see that the Jews misunderstood what Jesus had meant by "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30). And in John 10:33 they accuse him of blasphemy. Now, had Jesus been God, or had he and God been one in a literal sense then he should not hesitate to clarify the matter at this point. Jesus at this point says, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" What he is trying to say that if you call "I and my Father are one" blasphemy then you should call what is written in your law "Ye are gods" blasphemy also (i've quoted these verses above). The reasoning here is that "Ye are gods" does not mean that you, the Jews, are Gods, it is rather an expression. It just means that you are godly people. The same with "I and my Father are one." It does not mean that I am God or that we are the same literally. It is just an expression. The same goes for calling himself "the Son of God." This statement should not be taken literally either.

(c) Because Jesus claimed the same status in divine worship as the Father in John 5:23. He could not have claimed the same honour as with the Father if He was merely a man. In effect, Jesus was saying that anyone who brings honour to God (the Father) without honouring the Son in exactly the same way, has infact not honoured the Father.

This is the same with Muslims and Jews. How are we suppose to get closer to God, have his mercy etc when we dont listen, believe and obey his messiah/prophet/messenger? Thats why HE has sent them to us. To remind and show us how to worship, obey HIM.

"Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger, but if you turn away, Allah loves not the disbelievers." (Quran 3:32)

In fact there are some verses in the quran that command the obedience of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) but does not mention the obedience of Allah alongside it

"And establish regular prayer and pay the poor-due and obey the Prophet so that you may be blessed." (Quran 24:56)

BUT we dont worship Muhammed (pbuh). We only worship the God he, Jesus, Abraham, Moses and all other believers worship. Allah.

Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird by Allah’s leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah’s leave. And I announce to you what you eat and what you store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you if you are to be believers.
And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me. Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path. (Qur’an 3: 49-51).

that can make a whole book

ChoiceA,
Waiting on u o! Standingby for ur reply!

Kismat,
More grease to your elbow. I'm enjoying this intellectual challenge you are puting up against ChoiceA. As far as I can tell, you have not insulted anyone. Keep it up.

kismat:

You know its amazing how christains read the bible and do the total opposite of it. totally opposite in the sense that if it says do this, you don't do it.

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is[b] good–except God alone[/b]."

Did Jesus ever say "I'm God"? If you quote me that directly from the bible, i'll become a Christian. No Joke.

1. Ok, If Jesus displayed the attributes of God, then how come he cried on the Cross "oh God, why have you forseeken me?"

Your God has no Knowledge of himself. Who was he crying to? Himself? A "God" that doesnt is unaware of himself. That he was going to die for all your sins.

2. Did jesus ever say I am doing this (healing the born blind, leapers and raising the dead) or did he say its by the grace of his father that he's capable of doing all those miracles? Read what Jesus said.

3. A God with Geneology? Two different Genenology? Matthew 1:1-16 and b. Luke 3:23-38.

4. If Jesus is God, then all those around him SAW God right? But according to your Bible;

"No man hath seen God at any time John 1: 18 (b) " (God) whom no man hath seen, nor can see .,."I TIMOTHY 6:16 (c) "And he (God) said, Thou canst see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. EXODUS 33:20

5. If Jesus is God and possessed Godly powers, then he should be able to do everything right? As you rightly said, he possessed Godly attributes. But according to the Man/"God" himself;

"I can of mine own self do NOTHING . . ." JOHN 5:30

How shameful. Your God says he can't Do NOTHING. So you are lying too. He didnt possess Godly powers. For Jesus to make such a statement, there must be someone who is more powerful than him.


I mean can you see the flaws in these belief? You believe in onething and Jesus says the opposite of that. Dont you have the intelligence to realise that what you believe in is not actually a belief but program ingrained in your system/thought/feeling since childhood and doesnt pass any test when properly looked at?

Tell you what. Tonight right before you go to Bed, Get down on your knees, put your face on the ground (just as jesus did up the mount) and pray. Just say "God, show the right path. Enlighten me. Bring me close to you and save me from hell fire".

With sincerity and with no reference to anything. No Jesus, no facial images of Jesus. No nothing. Just Pray and don't try and picture anything.

1.) A lot of people find understanding the Roles of Jesus and God confusing. Jesus is not God. He has Gods spirit in him [b](John 17:21 That they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.)[/b]. Jesus was exactly like God. The forgiving and loving Jesus we read about in Bibles, is exactly how God is like. The reason why Jesus says him and God are ONE is because they share spirits. Thats the easiest way i can put it.

2.) Yes Jesus cried on the cross " Father why have you forsaken me ". Just remember Jesus was a human just like you and me, even though he had Gods spirit in him, that does not mean he does not feel pain. He cried out on the cross in pain. You are great at quoting the bible why don't you quote the other things he said while he was on the cross. ('Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.') Yep thats right, he was praying for us (MAN) why we killed him!

[b](John 10:18
(No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father." )[/b]. Jesus clearly said here that he choose to give his life on his own accord!

3.)When jesus said he can do nothing, he meant he can do nothing without God, he is saying that he can only do it by the will of God who has sent him. [b](I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me)[/b]

I Hope this helps! [b](Colossians 4:5 Live wisely among those who are not Christians, and make the most of every opportunity. Let your conversation be gracious and effective so that you will have the right answer for everyone).[/
b]

God bless!

Softee:

1.) A lot of people find understanding the Roles of Jesus and God confusing. Jesus is not God. He has Gods spirit in him [b](John 17:21 That they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.)[/b]. Jesus was exactly like God. The forgiving and loving Jesus we read about in Bibles, is exactly how God is like. The reason why Jesus says him and God are ONE is because they share spirits. Thats the easiest way i can put it.

If Jesus has God's spirit in him, would you mind telling me which spirit you have in you? If you have God's spirit in you too, then u are not any different from Jesus, hence there's only one God. Not 2 or 3 gods!

Softee:

2.) Yes Jesus cried on the cross " Father why have you forsaken me ". Just remember Jesus was a human just like you and me, even though he had Gods spirit in him, that does not mean he does not feel pain. He cried out on the cross in pain. You are great at quoting the bible why don't you quote the other things he said while he was on the cross. ('Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.') Yep thats right, he was praying for us (MAN) why we killed him!

Abeg who are the "We" that killed him (Jesus)? That statement should be refering to those who supposedly killed him. How am I supposed to be counted amongst those who killed him, when I wasn't even born then. Besides the bible also states that:
[center]Each is responsible for his own actions, a son does not bear guilt for his father's sins(EZEK 18:19-20).
[/center]
Or would you count yourself amongst those who killed him?

Softee:

3.)When jesus said he can do nothing, he meant he can do nothing without God, he is saying that he can only do it by the will of God who has sent him. [b](I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me)[/b]

Here again Jesus says he's not got the power to do things on his own but by the will of God Who sent him.
Jesus also says he was sent by the Father: does that mean Jesus is a messenger?


Please shed more light here o!

Softee: A lot of people find understanding the Roles of Jesus and God confusing. Jesus is not God.

As a Christian, this is what my Bible tells me about the divinity or deity of Jesus Christ: Jesus is God.

1. The Son who was prophesied to be given will be called "The Mighty God" - a title that is not given to any other man: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." (Isa. 9:6).

2. Isaiah again prophesied that He would be recognised as "Immanuel" (that is, "God with Us" - which is the name He was called when He was born: "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." (Isa. 7:14; compare Matt.1:23)

3. The title "Word" is used both as referring to Jesus and pointing out that the same "Word" is God: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1) There is no doubt that the 'Word' is Jesus Christ Himself as Rev.19:13 shows - "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God." (Rev. 19:13).

4. Micah prophesied that the Messiah had been existing from eternity - that is, He did not have a beginning: "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." (Mic. 5:2)

5. Jesus used divine titles for Himself: "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." (Rev.22:12-13). The titles "Alpha and Omega" and "First and Last" do not mean that Jesus had a beginning in His deity, nor that one day He would cease to exist. There was a time when He became what He was not - He became man (John 1:14); but He was existing long before He was born in the flesh. Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet, and as so used of Christ in the Bible, it means that all things have their beginning and completion in Him. ("beginning and completion" in this context does not mean that evil began or will be completed in Christ). Another way of applying these terms is in Heb.12:2 where Christ is called the author and finisher of our faith. Again, as pertaining to the fact that all things subsist in Christ, one needs only read other scripture verses that bear this out: "All things were made by him (alpha); and without him was not any thing made that was made (omega)." (John 1:3); "And he is before all things (alpha), and by him all things consist (omega)." (Col. 1:17); etc.

No other prophet was given these positions or titles; none could have claimed them for himself. Because of who He was and is, only Jesus Christ could make such high claims without infringing on divine prerogative.

Sometimes, I think it's best for the sake of mutual respect to just ignore certain arguments, especially when the attitude of the enquirer is neither rational nor respectful. If enquiries are made without recourse to disrespect for other people's faith, I'd be most happy to engage the topic of discussion. I usually shy away from derogatory language in religious discussions so that I don't say things that will hurt anyone's feelings.

That said, let me point out a few things:

1. "Dont use these vulgar acts to justify why you are a christian or why Jesus never said he wasnt a God".
In what ways did my earlier reply sound like I was justifying my being a Christian because of anyone's vulgar acts, less so to justify Jesus being God? I think this is usually the problem that occurs when you read issues into people's threads. In my illustration, I demonstrated that the way you had argued earlier will always result in misconceptions. Go back and see the point in my writeup: "When you argue this way, you will continue to miss the point" and "See? That's not how to argue a case - you will not find a verse saying verbatim what you're asking the Bible to state." All I said was that you were not using a good argument in your earlier reply, and I illustrated that point by using a far-fetched issue in just the way you had done. You did not need to fly off the handle: there was nothing in my replies to show that I was justifying why I am a Christian by making recourse to "vulgar acts".

2. "Who or what are the attributes of God?"
I'm happy you asked, because you ought to have stated a few of those attributes yourself so that I have an outline of what you wanted me to respond to.

3. "It seems to me that you believe God begets (procreates, has/had sexually relationship) and from that act came Jesus." ____ "If Jesus is the biological Son of God, then God has dozen of sons."
Let me take you back again: nothing in my thread has remotely suggested that I believed "God has/had sexually relationship" with anyone to produce Jesus. Not one time. Your threads would have made sense to me if you only could keep my points in view and not put words in my mouth or read ulterior meanings into my replies. As concerning the word 'beget', the thought of God having sex with anyone (blasphemous as it is) did not originate with true Christians. As far as I know from literary works of historians (both secular and religious), it was infact a false accusation levelled against Christianity by __(guess who?)__ Muhammed himself! How is this possible? Muhammed did not like the idea of Jesus being called the Son of God; and in his theological persuasions, he thought that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity must mean that Christians were worshipping the Father, Mary the mother of Jesus (as God's wife), and Jesus. You won't have to let off steam again about this statement; but if you want some pointers, see here: http://muhammadanism.org/Trinity/default.htm. A direct verse in the Qur'an that infers this misconception of the Trinity by Muhammed is found in Surah 5:116 - "And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" Here it is clear that early Islamic concepts about the Trinity is that Mary was God's wife - something that did not originate with true Christianity. Heretical groups no doubt might have held to that belief; but Jesus' followers (the apostles and early Christians) did not teach God_Mary_Jesus as the Trinity. Neither did they teach that Jesus was the biological son of God.

4. "From my understanding and even according to the bible, the "sonship" attributed to God is not SON as in father/son relationship, but it was used by previous prophets and religious people to mean being holy or pious. Establishing some sort of bond with God that isnt human in nature."
Two issues are before us here: if you really believed this was the meaning of "sonship", why then did Muhammed and the Qur'an militate against the use of the term in Islam? If 'sonship' meant being holy and pious, why then was Muhammed not called the son of God in the Qur'an? Or do Muslims not believe that Muhammed was pious? You see, that reasoning is unsubstantiated in the Bible nor in the Qur'an. The reason why the term 'Son of God' does not appear in the Qur'an as a title of any prophet is that Islam did not believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God; and secondly, because the term did not mean "holy" or "pious". Again, you were right, though, in stating that "sonship" referred to some sort of bond with God that isn't human in nature - more accurately, as used of Christ being the unique Son of God, it points to His divinity.

5. "Well how can God have a beginning and an End? Is this one of the attributes of God in christianity? A born God and Died God?"
If you read my post just above, you'll understand that "Alpha and Omega" and "First and Last" do not mean the same thing as God having a beginning and an End. Christianity does not teach such as any attribute of God. God is eternal, without beginning or end. However, 'first and last' mean something more and other than you had overstated. "I am the Beginning and the Ending" is not the same thing as "I have a beginning and an ending". These terms are not peculiar to the Revelation, and it has more of the meaning of Christ being the Source as well as the Perfecter of all God's work: He gives them their origin, and at last He brings all things to their ultimate culmination. Other terms akin to these are: "author and finisher of our faith" (Heb.12:2), etc. See my reply just before this for further explanation.

6. "an African bishop named Dionysius compared the language, style and thought of the Apocalypse (Revelation) with that of the other writings of John and decided that the book could not been written by the apostle of John. "
First, I would have expected you to state who the real author is if different from John the apostle. It is as easy for some 'Muslim' scholar to come up and discredit certain Qur'anic texts without proffering the authentic ones. Dionysius expressed his personal views, and even then could not suggest who the real author of the Revelation is - and you quoted him as if he was speaking for everyone. Dionysius' comment about the authorship of the Revelation, however, does not hold true; and several Bible scholarships have been produced to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that John was indeed the author.

7. (c) Because Jesus claimed the same status in divine worship as the Father in John 5:23.
"This is the same with Muslims and Jews."
Actually, as far as I know, you're the first Muslim to make that claim to me on the subject. If you had carefully weighed my statement ("Jesus claimed the same status in divine worship as the Father in John 5:23", I'm sure you would not want me to assume Muslims believe that Muhammed claimed the same thing as Jesus did in John 5:23. I stand to be corrected in saying that Muhammed could not have made such a claim because he was no more than a man; but I'll be happy to have you quote me a few verses from the Qur'an that infact Muhammed "claimed the same status in divine worship as the Father" (or as God).

However you look at the issue, you cannot fault Christianity by subjecting the Bible or Christian doctrines to the Qur'an or Islamic interpretations. As long as you do this, you'll always arrive at completely slanted meanings of Biblical teachings, principles and practices. The Bible is unique in itself and invites genuine enquiries from anyone willing to know its truths. Jesus Christ gave one condition for understanding the truths He taught in the Bible: "If any man will do his (God's) will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." (John 7:17).

ChoicA,
Your lengthy write up was mostly out of point as you have not been able to defend what Kismat has raised. please go straight to the point and stop rambling about trying to defend the undefendable. I'll advice you to go into Islamic texts and the Qur'an proper whenever you want to quote from the Qur'an. Please stop going to Jewish sites such as the one you quoted in your statement above.

Some more questions for you though?
If Jesus is God (as you guys claim), how come he died? can your God die? And if He died (which is certainly not possible), who was then in control of the universe when he was momentarily dead?

Please answer the questions strictly and don't bother beating about the bush.

Peace.

9ijaMan,
My responses have been focused on the issues raised by kismat and anyone would see that there's been a  rational defence in my replies to her objections. Pardon me, but if what you had expected of me was to dance to your tune, you got it all wrong. What is wrong with long writeups anyway if it is necessary to comprehensively respond to  misconceptions? Secondly, I am not trying to defend Islam - I don't believe in the Qur'an, so I don't waste my time trying to quote it as if I do; neither do I want to take the position of interpreting the Qur'an for Muslims. My quoting the Qur'anic verses might get you miffed, but in so far as it makes my point, there would be no need for you to be rude by saying I was rambling. Further, if I went to a Jewish site, I only offered you the benefit of the doubt that my sources were not skewed or biasedly Christian - I am not a Jew; but informed Jews know their history so well, and that is what many Muslims refuse to admit. Besides, if kismat could go to any site in her replies, I see no reason why you should legislate against my doing so in order to show how she had misapplied theories. If truth is sincerely pursued, there would be no need to overreact. I have not attempted to subjugate Islam to Christian interpretations; neither should Muslims try to subject Christian teaching to Islamic interpretations. What you cannot understand does not necessarily become heresy simply because it does not conform to Islam.


Even then, carefully consider my response to your questions.

"If Jesus is God (as you boys claim), how come he died? can your God die?"
1.What is death? It is not the annihilation of existence. Jesus is the divine Word which Himself is God (John 1:1). He existed as God before the incarnation (Micah 5:2 and Isaiah 9:6). It would be impossible for someone who is divine to experience death in the state of his divinity alone. In order to do so, Jesus became a Man without sin - so that only in the flesh was He able to experience death in His redemptive work. "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil." (Heb.2:14). He would not need to die for Himself, because He was sinless. But His death was clearly pointing to His sacrifice for the salvation of sinners. "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit." (I Pet.3:18).

2. He died in the flesh, but that does not mean that He ceased to exist, as the Bible makes clear concerning His activities for the period of His vicarious death. Christ was actively engaged in His vicarious and redemptive work beyond the grave. "Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?" and "¹⁸For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: ¹⁹By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (Eph.4:9 and I Pet.3:18-19).

"And if He died (which is certainly not possible), who was then in control of the universe when he was momentarily dead?"
1. As God, He did not lose His control of the universe for a moment - whether during His incarnation or humanity, or during His death. How is that possible? First, the Bible states clearly that Jesus Christ is the divine Word (logos) of God (John1:1). In the power of His divinity, He is the Word that upholds all things - the very Power that brings things into existence and yet sustains them:

(a) "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (John1:3)
(b) "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Col.1:17).

Death did not affect the real Personhood and Divinity of Jesus Christ. He whose name is "the Word" (Rev.19:13) and through whom all things were created, is the very same Who sustains all things, whether visible or invisible. That is why, even while put to death in the flesh, it was not possible for death to keep Him bound or limit Him in His loving sustenance and upholding of all things by Himself as Heb.1:3 points out.

Now, all this may sound heretical to Muslims just because it does not conform to Islamic teachings. Biblical Christianity (or even Judaism) does not have to be subjugated to Islamic interpretations in order to be correct or genuine. The Qur'an should not be the measure of all things; and that is the grave mistake that uninformed Muslims make in order to write off all other religions or faiths as heresy. If I attempt to do the same thing as subjecting the Qur'an to the Christian worldview, everyone knows that it will not pass the test.

choice.A:

9ijaMan,
My responses have been focused on the issues raised by kismat and anyone would see that there's been a rational defence in my replies to her objections. Pardon me, but if what you had expected of me was to dance to your tune, you got it all wrong. What is wrong with long writeups anyway if it is necessary to comprehensively respond to misconceptions? Secondly, I am not trying to defend Islam - I don't believe in the Qur'an, so I don't waste my time trying to quote it as if I do; neither do I want to take the position of interpreting the Qur'an for Muslims. My quoting the Qur'anic verses might get you miffed, but in so far as it makes my point, there would be no need for you to be rude by saying I was rambling. Further, if I went to a Jewish site, I only offered you the benefit of the doubt that my sources were not skewed or biasedly Christian - I am not a Jew; but informed Jews know their history so well, and that is what many Muslims refuse to admit. Besides, if kismat could go to any site in her replies, I see no reason why you should legislate against my doing so in order to show how she had misapplied theories. If truth is sincerely pursued, there would be no need to overreact. I have not attempted to subjugate Islam to Christian interpretations; neither should Muslims try to subject Christian teaching to Islamic interpretations. What you cannot understand does not necessarily become heresy simply because it does not conform to Islam.

ChoiceA,
Firstly, accept my apology since you take offence at my last submission.
After perusing a number of dictionaries I came up with the following definitions for death:
1: The permanent end of all life functions in an organism or part of an organism
2: The absence of life or state of being dead
3: End of being alive.

I'm deeply amazed that you can accept that your god "Died" and infact went even further to support you claim. I thot Jesus said his father sent him, that means there was someone else who sent him. Or was it Jesus who sent himself again? How can you make sense out of it? Ask youself sincerely, how can he that has sent someone be the same person that is being sent?

Remember christ was dead and raised on the 3rd day, prior to his ascent to heaven. Where was he in the time interval between his death and when he was raised? You quotations have not shown clearly where he was.

choice.A:

9ijaMan,
Now, all this may sound heretical to Muslims just because it does not conform to Islamic teachings. Biblical Christianity (or even Judaism) does not have to be subjugated to Islamic interpretations in order to be correct or genuine. The Qur'an should not be the measure of all things; and that is the grave mistake that uninformed Muslims make in order to write off all other religions or faiths as heresy. If I attempt to do the same thing as subjecting the Qur'an to the Christian worldview, everyone knows that it will not pass the test.

Your statements and quotations does not only sound heretical but harebrained (permit my use of the word) to Muslims alone but to an averagely sane mind. No one in his right senses would be able to make any meaning out of your quotations.

Have you ever attempted to pick up the Bible as it's written in it's original form? Not the ones that have passed thru various stages of editing and re-editing.

Try reading what you've written again without prejudice and make some sense out of it.

Let's put dogma aside, how do you think you would be able to convince a neutral person to accept what you've written?

The essense of discussions like this is for us all to learn and not to be blinded by some absurd faith and making illogical conclusions.

Bros, I don't mean to be offensive in my style of writing so please accept my apology if I sound harsh.

Also, I'm not in anyway trying to ask you to defend Islam, I'm only asking you to Quote the Qur'an and not some funny sites if you must make reference to what is written in the Qur'an. As you can see that I've tried not to reference anything outside the Bible in my submissions. So please whenever you want to substantiate your point on an issue, the best place to get info is the original source.

9ijaMan,

No hard feelings and I don't take offense in anything you have said in your last post.    

I acknowledge that my responses may be somewhat strange to you or anyone; but they were written in defense of what so many Muslims call worse than 'harebrained' concerning Christian teachings in Islamic understanding. However, I did not try to give credence to the idea that "God died" in my writeups. I made reference to Biblical texts to show that Christ in His humanity was put to death in the flesh. If you failed to see the context in which Christ died (which to you seemed "certainly not possible", then the issues spiral out of the main topic into a discussion on the veracity of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Let me extend an invitation to you to open another thread if you'd like to know more of what Christians think of the death and resurrection of Christ from the Biblical point of view.

I agree with your dictionary definitions of death only in a limited context. Some people may think of death as a permanent cessation of life in a biological or philosophical sense. In matters of faith (both Islamic and Christian), certain terms have different or more comprehensive meanings from the limited definitions given in the dictionaries. In this case, death in Christian theology carries other connotations than the dictionaries proffer. An example is found in II Cor.5:8 - to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. To further clarify this meaning of death, recall the teaching of Jesus Christ in Luke 16:19-31. There, you'll find that, even after the rich man and Lazarus "died" (in the sense of the cessation of biological life), they were yet conscious in the spiritual realm so that the rich man and Abraham had a conversation. So, I'll suggest to you that death goes far deeper in meaning than the three dictionary definitions that you delineated. And in that sense, my reply was aiming to demonstrate that Christ died for real in the flesh; but death in that sense did not necessarily mean that Christ was inactive for three days during His death. Christ in His humanity suffered death; but in His essential Person and divinity, He was very active beyond the grave.

Again, as you rightly pointed out, Jesus Christ was sent by God the Father: He did not send Himself. The difficulty in trying to understand the Trinity is that some often try to push the teaching in a Mathematical sense so far as would suggest Christians are worshipping three Gods - which is not true. I cannot exhaustively explain the fact that there is only ONE true and living God who is at the same time revealed in the Trinity - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (as Jesus plainly stated in Matt.28:19). But then, as a Christian who believes that the Bible is the Word of God, the verses I quoted in my earlier reply are affirmations that Jesus Christ is Himself God and not merely a man. I might need to take a longer writeup to share with you about the Biblical teaching of the Trinity and the deity of Jesus Christ if you so require of me.  

This brings us to the third objection: where was Jesus Christ in the time interval between His death and resurrection?
The following texts in the Bible show that (1) He first went to the lower regions of the earth -  "Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?" (Eph.4:9). This lower parts of the earth in biblical language is not referring to '6 feet below the ground'; it is an expression of the reality of the spiritual and unseen world where spirit beings have their experiences. (2) In which case, we find what He was occupied with while in the spirit domains - "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (I Pet.3:19). By these texts it is clear that Christ was active even beyond the grave, so that death did not limit Him in the sense of its every day usage of the term.

"Have you ever attempted to pick up the Bible as it's written in it's original form?"
I'll be glad if you have a copy of the Bible in its original form to send to me. When people try to tell me that the Bible today cannot be trusted because it does not contain the Word of God in its original form, my question has always been that if they have one themselves that I could read, would they be willing to send me a copy? You see, the claim that the Bible is corrupt is untenable as far as this is just a claim by Islam or anyone else. those who make that accusation surprise me by not being able to produce a copy of the original Bible.

On the whole, I want to thank you for your questions and reasonable attitude in posing them. I do not find your language necessarily derogatory at this time and hope that we can mutually engage in any discussions without belittling one another's faith. If I have inadvertently upset you, I offer my apology upfront; and further objections you might have are welcome where I have overlooked any one you raised.

Many blessings.  

@ChoiceA
The onus is not on me to find the original version of the Bible. I have a book which I strongly belive in and it's been in its original state for over 1400years. At least I can attest to the fact that the Qur'an does not have revised editions nor does it have a new form. It's been in the same form since it was revealed.
Most certainly you cannot say the same for the Bible. We've had several revisions and editions of the same book. The catholic version is different from the protestants version. I was in paris 2 months ago and was amazed to see another version entirely different from the ones mentioned.

I'll still challenge you to point out the original version of the Bible instead of asking a muslim to present one to you.

Peace.

Well, I thought that when you suggested that I picked up an original copy of the Bible, you might have one yourself before you could know that there was an original copy. I am aware of at least four English translations (three of which are in my library) of the Qur'an - YusufAli, Pickthal, Shakir, and Maududi. There's always a disclaimer by Muslim scholars and institutions using any translation of the Qur'an in any language, because they believe that "any translation of the Qur'an immediately ceases to be the literal word of Allah, and hence cannot be equated with the Qur'an in its original Arabic form." Granted. However, if someone who's not versed in Arabic attempts to understand the literal word of Allah, how is this possible since the translation he or she would be using in any language "ceases to be the literal word of Allah" and so cannot be trusted as such? That is why those who attempt to quote the English translations of the Qur'an on this forum are not really quoting the word of Allah by that same rule.

As for the Bible, I may not have a copy of the "original" as they appear in the original languages. If that is an excuse for people to denounce the Bible altogether as the Word of God, I'd always ask them to kindly provide me with what they know to be the original Bible. Isn't it somewhat amusing that most religions claim that our Bibles have been corrupted from the original, and yet they don't know what the original really says? I don't take such claims to superior knowledge seriously until those who level such accusations are able to produce a copy of the original before they could say for sure that other copies have been corrupted.

I have more than five trusted translations on my shelf; but in comparing them and using study helps like Bible dictionaries, encyclopedias, concordances and others, I could discern between what is true and what is spurious in the many "versions" that inundate the book market. Shades of meanings from the original languages (Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek) become less ambiguous and the truths come forth in a real sense. Jesus said in Matt.5:18 that till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle (smallest stroke of an alphabet) would not pass from the Law until all be fulfilled. That has been very helpful as a guide in my studies in seeking to better understand my faith in Christianity. The fact that the Bible has weathered multiplied attacks from various quarters down through the ages does not make it lose its authenticity of claim to divine and infallible revelation. What is important at the end of the day is whether one understands its message and seeks to obey its truths. I can guarantee you that the truths of the Bible have been proven in my life and experiences many times over - and I'm sure multiplied others know that the Bible most certainly validates its own truths in a very real sense.

A very pleasant week ahead to you.

9ijaMan:

If Jesus has God's spirit in him, would you mind telling me which spirit you have in you? If you have God's spirit in you too, then u are not any different from Jesus, hence there's only one God. Not 2 or 3 gods!

Abeg who are the "We" that killed him (Jesus)? That statement should be refering to those who supposedly killed him. How am I supposed to be counted amongst those who killed him, when I wasn't even born then. Besides the bible also states that:
[center]Each is responsible for his own actions, a son does not bear guilt for his father's sins(EZEK 18:19-20).
[/center]
Or would you count yourself amongst those who killed him?

Here again Jesus says he's not got the power to do things on his own but by the will of God Who sent him.
Jesus also says he was sent by the Father: does that mean Jesus is a messenger?


Please shed more light here o!

1.) I had my own spirit. I am only connected to my mother and father by DNA, which is FLESH. Jesus has Gods spirit in him but was also the CHOSEN one.

Jesus answered, "For sure, I tell you, unless a man is born of water and of the Spirit of God, he cannot get into the holy nation of God"

When i became a child of God i became born of Gods spirit.

2.)No way! The reason why i said "we" was because i was speaking as Human, yes it wasn't me and you as individuals that killed him Jesus but it was part of the Human race.

3.) Jesus had may tasks to do on earth. He saved the sin of all man by sacrificing his own life, he preached, he healed people. Overall he shed light on the whole world. He was much more than a messenger. But the Messiah.

Softee:

1.) I had my own spirit. I am only connected to my mother and father by DNA, which is FLESH. Jesus has Gods spirit in him but was also the CHOSEN one.

Softee,

As Christians, it's better to be on safe grounds by stating the rubrics of our faith as clearly as the Word of God shows us. By stating that "Jesus had God's spirit in Him", you're making a non-committal statement that could be easily taken out of context to mean just anything a non-Christian wants it to mean. While I would not attempt to force my theology on anyone, perhaps it might help to see the uniqueness of Jesus Christ in contrast to other prophets.

1. "Jesus Had God's Spirit in Him" Does Not Confirm His Deity

When Jesus asked His disciples, "Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?", among their responses was that some people thought Jesus was one of the prophets_{Matt.16:13-14}. One characteristic of the prophets and chosen servants was that they had God's Spirit in them: as Bezaleel (Exo.31:2-3); Moses and the seventy elders (Num.11:25), David (I Sam.16:13), and Ezekiel (Ezek.2:2). If the uniqueness of Jesus Christ was simply that He had God's Spirit in Him, He would not be any different from the prophets of the past; and in order to correct that misconception, Jesus pressed His question more directly upon His disciples that led Peter to confess Him as the Son of the living God_{Matt.16:15-17} - a title that no other prophet assumed, and which was most definitely pointing to His deity than to His humanity.

2. Jesus Himself Claimed Deity

More than just having God's Spirit in Him_{(John 3:34 and Acts 10:38)} , Jesus claimed divine titles for Himself in a way that no other prophet has done. Notice how that He claimed to be Lord in John 13:13 - "Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am." Indeed, some have queried the import of that claim by asserting that others too were called 'lord.' If indeed they were claiming the very same thing that Jesus was claiming, why then did He further ask them the question of Who He really was in Matt.22:43? Notice this in verses 41-45:

⁴¹While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
⁴²Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
⁴³He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
⁴⁴The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
⁴⁵If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

I'll offer you this: the Lordship of Jesus Christ points to His deity, and that is what He had often maintained in His life and teachings. A diehard Jewish conservative never called David 'Lord'; neither did he call Moses or the other prophets by that title. But when he encountered the risen and living Christ, no one forced him to confess it; but the first thing that came through his lips was the divine title by which he called Jesus on the Damascus road: "And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."_{Acts 9:5} You know I was referring to Saul who later became the apostle Paul.

I trust you'll see this and state it as clearly as the Bible does. The uniqueness of Jesus Christ goes far beyond having God's Spirit upon Him in His humanity - He was the divine Son of God, and His divinity sets Him apart from everyone else. If we are not careful to firmly let our enquirers see this, the confusion will grow out of proportion, and will lead to remarks like 9ijaMan's in his reply to yours: "If you have God's spirit in you too, then u are not any different from Jesus." Jesus is indeed Lord - and as we read in John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Many blessings.

choice.A:

Well, I thought that when you suggested that I picked up an original copy of the Bible, you might have one yourself before you could know that there was an original copy. I am aware of at least four English translations (three of which are in my library) of the Qur'an - YusufAli, Pickthal, Shakir, and Maududi. There's always a disclaimer by Muslim scholars and institutions using any translation of the Qur'an in any language, because they believe that "any translation of the Qur'an immediately ceases to be the literal word of Allah, and hence cannot be equated with the Qur'an in its original Arabic form." Granted. However, if someone who's not versed in Arabic attempts to understand the literal word of Allah, how is this possible since the translation he or she would be using in any language "ceases to be the literal word of Allah" and so cannot be trusted as such? That is why those who attempt to quote the English translations of the Qur'an on this forum are not really quoting the word of Allah by that same rule.

As for the Bible, I may not have a copy of the "original" as they appear in the original languages. If that is an excuse for people to denounce the Bible altogether as the Word of God, I'd always ask them to kindly provide me with what they know to be the original Bible. Isn't it somewhat amusing that most religions claim that our Bibles have been corrupted from the original, and yet they don't know what the original really says? I don't take such claims to superior knowledge seriously until those who level such accusations are able to produce a copy of the original before they could say for sure that other copies have been corrupted.

I have more than five trusted translations on my shelf; but in comparing them and using study helps like Bible dictionaries, encyclopedias, concordances and others, I could discern between what is true and what is spurious in the many "versions" that inundate the book market. Shades of meanings from the original languages (Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek) become less ambiguous and the truths come forth in a real sense. Jesus said in Matt.5:18 that till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle (smallest stroke of an alphabet) would not pass from the Law until all be fulfilled. That has been very helpful as a guide in my studies in seeking to better understand my faith in Christianity. The fact that the Bible has weathered multiplied attacks from various quarters down through the ages does not make it lose its authenticity of claim to divine and infallible revelation. What is important at the end of the day is whether one understands its message and seeks to obey its truths. I can guarantee you that the truths of the Bible have been proven in my life and experiences many times over - and I'm sure multiplied others know that the Bible most certainly validates its own truths in a very real sense.

A very pleasant week ahead to you.

Thank you for making it clearer for me. This was what i was originally trying to say but it didn't come out this clear. We thank God for your life!

choice.A:

Softee,

As Christians, it's better to be on safe grounds by stating the rubrics of our faith as clearly as the Word of God shows us. By stating that "Jesus had God's spirit in Him", you're making a non-committal statement that could be easily taken out of context to mean just anything a non-Christian wants it to mean. While I would not attempt to force my theology on anyone, perhaps it might help to see the uniqueness of Jesus Christ in contrast to other prophets.

1. "Jesus Had God's Spirit in Him" Does Not Confirm His Deity

When Jesus asked His disciples, "Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?", among their responses was that some people thought Jesus was one of the prophets_{Matt.16:13-14}. One characteristic of the prophets and chosen servants was that they had God's Spirit in them: as Bezaleel (Exo.31:2-3); Moses and the seventy elders (Num.11:25), David (I Sam.16:13), and Ezekiel (Ezek.2:2). If the uniqueness of Jesus Christ was simply that He had God's Spirit in Him, He would not be any different from the prophets of the past; and in order to correct that misconception, Jesus pressed His question more directly upon His disciples that led Peter to confess Him as the Son of the living God_{Matt.16:15-17} - a title that no other prophet assumed, and which was most definitely pointing to His deity than to His humanity.

2. Jesus Himself Claimed Deity

More than just having God's Spirit in Him_{(John 3:34 and Acts 10:38)} , Jesus claimed divine titles for Himself in a way that no other prophet has done. Notice how that He claimed to be Lord in John 13:13 - "Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am." Indeed, some have queried the import of that claim by asserting that others too were called 'lord.' If indeed they were claiming the very same thing that Jesus was claiming, why then did He further ask them the question of Who He really was in Matt.22:43? Notice this in verses 41-45:

⁴¹While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
⁴²Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
⁴³He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
⁴⁴The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
⁴⁵If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

I'll offer you this: the Lordship of Jesus Christ points to His deity, and that is what He had often maintained in His life and teachings. A diehard Jewish conservative never called David 'Lord'; neither did he call Moses or the other prophets by that title. But when he encountered the risen and living Christ, no one forced him to confess it; but the first thing that came through his lips was the divine title by which he called Jesus on the Damascus road: "And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."_{Acts 9:5} You know I was referring to Saul who later became the apostle Paul.

I trust you'll see this and state it as clearly as the Bible does. The uniqueness of Jesus Christ goes far beyond having God's Spirit upon Him in His humanity - He was the divine Son of God, and His divinity sets Him apart from everyone else. If we are not careful to firmly let our enquirers see this, the confusion will grow out of proportion, and will lead to remarks like 9ijaMan's in his reply to yours: "If you have God's spirit in you too, then u are not any different from Jesus." Jesus is indeed Lord - and as we read in John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Many blessings.

Sorry i was referring to this quote!!

Softee:

Sorry i was referring to this quote!!

Welcome anytime. And be much encouraged in your faith - Jesus loves you!!

And You Too!!

it means nothing

if God was good, bad things could not happen.

God is good and he does not make the bad stuff happen.

If everything that happens is God's will, then he makes the bad things happen. Otherwise, it would be impossible to say that only God makes good things happen. That would mean the devil made good things happen too. And if the devil makes good things happen, then what is so bad about the devil? That would essentially mean that God and the devil do the same things for humans.

God at times let bad things happen to show his glory ,
to let us know that he is God expecially when we turn away from him, his ways are not ourways
God never intend to let bad things happen ,
God had a plan for job" in the bible the only reason why he allowed the devil to tempt him was because he wanted to show his glory god knew that job could stand all those stuff that's why he allowed it. also keep in mind that god will never allow anything bad to happen to you if he know that u can't handle it like it says in the bible "ur ways are not my ways say the lord"
even in the garden of eden he gave adam and eve the knowledge of good and evil, bad things wouldnt have happen in the begining if eve hadnt desobey, the day they touched the forbidden fruit bad things will happen and,
God didnt create this world so we can suffer, or controlled our decisions, thats why he gave us the knowledge of good and evil


the devils does not do any good work, if he does he worldnt be the devil(nothing good comes from the devil just so u know)
in order for the devil to do anything"good" for u u gotta make a bond with him (selling your soul, killin a family memeber, so on and so forth) now tell me is that really doing good? hell naw then if u do decided not to do business with him again u know what he does he will make u suffer . but god on the other hand give u a second chance always now that's whats up.

Funny how the "good" God's plan involves the suffering of countless trillions of people when he could have easily made it otherwise.

Perhaps people should stop pretending God is "good".

Funny how the "good" God's plan involves the suffering of countless trillions of people when he could have easily made it otherwise.

then what kind of a god would he be then