ritchboy:

They have not accepted mediocrity, they've built a multi-million pound stadium to ensure they'll be able to compete/win in the long run. Accepting mediocrity would be staying at Highbury and falling by the wayside financially, which would inevitably lead to on-field disaster.

Yes, a better coach might have won something with this squad, but the million dollar question is would Mr Better Coach have been able to assemble the squad to begin with on the budget Wenger has had to work with?

Is it not a testament to the man's genius he's been able to build a squad you feel should be winning titles with a fraction of what his rivals have spent on transfer fees and wages? People are always quick to sweep this part under the carpet all in the name of discrediting Wenger, but if i show you the figures your jaw will drop 21 stories.

A Wenger disciple I see. I try not to respond to your likes but I always fail.

1. The club would have moved to a bigger stadium under Wenger stewardship or not. Arsenal has always been a premier club and not a pauperish club so kudos to them for doing that sooner than later. It was inevitable cos Highbury was bursting at its seams. As an Arsenal fan, I always disliked watching matches at Highbury cos you could use one camera to cover the whole pitch. For real. Which brings me to the second point.

2. The 'mighty' budget you talk about, please tell us since you know it is so small, how much has Wenger been given for the past ten years to shop? Do you think its peanuts? It is usu not as much as man City, man Utd or chelsea, but I ask is it peanuts?  What of our player sales? Do you know how many time Wenger has returned funds to the board stating that he doesnt need reinforcements?

3. Thirdly, like I said, it is not the players. These crop of players can win something (domestic trophies most likely) but their mentality is so poor. Mourinho's aura alone makes the players believe they will die for him & the club.

Keep your faith in Wenger. I will patiently wait for him to leave so we can rebuild from scratch.

'Madness is doing the same thing over & over again and expecting different results.' Keeping Wenger because of 'his genius' is a silly gamble. For the umpteenth time, which world class coach goes 6yrs trophyless at an already established club which he understands the ins & outs? Not one continental trophy throughout his coaching career? I rest my case.

proudly9ja:

12 months ago, I said it clearly and I still maintain that Arsenal had the best team  in the premiership. We messed up not because we lacked quality but because we lacked mental strength. I have been arguing this all through the season and don't intend to do that again now.

And as Eldee and I told you times without number, that is a preposterous assertion at best and outright self-delusion at worst.

How can Arsenal have the best team in the premiership when NONE of our GKs would get a look in at the top 4 clubs (not even as second choice), none of our LBs would get a look in at a top 4 club, only one of our CBs (TV5) would get a look in at a top 4 club?

Our defence is EASILY the worst in the top 6, except for maybe Tottenham, so how can we have the best team in the premiership?

There is absolutely no basis for such a comment - our team hasn't even been close to being the best in the EPL, except in 2007/08, where our strong showing in the EPL team of the season reflected that strength.

The only area we can claim to be the strongest is in midfield - our attacking midfield collection is better than those at any club in the EPL. That aside, we are not the best in squad terms in any guise.

proudly9ja:

Even Robin agrees we lack ambition!

Yet Robin did not mention 'ambition' once in the article?  

Safe to say you'll read your hackneyed conclusions into ANY article published out there. He says you should not engage in delusion by saying you will win the league when you have obvious flaws in house - how is that agreeing there is a lack of ambition?

renewnaija:

'Madness is doing the same thing over & over again and expecting different results.' Keeping Wenger because of 'his genius' is a silly gamble. For the umpteenth time, which world class coach goes 6yrs trophyless at an already established club which he understands the ins & outs? Not one continental trophy throughout his coaching career? I rest my case.

who would you replace wenger with? like you said. . . .he understands the ins and outs of the club so he's probably the best hands to steer the arsenal ship back to glory. i agree wenger is a failure but i don't quite see anyone else better at doing the arsenal job at the moment unless the whole youth policy mantra is shredded and that means arsenal having to endure another 3-5 yrs in the dark trying to rebuild a new squad from the scratch.
can arsenal fans endure another 5 years without glory?

coogar:

same difference. valencia valued him at £40 million, barcelona matched the value and they paid to get david villa. whether chelsea paid £200 million to get torres is immaterial here cos it's not chelsea that are now valuing cesc to buy, it's barcelona.

Arsenal/Valencia/the selling club are the ones doing the valuation that matters(the transfer fee/asking price), whether Barcelona value the player at 50kobo is irrelevant.

besides that, torres is easily in the top 5 centre forwards in europe. same cannot be said about cesc fabregas in the midfield.

The top 5 center-forwards can be of lower quality than the top 5 midfielders and vice versa. Can you name 5 midfielders better than Cesc without looking like a foool?

renewnaija:

A Wenger disciple I see. I try not to respond to your likes but I always fail.

I try not to respond to half-wits but i'll make an exception.

1. The club would have moved to a bigger stadium under Wenger stewardship or not. Arsenal has always been a premier club and not a pauperish club so kudos to them for doing that sooner than later. It was inevitable cos Highbury was bursting at its seams. As an Arsenal fan, I always disliked watching matches at Highbury cos you could use one camera to cover the whole pitch. For real. Which brings me to the second point.

I haven't said otherwise, your desire to undermine Wenger has gotten the better of you.

2. The 'mighty' budget you talk about, please tell us since you know it is so small, how much has Wenger been given for the past ten years to shop? Do you think its peanuts? It is usu not as much as man City, man Utd or chelsea, but I ask is it peanuts?

It IS peanuts compared to what those clubs have spent. It isn't peanuts compared to the rest of the league, which is why Arsenal have done better than the rest of the league. As you can see, money plays a massive role.

What of our player sales? Do you know how many time Wenger has returned funds to the board stating that he doesnt need reinforcements?

How did you get this information? Goal.com?

3. Thirdly, like I said, it is not the players. These crop of players can win something (domestic trophies most likely) but their mentality is so poor. Mourinho's aura alone makes the players believe they will die for him & the club.

Also like i said, i agree a "better coach" can get more from these players, but you cannot eat your cake and have it. Would a glory-hunter like Mourinho have been able to build the squad Wenger has under the circumstances?

Keep your faith in Wenger. I will patiently wait for him to leave so we can rebuild from scratch.

And if Wenger leaves today, can you give me a shortlist of managers you'd hire if you were in charge? I'm in need of some comic relief.

My faith is not in Wenger, it's in Arsenal F.C.

coogar:

who would you replace wenger with? like you said. . . .he understands the ins and outs of the club so he's probably the best hands to steer the arsenal ship back to glory. i agree wenger is a failure but i don't quite see anyone else better at doing the arsenal job at the moment unless the whole youth policy mantra is shredded and that means arsenal having to endure another 3-5 yrs in the dark trying to rebuild a new squad from the scratch.
can arsenal fans endure another 5 years without glory?

Again for the umpteenth time:
Pep (who will leave Barca soon)
Rijkaard
Guus Hiddink
Louis van Gaal

All these people candidates believe in the youth & they didnt break their club's banks b4 winning trophies so the team cannot collapse. I'm sure people like you didnt believe Benitez or Mourinho would win a trophy in their first season preferring to say they will endure 5 yrs without glory.

People should understand football. Its like project manangement. Assess what you have. Assess your short & long term objectives. Then become the bridge. A new coach will do this & work accordingly. Our trademark football is already there which makes it easy. The thing is the squad and their way of play is already established. Only thing remaining is belief & the will to win which i can guarantee all these above can deliver. Just a few tweaks and a driving force and they would be okay. There will be no total collapse or 5 yr transition period as you claim.

Also these people I mentioned are winners, play beautiful and will attract the creme de la creme of football talent to the club. And this is just the foundation.
And guess what? There are already established coaches. Alternatively why not gamble on some upcoming coach like Villa-Boas and dudes like him?

I refuse to accept that we continue in this mediocritic culture of excuses which Arsene & his disciples are following.

coogar:

who would you replace wenger with? like you said. . . .he understands the ins and outs of the club so he's probably the best hands to steer the arsenal ship back to glory. i agree wenger is a failure but i don't quite see anyone else better at doing the arsenal job at the moment unless the whole youth policy mantra is shredded and that means arsenal having to endure another 3-5 yrs in the dark trying to rebuild a new squad from the scratch.
can arsenal fans endure another 5 years without glory?

There are a million coaches all over Europe and the world.

Wasnt this Messiah Wenger from the awesome Japanese league, AT worst get another coach from the J league and he would do the same thing,

Where did Porto get Boas from? Where did Barcelona get Pep from? I heard Luis Enriqueis about getting his coaching job at Roma, WHat happened to Didier Deschamps, Laurent Blanc, Louis Van Gaal, even the gazillion coaches in the Dutch league who play a similar pattern etc.

Everyone knows Wenger has an intellectual ceiling, he is over 60 and has shown all he can do for the past 30yrs which is 4 league titles and 0 Continental title.

Why not take the next step and see what the next coach would do, If man Utd didnt take the step and sack Atkinson, Would they even know what Ferguson wa capable of doing?

I mean Wenger has been at the job for over 15yrs, Are you seriously expecting a new trick that we havent seen in the previous 15?

In this age with a club like Arsenal thats already a middle-top club it doesnt take 3-5yrs to build a team and win something. LvGaal almost won a treble in his first year, Mourinho did in his second, Guardiola did in his first, How many years has Boas coached Porto before he won

mourinho is waiting

ritchboy:

Arsenal/Valencia/the selling club are the ones doing the valuation that matters(the transfer fee/asking price), whether Barcelona value the player at 50kobo is irrelevant.

barcelona are the only common factor in the transfer saga of david villa and cesc fabregas. valencia and arsenal are not the same club so it really bores down to what barca feels about the transfer fees.

The top 5 center-forwards can be of lower quality than the top 5 midfielders and vice versa. Can you name 5 midfielders better than Cesc without looking like a foool?

why should they be of lower quality?
asking me this question makes you a foool already . . . . .5 midfielders better than cesc? i will name 10 but then you once claimed cesc is better than iniesta so i wouldn't go into any tedious tussle with you. at the end of the day, it will sink down to everyone's opinion.

renewnaija:

Again for the umpteenth time:
Pep (who will leave Barca soon)

pep won't come to arsenal - he is leaving barca for a rest not joining another ship.

Rijkaard
Guus Hiddink
Louis van Gaal

there's no guarantee all these names will steer arsenal back to glory. chelsea have employed jose, ancelotti, scolari, ranieri, hiddink, etc in the last 7 years and none of them was able to win in europe. had chelsea stuck to one of them in the last seven years, we would be saying. . . if only they had hired hiddink or hired van gaal. nothing is guaranteed.

All these people candidates believe in the youth & they didnt break their club's banks b4 winning trophies so the team cannot collapse. I'm sure people like you didnt believe Benitez or Mourinho would win a trophy in their first season preferring to say they will endure 5 yrs without glory.

if it's about winning a trophy(excluding premier league, champions league), then i have no doubt one of these managers would achieve that - but the current bunch of players in arsenal will not win in europe. . . .and they wont win the league title.

People should understand football. Its like project manangement. Assess what you have. Assess your short & long term objectives. Then become the bridge. A new coach will do this & work accordingly. Our trademark football is already there which makes it easy. The thing is the squad and their way of play is already established. Only thing remaining is belief & the will to win which i can guarantee all these above can deliver. Just a few tweaks and a driving force and they would be okay. There will be no total collapse or 5 yr transition period as you claim.

so you think a back five of almunia-sagna-koscielny-squillaci-clichy will win a league title under mourinho? it's not that bread and butter. getting a good manager is just 40% of the job, assembling new players is the only thing that will make the project complete. roman signing mourinho wasn't the only ingridient to chelsea's success - the money spent to acquire the players played more role than jose's tactical acumen and arsenal don't have that kind of money to splash - we are talking about over £400 million outlay.

Also these people I mentioned are winners, play beautiful and will attract the creme de la creme of football talent to the club. And this is just the foundation. And guess what? There are already established coaches. Alternatively why not gamble on some upcoming coach like Villa-Boas and dudes like him?

villa-boas is a rookie. there's no absolute guarantee he can thrive in the premier league where the media can be very hostile with a run of few bad results. scolari buckled under media pressure(a world cup winning manager), jose also lost his mojo in 2007 to the point of classifying his own players into class a and class d eggs.

I refuse to accept that we continue in this mediocritic culture of excuses which Arsene & his disciples are following.

there seems to be no solution on the horizon. . . . .

@ coogar

I think you have to wake up & stop this defeatist attitude which is characteristic with many Arsenal fans.

You mention the word 'guarantee' lots of times. Is it not better to try something new & fresh than not trying something @ all? You baffle me a lot.
I'm sure you support the same recycled politicians in Nigeria saying what good can the new blood do? No?

You mention that ' the money spent to acquire the players played more role than jose's tactical acumen' Really? Is it the money that has made him a huge success in every club he goes to? What do want him to do to prove himself? Coach Rangers?

I'm sorry if you don't see a solution in the horizon but I do & its a very clear solution to me. If you dont see it, then thats too bad. We are here to air out our progressive views and debate about our beloved club. That's how it starts. Little drops make an ocean. People like you give up without trying.

You should read the book 'Who moved my cheese.' You might learn a lot.

No guts, no glory.

villa-boas is a rookie. there's no absolute guarantee he can thrive in the premier league where the media can be very hostile with a run of few bad results. scolari buckled under media pressure(a world cup winning manager), jose also lost his mojo in 2007 to the point of classifying his own players into class a and class d eggs.

Pep was also a rookie hope you know,

You know there was no guarantee in 1986 that SA would even win a league title never mind 12 in his Man Utd tenure.

The thing is, we know what Wenger can do and you know his ceiling, Give Wenger the world 11, even make him coach of Barcelona he would still end up trophyless. He doesnt have the mental ability to coach a team to continental success and he is showing that he cant thrive in a competitive environment that the EPL has become.

He has exhausted all excuses, He has spent 15yrs and played 2 CL semis in that time so we cant argue that he needs time.

He has spent 30yrs as a coach so his best years are behind him,

With Wenger its 100% that he cant win anything of note in Europe, with Boas and co its still 50-50, WHich path makes sense to follow? The 0% chance or the 50% chance

@Renewnaija, Cougar is the last person you would call an Arsenal fan maybe wose than me sef

dayokanu:

.The thing is, we know what Wenger can do and you know his ceiling, Give Wenger the world 11, even make him coach of Barcelona he would still end up trophyless.

What a deluded, confuzzled twit. Yet Wenger has won 3 EPL titles and numerous FA cups.

Next time keep your mouth shut - even f0ols appear intelligent when they shut up.

renewnaija:

@ coogar
I think you have to wake up & stop this defeatist attitude which is characteristic with many Arsenal fans.

not an arsenal fan. . . .just looking at things from a vantage point.

You mention the word 'guarantee' lots of times. Is it not better to try something new & fresh than not trying something @ all? You baffle me a lot.
I'm sure you support the same recycled politicians in Nigeria saying what good can the new blood do? No?

i hate politics. i don't give a hoot about old school or new breed politicians in nigeria. all of them are rogues.

You mention that ' the money spent to acquire the players played more role than jose's tactical acumen' Really? Is it the money that has made him a huge success in every club he goes to? What do want him to do to prove himself? Coach Rangers?

porto had the most cash in portugal in 2002-2004
chelsea were the richest in europe in 2004-2007
inter spent tonnes of cash in italy in 2008-2010
madrid spent the most cash in the planet in 2010 - 20XX

without the cash, jose is nothing.

I'm sorry if you don't see a solution in the horizon but I do & its a very clear solution to me. If you dont see it, then thats too bad. We are here to air out our progressive views and debate about our beloved club. That's how it starts. Little drops make an ocean. People like you give up without trying.

You should read the book 'Who moved my cheese.' You might learn a lot.

No guts, no glory.

easier said than done. roman abramovic is obsessed with winning the champions league. since 2003, he has used the following managers. . . .
ranieri, mourinho, grant, scolari, hiddink, ancelotti and none of them has been able to win the big ears. matter of fact, only one of them(a badgeless manager) reached the european final.

applying this scenario to arsenal, what is to say van gaal, boas villas, jose or pep will win the premier league with arsenal who have to compete with chelsea(££££) man city(more ££££££££), man utd(lord fergie) and liverpool(motivated to catch united's 19th league title). people forget the premier league is not other european leagues where there's a huge gulf between top 2 teams and the rest. . . . . .man city and tottenham have closed the gap now so any manager coming to arsenal will have his work cut-out.

it's one thing for villa-boas to win in portugal, it's another thing for him to take arsenal(a poor club in terms of cash) into glory. . . . . . .if the managers you listed are joining chelsea or man city, i will say the possibility is 90%. . . .but joining arsenal?? come on, mate. . . .be realistic. how do you expect guardiola to work with denilson or chamakh? put duracell batteries in their lungs?

debosky:

What a deluded, confuzzled twit. Yet Wenger has won 3 EPL titles and numerous FA cups.

Next time keep your mouth shut - even f0ols appear intelligent when they shut up.

4 league titles and 0 continental title in a 30yr career is hardly anything to be proud of

coogar:

porto had the most cash in portugal in 2002-2004

But they not only won in Portugal, they won in Europe 2 times, And I bet his Porto budget is about 10% of the clubs in Europe in that time.

chelsea were the richest in europe in 2004-2007
inter spent tonnes of cash in italy in  2008-2010
madrid spent the most cash in the planet in  2010 - 20XX

without the cash, jose is nothing.

I cant say that Jose in Inter spent more than everyone else in Europe. His purchase balace sheet in Inter wont look so bad given that he flipped Zlatan for a huge profit, got others for a bargain.

Mourinho in Madrid has bought who? Di Maria, Ozil and Khedira, Sahin and Altintop are cheap buys f those 5 buys only Di maria cost a lot.

applying this scenario to arsenal, what is to say van gaal, boas villas, jose or pep will win the premier league with arsenal who have to compete with chelsea(££££) man city(more ££££££££), man utd(lord fergie) and liverpool(motivated to catch united's 19th league title). people forget the premier league is not other european leagues where there's a huge gulf between top 2 teams and the rest. . . . . .man city and tottenham have closed the gap now so any manager coming to arsenal will have his work cut-out.

Any manager coming to Arsenal like I say has his work cut out and has a chance of winning, with Wenger the chances of winning the league or CL is non existent.

it's one thing for villa-boas to win in portugal, it's another thing for him to take arsenal(a poor club in terms of cash) into glory. . . . . . .if the managers you listed are joining chelsea or man city, i will say the possibility is 90%. . . .but joining arsenal?? come on, mate. . . .be realistic. how do you expect guardiola to work with denilson or chamakh? put duracell batteries in their lungs?

I bet the same thing can be said about SAF when he was leaving Aberdeen for man Utd.

Let me re-phrase it

it's one thing for Ferguson to win in lowly Scotland, it's another thing for him to take Man Utd(a lowly club in terms of current position) into glory. . . . . . .

At that time the English league was the best in Europe before the Heysel disaster. How did a manager from Scottish league one of the worst in Europe achieve all that he did?

In his first 15 years at Man Utd despite the European ban, SAF had won 1 CL, 1 winners cup and 7 league titles (Only losers count FA cups which Portsmouth of these world can win from relegation)

Draw Parallels with Wenger who took over a top club in England and has gone 15yrs given a free hand to work

dayokanu:

But they not only won in Portugal, they won in Europe 2 times, And I bet his Porto budget is about 10% of the clubs in Europe in that time.

yes, they won uefa cup and the champions league but they had the most money in portugal. the uefa cup was basically against minnows in europe. the champions league was a fluke . okay, i am not trying to knock jose's achievements here - he did well winning those stuffs but that could be because they were by far the strongest club in portugal in that era. the competition in the league was non-existent and so they could focus on europe without worrying about winning their league.

I cant say that Jose in Inter spent more than everyone else in Europe. His purchase balace sheet in Inter wont look so bad given that he flipped Zlatan for a huge profit, got others for a bargain.

but jose had the most money in serie a. yes, he made some smart purchases with the zlatan fee and the rest was history. i wish english clubs can find the premier league as easy as their continental counterparts. jose blew everything on his path out of the water and once that was achieved, the focus on europe became unshaken.

Mourinho in Madrid has bought who? Di Maria, Ozil and Khedira, Sahin and Altintop are cheap buys f those 5 buys only Di maria cost a lot.

but he's using ronaldo(world's most expensive player) and the other world class players he had inherited. even with that, he could only come 2nd to pep's barcelona.

Any manager coming to Arsenal like I say has his work cut out and has a chance of winning, with Wenger the chances of winning the league or CL is non existent.

i agree wenger's chances of winning are non-existent and i also believe no manager can win the league or cl with the current bunch of players in arsenal. the whole squad must be revamped completely to achieve that. almunia, diaby, fabianski, koscielny, eboue, denilson, walcott, chamakh, bendtner, etc. what can one win with those? let's be serious here.

I bet the same thing can be said about SAF when he was leaving Aberdeen for man Utd.

that era was different. . . . .and again, fergie had to sack the players he inherited and he started from the scratch. the process gave him 5 years - the exact period i suggested arsenal would have to wait if they sign a new manager.

Let me re-phrase it

it's one thing for Ferguson to win in lowly Scotland, it's another thing for him to take Man Utd(a lowly club in terms of current position) into glory. . . . . . .

it took him 5 years. . . . .can arsenal wait that long? considering the nature of their finances. they have been barren for 6 years, another 5 years means more than a decade lurking in the shadow without a trophy. there's a possibility they wouldn't play in elite europe. to be frank, arsenal's finances would suffer - something the board wouldn't want.

At that time the English league was the best in Europe before the Heysel disaster. How did a manager from Scottish league one of the worst in Europe achieve all that he did?

time and space. he was given a load of time to steer the ship in the right direction. arsenal don't have that in this era of results/performance.

In his first 15 years at Man Utd despite the European ban, SAF had won 1 CL, 1 winners cup and 7 league titles (Only losers count FA cups which Portsmouth of these world can win from relegation)

Draw Parallels with Wenger who took over a top club in England and has gone 15yrs given a free hand to work

i know wenger has not covered himself in glory with his record and comparing him to fergie is like kicking wenger in the groin. however, i still think sacking le prof now will destroy the stability in arsenal. as it is now, they are very stable - although they might not win any trophy but they are guaranteed a champions league place every season which translates to £££££. the board is completely satisfied with the cash flow. any other thing at this stage is purely academic.

Only losers count the FA Cup, yet Citeh are being celebrated as a team that has 'arrived' because they won the FA Cup. Only losers count the FA Cup yet Chelski were unable to win the league and cup double for eons, even the much vaunted JM couldn't do it.

Dayokanu = Idiocy personified.

Secondly, we hear about Fergie's success in the EPL and then contrast that against Wenger - fair point, they are the two longest serving managers. However, despite Wenger's so called 'poor' performers, he has still done better than virtually all the EPL managers apart from Ferguson, especially when the resources available to him are put into consideration.

Sadly, functional illiterates like DK can only compare outputs without having the mental lucidity to compare inputs on the same basis.

dayokanu:


Draw Parallels with Wenger who took over a top club in England and has gone 15yrs given a free hand to work

You make it sound as if Arsene joined a club at the peak of its powers - he didn't. The club was not in good shape - the season before Wenger joined, Arsenal finished 19 points behind the league winners, barely managed to get into the UEFA cup (only managed it on the last day), and was knocked out of the FA Cup by championship side Sheffield United at the time.

One more comment, if Arsenal were such a 'top club' When Wenger joined, how come they hadn't won the title for 6 years before Wenger arrived? How come Arsenal had failed to win the FA cup or League Cup for 4 years??

dayokanu:

4 league titles and 0 continental title in a 30yr career is hardly anything to be proud of

I guess Redknapp and Hodgson should go and jump into the Thames then, because they've had long careers and not achieved as much as Wenger.

More evidence to disprove the top club bunkum

Season Manager Position
1991/2 Graham 4th
1992/3 Graham 10th
1993/4 Graham 4th
1994/5 Graham (dismissed) 12th
1995/6 Rioch 5th

If that is a top club yoyo-ing between 4th and 10th, then I wonder what you would call a championship winning side.

debosky:

Only losers count the FA Cup, yet Citeh are being celebrated as a team that has 'arrived' because they won the FA Cup. Only losers count the FA Cup yet Chelski were unable to win the league and cup double for eons, even the much vaunted JM couldn't do it.

Dayokanu =  Idiocy personified.

Debos stupidity is a rare and unique one. Because my neighbour celebrated buying a Volkwagen Bettle now means it is a top car?

Top grade stupidity on display.

Why should anyone be bothered with your lunatic ranting?

Secondly, we  hear about Fergie's success in the EPL and then contrast that against Wenger - fair point, they are the two longest serving managers. However, despite Wenger's so called 'poor' performers, he has still done better than virtually all the EPL managers apart from Ferguson, especially when the resources available to him are put into consideration.

Thy are the two longest serving managers so who should we compare Wenger to? Tony Adams or who?

Sadly, functional illiterates like DK can only compare outputs without having the mental lucidity to compare inputs on the same basis.

You make it sound as if Arsene joined a club at the peak of its powers - he didn't. The club was not in good shape - the season before Wenger joined, Arsenal finished 19 points behind the league winners, barely managed to get into the UEFA cup (only managed it on the last day), and was knocked out of the FA Cup by championship side Sheffield United at the time.

In 2005 Man Utd finished 18points behind the league winners, So assuming a new manager took over Mn Utd in 2006, We would say he did not inherit a top club?

Leeds United eliminated top clubs from the FA cup in recent yrs

One more comment, if Arsenal were such a 'top club' When Wenger joined, how come they hadn't won the title for 6 years before Wenger arrived? How come Arsenal had failed to win the FA cup or League Cup for 4 years??

Based on this comment, That must mean Arsenal is not a top club at the moment since they have even done worse? They havent won the title for 7yrs and failed for win FA cup or League cup for 6yrs.

I guess Redknapp and Hodgson should go and jump into the Thames then, because they've had long careers and not achieved as much as Wenger.

How many of those coaches have enjoyed a long uninterrupted stay at one club like Wenger has.

4 league titles, 0 continental title in 27yrs as a coach? Thats woeful by any consideration.

You are free to compare Wenger with any fellow failure as well maybe Ladan Bosso or Musa Abdulahi

debosky:

More evidence to disprove the top club bunkum

Season Manager Position
1991/2 Graham 4th
1992/3 Graham 10th
1993/4 Graham 4th
1994/5 Graham (dismissed) 12th
1995/6 Rioch 5th

If that is a top club yoyo-ing between 4th and 10th, then I wonder what you would call a championship winning side.

Juventus ride in the llast 4 seasons has been similar, So one would say Juventus isnt a top club.

Never mind that George Grahams Arsenal played Back to Back UEFA cup finals and won one.

@ dayokanu. I really wonder why you bothered replying these so called Wenger disciples.

@ debosky. So we should keep him because he has made us a 'top'club which we were not? After Man Utd & Liverpool, who has the third highest no of English championships? Do you think he was responsible for that? Kindly check the stats & come back.

What freshness can Wenger give now that he has not given before? 15 yrs? At an established club? Where he runs it like a dictator? And you dare mention resources as if we are a scrappy club? No. I get it. The new stadium is the excuse. If you may pls post the 'resources' that have been available to him all these years since you disciples know it is always so small.

Kindly read this thread thoroughly and answer the issues raised about Wenger before shooting off & misyarning as if the club was nothing before he came.

Otherwise just fold your hands, live out your 'next season syndrome' & pray he wins  something apart from emirates cup next yr.

Arsenal thread is already on Page 11 and season never even start. Argument about trophies and Wenger all the time Una no dey tire?

debosky:

And as Eldee and I told you times without number, that is a preposterous assertion at best and outright self-delusion at worst.

How can Arsenal have the best team in the premiership when NONE of our GKs would get a look in at the top 4 clubs (not even as second choice), none of our LBs would get a look in at a top 4 club, only one of our CBs (TV5) would get a look in at a top 4 club?

Our defence is EASILY the worst in the top 6, except for maybe Tottenham, so how can we have the best team in the premiership?

There is absolutely no basis for such a comment - our team hasn't even been close to being the best in the EPL, except in 2007/08, where our strong showing in the EPL team of the season reflected that strength.

The only area we can claim to be the strongest is in midfield - our attacking midfield collection is better than those at any club in the EPL. That aside, we are not the best in squad terms in any guise.

Yet Robin did not mention 'ambition' once in the article?  

Safe to say you'll read your hackneyed conclusions into ANY article published out there. He says you should not engage in delusion by saying you will win the league when you have obvious flaws in house - how is that agreeing there is a lack of ambition?

You are entitled to your opinion. I don't see how what you've said relate to us losing the league in the way we did. Are the top 4 teams the only teams in the premiership?

If I remember well, We got three points from Chelsea, 4 from City and 3 from United, the other teams in the top 4. Meaning we lost only 8 points from 18 max. Asides Tottenham, how did we drop points against WestBrom, Villa, Newcastle, Bolton at home? That's 12 points! 12 massive points! Was it because we did not have a good team?

As for Robin's speech, when the team's assistant captain tells you not to DELUDE (dayokanu's fav word) yourselves by thinking you will win the league, I wonder what else we should infer from that! You're the English expert.

Vice captain of the club says we make the same mistakes every year and you don't see it as madness?

proudly9ja:

Vice captain of the club says we make the same mistakes every year and you don't see it as madness?

Is making the same mistakes the same as not having ambition?

Abramovich clearly wants to win the CL, yet he keeps firing managers, basically making the same mistake. Will you now say because of that mistake doesn't have ambition to win the CL?

proudly9ja:

You are entitled to your opinion. I don't see how what you've said relate to us losing the league in the way we did. Are the top 4 teams the only teams in the premiership?

Let's get things straight - I am simply challenging your erroneous suggestion that we had 'the best side in the premiership'. We didn't - if you agree on that error you made then the argument is over.

Secondly, when we talk about 'the way we lost the league', the 'best' squad in the premiership would be able to maintain momentum after suffering setbacks in the CC, FA Cup and CL - we couldn't. [/b]That alone should tell you that the team is not the best in any guise.

If I remember well, We got three points from Chelsea, 4 from City and 3 from United, the other teams in the top 4. Meaning we lost only 8 points from 18 max. Asides Tottenham, [b]how did we drop points against WestBrom, Villa, Newcastle, Bolton at home? That's 12 points! 12 massive points! Was it because we did not have a good team?

Good but clearly not good enough. There are lots of 'good' teams in the EPL - we are discussing the 'best' team here, which is what you claimed we have. Clearly if we were the best team, we should have performed better in the games you mentioned.

The teams better than us - Chelski and Utd and Citeh did NOT drop as many points against such sides - that proves that they are better sides. If you want to compare performances, don't compare H2H with the big boys alone - as Sharon often repeats, Utd has had more than one season when their record against the top 4 was abysmal yet they won the title.

Let me point at a few examples of how not being good enough made us drop those points.

1. Against Newcastle at home, an incompetent Fabianki jumps underneath a cross allowing Carroll a free header to score.
2. Against West Brom, a Almunia concedes some unforgivable goals that even a championship keeper should save.
3. Against Villa - terrible marking in the midfield and defence allows Darren Bent to score a brace in less than 20 minutes. In one chance, the defenders play the offside trap and it fails. The second time, Vermaelen slips and no one else reacts allowing Bent to score.

PS - Arsenal didn't lose to Bolton at home, it was away.

If that is not evidence of the deficiencies in the side (i.e. not being the best) then I don't know what is.

As for Robin's speech, when the team's assistant captain tells you not to DELUDE (dayokanu's fav word) yourselves by thinking you will win the league, I wonder what else we should infer from that! You're the English expert.

It means your team isn't quite good enough - does it mean the club doesn't have the desire to win titles? Absolutely not. Robin has simply said the desire/ambition to win must be backed up with the performance on the field of play and transfers - it is not enough to desire or possess ambition to win.

Again you fail to differentiate between failing to achieve the objective and a desire to achieve the objective. Merely having ambition is no guarantee of winning the title.

While Robin recognises that there is a problem that must be fixed before we can win, the admission that there is a problem shows a desire/ambition to get it rectified.

Alisher Usmanov, the Uzbek billionaire and Arsenal shareholder, has laid the blame for the team's failure to win any trophies in the last six seasons at the door of the club's board.

The 57-year-old, who is not an Arsenal director even though he owns almost 30% of Arsenal Holdings, believes self-interest among the board members is stymieing the club's chances of on-field success.

Usmanov also said that there would need to be a switch in emphasis if he is to end up on the board. He told the News of the World: "If the role of a board member is to oversee a trophyless period while making significant personal profits and asking fans to pay inflation-busting ticket price increases then, no, I would not want to be on the board.

"If instead it is to try to deliver sustained success, to increase your personal investment in the club, to help develop the commercial position and to ensure the fans have a say in the running of the club then, yes, I think I certainly have something to contribute.

"In terms of doing things differently, let me give you a very clear example. Arsenal has all of its major commercial contracts coming up for renewal in the next couple of years. It's no secret that to maximise the value of those you want to have success on the field and be winning trophies. To do that you need to invest now in building a winning team. This is simple commercial logic. Whether it comes to pass, we shall see."

Arsenal's season collapsed following their Carling Cup final defeat to Birmingham in February, with their challenges in the Champions League, FA Cup and Premier League all crumbling.

Usmanov is of the opinion that the manager Arsène Wenger needs to be given the financial backing to bring in experienced players to complement the talented young players they have.

"There is a widely-held view among most commentators – and one that I agree with – that the club needs to stiffen the defensive spine of the team, with a dominant keeper, strong centre-halves and a powerful defensive midfielder in the mould of Claude Makelele," he said.

"The Premier League is one of the most competitive in the world and whilst we have consistently challenged for honours, the club needs to develop talent and buy top-class players. This requires greater investment which, I believe, has been lacking thus far.

"What, however, is not clear is whether the board shares this view. For too long they have seemed happy to sanction second, third and fourth as being acceptable, whilst at the same time they are planning to sell their shares."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/jun/12/arsenal-alisher-usmanov

debosky:

Is making the same mistakes the same as not having ambition?

Abramovich clearly wants to win the CL, yet he keeps firing managers, basically making the same mistake. Will you now say because of that mistake doesn't have ambition to win the CL?

Its your opinion that firing coaches in Chelsea's case is a 'mistake'. To many Chelsea fans, its the right thing to do. IMO, the only mistake they made was firing Mourinho.

Let's get things straight - I am simply challenging your erroneous suggestion that we had 'the best side in the premiership'. We didn't - if you agree on that error you made then the argument is over.

At the beginning of the season, we had the best team in the premiership. That they did not deliver on their potentials does not remove the fact that we had the best team. Be honest with yourself, on paper, in terms of quality of players, even with those who played on the days, did we have any business losing at home to those teams mentioned? Compared to other 'trophyless' seasons, asides the last season Flamini spent with us, this was the first time based on the teams presented by Chelsea and United (our only rivals IMO) at the start of the season, we truly had a chance to win the league!

Secondly, when we talk about 'the way we lost the league', the 'best' squad in the premiership would be able to maintain momentum after suffering setbacks in the CC, FA Cup and CL - [b]we couldn't. [/b]That alone should tell you that the team is not the best in any guise.

Good but clearly not good enough. There are lots of 'good' teams in the EPL - we are discussing the 'best' team here, which is what you claimed we have. Clearly if we were the best team, we should have performed better in the games you mentioned.

Having the potential does not mean one will translate that potential into performance on the field. Isn't that why we have been castigating AW all season through?

The teams better than us - Chelski and Utd and Citeh did NOT drop as many points against such sides - that proves that they are better sides. If you want to compare performances, don't compare H2H with the big boys alone - as Sharon often repeats, Utd has had more than one season when their record against the top 4 was abysmal yet they won the title.

They are better sides in being able to use what they have to get what they want! United's team was tagged as 'rubbish' and 'the worst United team ever' by their own fans and pundits yet SAF got them to the Champ's lge final and they won the league! Look at the West Ham team. On paper, that team has no business in the Championship. Ask any Westham fan, they would tell you its not because they didn't have the players, but because the coach messed them up. Last season, we had the players to win the league. On paper, as at September 2010, we had the best team in the PL.

Let me point at a few examples of how not being good enough made us drop those points.

1. Against Newcastle at home, an incompetent Fabianki jumps underneath a cross allowing Carroll a free header to score.
2. Against West Brom, a Almunia concedes some unforgivable goals that even a championship keeper should save.
3. Against Villa - terrible marking in the midfield and defence allows Darren Bent to score a brace in less than 20 minutes. In one chance, the defenders play the offside trap and it fails. The second time, Vermaelen slips and no one else reacts allowing Bent to score.

If that is not evidence of the deficiencies in the side (i.e. not being the best) then I don't know what is.

Every team makes mistakes. What stopped our strikers from scoring more goals? We lost by one goal against Newcastle! Barcelona conceeded an own goal against Arsenal. They scored 3. Teams will always make mistakes. VDS also made mistakes last season, so did Utd defenders in games Vidic/Rio didn't play, yet they won d league. Cesc, Arshavin, Clichy, Vermaellen, Kos, even Nasri made mistakes on the field that led to goals against us last season. Does that take away their quality or overall quality of the team? No!
Note, I am not saying our team was excellent, I am only making a relative comparison that as at the start of the season, on paper we had the best team. The only team I saw with an almost equal team was ManCity but I also remember saying I didn't fear them much because I did not see the team jelling in their first season (they clearly proved me wrong). But Chelsea and United (our main rivals at the start of the season) had worse teams.
Tactically and Technically, we probably had the worst 2nd half of the season coach (of the top 4 teams), based on hind sight.

It means your team isn't quite good enough - does it mean the club doesn't have the desire to win titles? Absolutely not. Robin has simply said the desire/ambition to win must be backed up with the performance on the field of play and transfers - it is not enough to desire or possess ambition to win.
Again you fail to differentiate between failing to achieve the objective and a desire to achieve the objective. Merely having ambition is no guarantee of winning the title.

While Robin recognises that there is a problem that must be fixed before we can win, the admission that there is a problem shows a desire/ambition to get it rectified.

debosky, it starts with ambition! Because I am not on the Arsenal board and therefore not privy to discussions at that level, I can only judge their ambition by what we see in terms of transfers and on the field performance. What RVP is saying is that if we continue to sign players like we have been doing, then we should lower our expectations because saying we will win the league is simply DELUSION. Again, I said this same thing months ago!
Anybody can set objective to win the league.
In terms of admitting there's a problem, AW has only accepted this season that there's a problem (reason why I am supporting him for another season). In past seasons, he has always told us there's no problem. I can quote AW's reply when people complained we didn't have tall defenders. I can quote his reply when fans said there we needed experience in the team. It is only now that Arsene has come out to accept some of these facts. That's why I have been bringing out his past statements and comparing them with present ones even though some of you have tagged me as a rumour monger .

proudly9ja:

Its your opinion that firing coaches in Chelsea's case is a 'mistake'. To many Chelsea fans, its the right thing to do. IMO, the only mistake they made was firing Mourinho.

Ok - it is my own opinion - has it achieved the desire to win the CL? No it hasn't. If it is not the same mistake over and over again, how will someone who has invested close to £1bn still be hunting for a CL? How many teams have won the CL by sacking managers every year?

One can easily say that Chelski will not win the CL by sacking managers frequently - the other teams that won CLs didn't do that to win. (except maybe Real, but they are a class by themselves in the CL).

At the beginning of the season, we had the best team in the premiership. That they did not deliver on their potentials does not remove the fact that we had the best team.

I repeat - this is a baseless assertion not grounded in fact. I have already shown you our defence wasn't even the best in the top 5 and you still maintain this claim? What made our defence better than others? What made our strikers better than others?

Be honest with yourself, on paper, in terms of quality of players, even with those who played on the days, did we have any business losing at home to those teams mentioned?

This is a moot point - With the calibre of Chelski's players, did they have any business losing to Sunderland, Birmingham (a relegated side) amongst others?

Compared to other 'trophyless' seasons, asides the last season Flamini spent with us, this was the first time based on the teams presented by Chelsea and United (our only rivals IMO) at the start of the season, we truly had a chance to win the league!

While Chelski and Utd may have been weaker, they were still better than us - that is the fact you refuse to accept, a fact borne out by results. Having a chance to win the league largely down to perception - Tottenham would also have said they had a chance to win the league. However, being the best is not - the results at the end of the day show who is best. I don't dispute we had a better chance compared to previous seasons, but we were definitely not the best side.

Having the potential does not mean one will translate that potential into performance on the field. Isn't that why we have been castigating AW all season through?

That is a separate argument - we are not discussing potential here. If we had the 'best team' in the EPL, then we would have won or come a close second. The fact that we were so woefully behind is as much of evidence that you will ever need.

They are better sides in being able to use what they have to get what they want!

If they are better sides, then we did not have the best side, simples. Please remind me why we are then arguing if you agree? 

Last season, we had the players to win the league. On paper, as at September 2010, we had the best team in the PL.

One second other teams are better, the next we are. . . sounds like confusion to me bro.

Secondly, how can a team with a defence with Squillaci, Koscielny and Almunia ever be the best? Or did Vidic, VDS, Cech and Reina all die of some disease I didn't know about? A team with calamity Clichy better than Utd with Evra or Chelski with Cashley?

Every team makes mistakes. What stopped our strikers from scoring more goals?

Because they were not good enough. Utd's strikers were better, that's why Chicharito hit 20, Berba 21 and Rooney chipped in. In our own case, only RVP was outstanding. Utd had 3 performing strikers, we had only 1 (maybe count Chamakh's first half).

Cesc, Arshavin, Clichy, Vermaellen, Kos, even Nasri made mistakes on the field that led to goals against us last season. Does that take away their quality or overall quality of the team? No!

Not from their individual quality, but of course the team's quality was affected. Koscielny being your first choice while Utd had 3 CBs who had won at least 2 titles? Chelski with 3 CBs who had won one title and 2 cups? No comparison. The difference in quality is undeniable.

I have already said we were the best in midfield, but nowhere else.

Note, I am not saying our team was excellent, I am only making a relative comparison that as at the start of the season,

Your initial assessment was wrong - and this was borne out over the course of the season. You made an assessment/hypothesis that the team was the best, this hypothesis was tested over 38 games and proven false.

But Chelsea and United (our main rivals at the start of the season) had worse teams.

Worse teams compared to previous years, but still better than Arsenal. Utd had a 15m+ midfielder in Anderson not starting, Carrick cost over 20m, Rio cost 30m, Rooney cost 27, Berba cost 29, Valencia cost 15, Nani cost 17m and so on. How was that team worse than Arsenal's?

Chelski had just won a title and still had the bulk of their side together, how was that team worse than Arsenal's?

Tactically and Technically, we probably had the worst 2nd half of the season coach (of the top 4 teams), based on hind sight.

Our players didn't lose due to tactics - Tactics didn't tell Almunia to rush out like a madman at West Brom. Tactics didn't tell Chez and Kos to screw up at Wembley. Tactics didn't say Nasri should miss sitters he'd otherwise score earlier. The team lost form, and the loss of form is a clear sign the team wasn't good enough. Tactics didn't make Djourou's form deteriorate so rapidly that he was a shadow of his former self by March/April.

debosky, it starts with ambition! Because I am not on the Arsenal board and therefore not privy to discussions at that level, I can only judge their ambition by what we see in terms of transfers and on the field performance. What RVP is saying is that if we continue to sign players like we have been doing, then we should lower our expectations because saying we will win the league is simply DELUSION. Again, I said this same thing months ago!

What a contradiction you are - here you are castigating the quality of players, yet you claim we were the best side in Sept 2010. In one breath we have the best side (i.e. the transfers have been good enough), the next we are deluding ourselves - led by you who felt we had a the best side.

He has never said lower your expectations - he is saying, match our ambitions with action.

Anybody can set objective to win the league.
In terms of admitting there's a problem, AW has only accepted this season that there's a problem (reason why I am supporting him for another season). In past seasons, he has always told us there's no problem. I can quote AW's reply when people complained we didn't have tall defenders. I can quote his reply when fans said there we needed experience in the team. It is only now that Arsene has come out to accept some of these facts. That's why I have been bringing out his past statements and comparing them with present ones even though some of you have tagged me as a rumour monger  .

Arsenal has 'admitted' a myriad of problems over the years - anyone who seriously listens to what Arsene says (post 2006) is not helping himself. Wenger knows the problems in the side, the issue is whether he is stubbornly ignoring them or unable to fix them due to a lack of funds, or a mixture of both.

Wenger's summers usually follows this trend

1. I know the gaps we have and we will fix them
2. We are working on targets but not close
3. Only a 'special' player will improve this side
4. I haven't been able to find better players than what we have
5. We cannot spend £50m on a player, we have to live within our means.

He is a spin doctor - ignore his comments and watch his actions. His pitchside manner shows he clearly wants to win in terms of ambition - what is lacking is the playing staff.

^^^

after your long epistle, would you sack arsene wenger this summer if you were the chairman of arsenal fc?

At the beginning of the season, we had the best team in the premiership. That they did not deliver on their potentials does not remove the fact that we had the best team. Be honest with yourself, on paper, in terms of quality of players, even with those who played on the days, did we have any business losing at home to those teams mentioned? Compared to other 'trophyless' seasons, asides the last season Flamini spent with us, this was the first time based on the teams presented by Chelsea and United (our only rivals IMO) at the start of the season, we truly had a chance to win the league!

I'm going to have to call you out here. . . At the start of Flamini's last season(07/08), Arsenal's squad was still streets behind United. They only looked top class by the end of the season because an unusual number of them stepped up their game big-time during the course of the season.

Almunia raised his game enough to displace Jens.

Clichy had a stormer of a season, he was easily the best left back in the league that year.

Sagna came in from Ligue 1 still relatively unknown but cartwheeled into the PFA team of the year.

Flamini took advantage of Gilberto's brief absence and cemented his place in the team.

Cesc was already a top player but he added the only thing that had been missing from his game previously: Goals. . . lots of them.

Hleb converted his flashes of brilliance displayed in previous seasons to consistency, he was superb.

Adebayor went from being one of the most ridiculed forwards in Europe to one of the most sought after.

ALL these players had by and far the best season of their careers at the time, and with the exception of Cesc probably the best season of their careers to date. They were all much more highly rated at the end of the season than at the start, when you claim they could match United, who had Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez etc.

Last season was the first in a while Arsenal's squad could actually go toe to toe with United's.

ritchboy:

I'm going to have to call you out here. . . At the start of Flamini's last season(07/08), Arsenal's squad was still streets behind United. They only looked top class by the end of the season because an unusual number of them stepped up their game big-time during the course of the season.

Almunia raised his game enough to displace Jens.

Clichy had a stormer of a season, he was easily the best left back in the league that year.

Sagna came in from Ligue 1 still relatively unknown but cartwheeled into the PFA team of the year.

Flamini took advantage of Gilberto's brief absence and cemented his place in the team.

Cesc was already a top player but he added the only thing that had been missing from his game previously: Goals. . . lots of them.

Hleb converted his flashes of brilliance displayed in previous seasons to consistency, he was superb.

Adebayor went from being one of the most ridiculed forwards in Europe to one of the most sought after.

ALL these players had by and far the best season of their careers at the time, and with the exception of Cesc probably the best season of their careers to date. They were all much more highly rated at the end of the season than at the start, when you claim they could match United, who had Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez etc.

In reference to Flamini's last season, I was only talking based on hindsight. I agree with you that the boys all stepped up which was also one of the reasons many were disappointed Arsene broke the team (maybe not totally his fault).

coogar:

^^^

after your long epistle, would you sack arsene wenger this summer if you were the chairman of arsenal fc?

No I wouldn't. I would do 5 simple things.

1. Ask him to identify two top class CBs that he wants and promise to secure at least one of them

2. Ask him to identify two top/mid class strikers that he wants and promise to secure at least one of them

3. Ask him to request one more player he feels he needs to win and promise to get the player.

4. Refuse to sell Nasri or Cesc at any price (this season)

5. Tell him to win a trophy or he's on his way out come 2012

In my view, the board is too weak and is not able to either give Wenger instructions or help him secure the targets required. Wenger is left to do everything, and we all know that if you do everything you end up doing nothing very well.

Wenger needs to focus on identifying transfers and leaving the management to secure the deals - this 'one budget' for both transfers and wage rises/new contracts is one of the biggest flaws at Arsenal.

proudly9ja:

In reference to Flamini's last season, I was only talking based on hindsight. I agree with you that the boys all stepped up which was also one of the reasons many were disappointed Arsene broke the team (maybe not totally his fault).

What you have inadvertently admitted is that a team can ultimately be assessed as being the 'best' in hindsight. I don't know of anyone who would assess Arsenal's team at the end of 2010/11 and say we were the best.

ritchboy:

Last season was the first in a while Arsenal's squad could actually go toe to toe with United's.

Would you consider Arsenal's squad as the best last season?