good  to see alisher say the absolute truth with so much candor.  for pple who are very much vaunted for financial prudence, the arsenal board is remarkably dense or selfish.

this club is nowhere near fulfiling its financial potential, i daresay even tottenham have a better commercial dept to arsenal comparatively. if arsenal had half  of man utd success commercially, what would we be doing?   its like a man who saves money by starving versus the one who makes money by entrepreneurship. the hungry man then starts shouting how rich he is and debt free compared to bz man who has a bank loan.    tseew.

invest in the side, then aggressively leverage the success. but then when u know that u cannot be successful even with the worlds best, u would be reluctant.


anyways, has almunia left yet?

REMEMBER, ARSENE IS NEVER RIGHT.

debo, stop twisting my points.

With hindsight, we messed up not because we had a bad team but because we had a poor coach who has shown over the years that he finds it difficult to get his team to do well in the second half of the season.

Being able to bring out the best in a team is largely due to the ability of the coach/technical crew. It's the reason United usually have a better second half of the season than first half.

Cost of buying a player in today's football market is more based on who is buying rather than the player's worth. Anderson for 15M or Carrick for watever millions you stated and still you claim we had the best midfield?

Il leave this 'Arsenal had the best team' or not issue for now as it changes nothing and I am tired of epistles. Dropping points to WestBrom and Newcastle at home had little to do with the team's quality vs West Brom/Newcastle's quality. Asides one or two games in the league, we hardly had a game where we were played off the park. United and Chelsea for the first time in a long time had games where they were completely crap.

Its easy for you to list errors by players but like I highlighted, everybody makes errors but it takes nothing away from their abilities. Claiming an attack of Arshavin, Nasri, RVP, Cesc isn't good enough? Then maybe we need extra terrestials to come to play for us at Arsenal.

Even as at the run in, we had a chance of winning the league considering we had played most of the top 4 teams home and away yet we lost it. This again I maintain, had nothing to do with lack of quality.

You can read whatever you like into RVP's statement. I choose to see that all he has said is as long as we continue the way we have been going, its DELUSION (his words) to think we will win the league.

4llerbuntu:

good  to see alisher say the absolute truth with so much candor.  for pple who are very much vaunted for financial prudence, the arsenal board is remarkably dense or selfish.

this club is nowhere near fulfiling its financial potential, i daresay even tottenham have a better commercial dept to arsenal comparatively. if arsenal had half  of man utd success commercially, what would we be doing?   its like a man who saves money by starving versus the one who makes money by entrepreneurship. the hungry man then starts shouting how rich he is and debt free compared to bz man who has a bank loan.    tseew.

invest in the side, then aggressively leverage the success. but then when u know that u cannot be successful even with the worlds best, u would be reluctant.


anyways, has almunia left yet?

REMEMBER, ARSENE IS NEVER RIGHT.

I'm really not sure I want Arsenal to get to the point where Chelsea and City are at the moment TBH. We can still manage our finances and still be successful. Past results have shown us that we don't need massive changes. We just need the right/correct changes where necessary.

debosky:

No I wouldn't. I would do 5 simple things.
1. Ask him to identify two top class CBs that he wants and promise to secure at least one of them

2 top class cbs will cost arsenal a region of £40 million in today's transfer market - can the board afford that?

2. Ask him to identify two top/mid class strikers that he wants and promise to secure at least one of them

another £20m - £30m outlay, can the board deal with it?

3. Ask him to request one more player he feels he needs to win and promise to get the player.

and wenger will sign another french player from obscurity

4. Refuse to sell Nasri or Cesc at any price (this season)

good point.

5. Tell him to win a trophy or he's on his way out come 2012

do they even have the balls to sack wenger?

In my view, the board is too weak and is not able to either give Wenger instructions or help him secure the targets required. Wenger is left to do everything, and we all know that if you do everything you end up doing nothing very well.

surely, wenger has a backroom staff. wenger has scouts all over the globe. i don't think it's something to do with the board. wenger has all the faults.
he wants to assemble a team of players who play in a certain kind of way. the kind of way that is not really suited to the english league. i keep saying arsenal in another continental league will be winning the league easily - but not here. even the invincibles had some grit and some dirty players. these current players of nasri, cesc and arshavin are specialists. . . .they only know how to play football in one way and you need many ways to win the league in engand.

Wenger needs to focus on identifying transfers and leaving the management to secure the deals - this 'one budget' for both transfers and wage rises/new contracts is one of the biggest flaws at Arsenal.

i hope they get it right this time around but my instinct says they won't. . . .arsenal's biggest problem now is the rise and rise of tottenham and man city. more rivals mean the less likely to win the league. it's impossible for 5 quality rivals to play shyt throughout the course of the season and this is where arsenal's problem lie. back in the 90s, it only took united to self-destruct for arsenal to win unopposed. these days, you have to hope man utd, chelsea, man city and liverpool screw up before arsenal can win. it's a huge ask!


[quote][/quote]i personally didn't think arsenal had the best team last season even when the pundits kept hyping arsenal's quality. however, arsenal's team were good enough to win the title because chelsea and man utd had stinkers of a season. arsenal certainly closed the gap but in the end, they weren't good enough to win the league.

Nasri will stay even if we have to let him go for free next season.

Fabregas will also stay. I want to believe Arsene has learnt his lessons.

proudly9ja:

debo, stop twisting my points.

With hindsight, we messed up not because we had a bad team but because we had a poor coach who has shown over the years that he finds it difficult to get his team to do well in the second half of the season.

So it's because Wenger is a 'poor coach' that Almunia is useless? It's because Wenger is a 'poor coach' that Koscielny struggled in his first season in the EPL?

It's because Wenger is a poor coach that NONE of our 3 GKs would feature in any top 4 side, not because we don't have quality players?

Ok oh.

Get JM or even Fergie and they still will never win the title with the likes of Almunia in goal.

Being able to bring out the best in a team is largely due to the ability of the coach/technical crew. It's the reason United usually have a better second half of the season than first half.

When Arsenal have a team I consider being the best then I will be able to evaluate this assertion. As things stand right now, the playing staff is clearly deficient. Knowing the manager has won previously (but most/all the playing staff haven't), the evidence supports my assertion and not yours.

We all know Arsenal's squad quality has not reached 2005 levels for 6 years, so it's no surprise we haven't won titles.

Cost of buying a player in today's football market is more based on who is buying rather than the player's worth. Anderson for 15M or Carrick for watever millions you stated and still you claim we had the best midfield?

If you want to buy Cesc now, he's worth a heck of a lot, so the claim remains. But compare with our defence - you couldn't even give Almunia away for free. Not one of the top 4 would buy Djourou and Koscielny, yet those were our mainstays, that shows you that in both quality and monetary value, we were not the best by any means.

Its easy for you to list errors by players but like I highlighted, everybody makes errors but it takes nothing away from their abilities. Claiming an attack of Arshavin, Nasri, RVP, Cesc isn't good enough? Then maybe we need extra terrestials to come to play for us at Arsenal.

The [b]strikers [/b]were not good enough. RVP is the only striker in that list. Unless you want to claim Bendtner and Chamakh were as good as Rooney and Chicharito this season, then there is no argument here.

Even as at the run in, we had a chance of winning the league considering we had played most of the top 4 teams home and away yet we lost it. This again I maintain, had nothing to do with lack of quality.

It has everything to do with quality. You mistakenly assume quality is only relevant when playing bigger teams. As I have mentioned time without number, Utd have won titles when playing badly against the top 4. It is common sense and simple logic that if there are 18 teams in the league, doing well enough against 15 of the teams will be of a greater impact than against 3 only teams. A player who can lift his game for 3-4 games, but plays rubbish in the other 15 is obviously not as good as you think.

You can read whatever you like into RVP's statement. I choose to see that all he has said is as long as we continue the way we have been going, its DELUSION (his words) to think we will win the league.

Thank goodness you've moved away from claiming he mentioned ambition.

RVP never talked about ambition, he talked about expectation of the fans. He is saying the club's actions must match its desire (and that of its fans) to win the title. He addressed the disconnect between the stated ambition/desire, and actions.

coogar:

2 top class cbs will cost arsenal a region of £40 million in today's transfer market - can the board afford that?

Identify two, buy one - the aim of selecting two is to remove the excuse that the only target was not signed.

another £20m - £30m outlay, can the board deal with it?

Same as above - identify two options, sign one.

and wenger will sign another french player from obscurity

In my world, Wenger doesn't sign - he identifies targets and leaves signing to the board. The main reason Arsene signs French players from obscurity is largely due to the fact that he can use his personal contacts to identify cheap deals, which frees up the rest of the budget to give wage increases.

If you remove that link, Wenger can be more objective in selecting transfers, not always making the false choice of signing quality vs increasing Denilson and Diaby's wages. Those two issues, though related ultimately, should not be left in the manager's hands alone as things currently stand.

surely, wenger has a backroom staff. wenger has scouts all over the globe. i don't think it's something to do with the board. wenger has all the faults.

His faults are amplified when he has 100% control. His backroom staff report to him -do you expect dissent? You need someone above Wenger, i.e. the board who can overrule him, e.g. if he feels a player's price is too expensive. He needs an objective eye to handle the finances.

he wants to assemble a team of players who play in a certain kind of way. the kind of way that is not really suited to the english league. i keep saying arsenal in another continental league will be winning the league easily - but not here. even the invincibles had some grit and some dirty players. these current players of nasri, cesc and arshavin are specialists. . . .they only know how to play football in one way and you need many ways to win the league in engand.

While there is some truth here, the fact is, Wenger doesn't even have the players to execute his system. He needs reliable defenders who are intelligent enough to protect the backline for an attacking team - he doesn't have that back line.

i hope they get it right this time around but my instinct says they won't. . . .arsenal's biggest problem now is the rise and rise of tottenham and man city. more rivals mean the less likely to win the league. it's impossible for 5 quality rivals to play shyt throughout the course of the season and this is where arsenal's problem lie. back in the 90s, it only took united to self-destruct for arsenal to win unopposed. these days, you have to hope man utd, chelsea, man city and liverpool screw up before arsenal can win. it's a huge ask!

Let's wait and see. . . .

i personally didn't think arsenal had the best team last season even when the pundits kept hyping arsenal's quality. however, arsenal's team were good enough to win the title because chelsea and man utd had stinkers of a season. arsenal certainly closed the gap but in the end, they weren't good enough to win the league.

More objective assessment. Closer to Utd and Chelski, but ultimately not close enough.

debosky:

So it's because Wenger is a 'poor coach' that Almunia is useless? It's because Wenger is a 'poor coach' that Koscielny struggled in his first season in the EPL?

It's because Wenger is a poor coach that NONE of our 3 GKs would feature in any top 4 side, not because we don't have quality players?

Ok oh.

Get JM or even Fergie and they still will never win the title with the likes of Almunia in goal.

YES! Its because AW is 'poor' that's why we had his 'world class goalkeepers' i.e. Almunia and Fabianski in goal last season. Its because AW is poor that's why we sold 3 CBs and brought in 2 last season.
If I had SAF or JM, Almunia wouldn't even be in the team in the first place!

When Arsenal have a team I consider being the best then I will be able to evaluate this assertion. As things stand right now, the playing staff is clearly deficient. Knowing the manager has won previously (but most/all the playing staff haven't), the evidence supports my assertion and not yours.

The playing staff is deficient, I agree but compared to others at the start of the season, we had a very good squad. Even YOU debosky was excited at the prospects of Squillaci when he joined us. We all have benefit of hind sight now and can compare with other teams but at the start of the season, I believe we had a team that could win the league. YES! ahead of United and Chelsea!

If you want to buy Cesc now, he's worth a heck of a lot, so the claim remains. But compare with our defence - you couldn't even give Almunia away for free. Not one of the top 4 would buy Djourou and Koscielny, yet those were our mainstays, that shows you that in both quality and monetary value, we were not the best by any means.

If Utd plan to sell Anderson or Carrick or any of the players you mentioned (including Bebatov), none of them will match the amount they were bought. So check your claim again.

The [b]strikers [/b]were not good enough. RVP is the only striker in that list. Unless you want to claim Bendtner and Chamakh were as good as Rooney and Chicharito this season, then there is no argument here.

That's with hindsight. At the start of the season, Id rather have Bendtner, Chamakh, ahead of Berba and Chicarito. Make your choice

It has everything to do with quality. You mistakenly assume quality is only relevant when playing bigger teams. As I have mentioned time without number, Utd have won titles when playing badly against the top 4. It is common sense and simple logic that if there are 18 teams in the league, doing well enough against 15 of the teams will be of a greater impact than against 3 only teams. A player who can lift his game for 3-4 games, but plays rubbish in the other 15 is obviously not as good as you think.

On the contrary. I assume quality is only relevant when we play the remaining 15 teams in the league because we will play the remaining four at least 4 times at home which is 12 possible points. This season against the top three teams, we got 12 points out of 18.

Thank goodness you've moved away from claiming he mentioned ambition.

RVP never talked about ambition, he talked about expectation of the fans. He is saying the club's actions must match its desire (and that of its fans) to win the title. He addressed the disconnect between the stated ambition/desire, and actions.

You say, RVP never mentioned ambition. I won't argue with you on this. Like I said, you are the grammar 'inventor'. Using your words though, I leave it to others to explain what a player means when he says 'club's actions don't match the club's (and fans) desire'.

It's like a student who declares he wants to come first in class but while others are studying he is playing football. Then when he fails in his goal, he comes out to say he had ambition to come first. Its your actions that show your ambitions not your words.

I remember debosky himself saying that (before Arsenal brought in Squillaci), if AW does not bring in a new CB, we might as well settle for 4th position.

surely, wenger has a backroom staff. wenger has scouts all over the globe. i don't think it's something to do with the board. wenger has all the faults.
he wants to assemble a team of players who play in a certain kind of way. the kind of way that is not really suited to the english league. i keep saying arsenal in another continental league will be winning the league easily - but not here. even the invincibles had some grit and some dirty players. these current players of nasri, cesc and arshavin are specialists. . . .they only know how to play football in one way and you need many ways to win the league in engand.

If the bold was true then they should be performing better in European compatition. Wengers Arsenal have never won a continental title

That means his game does not suit England does not suit Europe maybe "monkey post" or 5 a side

dayokanu:

Juventus ride in the llast 4 seasons has been similar, So one would say Juventus isnt a top club.

Would anyone argue that the Juventus of now is in held in the same regard or status as the Juventus of the late 90's/early 00's? A club that hasn't played in the CL for a number of seasons now?

Face it DK - you are talking absolute nonsense.

My point remains valid - Arsenal had been in decline since the last trophies won by Graham, and was in a worse state after Rioch left. Wenger's introduction resulted in more trophies than any other manager in the history of the club. If a 'failure' has won more trophies than any other manager, then what are we to say about the club as a whole?

Never mind that George Grahams Arsenal played Back to Back UEFA cup finals and won one.

Fulham also reached the UEFA Cup finals in 2010, I guess they are also a top club for that achievement?

I guess Nottingham Forest is a top club NOW because they won the Champions Cup in the 80's.

George Graham won the UEFA cup when Only one club represented the country. If it were to be the same format now, Wenger would have played the CL just 3 times and would be a perenial UEFA cup team.

FACT is the Arsenal that Wenger took over was a top side.

No team plays back to back UEFA cup finals in the early 90's without being a big club.

Nothingham forest won the Champions cup about 30yrs ago, George Graham won the UEFA cup 2 seasons before Wenger took over.

Face it Dobosky, You are talking rubbish, Wenger is the problem with the team

proudly9ja:

YES! Its because AW is 'poor' that's why we had his 'world class goalkeepers' i.e. Almunia and Fabianski in goal last season. Its because AW is poor that's why we sold 3 CBs and brought in 2 last season.

So Wenger's poor 2nd half coaching performance is responsible for the above as well?

You need to recognise when you're making an indefensible argument.

If I had SAF or JM, Almunia wouldn't even be in the team in the first place!
The playing staff is deficient, I agree but compared to others at the start of the season, we had a very good squad.

Aha - finally we step back from the abyss. Glad to hear you admit we our playing staff was deficient. That is the reason why we could not win in the end.

Even YOU debosky was excited at the prospects of Squillaci when he joined us.

I was excited, but at no point did that anticipation delude me into thinking we had the best squad in the premiership. My excitement was tempered by the unknowns of bringing two CBs into the EPL at the same time.

We all have benefit of hind sight now and can compare with other teams but at the start of the season, I believe we had a team that could win the league. YES! ahead of United and Chelsea!

I never shared this belief - the results support my initial belief and not yours. I was optimistic no doubt, but nothing more.

If Utd plan to sell Anderson or Carrick or any of the players you mentioned (including Bebatov), none of them will match the amount they were bought. So check your claim again.

We are getting distracted here - those players are higher quality players than the Arsenal equivalents, that is the crux of the matter. In terms of their title and league winning experience and year in year out consistent performances, they are better than the Arsenal lads when the whole squad is examined.

That's with hindsight. At the start of the season, Id rather have Bendtner, Chamakh, ahead of Berba and Chicarito. Make your choice

You would take Bendtner and Chamakh over Berba, a player who has averaged above 15 goals a season  in the EPL for 4 seasons before the current season?  

Chamakh was coming fresh into the EPL - no way of judging what he would do, same with Chicharito to an extent. While I might have taken Bendtner over Chicharito because of EPL experience, I would not have taken Chamakh over an EPL proven Berbatov with title winning experience.

On the contrary. I assume quality is only relevant when we play the remaining 15 teams in the league because we will play the remaining four at least 4 times at home which is 12 possible points. This season against the top three teams, we got 12 points out of 18.

Let's go with that assumption for a moment. If that is when quality is relevant, our performance against those 15, relative to the top 4 sides was the poorest. That is direct evidence that we have lower quality compared to our rivals because, when faced with the same 15 teams, they outperformed us.

You say, RVP never mentioned ambition. I won't argue with you on this. Like I said, you are the grammar 'inventor'.

This has nothing to do with grammar bro - do a word search on RVP's comments in that article. Ambition comes up 0 times.

Using your words though, I leave it to others to explain what a player means when he says 'club's actions don't match the club's (and fans) desire'.

It can be explained in a myriad of ways - one way is the club has/had a financial or organisational handicap which prevents it from buying the type of players to match its ambitions.

We don't have the funds of Citeh or Chelski, neither do we have the financial clout of Utd in terms of commercial deals.

It's like a student who declares he wants to come first in class but while others are studying he is playing football. Then when he fails in his goal, he comes out to say he had ambition to come first. Its your actions that show your ambitions not your words.

That is a poor analogy. A better one would be a student who wants to come first in class, but because he cannot afford the textbooks, he comes up short.

To surmise, the inability to buy the world class players we need, as demonstrated by our squad's relative deficiency, is Arsenal's undoing at the moment.

I remember debosky himself saying that (before Arsenal brought in Squillaci), if AW does not bring in a new CB, we might as well settle for 4th position.

Yes I did say that, which in ambition terms means, even if we desire to come first, without the building blocks, we will come short.

big misconceptions being peddled as arguments on this thread.

quality is not always equal to price. no need for examples, fill in the blank spaces with names.

he bought cheap duds, entirely his own decisions and signings.

he also refuses to let the confirmed duds go. why? who uses leaking spoon to eat? get anor.

again, the focus was not win the league, it was win a trophy out of FOUR. still is the clamour. talk of squads are just blinkkered.

besides, how did pompey, birmingham, westham etc win trophies in the last five years? luck? did they have to buy world class players?

this is omo alairiolari mentality by arsenal fans and board.
the poor kid goes to xmas party by dangote kids and gets treats like ice cream so delicious that he keeps the bowl as a trophy and keeps licking it everyday. the club cannot do better than wenger? even manutd with a certified world class coach wilo not talk like dis abt fergie. what happened go the club is bigger?

goddamn the arsenal board

dayokanu:

George Graham won the UEFA cup when Only one club represented the country. If it were to be the same format now, Wenger would have played the CL just 3 times and would be a perenial UEFA cup team.

No one is begrudging 's achievement in the UEFA Cup. However, it was the only bright spot in a club on the decline.

As anyone will tell you, the best measure of a side is its final placement in the league table.

FACT is the Arsenal that Wenger took over was a top side.

Fact is that we were averaging finishing 7th and went to winning doubles with Wenger.

No team plays back to back UEFA cup finals in the early 90's without being a big club.

Arsenal is a big club without a doubt, so is Newcastle.

Face it Dobosky, You are talking rubbish, Wenger is the problem with the team

Wenger is the problem and has won the most trophies with Arsenal? That doesn't sound right to me - the issues are at board level.

almunia,
denilson,
squillaci,
bendtner,
diaby

WHICH ONE HAS LEFT? BEEN SOLD, OR RELEASED?

4llerbuntu:

quality is not always equal to price. no need for examples, fill in the blank spaces with names.

No one said it was always equal. The fact is, whether on price or quality, the Utd squad, particularly its defence is head and shoulders above Arsenal's.

he bought cheap duds, entirely his own decisions and signings.

Cheap by intent or by necessity? Previous history suggests the latter.

he also refuses to let the confirmed duds go. why? who uses leaking spoon to eat? get anor.

Some players have been offered up for sale with no one buying - prime example Almunia.

again, the focus was not win the league, it was win a trophy out of FOUR. still is the clamour. talk of squads are just blinkkered.

Without the squad issues, we wouldn't have Chezney and Koscielny making such a mistake in the last minute of the CC final - two players with less than half a season of EPL experience to boast about.

besides, how did pompey, birmingham, westham etc win trophies in the last five years? luck? did they have to buy world class players?

Which trophy did West Ham win? Relegation?

Teams chasing one title alone tend to have a better chance of winning that one trophy than those stretched over many competitions. Birmingham's precipitous decline after the CC win is enough evidence.

While there are flaws (no manager is perfect), the crucial element remains squad health.

this is omo alairiolari mentality by arsenal fans and board.
the poor kid goes to xmas party by dangote kids and gets treats like ice cream so delicious that he keeps the bowl as a trophy and keeps licking it everyday. the club cannot do better than wenger? even manutd with a certified world class coach wilo not talk like dis abt fergie. what happened go the club is bigger?

I actually agree with you on this count - if the club could indeed do without Wenger with their current policies, they would have done so. That is a tacit admission that the issues currently affecting the side go beyond Wenger as a manager.

debosky:

So Wenger's poor 2nd half coaching performance is responsible for the above as well?

You need to recognise when you're making an indefensible argument.

Wetin I write, wetin u read?

Aha - finally we step back from the abyss. Glad to hear you admit we our playing staff was deficient. That is the reason why we could not win in the end.

Ofcourse, I have never said we were perfect last season. I think I have over harped on the 'relative' issue since this arguement began. I don tire.

I was excited, but at no point did that anticipation delude me into thinking we had the best squad in the premiership. My excitement was tempered by the unknowns of bringing two CBs into the EPL at the same time.

I never shared this belief - the results support my initial belief and not yours. I was optimistic no doubt, but nothing more.

You were optimistic about them winning. Based on wat?

We are getting distracted here - those players are higher quality players than the Arsenal equivalents, that is the crux of the matter. In terms of their title and league winning experience and year in year out consistent performances, they are better than the Arsenal lads when the whole squad is examined.

Your arguement was we had the best midfield. Are you changing your mind?

You would take Bendtner and Chamakh over Berba, a player who has averaged above 15 goals a season in the EPL for 4 seasons before the current season?

Chamakh was coming fresh into the EPL - no way of judging what he would do, same with Chicharito to an extent. While I might have taken Bendtner over Chicharito because of EPL experience, I would not have taken Chamakh over an EPL proven Berbatov with title winning experience.

Based on Berba's performance the prvious season, I would have taken Chamakh over him. Even United fans wanted didn't want him after the 2009/2010 season.

Let's go with that assumption for a moment. If that is when quality is relevant, our performance against those 15, relative to the top 4 sides was the poorest. That is direct evidence that we have lower quality compared to our rivals because, when faced with the same 15 teams, they outperformed us.

Why are u twisting things nah, I said on paper, and I have repeated over and over again that unfortunately, we did not transform expectations into results. Even you agree you were optimistic of us winning. At least there was a reason you didn't cower at the multi million signings at Chelsea and ManU. You were still able to be optimistic about us winning. Or was it just blind optimism?

This has nothing to do with grammar bro - do a word search on RVP's comments in that article. Ambition comes up 0 times.

It can be explained in a myriad of ways - one way is the club has/had a financial or organisational handicap which prevents it from buying the type of players to match its ambitions.

We don't have the funds of Citeh or Chelski, neither do we have the financial clout of Utd in terms of commercial deals.

loool, u claim ambition comes up zero times yet you go on to make assumptions on finances, etc Did they come up at all in his comments?

That is a poor analogy. A better one would be a student who wants to come first in class, but because he cannot afford the textbooks, he comes up short.

To surmise, the inability to buy the world class players we need, as demonstrated by our squad's relative deficiency, is Arsenal's undoing at the moment.

Yes I did say that, which in ambition terms means, even if we desire to come first, without the building blocks, we will come short.

Are you then saying that as long as we don't get the 'world class players we need' we won't win anything?

This poo is funny
[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGMUJKS9NYw&feature=player_embedded[/flash]

debosky:

No one is begrudging 's achievement in the UEFA Cup. However, it was the only bright spot in a club on the decline.

Which is more than anything Wenger has achieved and didnt spend 15yrs to achieve it.

As anyone will tell you, the best measure of a side is its final placement in the league table.

The best measure of a side is their performance in Europe not the local league. E.g Celtic, Rangers,

Fact is that we were averaging finishing 7th and went to winning doubles with Wenger.

Fact is that within 6yrs, won a league and a continental trophy while Arsene has been trophyless for 6yrs and counting

Arsenal is a big club without a doubt, so is Newcastle.

Before wenger came to wreck it, Newcastle won a European trophy when?

Wenger is the problem and has won the most trophies with Arsenal? That doesn't sound right to me - the issues are at board level.

Wenger has won the most trophies because he has spent the most time.

in 9yrs won 2 league titles, Wenger in 15yrs won 3. Do the ratio. Now won a continental title and lost a final, Wenger? Fill in the gap

Other coaches are perfecting how to out muscle opponent next season WenGAY and his ediots are perfecting on Chinko Lingo. What is wrong with this man? He is not even ashamed to be stupid on camera. Haba!!!!

dayokanu:

Wenger has won the most trophies because he has spent the most time.

in 9yrs won 2 league titles, Wenger in 15yrs won 3. Do the ratio. Now won a continental title and lost a final, Wenger? Fill in the gap

He cant do the math. Its too complex for him to understand. Wenger is his saviour so he should stay forever.

People is Arsenal going to allow Maarten Stekelenburg pass us by & still prefer Almunia, Lehmann & Fabianski?

He has one year remaining in his contract & Szczesny can be his understudy.

dayokanu:


If the bold was true then they should be performing better in European compatition. Wengers Arsenal have never won a continental title

That means his game does not suit England does not suit Europe maybe "monkey post" or 5 a side

european competition is a knock out format. . . .which means a careless loss = elimination. the league is different! one can lose 5-6 games and still win the league. arsenal have beaten several european teams in the past to justify my claim that they are good enough to win top european leagues with their style of play.

coogar:

european competition is a knock out format. . . .which means a careless loss = elimination. the league is different! one can lose 5-6 games and still win the league. arsenal have beaten several european teams in the past to justify my claim that they are good enough to win top european leagues with their style of play.

The measure of a good side is how well you do in a knockout competition, Beating several European opposition doesnt justify that they are good enough.

I remember West Ham in one season beat almost all the top teams yet barely escaped relegation. West ham beating man Utd home and away that season doesnt mean they can win the league.

Rubin Kazan beating Barcelona doesnt mean they can win the CL or they are the best.

For a team that has played the competition for that many years you would have such wins here and there.

Arsenal as long as Arsene is their coach cant win any of the top European league and cant win any European title

dayokanu:

The measure of a good side is how well you do in a knockout competition, Beating several European opposition doesnt justify that they are good enough.

contradiction. arsenal have beaten big european giants in europe. . . .inter milan, ac milan, sevilla, juventus, porto, real madrid, etc.

I remember West Ham in one season beat almost all the top teams yet barely escaped relegation. West ham beating man Utd home and away that season doesnt mean they can win the league.

any team can fluke it to the cup final and win. a team has to be good to win the league. the measure of a good side is how well they do in a 38-match league system. a system where everyone in it faces the same competition.

Rubin Kazan beating Barcelona doesnt mean they can win the CL or they are the best.
For a team that has played the competition for that many years you would have such wins here and there.

these wins aren't just against minnows. arsenal have punished big teams in europe - a fact you are aware of.

Arsenal as long as Arsene is their coach cant win any of the top European league and cant win any European title

they could win it next season.

proudly9ja:

Ofcourse, I have never said we were perfect last season. I think I have over harped on the 'relative' issue since this arguement began. I don tire.
You were optimistic about them winning. Based on wat?

Based on the fact that every new season there is optimism about potentially winning something, not necessarily the league. I felt our squad was better than the previous season, hence there was potential to win.

Your arguement was we had the best midfield. Are you changing your mind?

No change - on a squad basis, others have better teams.

Based on Berba's performance the prvious season, I would have taken Chamakh over him. Even United fans wanted didn't want him after the 2009/2010 season.

Dunno about Utd fans not wanting him, more like they wanted more from him.

Why are u twisting things nah, I said on paper, and I have repeated over and over again that unfortunately, we did not transform expectations into results. Even you agree you were optimistic of us winning. At least there was a reason you didn't cower at the multi million signings at Chelsea and ManU. You were still able to be optimistic about us winning. Or was it just blind optimism?

I was optimistic about the season, not necessarily winning the league.

loool, u claim ambition comes up zero times yet you go on to make assumptions on finances, etc Did they come up at all in his comments?
Are you then saying that as long as we don't get the 'world class players we need' we won't win anything?

I am making no assumptions - RVP says we need signings and you need money to make signings not so?

We need to improve the squad else we won't win - that is the stark reality. Other teams are improving themselves with signings, so it is not rocket science to figure out that if you stand still and others move forward, you'll end up further behind.

dayokanu:

Which is more than anything Wenger has achieved and didnt spend 15yrs to achieve it.

did not face Abramovich's billions, nor Citeh's Arab lucre. The comparison in that sense is irrational. The only period that can be reasonably compared with is the period between 97 and 2004, before Abramovich's billions started kicking in.

The best measure of a side is their performance in Europe not the local league. E.g Celtic, Rangers,

Wrong - we are talking about one of the strongest leagues in Europe and not minnow leagues.

Fact is that within 6yrs, won a league and a continental trophy while Arsene has been trophyless for 6yrs and counting

The fact is that within 97-2004, Arsene won 3 titles and 3 FA cups. In the period since, Arsenal has had to grapple with a financial constraints associated with building the stadium, the effects of which are still being felt due to the long term commercial deals negotiated years ago.

in 9yrs won 2 league titles, Wenger in 15yrs won 3. Do the ratio. Now won a continental title and lost a final, Wenger? Fill in the gap

I repeat, the period 2005-2011 cannot be compared to any other in the history of English football. The sheer amount of money that is available to rivals in the league is such that the competition to win is unprecedented.

While there are legitimate reasons to demand more from Wenger and his side, the unassailable truth is that, compared to his rivals, the expenditure gap is telling.

coogar:

contradiction. arsenal have beaten big european giants in europe. . . .inter milan, ac milan, sevilla, juventus, porto, real madrid, etc.

Beating big sides doesnt mean you can go the full lenght and win it. Winning a knockout competition requires a lot. Barcelona is the best side in Europe for the past few yrs and they have shown it with their dominance in the CL. If a team comes yearly to the CL they would have beaten some teams .

Rubin Kazan once beat Barcelona

any team can fluke it to the cup final and win. a team has to be good to win the league. the measure of a good side is how well they do in a 38-match league system. a system where everyone in it faces the same competition.

Can you fluke a home and away elimination of all the top teams from different leagues playing different styles?

these wins aren't just against minnows. arsenal have punished big teams in europe - a fact you are aware of.

Almost every team that has been regular in the CL would say this. even Copenhagen and CFR Cluj would say they have punished big teams before never mind a Lyon

they could win it next season.

Repeat every 12 months

Enough of the arguments. . . .I present you with Komrade Emmanuel Eboue - Live in Lagos!

[img]http://api.ning.com/files/WnYJsJqeiezl7ZEsv3msuDJVTCAvY3-g-cJb5PavnYsXy4vTU2Bog1pkVdKjpaL*J1drw*51BiUoxgnyUI*UMiy8f5sMlT3J/Kanustestimonialmatch14.jpg?width=461&height=600[/img]

debosky:

did not face Abramovich's billions, nor Citeh's Arab lucre. The comparison in that sense is irrational. The only period that can be reasonably compared with is the period between 97 and 2004, before Abramovich's billions started kicking in.

Mor0nic to say the least, every era had its challenges, I am sure Wenger didnt face the Heysel ban which made every top European player to avoid the EPL, He didnt face the era where tackle from behind were legal, He didnt face the era where EPL clubs were the least sought destinations in European football

Wrong - we are talking about one of the strongest leagues in Europe and not minnow leagues.

Winning a league only makes you  local champ like Blackburn, Arsenal, Lyon, Wolfsburg, Roma and Deportivo. Not many people reckoned with Inter until they won the CL

The fact is that within 97-2004, Arsene won 3 titles and 3 FA cups. In the period since, Arsenal has had to grapple with a financial constraints associated with building the stadium, the effects of which are still being felt due to the long term commercial deals negotiated years ago.

Graham had to grapple with the Heysel ban which made every top European player to avoid the EPL, He didnt face the era where tackle from behind were legal, He didnt face the era where EPL clubs were the least sought destinations in European football.

The rest na story story. Bayern built a stadium and still remained top

I repeat, the period 2005-2011 cannot be compared to any other in the history of English football. The sheer amount of money that is available to rivals in the league is such that the competition to win is unprecedented.

Mor0nic point again. Pre 2004, clubs have been making big money buys purchases .  The Zidane world record of 8yrs wasnt broken till 2 yrs ago.

Between your 2005 and 2009 no club was able to break the  transfer fee paid for Zidane, Figo, Crespo, Vieiri, Denilson and Ronaldo Lima.

While there are legitimate reasons to demand more from Wenger and his side, the unassailable truth is that, compared to his rivals, the expenditure gap is telling.

The expenditure gap between FC Porto and the rest of Europe too was high yet they won the CL, The expenditure gap between Liverpool in 2005 and the rest of Europe was telling yet they won, the expenditure,

Simply put Wenger is a failure

So George Graham is the best thing since sliced moi moi?

How come he's left footie management?

The Heysel ban had been lifted for 5 years by the time won the UEFA cup, so it can't be taken as a factor.

What is this rubbish about tackles being legal? Are you high on weed or what? Everyone was affected by the tackling rules, so it has nothing to do with this discourse.

Mor0nic point again. Pre 2004, clubs have been making big money buys purchases . The Zidane world record of 8yrs wasnt broken till 2 yrs ago.

Between your 2005 and 2009 no club was able to break the transfer fee paid for Zidane, Figo, Crespo, Vieiri, Denilson and Ronaldo Lima.

What a dolt - is the transfer record the issue here or the volume of expenditure on transfers? Arsenal's transfer expenditure has been negative for most of this period while others have spent hundreds of millions over that period.

The expenditure gap between FC Porto and the rest of Europe too was high yet they won the CL, The expenditure gap between Liverpool in 2005 and the rest of Europe was telling yet they won, the expenditure,

Those are clearly one-offs. Liverpool's subsequent troubles have shown them to be so. As for Porto, they deserve credit; however it is instructive to note that they only won in a year when they faced Monaco of all teams in the final - that was also an exceptional CL season.

When overall trends are looked at (not outliers or anomalies), the winners are often big spenders - Real, Barca, Utd have all been big spenders and continue to be big spenders.